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Author Topic: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed  (Read 8754 times)

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stevejay

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RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« on: October 05, 2009, 03:22:06 PM »

I would like to find a YT video (or something) demonstrating RH fingering techniques for a 2 row "quint" box. Need to rethink my RH a little, since I have learned completely on my own, I would be curious to observe better players at a slow speed.

So the topic is good RH finger habits. I have the Mally book, but it is wordy to an extreme, and although I didn't think I had ADD, he makes me reconsider..

By the way, I DO like Mally productions, they are very helpful, and there's not much like them for melodeon friendly tunebooks.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 03:44:41 PM by stevejay »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 06:59:23 PM »

Read your contributions elsewhere. Steve, we've all been beginners once and a lot of it is doing somewhat different things with the two hands. Like you I thought I'd learn from the masters - I tried to get front seats on the RH side of Cutting and Kirkpatrick at gigs  ::)

8)   OK - you've done the basic initiation rites so it 's time to disclose the Craft Secret. It's not really about right hand at all. That's only the silly old tune - but the real music comes from the left. So does the rhythm. So does the drive.  When you learn a new piece focus on left until you can do it. Only then move to the right end.  Your left won't be perfect, and probably not yet automatic. But it'll do - and it'll improve.
8)   RH fingering is then basically about fudging the tune over workable LH chord runs. You've got a lot of chordage both ways. D, C and Em (E,G,B,D) as a substitute for G (G,B,D).  So if it won't work on pull change the chord to a pull one. If neither work  :-\ play it brazenly over a short silence, or dab/drone in a bass. KEEP THAT RHYTHM GOING (which is IMHO why Sandy's Speed the Plough is so nice).
8)   Hope I've demonstrated why RH fingering is not the be all and end all for tunes. You have to use the notes where you can find them. Sometimes that's up/down a row. Sometimes the tune plays itself as a broken chord. Remember to test out both rows for this simple trick and also learn where the RH C and Am pull chords live (hint: across the rows, differ by just one button)
8)   Once you can knock out some tunes and developed some of that all important "can do" you can introduce RH technique. Now that's a different matter and is about style and embelishment. Playing short or long note, 2 together, 2 together briefly resolve to one the list is endless.
8)   You can roll that trouser leg down again now, young fella  ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 07:01:05 PM by chrisryall »
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HallelujahAl

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 07:10:08 PM »

Quote
the real music comes from the left. So does the rhythm. So does the drive
Bit of a broad brush here Chris - the majority of Irish box players never even touch the LH side unless it's to expel air, and there's no shortage of real music, rhythm and drive (whatever that is). One of my faves in this regard is Tim Edey - what he can do on a standard D/G melodeon is outstanding. AL
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Owen Woods

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 07:24:26 PM »

I would agree with Chris when it comes to English music and with Al when it comes to Irish... I've found that I can't play Irish music with basses, whatever I try, whereas I can't play English music without :D
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stevejay

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 07:47:46 PM »

I may look at the Mally book more closely. He could have put in some exercises to demonstrate his ideas, but it has to be deciphered in his fairly long descriptions under the tunes. Patience jackass, patience (refers to a joke you may/may not know)
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Steve C.

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 11:12:13 PM »

The Mally books can be good.  Unless you have a teacher to show you, it would take a long time to figure out some essential techniques, like shifting hand (finger) positions.  Did you get the CD that goes with it?  The CD helped me a lot.

Also, in support of learning the left hand "first", I have found that when trying to learn complicated tunes, it is a comfort to be able to at least get the LH going, which is usually easier to learn than the RH.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 07:56:31 AM »

I would agree with Chris when it comes to English music and with Al when it comes to Irish... I've found that I can't play Irish music with basses, whatever I try, whereas I can't play English music without :D

 8)  So that's why I can't play Irish

Part of the problem for beginners (like me) is I assumed the RH fingering to be easy and intuitive. I need to step back and realize some of my technique which is done "on the fly" is not going to help in the long haul and when the tunes get trickier.

8)  I concur:   For any run of say 3-4 specific notes you've got to be able to find them in either direction. Sometimes that's just not possible - hence so many boxes with reversed note buttons. Or you may need to do a rock on that D/E button (B/C types does this sort of thing a lot). Just keep some favourite 'can do' tunes moving and look for ways to play parts of them them other direction - excellent digit practice.

 8)   Sensible chord swaps are as above and I'd say the one to start on is to consciously play over and Em pull rather than G push. It immediately changes feel = instant variations.  Don't worry if you can't get every single note as per score - it's only 'tune'. No one will notice.
 
Masonic one row in G

Take Steve below on the post below with a pinch of salt - how dare he defer >:E  He's talking about one-row technique which I'd term an embelishment and style issue (and a very important one). But axiomatically there in only one way to do the fingering on a one-row  :Ph [edit-2] OK Steve, you're forgiven  :-*
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:42:14 AM by chrisryall »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 08:34:41 AM »

8)   OK - you've done the basic initiation rites so it 's time to disclose the Craft Secret. It's not really about right hand at all. That's only the silly old tune - but the real music comes from the left. So does the rhythm. So does the drive.  When you learn a new piece focus on left until you can do it. Only then move to the right end.  Your left won't be perfect, and probably not yet automatic. But it'll do - and it'll improve.
8)   RH fingering is then basically about fudging the tune over workable LH chord runs. You've got a lot of chordage both ways. D, C and Em (E,G,B,D) as a substitute for G (G,B,D).  So if it won't work on pull change the chord to a pull one. If neither work  :-\ play it brazenly over a short silence, or dab/drone in a bass. KEEP THAT RHYTHM GOING (which is IMHO why Sandy's Speed the Plough is so nice).
8)   Hope I've demonstrated why RH fingering is not the be all and end all for tunes. You have to use the notes where you can find them. Sometimes that's up/down a row. Sometimes the tune plays itself as a broken chord. Remember to test out both rows for this simple trick and also learn where the RH C and Am pull chords live (hint: across the rows, differ by just one button)
I'd just like to add a caveat rider to some of this.
Mostly I agree with some of what you say, Chris. But not all. Always sticking to a harmonically correct LH (whatever that might mean) can lead to over-smooth, 'precious' playing on the RH, with too much cross-rowing than is good for the tune. On the contrary - it can be perfectly valid to deliberately choose to 'ignore' the fancy basses/chords and concentrate on getting the RH melody rhythmic and punchy, usually be playing up-and-down the rows and using lots of bellows waggle. You can still usually get a good three-chord trick going on the LH using this approach, sometimes with the odd minor and minor-seventh chords thrown in as well, but it is the RH which drives the rhythm - if the basses/chords don't happen to be the 'correct' ones, well - tough! We'll use them anyway for their percussive, if not harmonic, effects.

One-row players have no choice in any case. They are stuck with two basses and chords only, on the tonic and dominant. Yet good English-style one-row players (Katie Howson and JK come to mind immediately) have tremendous rhythmic drive in their playing, because of their RH technique.

To summarise, I think I'm trying to say that in the end it depends on the style and sound that you want for the particular music you are playing at the time. Chris's approach is a very good one, but it's not the only way; there are other valid techniques too, especially for Morris and other English dance music. A good melodeon player will be aware of all these and will choose and adapt his/her style accordingly and as required.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:18:04 AM by Steve_freereeder »
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george garside

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 08:50:28 AM »

]
  so it 's time to disclose the Craft Secret. It's not really about right hand at all. That's only the silly old tune - but the real music comes from the left.   [
[/td][/tr][/table]

I disagree on this bit!  the rhythm must be inherent in the melody - anything done on the bass will either enhance  or bugger up the inherent rhythm that is an essential part of  music.  Fiddles, flutes, etc etc can be played with great rythm & without the 'benefit' of bass.

george :o
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Sebastian

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 09:12:24 AM »

the real music comes from the left. So does the rhythm. So does the drive.
I tend to agree with this, but it shurely depends on the musical tradition you come from.

And nothing should be conducted to the extreme. In my playing of the TOTM the right hand is completely without any "drive", the "drive" coming exclusively from the bass side. When you compare it to other examples, you will see that this does the tune no good.  :(
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 09:19:53 AM »

.... the rhythm must be inherent in the melody - anything done on the bass will either enhance  or bugger up the inherent rhythm that is an essential part of  music.  Fiddles, flutes, etc etc can be played with great rythm & without the 'benefit' of bass.
Yes - well said, George.
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 09:25:40 AM »

Take Steve below on the post below with a pinch of salt - how dare he defer >:E  He's talking about one-row technique which I'd term an embelishment and style issue (and a very important one). But axiomatically there in only one way to do the fingering on a one-row  :Ph [edit-2] OK Steve, you're forgiven  :-*
No, you misunderstand me. I'm not just talking about 1-row technique, I include 2-row (or more) technique too. The more I analyse this, the more I think George is spot on. The rhythmic drive comes from the melody, not the bass/chords.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 09:32:57 AM »

Quote
The more I analyse this, the more I think George is spot on. The rhythmic drive comes from the melody, not the bass/chords.
Amen! I think that was why I posted the reply that I did, showing Tim Edey doing just that. Drive is much more inherent in the melody I think.
AL
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Sebastian

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2009, 09:42:26 AM »

Drive is much more inherent in the melody I think.
Well, maybe. But to phrase the melodie, you use the bellows (inter alia). And the bellows are controlled by the left hand. Maybe that was the quintessence ...
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HallelujahAl

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2009, 09:53:03 AM »

Yes Sebastian - you're right, the power and 'drive' of the melodeon does very much come from the bellows movement, which as you say is generally controlled by the left hand. But the melodic phrasing is really within the remit of the right hand...
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nemethmik

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2009, 10:09:10 AM »

But to phrase the melodie, you use the bellows (inter alia). And the bellows are controlled by the left hand.
Very, very true, the real (and only) challenge (IMHO) in learning the melodeon is the synchronization of right and left hands when playing push-pull sequences of eighth notes upto speed.

A couple of years ago I was listening to a reputable folk-musicologist and he explained what are the key points of traditional dance music:
"Far the most important is the rhythm, the second one is the speed (tempo), the third one is the recognizability of the melody and the last one (completely optional) are the chords." He was talking about traditional dance music actually played for dancers.
I have no opinion; it's very interesting to read the smart comments about this "bass vs melody" topic.
Miki
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Chris Ryall

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2009, 12:09:24 PM »

Yes Sebastian - you're right, the power and 'drive' of the melodeon does very much come from the bellows movement, which as you say is generally controlled by the left hand. But the melodic phrasing is really within the remit of the right hand...

 8)  My point being that detail of the melody isn't critical (and further that chords are swapable/subject to arrangement).

      But get that bellows rhythm wrong and you're well stuffed

to Steve: I'll concede your point with the observation that chickens are easier to stuff than eggs.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 06:40:46 PM by chrisryall »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2009, 12:19:55 PM »

But get that bellows rhythm wrong and you're well stuffed
Yes - I quite agree with that. But it's the choice of RH fingering which allows you to get the bellows rhythm right. Or perhaps not so much getting the bellows rhythm 'right', rather getting it appropriate for the style/genre/character of the music you are playing. 

To waggle or not to waggle? That is the question......
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Lester

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2009, 12:29:37 PM »

Get a one row - removes all this need for navel gazing.    ;D

george garside

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Re: RH Fingering tutorial(s) needed
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2009, 03:12:56 PM »

if you can get people tapping their feet when they are listening to you playing a tune on the treble end only you are putting plenty of rhythm into the proceedings.  Try doing it on the bass without the treble!!

george ;)
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