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Author Topic: Slipping left hand  (Read 6343 times)

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BJG

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Slipping left hand
« on: August 30, 2013, 07:12:21 PM »

I find that even with the strap set to the tightest setting on my Sandpiper, my left hand still slips under the weight. The natural tendency is to slip to the far right, where it's impossible to reach everything comfortably. I'm wondering whether I should be flexing the hand or wrist in a way to maintain pressure, as it were (though I'm slightly wary of playing in a way that might risk any kind of long-term strain), or possibly wearing fingerless gloves or something. Is this a common problem for beginners? (The only other melodeon/accordion I've ever played was a Farfisa Transicord, and I felt the range of adjustment on that was too short as well. There never seems to be much leeway.)
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Strigulino

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 07:18:36 PM »

I had the same problem with my skinny lady hands and a Morgane.  Eventually resorted to making a pad for the strap and a quite awkward-looking position using my first two fingers to play and my little finger to brace against the strap; I find it quite comfortable though.

You find a way.
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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 07:25:23 PM »

I personally am from the hand flexing school mainly because I have many melodeons and they are all different. But you may need to adjust the length of the strap if flexing does not take up enough slack, normally done by undoing one end (I prefer the lower end for tidiness's sake) and making sone new holes. If you do this only move the holes a small amount as the effect is quire pronounced.

Some on mel.net have made a small loop strap that attaches to the bottom screw fixings and is made to hold the hand in the correct position.

See here

pikey

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 08:28:31 PM »

I flex and brace my Hand.

Bu my Lilliput has a neat strap loop fastened to the bottom of the bass end strap, we reckon its to put your wrist through to stop the slip. Might be worth a try. It's a strip of soft leather, about 2 inches wide, screwed using the same screws as the bottom of the bass end strap, it comes nearly half way up the bass end. Let me know if you'd like a photo.
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Roger Howard

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 08:53:34 PM »

http://diato.org/trucs/sangle.htm#1

The link shows Bernard Loffet's suggestion for solving the problem. In French, I fear, but with photos which show you his answer to the difficulty.

Hope it's of some help.

Best wishes

Roger
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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 10:28:23 PM »

I would definitely not advise trying to tighten the bass strap so tight that it holds your hand in there with no play ... attempting to use the bass buttons and the air button with such a tight strap will make it hard to both reach the basses you want and give you cramp in your hand due to the angles your fingers will have to be at.

In order to keep the strap taut with some space for movement your left hand should throw a shape similar to that if you were trying to hold a grapefruit with the hand.  Curved - but not strained in any way ... with a bit of practice this shape will allow you to play without any risks and for your hand to stay in position firmly.
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Myra Cassar

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 11:41:03 PM »

At Whitby, a man showed me how he uses a chunk of blue tack to keep his left hand from slipping through the strap. It seems to work!
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Lester

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2013, 07:52:34 AM »

At Whitby, a man showed me how he uses a chunk of blue tack to keep his left hand from slipping through the strap. It seems to work!

I sat next to him in a session at Whitby, guess it worked for him.

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2013, 10:15:37 AM »

A slipping left hand can also mean that you are trying to play with the instrument held at the wrong angle. If you have small hands and you also try to maintain a bellows position which is nearly horizontal, it is almost inevitable that the end of the instrument will drop down, causing your hand to slip upwards.

You need to exploit the gravity situation to your advantage: it is perfectly acceptable to have the left-hand end of the instrument drooping downwards - see my avatar photo. In this position, gravity helps extend the bellows for you on the pull; and when pushing the bellows, the increased pressure and friction of the hand on the bass plate means that it is less liable to slip upwards. If you get this right, there is normally no need for fancy, complex extra straps, loops and pads (or blue-tac :o ), even if you have small hands.

You still need the LH strap adjusted to an optimum position though. Too loose and your hand will slip anyway; too tight and you risk cramps and other aches and pains as well as not being able to reach the buttons properly.
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BJG

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2013, 10:41:16 AM »

Thanks for all the pointers. That's very helpful Steve...just before reading that I was thinking that my problem was partly due to trying to draw the bellows straight out horizontally, and I was starting to wonder if I should be drawing them out in more of an arc, so that the top opens more than the bottom. However, there's also the idea of holding the whole instrument at a slight angle which I hadn't considered.
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Peter G

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 09:54:27 PM »

Hi BJG
I have this problem occasionally with my Castaganari Tommy, tho not with the Pokerwork. I concluded that the problem was  a combination of heavier bass en and smooth wooden surface. I found it was worse after washing up, due to drier hands. No jokes about fairies please! problem solved by different position of bass end as suggested by Steve (but not nearly as extreme) and licking hand before playing - just gives enough 'stick'! Lots on previous threads about pattern of opening and closing bellows but certainly as a beginner I wasted a lot of time trying to learn bellows movement before I realised you can open and close it by simply flicking the wrist. Others more experienced will no doubt give you more guidance but I consider it very important to develop the skill of opening and closing the bellows by using wrist and elbow movement rather than (but also including) pulling with the shoulder. keep on going - the joy of progress with this amazing instrument repays the time spent many time over.
Pete (still learning!)  :||:
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BJG

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 09:23:40 AM »

I wasted a lot of time trying to learn bellows movement before I realised you can open and close it by simply flicking the wrist. Others more experienced will no doubt give you more guidance but I consider it very important to develop the skill of opening and closing the bellows by using wrist and elbow movement rather than (but also including) pulling with the shoulder.

(Thanks for the tip - I haven't given any thought to that yet, so I'll check out the old posts.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 09:25:56 AM by BJG »
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boxer

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 04:43:08 PM »

On some of my boxes I've stuck a small panel of self-adhesive cork onto the l/h end plate where the palm of my left hand touches the surface.  It gives a bit of grip and reduces the amount of movement that takes place to manageable levels without tightening the strap unduly.

The cork is the kind of stuff wood tuners stick on the bottom of table lamps and such to protect polished table tops.  You can get it from woodworkers' suppliers.
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 04:58:24 PM »

I've read all of this thread, and it strikes me that if your left hand is slipping then you are not using the bellows correctly.  You need a fairly tight strap but you still need to be able to use your wrist.
I found a similar problem with my huge Hohner Eb/Bb, using my knee to bring the basses back into position. Not good. Cured by being careful on angle of bellows pull, and strap tension.
The idea of adhesive, cork shouldn't be necessary. Get the strap tension right and think about bellows angle. I think that is the way forward.
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Etienne

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 05:21:43 PM »

http://diato.org/trucs/sangle.htm#1

The link shows Bernard Loffet's suggestion for solving the problem. In French, I fear, but with photos which show you his answer to the difficulty.

Hope it's of some help.

Best wishes

Roger

I used this solution for some months when i began the  melodeon, and now my hand stay in place even with a big and heavy bass side or a loose bass strap (or both  8)).
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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 03:51:39 PM »

I find that even with the strap set to the tightest setting on my Sandpiper, my left hand still slips under the weight. The natural tendency is to slip to the far right, where it's impossible to reach everything comfortably. I'm wondering whether I should be flexing the hand or wrist in a way to maintain pressure, as it were (though I'm slightly wary of playing in a way that might risk any kind of long-term strain), or possibly wearing fingerless gloves or something. Is this a common problem for beginners? (The only other melodeon/accordion I've ever played was a Farfisa Transicord, and I felt the range of adjustment on that was too short as well. There never seems to be much leeway.)
I have this issue majorly with my one row...coz I can't tighten the strap and have small hands...I have a piece of wood that is an addition which helps but doesn't completely stop the slip. (I've just given up on playing the bases if I want to be able to grip the bass and and use the air button.)

But on my tommy I found keeping the strap pretty snug helps...although everyone else who tries it adjust the strap...I must have *very* small hands. lol!

On my old beltuna I resorted to a strap arrangement I sewed up myself
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1880.msg18741.html#msg18741
It tied on to the bottom of the bass strap and then my wrist went through it.....that solved the problem for that box.

BJG

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 07:08:29 PM »

You need to exploit the gravity situation to your advantage: it is perfectly acceptable to have the left-hand end of the instrument drooping downwards - see my avatar photo. In this position, gravity helps extend the bellows for you on the pull

I've really only just fully absorbed this advice, and I'd like to say again how helpful this forum has been for this self-taught newbie. I don't think I'd have got anywhere without it.  Thanks!
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deltasalmon

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 07:32:20 PM »

You need to exploit the gravity situation to your advantage: it is perfectly acceptable to have the left-hand end of the instrument drooping downwards - see my avatar photo. In this position, gravity helps extend the bellows for you on the pull

I've really only just fully absorbed this advice, and I'd like to say again how helpful this forum has been for this self-taught newbie. I don't think I'd have got anywhere without it.  Thanks!

Another good thing about playing in this position, especially in a session setting is that you can hear yourself better with the grill aimed at your face  :||:
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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2014, 12:30:47 PM »

I too was bedeviled by a slipping left hand and wrote a post that received similar valuable advice several years ago. Since then the problem has gradually cured itself while I tried this and that. I found that no single approach did the trick though some things made it better or worse along the way.

That extra bass strap is now in a drawer and I'm mostly keeping my left hand in position. I feel like I've graduated from beginner school, in terms of needing a training aid, at least. I found that using the extra strap and applying advice from other players helped me sort out why I was drifting all over the bass plate, so thanks for the replies.

In summary here's what I learned:

  • My bass strap was way too loose. This in turn created several effects as I tried to compensate.
  • My wrist watch interfered with positioning my wrist under the bass strap. As a result my hand was too far back and the bass strap was against the back of my hand. Tensioning the bass strap pressed against tendons and caused discomfort. When I did put the bass strap over my watch, the watch strap reduced the friction between my wrist and the wood, allowing my hand to skate around.
  • To create more friction I was twisting my wrist to press the base of my thumb against the box. That pressure created muscle cramps. (Others prefer using the base of the thumb in this way, so this method probably would have worked if over time I had learned how to optimize the pressure.)
  • The box was leaning back too far from vertical toward the axis of my torso. With each push-pull against a strap that was too loose, gravity tended to pull the strap downhill toward my elbow. Keeping the back of the keyboard closer to vertical or tilting it forward helped resist this.
  • I was not taking the opportunity to push gently down when the bellows were nearly closed, using my leg to resist the downward pressure and thereby resisting the tendency of my hand to drift upward toward the air button.

Now my watch lives on my right, the bass strap bears on my wrist, the box leans a bit forward and I push my hand down when I can. Gradually all this is becoming less conscious and at times it feels just like having the extra strap but without the bother. Whew.


In retrospect, adding a second strap to the bass end helped by allowing my hand to relax and feel where it should be in relation to the buttons and wrist strap. I used the strap for several months and then found I no longer needed it. I think this was a valuable crutch that contributed to learning how to keep in position though I don't think it is a long term solution.

For me tension of the wrist strap comes from two sources: properly adjusting the length of the wrist strap and while playing, adjusting the position of my wrist and arm in relation to the left end.

Recently I discovered a different way to tune the wrist tension while playing. Last summer my Belgian tutor showed me a callous on the inside of his arm about four inches up from the wrist where the inner edge of the left end presses. I found that he and many other players I met in Belgium deliberately push the left end forward in relationship to the right end, creating an S shaped curve in the extended bellows when viewed from the top.

This video shows that curved bellows shape starting around 2:29 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIO0CYyCWc. Notice the the top bellows folds are not parallel to each other but form a series of angles. The left and right ends tend to be parallel but the left end is displaced forward, away from the player's body.

As the bellows extend, this forward pressure tends to rotate the left end clockwise as seen from above. Resisting the rotation with the left arm causes the outside of the wrist to press against the wrist strap and the inside of the arm to press against the box's inner edge. The resulting friction can cause a callous but it stabilizes the left hand without requiring that the wrist strap be tight all the time. The amount of pressure between the arm and left end can be subtle or greater, depending on how much the left end moves forward in relation to the right end and how much extension in the bellows.

I believe this can also be a way to create the magic glue experienced players seem to use to keep the left hand in position. I have found that it helped me and thought I would mention it. Perhaps other players have the badge of the callous as a secret melodeon sign of recognition?

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playandteach

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Re: Slipping left hand
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »

I think that Melnet and Youtube, added to an inquiring attitude is a fantastic combination for progression.
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