Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?  (Read 17485 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

squeezy

  • Quick starter (now lagging behind)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
  • Hohner Cornelia (mixte D/G/o&s)
    • www.johnspiers.co.uk
Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« on: December 01, 2017, 11:33:49 PM »

To put this in to context I have seen the inside of a great number of very differently made boxes over the years, but only now am thinking about how they get made.

I'm trying to create a set of duplicate reedblocks for one of my boxes, with the goal of putting brand new reeds in an old Hohner without destroying what's already there and I currently have lots of bits of wood in various stages of looking a bit like bits of reedblocks - but not really succeeding.

I've noticed that most of the blocks I've seen are built up from very small, delicate pieces of softwood glued together like a wooden model ... but some (including many in boxes which sound amazing) are reed "combs" cut from a single piece of hardwood glued together with a thin dividing piece of wood.  From two days experience of trying to recreate this method - it is not easy to precision cut a "comb" from a piece of seasoned hardwood!

Other things I have difficulty with are the taper away from the fondo that is normal - is this achieved with sanding on a jig? planing before the comb is cut? built from exactly equally tapering pieces before it is glued together?  I also struggle with the way some blocks are completely angled away from eachother.

So what's the big secret ... how are they made normally?  Is there one answer to this question?

I am putting all my trust in melodeon.net ... you're bound to know   ;D



Logged
Squeezy

Sometimes wrong, sometimes right ... but always certain!

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 12:49:38 AM »

I think I have photos of the process that Emmanuel uses on his courses.  They are built up from small pieces glued together and are mostly hardwood so as to give a good substrate  for the screws they he used to secure the reeds.

Regarding blocks carved from solid, the ones I have seen in older Castagnari and Paolo Sopranis are made from one piece with chambers cut on both sides, and then a base and a top glued on.  The material is usually a light soft hardwood, possibly obeche, or something similar.

I’ll try and post photos tomorrow.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 07:56:20 AM »

I have photos from Emmanuel Pariselle's courses too. I'll wait to see what Theo posts, then if there are any gaps, I will post some of mine. I will need to reduce the file size first; I don't have time to do it today.

But the basic answer is that the back plate and chambers are built using a plastic (rigid polythene?) jig to hold the wooden parts in place while the PVA glue sets. The glue does not adhere to the plastic, so the assembled parts can be removed from the jig once the glue has set.

Shaping of the taper was done by EP using a belt sander. The top piece which fits over the top of the vertical reed plate is made from a single piece of wood (red cedar?) which has a saw cut half-way through the thickness at the kink point. This enables a bend to be made without fracturing the wood. The top piece is glued and clamped into place until the glue has set, then any subsequent smoothing and shaping done on a belt sander or by sanding by hand.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

pete /acorn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 872
  • .Cast Trilly
    • Acorn Instruments
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 07:58:12 AM »

Hi John,
These are fun to make,if you have the right gear not as hard as it looks but time consuming,you really need a good circular saw and I use a press,
If you have a circular saw with a sliding table even better but you can make a jig for a normal saw with a groove in the bed.
Re the center piece,I normally cut grooves to take the feed supports in a piece of wood thicker than required then cut it down on a jig to taper it and leave shallow grooves ,you could also use an under mounted router to do this.

I must admit I have a full woodwork shop to play with.

One tip re glue,industrial 2 part super glue is brilliant,it gives you time to make sure in right position before it grabs.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 10:48:10 AM by pete /acorn »
Logged
Acorn Instruments are the official retailer for Castagnari Instruments,Melodeons and Accordions for England and Scotland and have an extensive stock of new instruments on the shelf for prompt delivery in standard layouts however these can easily be changed to customers specia lrequirements
 We also have the largest stock in the UK of  pre loved melodons all fully serviced,and with 12 months warranty
UK and international customers catered for
www.acorninstruments.co.uk

Rog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2296
  • Repair and tuning in Hants
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 09:34:27 AM »

I'd say a table saw is almost essential for this job. And a belt sander and a press drill.

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9111
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 09:44:21 AM »

Emmanuelle has a number of these jigs made of some sort of plastic into which you slaide the comb parts of the block to glue them together.

squeezy

  • Quick starter (now lagging behind)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1288
  • Hohner Cornelia (mixte D/G/o&s)
    • www.johnspiers.co.uk
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 10:02:29 AM »

Thank you for all the replies so far.  I can appreciate that a belt or table sander and a drill press are necessary for the process - but I can't see how a table saw would be used.

I think most peoples experience will be with blocks made on Emannuel's course so it's good to know that those are made by assembly from small pieces of stripwood and then sanded down.  The blocks I am attempting to replicate are from a small instrument and because of this the sections between the reed chambers are very thin (<3mm) - I wonder whether such an assembly would be strong enough to be sanded with a belt sander even after being glued together?

I'm currently continuing with the method of planing down a single piece of wood to the correct tapered profile and then attempting to use a scroll saw to cut out the chambers as precisely as possible - I'm still messing around with different blades and my skills of getting a dead straight line with a scroll saw could be better!  Two of these will then be glued together with a divider of 1.5mm basswood to create the main assembly which will then be glued to the mounting board (or reedblock "foot" - I don't really have a vocabulary to talk about this!) made of 5mm beech which will have holes drilled in the correct places using a drill press.

However - when this fails (ever the optimist!) I shall start attempting to do it much more like building a model as has been described here.  I get the impression there might be many different solutions but please keep them coming - other peoples experiences adds so much to my guesswork and experiments.
Logged
Squeezy

Sometimes wrong, sometimes right ... but always certain!

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 10:04:05 AM »

That is the jig for making the flat reed base on a one row 4 stop.  You can also use it for upright blocks, but you don't need the singe long channel running lengthwise.

This picture shows the slightly simpler version.   I had some made like this by a friend with a milling machine.

I've searched my photos but this is all I can find.  Over to you Stevefreereeder.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 10:07:30 AM »

The blocks I am attempting to replicate are from a small instrument and because of this the sections between the reed chambers are very thin (<3mm) - I wonder whether such an assembly would be strong enough to be sanded with a belt sander even after being glued together?


You could try using aircraft ply for the dividers.   It is available in various thickness down to 3 ply 0.6mm!  I think this would survive a belt sender if you go at it gently.   I also think you could do all your sanding by hand on a sheet of 300 grit glued onto a flat surface.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 10:09:22 AM by Theo »
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13730
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 10:11:37 AM »

And the next of Emmanuel's courses is at Halsway in Week beginning 17 March.  Visitors welcome, a picture is worth a 1000 words, seeing it done and being able to ask questions is even better.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Microbot

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 10:53:03 AM »

Hi Squeezy,

having made quite a few sets of replacement reedblocks and with a replacement set for an Oakwood looming ... here's my tuppenceworth.

I have always used the 'kit' approach.

Start with ALL the bassplates ... Make rubbings of the fondo ... then drill your apertures in the new bassplates and lay these out in the instrument until you get a perfect fit of all the bassplates and perfect match-up with the soundboard holes. Then you can build upwards.

As well as a jig for laying out the chamber dividers, I also fashion a simple jig for cutting the angle at the bass of the chamber dividers to get those (reasonably) equal. When BOTH sides of the chamber dividers are glued/fixed .... sand the bass of this unit to finish and give a perfect surface - then you can attach to the bassplate with a perfect contact. I also make the chamber dividers slightly too long, to finish by sanding before fixing the reedblock top.

BUT ... before you glue the chamber units down onto the bassplates, position all of them on the bassplates 'in situ' ie in the instrument ... are the angles correct? Do you need to 'shift' adjust position/angles of the chambers towards/away from one edge to ensure adequate reed-tongue clearance? Get everything right before any gluing.

For sanding, a sheet of toughened glass and a mix of sandpapers is, in my experience, safer and better than any belt sander, which (although they ought to) do not always sand equally across an area... they tend to 'bite' at the ends/edges. Glass and sandpaper, at least to finish with...

The other thing is ... there is a natural tendency to 'over-engineer' DIY projects like this, particularly in the sense of wood thickness.

Knowing the instrument you're intending to work towards, I'd say your projected 5mm beech for the bassplate needs to be reduced to 3mm or 3.5 mm max. Also - I think you are intending to fit reeds with a longer scale/tongue length, and you need to ensure bellows clearance... for this you are in the business of 'stealing' millimeteres ... sometimes fractions of millimetres.... at every possible opportunity. Thus the divider running the length of the block, and inbetween the two sides of the block, would be better at 0.5mm ... 1.5mm is a waste of chamber depth/volume.

Check out the original reedblocks for best guidance on all these dimensions and try not to exceed them even by a fraction. (If you want some hardwood ply with less than 1mm thickness, I know where this may be obtainable).

good luck with it .... "Festina lente" and remember that Melodeon fettling was sent down by God to tame the impetuous!

Mike
Logged

Graham Spencer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
  • MAD as a wet Hohner........
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 12:53:49 PM »

Good quality ply down to 0.5mm is - or was! - reasonably readily obtainable. I used to buy it from my local model shop when I lived in UK. They usually had a good stock in thicknesses fro 0.5mm to 4mm.

Graham
Logged
Among others, Saltarelle Pastourelle II D/G; Hohner 4-stop 1-rows in C & G; assorted Hohners; 3-voice German (?) G/C of uncertain parentage; lovely little Hlavacek 1-row Heligonka; B♭/E♭ Koch. Newly acquired G/C Hohner Viktoria. Also Fender Jazz bass, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Epiphone Sheraton, Charvel-Jackson 00-style acoustic guitar, Danelectro 12-string and other stuff..........

Squeezing in the Cyprus sunshine

Anne Croucher

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 200
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 10:15:03 PM »

How long before someone tries 3D printing?
Logged
Barcarole D/G
Hohner Ericas D/G and C/F
Hohner el Rey del Vallenato A/D/G aka 'Elvis'
Hohner Liliput Bb/Eb club layout
Meinel & Herold G C F 3 voice 3 row 16 bass

ChrisLDD

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
  • ... but which way is up?
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 12:15:28 AM »

Hi Squeezy,

A few quick thoughts:

1.   In the process of working towards the design and making of my own box, I have made reed-blocks in a number of different ways: from the simple cutting out of pieces with bandsaw, interlocking laser-cut parts, to full CNC routing of aluminum, plastic, and wood. Whatever way you end up proceeding with, I would recommend that you tackle just one reed-block first, the simplest, working on it until it provides the performance you are looking for.

Points to note:
1.   The Lucia reed-blocks have a central divider that is only 1mm thick, and appears to be very hard and dense (maybe treated in some way to enhance these properties) – Hohner obviously did this for a reason, and I would be mindful that fact.
2.   I think you mentioned that the reed-plates you are using are 3.5mm thick, whereas those on a Lucia are only 2.5mm. 1mm extra thickness may not sound like a lot, but as Microbot pointed out, clearance on such a compact box will be at a premium.
3.   Reed-block heights: From my notes about the Lucia, I believe that there is about 10-12mm clearance between the treble and bass blocks (could be more with some fettling of the bass-block), so you do have some breathing room. But again, I agree with Microbot, and would stick with the 3.5mm used on the Lucia. Thought… you could, if required, raise up the two outside reed-blocks, to improve the reed-tip clearance over the central block.

Anyway … a great project, really interested to se how it progresses – good luck!
Logged
Trying to learn enough magic to make my own melodeon.

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3785
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 06:39:43 AM »

It might be worth getting in touch with Mike T one of our gang. He made from scratch the reed blocks for my Organette. I’m sure he will give you some pointers. A truly talented fella.
Logged
Has anyone heard of the song. “ Broken Alarm-clock Blues” ? It starts   “I woke up this Afternoon”

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 09:51:46 AM »

That is the jig for making the flat reed base on a one row 4 stop.  You can also use it for upright blocks, but you don't need the singe long channel running lengthwise.

This picture shows the slightly simpler version.   I had some made like this by a friend with a milling machine.

I've searched my photos but this is all I can find.  Over to you Stevefreereeder.

Rather than reduce the size and post some of my own photos from the 2008 Melodeon Makers' course, I have linked to Paul Johnson's Flickr album which has many excellent photos which show the various stages in the construction process including the reed blocks and the jigs. You may even see a photo of Theo among them.

For those of you who don't know, Paul was an active member of this forum (Paul J) up until his tragic premature death early in 2014. He was out sailing (one of his other great loves) in the Suffolk river estuaries by Harwich but felt unwell and died suddenly. Very shocking loss of a good friend. He and I were workshop buddies on the 2008 course, and we often met up at Witney, Stowmarket and Mendlesham to share a few tunes and have a couple of beers.

Paul's detailed melodeon making album is here.

A more general album with more people you may recognise is here.

Many thanks to Paul's family who have allowed his Flickr account to remain open so we can all remember him.
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

boxcall

  • You got to love it!!!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1755
  • Accordion to who?
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 04:00:32 PM »

Sorry to hear about your friend Steve, I guess at least he was doing something he loved when it happen , quite a shock for family and friends though.

Great Pictures they will be helpful to any one thinking of making a box (myself included as I've got a pile of parts that I started awhile back but have not finished ), thanks to you and the family for sharing.

Cheers,
Michael
Logged
Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

Rob2Hook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2278
  • Castagnaris, Hohners & Baffetti
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 04:45:03 PM »

Funny thing, when I saw the photos of the outer "flat mounted" reeds in place, I thought it was a build based on the Preciosa model.  I only realised that it was a Cajun style four stop once the upright blocks appeared! 

Rob.
Logged

Rob2Hook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2278
  • Castagnaris, Hohners & Baffetti
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 05:37:33 PM »

Actually I was thinking how I would not like to use a belt sander on such a delicate structure.  With a mate of mine we have made some remarkable shapes with one holding the belt sander whilst the other manipulates the workpiece.  It doesn't really lend itself to producing a flat surface, though.  I once tried to sand down a guitar nut with a similar (smaller) device - it was a brute!  I'd prefer taping a whole sheet of sandpaper to a glass sheet and rubbing the block across it.

I have reservations about using thin ply too, if you're tempted to pin or screw the reeds in place.  It doesn't take fasteners at all well but for waxed reeds it should be the most stable wood construction.

You could rout a comb from solid, although you'd be removing more material than you're leaving behind.  Once the chambers are cut, simply glue top and bottom in place.  It does have the advantage that the base could be fully finished and aligned with the mounting before assembling the complete block.

Rob
Logged

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9111
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Reed blocks ... come on then - how do you do it?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 05:47:19 PM »

Actually I was thinking how I would not like to use a belt sander on such a delicate structure.  With a mate of mine we have made some remarkable shapes with one holding the belt sander whilst the other manipulates the workpiece. 


I think we are talking about bench sanders rather than belt sanders

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal