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Author Topic: Layout question on 1 rows  (Read 681 times)

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-Y-

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Layout question on 1 rows
« on: March 26, 2020, 03:23:30 PM »

I discovered (to my dismay) on my 1 row in D that I had a pulled A on the first button. And so I wondered why on so few buttons there was a duplicate.
I assume that it may be useful for chords in Cajun repertoire, but for my use (Québécois and Irish music) it seems a bit of a shame not to have a low B.
Do you know why there's that oddity? And if it would be possible for a tuner to go 1 tone lower on those reeds so as to have a low B?
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Y.

Planchée, folk music from Eastern BrittanyIsidore et les sans-soucis, folk music from Québec

(please excuse any misspelling or odd wording, english is not my mother tongue)

deltasalmon

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 03:38:58 PM »

It's doubled like you said for chords. That way the first three buttons produce the tonic (I) on the push and the dominant (V) on the pull.

I know some people retune it though so that you get an extra note in the scale for other types of music. Probably even more common in harmonica especially with Irish music.

EDIT: When I mention "retuning" I'm not sure if people actually tune the reeds or just replace it with different reeds tuned to the notes they want.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 03:42:37 PM by deltasalmon »
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Sean McGinnis
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tirpous

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 04:43:35 PM »

Quote
And if it would be possible for a tuner to go 1 tone lower on those reeds so as to have a low B?

I assume you mean 1 tone higher, from A to B.  It's possible to retune the reeds.  This came up recently in another thread:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,23700.140.html
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boxcall

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 10:05:17 PM »

Better to get a few new reeds.
I like having a Low B on my one row in D.

I thought about it on the Bb box in thread mentioned, if I go for it, I’d probably get the right reeds.

Or as I did with my beltuna on two reeds I got something close enough, not the same reeds.
My Beltuna had the B note but wrong octave, so I reused two reeds moving them up and replaced the others with close enough quality.
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mselic

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 02:59:27 AM »

Tuning the low A to a B is pretty standard modification on one-rows. The only reed that is a concern is the H reed, but as Tirpous mentioned there is a recent thread that discusses how to do this successfully.

I also cannot fathom why there is a repeated A note on that first button. Whatever advantage there could be to having it is greatly outweighed by the benefits of the low B note in its place. I’m also surprised that Melodie made your box that way! I’ve never seen a Melodie without the low B!
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 08:16:45 AM »

This will always come down to personal choice. I have always played one rows with the repeat note and find this a useful facility. I don't limit this to any particular style. I have Italian, Cajun and English tunes which are all enhanced through the added harmonic possibilities.

A good example of this is Oscar Wood's 'Italian Waltz'. Here transcribed in 'C'. Play this through and note how the low 'G' on the draw is used in the second part to fit with the 'G' chord.

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Italian Waltz (Oscar Woods)
B:Before The Night Was Out; EATMT (2007)
Z:Mike Hirst
Z:Fri 06 Sep 2019 13:20:37 BST
L:1/4
M:3/4
Q:3/4=60
K:C
D/>F/|E3|G3|A3|G3|cB>A|GAE|G2F|D3|
D3|E2G|F2G|A2c/e/|dcB|ABA|G3-|G2A|
G3|E2G|A2B/A/|G3|CcC|CDE|F3-|F2E|
FfF|FGF|E C/>D/ E/>D/|EDC|D3-|DCB,|C3-|C2:D|
E-E/>F/ E/>F/|E2D|C3|G,B,D|CcC|CDE|F3-|F2G|
F>E F/>E/|F2E|D3|G,3|G>A G/>A/|G2F|E3-|E2D|
E-E/>F/ E/>F/|E2D|C3|G,B,D|CcC|CDE|F3-|F2E|
FfF|FGF|EC/>D/ E/>D/|EDC|D3-|DED|C3C2|]

As an interesting aside, I had always assumed that the repeat note was standard, with alterations being individual modifications. However, I recently spent some time looking at an older model from my collection. The small 'Triumph' instrument shown in the imaged attached to the posting below has the date '19th June 1903' on a label inside. The reeds, in the key of 'F', are on a single zinc plate. There are no marks to suggest that the tuning has been altered, but there is no repeat note. The low button on the draw sounds a 'Bb' which continues the 'F' scale down to the low 'C' (which would be the expected draw repeat note). It seems that then, as now, there will always be room for variation.

On a final note, I have on occasion considered switching the low reed pair for accidentals. In 'C' I would probably go for 'Ab' on the draw and 'F#' on the push. 'D' scale equivalents would be 'Bb' and 'G#'. Dunno if anyone has ever gone this route, but if they have I would be interested to know.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 09:06:02 AM by Mike Hirst »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 08:19:48 AM »

This will always come down to personal choice. I have always played one rows with the repeat note and find this a useful facility. I don't limit this to any particular style. I have Italian, Cajun and English tunes which are all enhanced through the added harmonic possibilities.

A good example of this is Oscar Wood's 'Italian Waltz'. Here transcribed in 'C'. Play this through and note how the low 'G' on the draw is used in the second part to fit with the 'G' chord.
Yes - what Mike said. I like the repeated pull note, as discussed earlier in the thread, for precisely those reasons.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 08:39:42 AM »

For those who are interested, here is the picture of the Triumph instrument described above, resized to fit forum restrictions.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 09:00:53 AM »

As a final note here, i would add that although i have no conclusive proof of this, I am convinced that Alfred Montmarquette also used the repeat note when playing waltzes. This is pure conjecture on my part, but is based on careful listening and practical experience.
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Peadar

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 11:10:32 AM »

For those who are interested, here is the picture of the Triumph instrument described above, resized to fit forum restrictions.

If I understand correctly the first 3 buttons on your Triumph are (Push/Draw) : A/Bb    C/E     F/G

which I believe was the standard layout of the period.

The the 1st  and 2nd Button push notes are the continuation of the major chord, The E draw onbutton 2 is the leading 7th and  the Bb draw on1st button is next note up the scale from A.

To number the notes of a diatonic scale  (which makes it easier to see the general case)  3/4   5/7   1/2

Wyper's patent of 1915  proposed an improved keyboard layout

3/6   5/7  1/2

Which in F would be :     A/D    C/E   F/G

or in the case of a D box:    F#/B    A/C#   D/E

(I have acquired several pre and post Wyper patent Internationals and a 1920's Wilkinson Excelsior since Mike fed me information about Wyper/International boxes some month ago)









 
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mory

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 11:39:28 AM »

For those who are interested, here is the picture of the Triumph instrument described above, resized to fit forum restrictions.
Is that the melodeon or the pic Mike I just drifted......
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 12:15:27 PM »

Peadar, you are correct.
Bottom three buttons on Triumph are: A/Bb C/E F/G
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 12:16:33 PM »

For those who are interested, here is the picture of the Triumph instrument described above, resized to fit forum restrictions.
Is that the melodeon or the pic Mike I just drifted......
maybe it is me who is diminished
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Peadar

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 08:29:32 PM »

Peadar, you are correct.
Bottom three buttons on Triumph are: A/Bb C/E F/G

Similarly my Antoria, 3 stop long plate in A has

C#/D   E/G#   A/B
 
And I would expect any  pre 1915 1 in Row in D to have

F#/G   A/C#  D/E






« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 02:41:43 PM by Peadar »
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RBak

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2020, 04:03:39 AM »

When I had Desgagné build my box a couple years ago, he made a point of asking whether I wanted an A or B for that note. When I built my A box the year after, I completely forgot to specify that I wanted an F# on the first note pull, and the reeds showed up as an E on the pull. So it must be standard unless otherwise specified?
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Rees

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2020, 01:06:48 PM »

With regard to first button pull on a D box.
As a rough guide, English and Cajun music requires pull A.
Irish and Quebecois requires pull B.
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Peadar

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2020, 03:03:09 PM »

When I had Desgagné build my box a couple years ago, he made a point of asking whether I wanted an A or B for that note. When I built my A box the year after, I completely forgot to specify that I wanted an F# on the first note pull, and the reeds showed up as an E on the pull. So it must be standard unless otherwise specified?


The 1st button  pulls the  fifth (so) on post WWII Hohner 1 rows.  It pulls the 4th (fa) on pre 1914 1 rows including Hohner .

The first button also pulls the 4th on many  older semitone boxes. 


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mselic

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2020, 03:55:42 PM »

With regard to first button pull on a D box.
As a rough guide, English and Cajun music requires pull A.
Irish and Quebecois requires pull B.

Thanks. That makes sense. I was obviously thinking from the perspective of the latter when I expressed confusion about the pull A.
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tirpous

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2020, 05:50:32 PM »


Quote
I’ve never seen a Melodie without the low B!

Interesting - most Melodies I've seen or heard have an A (for a box in D).

Quote
When I built my A box the year after, I completely forgot to specify that I wanted an F# on the first note pull, and the reeds showed up as an E on the pull. So it must be standard unless otherwise specified?

I assume it is the current standard.  The few 1-row reed sets I've ordered have been like that, anyway.

Quote
With regard to first button pull on a D box.
As a rough guide, English and Cajun music requires pull A.
Irish and Quebecois requires pull B.

I agree about usefulness of pull B for Québecois music, but it's not all that common here (= Quebec).  The pull A is more usual, or so it seems to me.

 
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Rees

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Re: Layout question on 1 rows
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2020, 08:18:38 PM »



I agree about usefulness of pull B for Québecois music, but it's not all that common here (= Quebec).  The pull A is more usual, or so it seems to me.

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying, tirpous
Mostly Ireland then for the pull B.
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