Catagnaris & concert pitch

[triplet]

Learned Colleagues

Is it me, or are Castagnaris generally slightly flat of concert??  I want to order a new one but am wondering if I will need to specify that I want A at 440.

What do you think?

[Theo]

I've never had one in the workshop that was flat of concert pitch.  I have seen one or two that were tuned a little higher for example to A=441 or 442Hz.

[Rees]

I agree with Theo. I've never had a flat one.

[Falseknight]

What do you mean by flat? (no, not a stupid question).

Because of the way we perceive tuning, what notes are tuned to is always a compromise.  Equally tempered tuning (what orchestral instruments are supposed to work to) is, compared to the natural harmonic series inaccurate - note that good violinists, etc.  play a different d# to Eb depending on the harmonic series they are playing in.  There are various compromises to equally tempered tuning to cope with this.  Pianos are not tund with a strobe tuner to a mathematical formula, but with a skilled ear which generally tunes the high notes marginally sharp, and the low notes marginally flat.  This is why cheap electronic keyboards do not fully sound like the real thing and expensive ones have complex algorithms to emulate this.

Left to their own devices, frets players will generally tune the higher strings slightly sharp for the same reason.  You would not notice it without a good ear or a very accurate tuner.  Note that not all tuners are accurate.  I have been known to go round groups of musicians and INSIST they eacuse the  same one.

Are reeds tuned to mathematical, equally tempered correctness, to a corrected algorithm or to the tasts of a skilled ear.

[Rees]

Factory tuned boxes are usually tuned to equal temperament. You just specify the amount of swing.
i.e. A = 440 +5, A = 440 +10, etc.

Any adjustment to that would need to made by your friendly local accordion tuner.

Therefore by flat we mean something less than A=440. i.e. A=338.

[Pushpull]

Therefore by flat we mean something less than A=440. i.e. A=338.

338? AKA "Flat as a F**t"?

[triplet]

I haven't checked it with an oscilloscope or anything, it's just that when strings tune up to their little electronic tuners, they then have to go down a notch if I'm using a casti. It doesn't happen with any other box.  It's very painful to the ear if they don't!  This happens particularly with my B/C, which is tuned very dry (5 cents tops).

I've also heard it said that Maureen Linnane's one is quite flat too.

[Rees]

Oops sorry, senior moment. I meant A=438.

Interesting to hear of this flat phenomenon. Have you checked your box against the string players tuning gadgets?

The opposite occurs with my Castagnari which has a tremolo wider than my van. It makes all the string players sound flat.
Yeah, result!

[Rob2Hook]

As someone has already said, those little tuners are probably not very accurate!  Of course any discrepancy will show up more with a dry tuned box as the strings can happily lose themselves in the tremolo otherwise.  I would be more worried if the pianist queried the tuning of my box!  So far it hasn't happened with a Castagnari, even my aridly dry tuned Trilly.  With the Pokerwork though if a guitarist asks for a note to tune to, I play a single note and tell him to take his pick.

[Dazbo]

My understanding (from t'internet) is that if two reeds are tuned apart, say 440 and 450 the human ear tends to hear the note as 445.  Is it possible that your Castagnari has been tuned 440 and 435 for example?

[Rees]

that's possible, dazbo.

[Falseknight]

I thought that reed tunings were always tuned to pitch and sharp of pitch - only three reeds (and more) tuned sharp, pitch, flat.

[BruceHenderson]

  Learned Colleagues
Is it me, or are Castagnaris generally slightly flat of concert??  I want to order a new one but am wondering if I will need to specify that I want A at 440.
What do you think?   

   My experience with Hitaly is that you need to specify *everthing* ... unless you like "surprizes"!

BH NC USA

[BruceHenderson]

  I thought that reed tunings were always tuned to pitch and sharp of pitch - only three reeds (and more) tuned sharp, pitch, flat. 

    It's becoming pretty common in French Canada these days to tune 220/438/443/880 for example.  (Note there's a logrithmic thing going on ... the lower number is fewer Hz from the "middle" -- in this case 440 -- than the upper number).  The thought is that your ear hears A-220/A-440/A-800 and it all sounds "in tune".  I dunno if it's all true like that but it sure sounds good.

BH NC USA

[IanD]

  I thought that reed tunings were always tuned to pitch and sharp of pitch - only three reeds (and more) tuned sharp, pitch, flat. 

    It's becoming pretty common in French Canada these days to tune 220/438/443/880 for example.  (Note there's a logrithmic thing going on ... the lower number is fewer Hz from the "middle" -- in this case 440 -- than the upper number).  The thought is that your ear hears A-220/A-440/A-800 and it all sounds "in tune".  I dunno if it's all true like that but it sure sounds good.

BH NC USA

It's a pity that most 2-reed boxes without stops are still tuned as if they're 2 reeds from a 3-reed or 4-reed box - in other words, one at concert pitch and one sharp. Since the ear hears the average pitch of the two reeds, this means that not only is the right hand out of tune with the left hand (because it's sharp) but other musical instruments, and right-hand octaves are not true either.

For many years now all my 2-reed boxes have been tuned with one reed sharp and one reed flat (2Hz each in my case since that's what I prefer -- in other words constant beat rate in Hz over the whole range, not constant in cents). Other instrument players have on numerous occasions made unprompted comments like "Hey, your melodeon sounds in tune with my ******, that doesn't usually happen" -- also quite a few box players have also switched to this tuning having heard what it sounds like.

Nils Neilsen said that this used to be (maybe 50 years ago?) called Viennese tuning and was popular for exactly the reasons I've said, but maybe it fell out of fashion due to the rise in popularity of bigger 3-reed and 4-reed boxes with stops where you then haven't got a mid-pitched reed in concert pitch. He did mention that he found it a pain to tune (probably because I think he still uses an old Stroboconn tuner) because neither reed is in concert pitch, but I wouldn't have thought this is a problem with a modern electronic tuner.

Ian

P.S. When I told Theo I'd like my Preciosa tuned like this he said "Oh, you mean Dedic tuning :-)" so hopefully word is spreading -- you never know, maybe one day we might end up with an entire session of in-tune-sounding melodeons :-)

[Québécois]

<...>  I dunno if it's all true like that but it sure sounds good.

That's the important thing! I guess... No need for a fancy sound frequency analyzer, just the good old ears!