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Author Topic: Scale studies  (Read 2656 times)

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Calum

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Scale studies
« on: December 18, 2020, 11:55:47 AM »

I started putting this together and thought it might be useful - it's a set of scale studies for chromatic(ish) boxes, inspired by a couple of comments I've seen on here by people saying they didn't really find that scales related to tune playing all that much. 

The text of the PDF explains what's going on in more detail, but basically it's a set of exercises which you can play in any/every key in order to familiarise yourself with each one.  If you do it comprehensively, it's a *lot* of material, so I would recommend the 'little and often' approach - ten minutes of these a day might be healthy, three hours perhaps less so! 

I would be grateful if any skilled music readers could run over it and check for musical typos - I've gone over it but I am sure errors still lurk.  Feedback and suggestions very welcome - I'm happy to update the document if people find it to be useful.  Likewise, feel free to share it - none of the ideas in here are original to me in any case. 
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Stiamh

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 03:01:08 PM »

This is serious stuff, Calum. My approach to playing chromatically is much more haphazard. On a good day I can play all the scales with little or no hesitation, and I like to try tunes that I happen to be learning in 2 or 3 different (less common) keys. Perhaps it's time for me to move on to the next stage with these exercises...

BTW I'm sure they can be addictive. I am reminded of a former neighbour of mine (lovely fellow, once a member of this forum), who spent nearly all his practice time exploring all the different scales available on his three-row ADG. He pretty well perfected them - fast and fluent. But he never seemed to get round to playing tunes nearly as well. He has since given up playing altogether as far as I know.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 08:24:46 PM by Stiamh »
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Calum

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 04:36:02 PM »

Oh yes, I'm sure there are people who have no need or wish to attempt things like these.  Sensible people :D 

Quote
who spent nearly all his practise time exploring all the different scales available on his three-row ADG. He pretty well perfected them - fast and fluent. But he never seemed to get round to playing tunes nearly as well.

I must admit this describes my piano playing rather well - but they tell me it will pay off in future, and you have to trust someone...
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BobM

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 07:25:49 PM »

Coming to the G/C after 50+ years in music, I'm little frustrated by not finding any scale material and drills that includes fingerings. I can play one row and cross row scales, but there may be better ways of practicing them. I wonder if the relevant info is to be found in French or German method books?
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Stiamh

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 08:20:15 PM »

Coming to the G/C after 50+ years in music, I'm little frustrated by not finding any scale material and drills that includes fingerings. I can play one row and cross row scales, but there may be better ways of practicing them. I wonder if the relevant info is to be found in French or German method books?

I know nothing about quint/quart boxes such as G/C, but if they're anything like semitone boxes as regards fingering, I think it's really up to you to experiment copiously and discover what works for you. Hand sizes and finger lengths are so different. I find following other people's suggested fingerings, well, unsatisfactory.

My own approach is to use fewer fingers rather than more and not to worry for an instant about keeping the hand in the same place for any length of time at all - move it, move it, move it. But that won't suit everybody, or possibly anybody else!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 08:23:11 PM by Stiamh »
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BobM

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 10:15:15 AM »


I know nothing about quint/quart boxes such as G/C, but if they're anything like semitone boxes as regards fingering, I think it's really up to you to experiment copiously and discover what works for you. Hand sizes and finger lengths are so different. I find following other people's suggested fingerings, well, unsatisfactory.


The melodeon may be one of those instruments that almost demands that you make it your own, but I'm more than happy to learn from other peoples experience if it saves some time and effort. You can discard knowledge much easier than acquire it?


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playandteach

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »

Exercises can be important on any instrument, as you well know, Bob. My issue has been the same as yours - the concept of scales is much more tricky on the melodeon - which is why there are so few published exercises compared to any other instrument. The very fact that there are so many options of where to play the notes makes scale transition to pieces at times almost counterproductive. Short patterns to create exercises is possibly better value, but you'll end up designing your own in the end.
No one has been able to point me to a really valuable published set.
Yes the Milleret and Pignol books work on some very good things but they are no replacement of things like the Taffanel and Gaubert flute books, or the Jean Jean Vade Mecum for clarinet etc.
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george garside

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2020, 10:57:19 AM »

learning 4th apart eg DG boxes is in many ways easier( exept for being push pull) than learnign semitone boxes eg bc cc#etc.

the 4th apart boxes are easy to get the hang of by playing in eg D or G on the row.   i.e plaay it as you would a mouthie!

Only when on the row playing has become as natural as whistling or humming a tune is it time to experiment with a bit of 'cross rowing'  to reduce in and outing  and get slightly improved bass harmony here and there.   

the 4th aprt boxes are intuitive and detailed knowledge of musical theory is not needed and can indeed be a handicap to some.

the semitone boxes ( aprt from being played in the home keys of the rows eg B and C)  require the learning and much practicing of  as many scales as you are likely to use eg FCGDAE  which again can be done without course to musical theory  by working out the scale from a keybord chart  and then treating it simply as the 'road' along which any tune goes back and forth.  Tunes containing 'accidentals' i.e. notes that are not part of the scale being used can be found either by refering to a keybord chart or just doing a bit of poking and prodding untill you find the right note which is never far away. 

worrying too much or atall about how its done with reference to musical theory can for many be counter productive  and indeed many very proficient players of both systems know little about musical theory and work on the basis of if it sounds right it is right!

george >:E ;)








c



« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 03:56:51 PM by george garside »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2020, 12:18:20 PM »

Spot on. My dot reading is weak so I’ve done this sort of thing by ear, and less than I should have. It … Might not help with “next tune” but is fundamental to tune variations and on to any sort of improvised line.

I think everyone on 2+ rows should do this exercise for at least their home (eg G,D,Em,E dorian, Bm) keys starting up and down, then in 3s as you have in the dots. Up and down again!  Into top octave, and also down into lower notes (it’s a lot of what 4th start is about).

Although that’s basically the D and G scales, in eg Bm you think differently, and in might choose to play more push notes as you cross row. Arpeggiating the chords also pays dividends, in the upper octave you have a choice.  Either repeat the 1,3,5, 7/tonic pattern or play extensions 9,11,13. Some are all there, some require a bellows flick unless you have a reverse D somewhere

In the end it becomes muscle memory, you can toss the little run into a tune in variation “as a phrase” with no active thought about actual notes

When I watched Phillipe Bruneau teach a protegé under a French chestnut tree, he was advocating the same on one row! Several of the scales there were partial, and so might some on 2+rows 🤔

Thanks for this thread. Agree wrt tunes (top post). This sort of exercise is about what you DO with a tune. 🙂

@playandteach P&M methode book 5 is all scales, designed for sight readers. All 12 main scales! X 7 modes each. partials like pentatonics, their modes, the Blues, its modes. Calum’s stepped note runs and the chords.

Symmetrics 3 diminished and 2 whole tones 👍 no modes! 🙂 But dawn has broken by now and you have to start over 😉

Hence “modes of your main 2 rows” above. A jazzer would do the lot every day, plus Coltrane phrases etc. But we tend to live longer …
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 01:33:08 PM by Chris Ryall »
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playandteach

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2020, 02:12:06 PM »

Chris, any chance of sharing a short extract - so I can see if it's worth it for me? Still boils down to which chord direction you're using, but I'd like to see it for when I finally get a 3 row.
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george garside

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2020, 01:26:26 AM »

perhaps  the term 'scale studies' is a bit off putting for those of a non classical background. Many or even most melodeon players just get on with getting the hang of playing in several scales , depending of course on what their instrument is capable of.

I find it extremely useful to  play tunes I know in a veriety of keys, one after t'other without a pause.  eg on a dg play in g, d and A (and relative minors).  on a BC play in bcfgdae and on a BCC# (the king of 'melodeons') play in all 12 keys with comparative ease.

Sometimes using words like'practice' or worse still 'studies'  can be off putting  - far better to just think in terms of playing the bloody thing  whilst constantly seeking to improve ones technique

one is a chore t'other is fun!

george


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BobM

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2020, 09:57:18 AM »

perhaps  the term 'scale studies' is a bit off putting for those of a non classical background. Many or even most melodeon players just get on with getting the hang of playing in several scales , depending of course on what their instrument is capable of.

I find it extremely useful to  play tunes I know in a veriety of keys, one after t'other without a pause.  eg on a dg play in g, d and A (and relative minors).  on a BC play in bcfgdae and on a BCC# (the king of 'melodeons') play in all 12 keys with comparative ease.

Sometimes using words like'practice' or worse still 'studies'  can be off putting  - far better to just think in terms of playing the bloody thing  whilst constantly seeking to improve ones technique

one is a chore t'other is fun!

george

I'm a believer in delayed gratification. I'm quite happy to take a few minutes of my remaining years to improve, polish or learn a musical detail that possibly adds to my abilities, at a minor cost in effort, if any. It's not black or white in my book, enjoyment or suffering.
The real effort is trying to find the same type of practice material that would be the norm for pretty much any other instrument, it works because it sells.
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Calum

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2020, 11:28:06 AM »

perhaps  the term 'scale studies' is a bit off putting for those of a non classical background.

Aye, it's not even quite the right word in classical terms for what these exercises are about - maybe I should call it "melodeon gymnastics" or the like!

On the topic of fingering options for certain notes, I didn't say anything about this because I'm completely unqualified to do so.  I have tried a couple of different ideas, like playing the scale once with all the push notes and once with all the pull notes.  I've also tried just playing each alternate as it appears going up the scale - so you end up playing (on B/C, say) C D E E F G A B B c.  Both useful I think but I suspect there's a better way. 

People obviously *learn* to systematically choose the "best" note in a given situation, and my thinking is if they can learn it, it can be taught.  So how would you actively teach this kind of thing? 
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Little Eggy

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2020, 11:51:19 AM »



I find it extremely useful to  play tunes I know in a veriety of keys, one after t'other without a pause.  eg on a dg play in g, d and A (and relative minors).  on a BC play in bcfgdae and on a BCC# (the king of 'melodeons') play in all 12 keys with comparative ease.

george

I’m from the ‘never played a scale in my life’ school but this looks like a great idea and I’m planning to do it more systematically.  At the moment I only do it when I have a tune in my head eg from a session and I am trying it out to quickly settle on the best key.
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george garside

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2020, 02:21:36 PM »

you have probably played scales or at least large chunks of themwithout thinking about scales  as many tunes consist  largely of 'chunks' of a scale with missing notes here and there.

familiarity with scales  greatly facilitates playing tunes by ear   as  auto pilot knows the location of eg 2 notes higher, 3 lower, 4 higher 3 of the same etc etc  . In other words the fingers operate without concious thought to provide the right notes in much the same way as the gob does when singing. i'e you dont have to tell it to open wider, purse lips , etc etc to get it to sing or hum a tune!!

george

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2020, 02:38:39 PM »

Chris, any chance of sharing a short extract - so I can see if it's worth it for me? Still boils down to which chord direction you're using, but I'd like to see it for when I finally get a 3 row.

Just for you and rather unrehearsed

1. My layout https://youtu.be/Sb7ji16N3uM

      G row =========
    D row ===========
   C# row source of accidentals. Pull F#s filed to F. Pull Cs to D
         (Both notes are there duplicated on the inner G row)

2  Nobody loves you https://youtu.be/ypt5tsHa4nI

    Chords Bb  D7  G7,  [Cm G7 rocked], Dbdim Bb G7, C7, F7 repeat
    Note nearly all dominant of dominant. Db (7 or dim)  is a substitution for G7

3 Shores of Old Blighty in G mixolydian  https://youtu.be/ZtoxwwA56Mg

   Chords “as you go along”  G(7) F(maj7) Dm(7),    Fsus once
   G mixo is 5th mode of C. The Fnat distinguishes it from G’s F# 👍
      and so I include an F in … nearly every chord (mostly my F/F button)
         if you’ve got it, flaunt it!

camera: Thea May

LAYOUT Rt end
Code: [Select]
      G/A   B/F♯    G/A   B/C  D/E    G/F♯   B/A    D/C   G/E
   F♯B  A/C♯    D/E   F♯/G   A/B   D/C♯   F♯/E   A/G    D/B   F♯/C♯
F/B♭ A♭/C   C♯/E♭  F/F   A♭/B♭  C♯/D  F/E♭  A♭/F♯  C♯/B♭   F/D    A♭/Eb
   

Bb is F Bb D (inversions and pull mostly)
D7 is F# A C D ditto
G7 is G B D F  PUSH
Cm is G C Eb
C#dim C# E G Bb
C7 is G C Bb
F7 is Eb F A C
F maj7 F A C E
Dm7 is F A C D
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 03:24:45 PM by Chris Ryall »
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playandteach

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2020, 04:59:06 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to make these videos, Chris. I'm not sure my head would cope with the accidentals on the outside - being a piano player - I'm used to reaching forwards for accidentals (in most keys). But then again, I wouldn't have the courage to sing either.
Box sounds absolutely lovely and it's good to see you playing.
Saw a lovely Matris for sale today, rather more money than I'm looking for but semi set up the way I'm hoping for. That would certainly get me practising scales.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2020, 07:03:07 PM »

The beauty of an 11, 10, 9 “accs”/D/G  layout is that you have more accidentals than buttons on main rows. I tried to confine myself to the F/F and F/Eb matter in debate. My idiosyncratic layout offers one in lower octave, the other in upper.

My point is that “basing” the accs helper row on Db: tritone of G = half a tone flat of D offers an unusually rich set of right end chords, particularly if you are cool about voicing them as inversions. I like G7 with the F below tonic, but also played it with a high F.  And as all 3 rows are diatonic, surprisingly often changing bellows direction on a chord makes another, useful chord 👍

Two rows with accs at head aspect is obviously more limited. In the end most of the flexibility of a rich source of accs (helper row) derives from an expanded bass end. It is the bass that sets context of a chord. Have you ever seen a jazz trio or string quartet without a bass, or cello, respectively? 🤔
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 07:11:21 PM by Chris Ryall »
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playandteach

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2020, 07:40:17 PM »

I can see that you've got it working for you and on a DG box, Chris. I'm not sure that I need more low accidentals on a GC box, or not on the tunes I'm looking at. Does sound gorgeous though. I'll look around for that volume 5 M and P scales book.
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george garside

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Re: Scale studies
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2020, 01:04:15 AM »

'melodeons' are historically and currentle 'folk' instruments and in comparison with chromatic 'clasical' instruments have sonsiderable limitations.  those who advocate a veriety of bespoke additional,mostly so called 'accidental' notes chosen to suite their particulor choice of music  are ok but  in so doing do not make the melodeon  into an instrument that can handle a wide range of 'classical' music

the joys of the simple  2 row melodeon be it dg,bc,cf or playing notedwhatever come from the somewhat majical ways we have of playing notes that are not there!!.  I wouod therfor suggest that such bods  transfer their affections to the piano accordion or the continental c or B system box which will meet their every need.

the other alternative to retain diatonicness and have the benefit of more or less chromasticity is of course the BCC# box which in one mans hands played to capacity ordiences in the carnegi hall , new york, the sidney opera house and the albert hall as well as to a number of royal veriety performances and balmoral ceilidhs.

It is chromatic  exept that it is imposible to play a G# chord because you can't come and go at the same time  !  it is of course the system that is poyed by the king of the british button box john kirkpatrick.

with apologies if anybody finds this boring as it was written  after a copious quantitiy  of ' lockdown falling aover juice'

george ( temporarily pistava newt


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