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[Clive Williams]

The wonderful thing about a dutch reversal is you can arrange your accidental row on a 3 row so you have *every* note available on the pull, assuming you repeat accidentals every 4 keys; it's fully chromatic! Otherwise you have to choose one note to leave out, because duplication of the E uses up a slot.

It's a very clever idea, and makes particular sense in the 3 row world.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

The wonderful thing about a dutch reversal is you can arrange your accidental row on a 3 row so you have *every* note available on the pull, assuming you repeat accidentals every 4 keys; it's fully chromatic! Otherwise you have to choose one note to leave out, because duplication of the E uses up a slot.

It's a very clever idea, and makes particular sense in the 3 row world.

But only in the middle octave (of the Bob Ellis style low D scale layout).

[Chris Ryall]

Still on unisonorics - I have Ab, C# and C doing that on my kit, but the first two are so divorced from the main row scales as to only be of use in chords of tension.

But C … well, there is a lot there once you get the feel of it and I have a both ways F nicely placed on the other side. I'm presently trying hard on songs and experimentaly put a couple into C last week. It really rocks! I try not to drone, but the C bass cuts in and out against D, F  and G right hand chords and has lovely (to my ear) modal sus and min7 effects with the bass carrying the whole lot forward.

What an instrument this is!

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Still on unisonorics - I have Ab, C# and C doing that on my kit, but the first two are so divorced from the main row scales as to only be of use in chords of tension.

But C … well, there is a lot there once you get the feel of it and I have a both ways F nicely placed on the other side. I'm presently trying hard on songs and experimentaly put a couple into C last week. It really rocks! I try not to drone, but the C bass cuts in and out against D, F  and G right hand chords and has lovely (to my ear) modal sus and min7 effects with the bass carrying the whole lot forward.

What an instrument this is!

Are you talking left or right hand here, Chris?

[Baron Collins-Hill]

I don't want to cause thread drift on my own thread, but something I would love to see is videos of three row players' personal layouts that explain and give musical examples of how they put the personal quirks of their system to work. While looking at layouts and talking about their pros and cons can be very enlightening, it really comes down to how the layout is being played, as has been mentioned. I think that this aspect would be most effectively communicated through a quick YouTube video.

This could be a thread of it's own if it seemed like a good idea, but I figured I'd open up the idea here and let it fizzle out without starting a new thread, but if it takes off, I could see it becoming a very informative resource for people that are trying to develop their own systems.

I guess this is hard to do with layouts that are not yet layout out on instruments.

Thanks,
Baron

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Also, Chris R., taking a closer look at your layout you posted here, do you actually have a redundant C2 pull as a chin end accidental on the middle row?

Baron

[Chris Ryall]

Hmm - another one - yup - that is actually my reverse Ab - [corrected] - it works but wit 4th start is a bit of a stretch - and I have large hands - so more useful for eg Bb7 chord than scales

[Chris Brimley]

It's a good idea, Baron.  I'm afraid I personally don't really have much in the way of video-making equipment - would Soundcloud clips with maybe comments contribute?

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Hi Chris B,

That would be great! I will start a new thread after all to preserve the initial intent of this one and make the other thread more cohesive and searchable, and will add to it once I take the plunge into custom 3 row systems myself (I play one already, but it's not my design. Perhaps Bob could give us an overview of his on the upcoming thread and also show off his beautiful Guais box a little ).

Thanks,
Baron

[waltzman]

I'm sure there are some marvellous piano and CBA players around that do great dynamic stuff, but I think they use different (and harder) techniques than us melodeon players use.

I've tried to analyze this also. Why is it so difficult to get crisp jigs and reels out of a unisonoric accordion?  I think the technique is more difficult and depends mostly on finger agility and being able to hit and release the button/key very precisely.  There must be some controlled changes in bellows pressure too but I think most of it is in the flying fingers.  Only a very small percentage of CBA/PA players can do it effectively in my opinion.

[Chris Ryall]

Are you talking left or right hand here, Chris?

I tend to mix both treating istrument as a whole. Even on my old Lily I used to 'borrow' a low B from other end for tunes. Yes, I'm left handed but right hand chords was my 'moment of discovery' on melodeon

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Chris R., (or anyone that has input)

I think I remember reading something you posted at one point about wide intervals on reed plates causing some undesirable sounds. If that was you, could you expound a little more on that, and do you think that I might run into that on my low C/G button (first button outside row)?

Thanks,
Baron

[Baron Collins-Hill]

To be more specific, I got lucky with the search function and found the conversation. It is in Clive's "Comments please on this 3 row D/G/Acc layout"

Having accidental pairs that sound good together (e.g Bb/Eb) is in general a good idea so that quick bellows reversals don't sound horrible if timed slightly wrong :-)

and Chris, your response:

Against that, pairs like Ab/Bb will be better tuned to the resonance of the chamber, you may get tone change, that's what happens with my ^revC/Ab on the vdAa, but as they get used as passing notes it's OK

Is it the b6 specifically that creates the tone change you speak of, or is it that large intervals generally interfere with box resonance/tone change.

Thanks,
Baron

[Chris Ryall]

Against that, pairs like Ab/Bb will be better tuned to the resonance of the chamber, you may get tone change, that's what happens with my ^revC/Ab on the vdAa, but as they get used as passing notes it's OK

Is it the b6 specifically that creates the tone change you speak of, or is it that large intervals generally interfere with box resonance/tone change.

Think it is that the chamber can't be at the sweet spot for both but would defer to anyone who actualy tunes reeds. Close reeds also can resonate as one is played - said to be one reason for the stronger tone of a CBA, where they are of course the same.

[Chris Ryall]

I don't want to cause thread drift on my own thread, but something I would love to see is videos of three row players' personal layouts that explain and give musical examples of how they put the personal quirks of their system to work. While looking at layouts and talking about their pros and cons can be very enlightening, it really comes down to how the layout is being played, as has been mentioned. I think that this aspect would be most effectively communicated through a quick YouTube video.

OK (and also in honour of Clive's "do something unexpected" theme ) here are a couple of songs that I've been working up. Both on my C#DG 18 bass

  MacCall's champion at keepin em rollin as a blues

A minor is in a near "sweet spot" key for a DG box. I'm using mainly bellows for rhythm in an Am,C,F,E riff, and rocking bellows on C for  … effect, bit of relaxation, and to help balance the air I could use and E7 chord - push on my kit, for that too. In the intro I'm trying to alternate slushy Am79 chord segments against [D+B chords +E bass] again for effect, a noise imitating the 1950's AEC engine. I use my accs row for the A blues bits, F in the F chord, and D(=7) on its E chord. There's also 'blue' Bb … somewhere near Bristol The impro gets progressively worse - sorry single take.

  English trad Seven Gypsies

This is an attempt to immitate the chrisp "English" guitar style on box, aiming for open space (though still not enough?) Pitching in Bb offers me a load of sus effects without effort or too much thought. The scale is all pull and runs over 3 octaves. I sort of steal a bass push F+Bb at verse end … to close those bellows!

This is a strongly modal approach and a couple of times I roll Cm pentatonic scale (an old friend) instead of an Eb chord. "Out" bits include a B played over the B+F drone, as a b9 and essentially to be sinister, and some impro'd Arabic double harmonic at the and, again for its dischords and to emphasise darkness.

[Sebastian]

Thank you! To see it in practice helps me to understand your theoretical explanations.

[Chris Ryall]

The Am blue:s Graphic off melodeon explorer - Inner row standard G , middle row standard D, outer is 'mostly' C#

The blues: I see the E7 and F chord 'in y head' as triangles, note that the bass isn't needed for the E. Actually in the video I played Em7 - a more mundane 3 in a row pull on my D row, with 7th (D) got from the outer 'helper' row, and the occasional 9th (F#)  pull on inner row when I feel like it, Note that F plays mid box and also at the top. Or you can get to inversions by stretching between the two for your F A and C

The scales I practice up and down and once I know the 'piste' I try to travel in in slightly more interesting ways, while not stepping off it

 A is great! Here I show Am blues which I 'see' as a pair of 2,2,2 stairs, covering 2 octaves. Major wouldn't work on this song, but if the 'room' is in A blues both major and minor scales work. A major blues is the same as F#m blues (built in scale on a DG, illustrated elsewhere)

[Chris Ryall]

The Bb scale on this layout is a cracker - it used the whole of the pull C# row so if you miss a note you just get a sus effect. There are excursions into the inner rows for its G A and C notes.

Bb chord is along outer row, Eb chord is a triangle Eb,G,Bb - again present in 2 places that can be used for inversions.  F chord is the same as in the other tune, and gets used in both octaves

As Cm penatonic is the same notes as Eb major pentatonic I use bits of this scale to replace Eb 'fairly freely'.  It is an old friend as the French play a lot of C blues. I omit its F# in this song - too blue

[Chris Brimley]

Rispeck, Man!

You make a lot of very difficult things look easy - particularly remembering the words while playing complex and varying LH and RH patterns.

I'd not noticed before, but your LH buttons are smaller, aren't they? - that's a very good idea for an 18 bass layout.

I like your 'triangles' idea - a concept I'm trying to learn to picture too.  I notice that you often look at your keyboard, too, and can see why.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Very nice Chris! I agree that it is great to see your layout matched with your playing style! I will copy and paste some of this over to the thread I started on examples of custom layouts in action at some point.