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Author Topic: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout  (Read 1845 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2019, 05:22:48 PM »


Whats interesting in the gapped scale, is I saw it and though hexachord - which of course it isn't becuase you need more than 6 notes to play.

Gapped scales are common in folk tunes.

So only question is why the music had the first section written in a key of A minor, when ity could have been written in a key of D minor without changing any notes.

Because it's modal music. With a gapped scale to boot...

...most people active in the tradition these days would regard that as both silly and misguided. I would say the same about putting a Bb in the key signature of the first part of the tune we are talking about here. Having no sharps or flats in the signature does not mean A minor any more than it means C major. And the fact that the start of the tune calls for a D minor chord does not mean the tune is in modern Western D minor.

To put this tune in perspective, it was collected in the late 19C (1892) from the playing of William Andrews, of Sheepstor, Devon, by the Rev. Baring-Gould and his scribe, Frederick Bussell, who did the actual transcription. Bussell was a very well educated musician, who was well aware  of "western" music conventions and the nuances of modal tunes, as found in folk traditions throughout the British Isles. He seems to have deliberately scored his is transcription in a key of "no sharps or flats". If he had felt it deserved a Bb I am sure he would have given it one.

The tune was played on the fiddle to accompany sung verses. Maybe there was something in the singing that indicated key. We can only speculate. There are no clues in the basic melody, which is original. The arrangement is modern (Becky Driscoll and Nick Wyke).

Bear in mind that I don't present this tune as an example of a modal tune, but as the simplest example I could think of of what I thought Tony meant (and still think it's what he means) when he spoke of a tune that switches between  major and minor, using the solution of a fifth chord (i.e., thirdless, power or what Pete calls suspended) to harmonise both the  major and the minor.
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Greg Smith
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2019, 11:40:39 PM »

On a FR-18 you could use Tablature 1 or 2 as a template, then create a bass layout with the minor version of the chords on the bass buttons that are not used, for example for a G/C setup, add the G minor, C minor and D minor, even F minor. These tablatures are 2-row with a full row of accidentals, that should get you covered.

Bass is not the issue ,is the treble, by default the fr 18 is in the key of G ....in any tablature the note essential for the minor chord e flat or D sharp is mising ,if i add/change one of the note to D sharp then the note that i replaced  is gone of course  and i can't play with out it
In other words i gain the missing note but i lose an other that i will need little on ......
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2019, 12:42:45 AM »

....in any tablature the note essential for the minor chord e flat or D sharp is mising ,if i add/change one of the note to D sharp then the note that i replaced  is gone of course  and i can't play with out it ...


That's odd. Every GCAcc and GCF layout I have seen has Eb flat available in at least one direction. Does the FR-18 only give non-standard layouts?

[Edited to add an example]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:51:46 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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David Summers

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2019, 10:56:32 AM »

To put this tune in perspective, it was collected in the late 19C (1892) from the playing of William Andrews, of Sheepstor, Devon, by the Rev. Baring-Gould and his scribe, Frederick Bussell, who did the actual transcription. Bussell was a very well educated musician, who was well aware  of "western" music conventions and the nuances of modal tunes, as found in folk traditions throughout the British Isles. He seems to have deliberately scored his is transcription in a key of "no sharps or flats". If he had felt it deserved a Bb I am sure he would have given it one.

The tune was played on the fiddle to accompany sung verses. Maybe there was something in the singing that indicated key. We can only speculate. There are no clues in the basic melody, which is original. The arrangement is modern (Becky Driscoll and Nick Wyke).

Bear in mind that I don't present this tune as an example of a modal tune, but as the simplest example I could think of of what I thought Tony meant (and still think it's what he means) when he spoke of a tune that switches between  major and minor, using the solution of a fifth chord (i.e., thirdless, power or what Pete calls suspended) to harmonise both the  major and the minor.
Been looking into this tune, as its really fun, and will look to doing an arrangement for folk choir.

Anyway whats interesing is that a scan of the original transcribe is avaiable from the Vaughan Williams Library:

https://www.vwml.org/record/SBG/1/3/64


He has transcribed the music, and does give the key as D Minor (with a Bb). When he goes into the major, he has done this with accidentals (e.g. B natural, F# and C#). There is a comment about the F#, maybe something to do with key, but can't quite be read.

What I love about the tune is how its based on chords, but played seqentially. Does mean you can see the root of the chord in each case, and what the third of the chord is, and if its major or minor.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:02:57 AM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2019, 12:11:58 PM »

..He has transcribed the music, and does give the key as D Minor (with a Bb). When he goes into the major, he has done this with accidentals (e.g. B natural, F# and C#). There is a comment about the F#, maybe something to do with key, but can't quite be read...

Thanks. I stand corrected. Teach me not to go to the original source  ;D
My source was the Wren Trust publication "The William Andrew's Tune Book:A Dartmoor Fiddler", ed. Chris Bartram and Paul Wilson (1998).

Looking at it more carefully, there is note in small print, which reads "Key signature of one flat in the manuscript. All notes held to the same pitches." Another note about the F# comment reads"G with F sharp and B natural".  Make of that what you like, with regard to the C in that section being sharp. The choice of key seems to have a deliberate act of the editors.
Puzzled of Looe

I still think it stands as an example of a simple, but effective tune, with thirdless chords
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Greg Smith
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2019, 12:18:01 PM »

Ok friends is time for me to do some homework, i am not to familiar with diatonic accordion, my instruments are piano and organetto.....im looking for books,dvds even one to one classes ,yhere is many things that i don't understand like accidental, all in all i tough that all the notes needed to play where all available in the same area closed with each other, but like some one posted here in order to have what I'm looking ( all notes in closed range)i need to play the chromatic accordion  ....but i am determined to find a solution to my issue with my diatonic accordion
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David Summers

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2019, 12:33:39 PM »

..He has transcribed the music, and does give the key as D Minor (with a Bb). When he goes into the major, he has done this with accidentals (e.g. B natural, F# and C#). There is a comment about the F#, maybe something to do with key, but can't quite be read...

Thanks. I stand corrected. Teach me not to go to the original source  ;D
My source was the Wren Trust publication "The William Andrew's Tune Book:A Dartmoor Fiddler", ed. Chris Bartram and Paul Wilson (1998).

Looking at it more carefully, there is note in small print, which reads "Key signature of one flat in the manuscript. All notes held to the same pitches." Another note about the F# comment reads"G with F sharp and B natural".  Make of that what you like, with regard to the C in that section being sharp. The choice of key seems to have a deliberate act of the editors.
Puzzled of Looe

I still think it stands as an example of a simple, but effective tune, with thirdless chords
Have to admit, when I think of doing arrangements of a tune, I now almost always try and go back to the original source. Then you can see what has been added by others, so you can see original context and what has been added.

You are doing better than I at reading the small text! But yes, what you read does make sense.

I suspect what is refered to, is the second half kicks of with a couple of bars based on G Major chord, now this could also be said to be in a key of G Major; and in G Major have an F#, but the C (& B) are natural. Now the one place that a C# is used, is in bar 6, and just looking at the run, G A B C# D (in D Major) vs G A B C D (in G Major), and to my mind its hard to say which is right. Whats important to the music in the B section is that the third and sixth are major and not minor (so F# and B), if thats achieved then the B section has the right feel.

When I do the arrangement, I'm going to try it with both a C and C#, and see which works best, and if both work I'll go with C# as transcribed.

Oh yes, the thirdlesss chords is a Becki Driscoll adapation. Its an excelent idea, as it ties the whole piece to the Dminor, GMajor and DMajor chords - so rather than chords being sequential in the tune, she has them always there in the bass. Its a pity I can't use Becki Driscoll arrangement for the choir, but it badly brakes rules of counterpoint, and that goes against my (choral music) sensibilities.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 12:39:54 PM by David Summers »
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2019, 04:26:41 PM »

yhere is many things that i don't understand like accidental, all in all i tough that all the notes needed to play where all available in the same area closed with each other, but like some one posted here in order to have what I'm looking ( all notes in closed range)i need to play the chromatic accordion

by default the fr 18 is in the key of G ....in any tablature the note essential for the minor chord e flat or D sharp is mising

Hi Tony,

My post here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,24736.msg294872.html#msg294872 details how you could play the chords you talked about needing with the factory default Tablature 1 for your Roland FR-18, using pages from the manual to indicate the layout.

Attached to the post I linked above are two images, taken from the manual with coloured boxes overlayed, that show where I would find the notes to play the major and minor chords you asked about, which includes the E flat. I personally would find these notes sufficiently close to one another to be workable.

Was my post not helpful? I may be able to point you towards other solutions, if so.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2019, 05:54:35 PM »

You are very kind thank you, i will look in to it
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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2019, 06:04:39 PM »

There is a comment about the F#, maybe something to do with key, but can't quite be read.
I think it just says G maj, F# B Natural (I haven't got a natural sign on my keyboard)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2019, 06:32:06 PM »

There is a comment about the F#, maybe something to do with key, but can't quite be read.
I think it just says G maj, F# B Natural (I haven't got a natural sign on my keyboard)

You're right. I quoted the copy in the "Dartmoor Fiddler". I wonder why the editors changed the key signature. Definitely a deliberate act by competant musicians. I'm not sure if  Chris Bartram is still around, but the other editor, Paul Wilson, is still the main man at the Wren Trust. I tried to ring him to ask, but got an answer phone. Try again later.

[sorry about hijacking your post, Tony.]
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2019, 01:27:48 AM »

Little off topic but a little song with my Roland fr 18
Hope you like it

https://youtu.be/BmFuNziaFtQ
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