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[Thrupenny Bit]

Supression also includes realisation that perhaps they aren't god's gift to the folk world 
.... yes a Himalayan venture is required, or the alternative therapy often applied down here which requires many times rinsing of the brain cells until forgetfulness intervenes making them mere mortals 

As you rightly say, if it's a public session then it should be just that, open to all mortals.
Q

[Gromit]

outside the Pale

Probably not the best terminology to use in this context.

[forrest]

 Having read thru this thread so far, some points seem to emerge re. Sessions:   

   Everyone wants to play their favorite tunes together with a group.
   Some want to showcase their abilities
   Some are there to learn new tunes, or tips to improve the ones they know
   Some are there to present something new, or novel
   Some are there to park and listen

   When a medium to large group comes together, perhaps unknown to one another, having differing backgrounds, abilities and expectations, then it seems a rather large conflict of interests could ensue.
  I think Frank's notion of the "Tune Swap" is one step toward unravelling the emotional knot that occurs when all the energies run to cross purposes. By setting up an orderly presentation, the domination of the activity could be minimized. Everyone would have an alloted time limit to present, with a small time for discussion, then on to the next. Interested parties could confer privately on detail.

 This could lead to a 'slow jam' type of activity where an interested group could form to learn the tune and it's subleties. Or multiple tunes...

The Session, of course, would remain the free-for-all that it is, with the idea that if it was too intimidating or unfamiliar for some players, there would be the previous set of nurturing activities that they could take advantage of to bring up their abilities. This notion would also imply that there would be more advanced players out there willing to lend a hand with some instruction from time to time.
 

[Howard Jones]

The role of a session leader is to get the session started, make sure people have an opportunity to start tunes, and keep things going if there is a lull.   However, when a well-known band, or individual, is programmed to lead a session at a festival many people turn up expecting to hear them play and hoping to be able to join in with them.  In these situations I feel it is appropriate for the band to take the lead a little more often than might normally be the case when leading a session.  However they should not take it over and turn it into a concert, and neither should they exclude others from joining in, either by their attitude, speed or persistently playing obscure tunes.

Ian and Panjandrum, being experienced and sensitive musicians, would obviously understand this.  The other band clearly did not.

[oggiesnr]

The best led session I've been to this year was a Danish tunes session at Beverley lead by Habadeduk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxR6H2_dzRY).  They took three of the tunes that they performed and led us through each tune phrase by phrase explaining how it all went together, rhythms etc.  We then played through the tune before going on to the next one.  To finish the sssion we then played them through as per their show arrangements with the different instruments being highlighted.  Great fun.

I enjoyed it all the more as I was playing bass that day so their bass player took me in hand and we worked through his arrangements.

I got the impression that although it might have seemed a bit more formal than most sessions everyone got something out of it because we were all included and had a chance to learn, not just left to sink or swim.

Steve

[Graham Spencer]

Personally I wouldn't go to a session led by a band; it seems to me to fly in the face of what a session should be.  I went to one once at Whitby many years ago and it was just pointless, what with the huge number of people and the lack of anywhere to sit. I stayed about 5 minutes.

[Bob Ellis]

The best led session I've been to this year was a Danish tunes session at Beverley lead by Habadeduk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxR6H2_dzRY).  They took three of the tunes that they performed and led us through each tune phrase by phrase explaining how it all went together, rhythms etc.  We then played through the tune before going on to the next one.  To finish the sssion we then played them through as per their show arrangements with the different instruments being highlighted.  Great fun.

I enjoyed it all the more as I was playing bass that day so their bass player took me in hand and we worked through his arrangements.

I got the impression that although it might have seemed a bit more formal than most sessions everyone got something out of it because we were all included and had a chance to learn, not just left to sink or swim.

Steve

I also enjoy this kind of event, but from the description of it (I wasn't there, so it is all I have to go on), it sounds as though it was more of a workshop than a session.

[Bob Ellis]

There are all kinds of different sessions catering for different tastes both in terms of the type of music played and the way in which it is played, so it is dangerous to generalise......but I have always been a thrill-seeker, so here goes!

People attend sessions to meet up with like-minded friends, to join in with others playing tunes they know (or half-know), to discover new tunes that, hopefully, they will be able to learn either during the session or (more likely) after they have gone home and found the tune on the internet, and to listen to other people playing tunes that they enjoy hearing but have little desire to play. There are other reasons, but I suspect these are the main ones for most people.

To my mind, a good session is one that addresses all the aforementioned, preferably without too much intervention from the session leaders. Our view in the Loose Knit Band when running our nightly sessions during Sidmouth Folk Week is that we should kick things off with a couple of well-known tunes and then let others take the lead, making sure that nobody dominates to the exclusion of others. We also try to ensure that there is a balance of standards where everyone can join in and less well-known tunes that might be started by one or two musicians, with others either joining in as they begin to hear the pattern of the tune or simply enjoying listening.

We like to encourage players of quiet instruments, like mandolins and hammer dulicmers. In a large session that often has over fifty musicians, there is a danger that players of quiet instruments won't get a look-in, so, having ascertained with a quiet word that they would like to do so, we ask for quiet at a suitable point so that such players have the chance to start a tune. We also try to identify those who lack confidence and/or experience so that one of us can ask them quietly if they would like to start something and then give them the space to do so. If they don't feel comfortable starting a tune, we ask them what tunes they know and start those tunes for them (provided we know them!), so that they can join in.

Variety and sensitivity to the needs and wishes of others is, I think, the key to success. Judging by the numbers who attend our sessions, I think we must be doing something right!

[Graham Spencer]

That sounds like a good way to go to me. Fifty people is a big session, but you seem to have it sorted. I guess a regular session for its own sake (which is what I assume yours is) is probably a different animal from a session in a festival programme led by a "guest" band.

[Howard Jones]

Personally I wouldn't go to a session led by a band; it seems to me to fly in the face of what a session should be.  I went to one once at Whitby many years ago and it was just pointless, what with the huge number of people and the lack of anywhere to sit. I stayed about 5 minutes.

A session with a huge number of people and nowhere to sit is going to be problematic irrespective of who is running it.

It may not attract you, but a number of people seem to like to have the opportunity to sit in with a well-known band and play along with some of the sets they've heard the band play elsewhere at the festival.  It shouldn't become just a performance by the band, and first and foremost they should be facilitating other people to play, but at the same time they should remember that some people have gone to listen to, and play with, the band.  As with everything, it's a question of getting the right balance, but I suggest it is a situation where the band might take the lead slightly more than might otherwise be the case.

[Graham Spencer]

I quite agree; the fact that it doesn't appeal to me doesn't affect its validity or mean there aren't loads of people to whom it does appeal - and good luck to 'em. It's simply my personal opinion - I happen to like small to medium size sessions (not too small - there's a limit to what you can do with 3 people!) and chance to swap tunes and talk about where they came from, how they developed and so on. One man's meat.....

[Howard Jones]

GPS, I agree, but the size of the session is a different matter from who is running it.

It is inevitable that programmed sessions at festivals are likely to be larger than is desirable.  Nevertheless, the best session I have ever participated in was at festival (Beverley), and was one led by a band (as it happens, it was my then band the Electropathics, but that's not the reason it sticks in my memory).  It was a fairly large session too, but made up of very competent and, more importantly, sensitive musicians who were willing listen to what other players were doing and able pick up and develop their ideas.  It was, quite simply, a superb and very laid-back afternoon which carried on long after the programmed finishing time, and was finally brought to an end by a <insert orifice of choice> of a piano accordion player who walked in and decided it needed "livening up".  Fortunately it was coming to its natural end by then, and we all packed up and left him to it.  More than 25 years later it still lingers in my memory.

[malcolmbebb]

...We also try to ensure that there is a balance of standards where everyone can join in and less well-known tunes that might be started by one or two musicians, with others either joining in as they begin to hear the pattern of the tune or simply enjoying listening.

... We also try to identify those who lack confidence and/or experience so that one of us can ask them quietly if they would like to start something and then give them the space to do so. If they don't feel comfortable starting a tune, we ask them what tunes they know and start those tunes for them (provided we know them!), so that they can join in.

There were a couple of organised sessions at Dartmoor FF, one led by Gareth Kiddier and Nina Hansen, the other led by All Blacked Up fronted by Baz, of this parish, which I thought came pretty close to the above. I didn't play much but was given the opportunity, and in both the emphasis was on giving everyone a fair crack of the whip rather than airing their own tunes.

[Stiamh]

Not taking sides here, you all understand, but I don't mind admitting that decades ago a) for quite some time I played Irish music badly enough to annoy those who knew better but who indulged me and straightened me out (with hints gentle and less gentle) and b) later I was in an Irish band who, if asked to lead a session at a festival where people from other traditions were milling around, might well have behaved in a manner akin to the one in Ian's nightmare session.

If we'd been sitting close enough maybe we would have heard them talking among themselves... maybe the hushed asides went like this:

- Hmm, dunno what this is going to be like. Not many people here into the music.
- Yeah they're all into English stuff.
- English? What's that when it's at home?
- Davy Davy bloody Knick Knack and Bobby effin Shaftoe.
- Don't know any of that stuff.
- I do but I really don't want to play any of it today.
- Look lads, they've asked us to lead this session, so obviously Irish tunes is what they want. Let's get stuck in
[They get stuck in]
- Don't look now but a whole bunch of melodeons just sat down behind you.
- God there's that bloke who plays with one of the Morris teams.
- What about him?
- He's OK - well, if you like that sort of stuff - but he's LOUD.
- If we don't watch out they'll bloody well take over.
- Start another set quick!
- Oh Lord he's off. Rumpty-tumpty rumpty-tumpty - aaargh!
- They're all bloody joining in!  Torture!
- They didn't join in with any of our sets.
- Well they don't know the tunes do they?
- Why did they come to our session then?
- Thank god that's over. Quick lads, into the Finbarr Dwyer set... and Jim have another one ready to go into as soon as we stop. Maybe they'll get the hint and take their infernal machines somewhere else.

As I said, I'm not taking sides, not defending anyone, not attacking anyone. Just musing... 

[Bob Ellis]

Isn't leading a session all about trying to provide what people who are attending want rather than providing what the leaders want?

[mory]

Lots of internal rule books and rule makers, very intersting, but......   

[Theo]

Ideally a session should be a musical conversation among a group of friends, as soon as it is "led" or in other ways organised, or when it gets too big to sustain the feel of a conversation then it becomes something much different, and will appeal to different people.

[LDbosca]

Isn't leading a session all about trying to provide what people who are attending want rather than providing what the leaders want?

It all depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

For example, I used to do a (session) gig one night a week that was attended by beginners (in standard, not necessarily time playing) where I was the sole melody player paid to be there. The crowd who attended were there for years before I took over the gig so I made sure to start appropriate tunes at an appropriate speed and prop up peoples' attempts at starting tunes; this was the dynamic of the situation.

At my regular session (at which m'self and two friends are the musicians paid) we play any tunes we like and transpose etc. if we feel like it. We start the majority of sets but people we know will start a few and we might ask a visiting musician to start a set if it seems appropriate. The musicians who attend know enough of our tunes to play along a lot of the time and often pick up the new additions to our repertoire, as we do from them sometimes. We aim to maintain a suitable standard of music that keeps the session interesting for good musicians who wish to attend. If we don't do that then (from experience) good musicians attending drop off and we end up stuck working against bad players and being miserable for 3 hours every week. Why should we do that? We're not charity workers and we've worked hard to get where we are musically. We've played music on our own in the place until it has gained popularity and so it's our domain and responsibility.

The flipside of all this is that when I go to a session I only start a set if I'm asked and just play along otherwise. This, to me, is a positive as it makes sure you've a different musical experience to usual and makes you revive old tunes, learn new ones etc. It can make you play in a completely different way to normal re: rhythm, pace etc. too, which is great. It's also nice to be forced to just listen. I think people need to learn that not being able to start ones own sets is a brilliant experience.

Recently, a man who was (obviously) relatively new to the tin whistle came in and started about 7 or 8 items that he could hardly play and that weren't appropriate to the session; while it is important not to discourage a learner, it is important for someone like this to learn that this isn't ok; playing music in sessions is a form of socialization and the only way to ever enjoy it fully is to become socialized in it, i.e. learn that certain things are appropriate in some situations and not others.

[Bob Ellis]

Ideally a session should be a musical conversation among a group of friends, as soon as it is "led" or in other ways organised, or when it gets too big to sustain the feel of a conversation then it becomes something much different, and will appeal to different people.

I like the idea of "a musical conversation among a group of friends". The phrase sums up a certain kind of session admirably well and I take great pleasure in that kind of session.

However, there are session - especially at festivals - where someone is designated as the 'leader' (for the want of a better word). In such cases, I think that it is incumbent on that person (or those persons) to consider the interests of those attending that session. The sessions that George leads at Whitby are perfect examples of this. Their success, in my opinion, lies primarily in the fact that George encourages the playing of tunes that are within the compass of those attending rather than just playing what appeals to him.

[Chris Ryall]

One of the best regular sessions I've frequented was at the pub at the back of Manchester Airport. Being well connectded it attracted travellers (including me), piper Adrian Schoefield from Bury way, concertina  player Chris Jordan from Jodrel. No-one felt any need to show off, apart from Adrians'  Northumbrian rants all was  steady and considered. Sadly like all good things .. the landlord changed

What is the point, well my non musical neighbour, a long time friend used to come along. Though he's liked folk music from his teens, he didn't last. "I feel out of it" "there's a conversation between you and I can't be part of it".