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[TapTheForwardAssist]

This is all extremely helpful so far, and I'll be able to use this info to inform potential melodeon novices with the collective insight here. I don't necessarily expect a massive flood of new players or anything, but I imagine of whoever reads my article, a scattering will be drawn to melodeon, and a handful will drift here, while maybe others go to equivalent forums for concertina, banjo, tinwhistle, etc. Apologies for the earlier link error which I have now fixed, and if I'm a little off on my knowledge on some of these things since I only dabble in melodeon (mainly play concertina and strings).

If I can try and summarize some of your collective key points to see I'm on-track:

• The top models of 2-row (or 1-row if one accepts the limitations) this forum would suggest looking out for on the used market (from reputable dealers/fettlers or known melodeon players) include: most notably the Hohner Erica, and also the Vienna, Pokerwork, HA-112/3/4, or if one values tiny, the Hohner Liliput or Preciosa. Generally the sub advises a fourth-apart box, and a C/F might be among the easier and cheaper to find, but a half-step box like a B/C or C/C# would be fine in its own way. For half-steps, is the main one to watch for the Hohner Double Ray/Black Dot? Thoughts on the Hohner Corso?
• For those on a budget, the "Linnet" may be acceptable? I assume it's made in China but decent QC? What about the Scarlatti or similar China-made instruments sold by Hobgoblin and whatnot?
• So is this forum generally not keen on novices even considering any of the inexpensive Italian or German brands like Weltmeister, Frontalini, etc? I've owned a few of each that I got for like US$75-125 (after phoning the eBay seller to hear it played and confirming it wasn't terrible), and I was pretty pleased for them at that price, but I'm just a tyro
• This forum has a list of dealers and refurbishers at http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,shops_repairers.html that are recognized by the community, so good place to check. Not to stir up any drama, but is there a reason Liberty Bellows of Philadelphia didn't make the list? Or Accordion-Doctor in the Netherlands?
• The forum at the moment isn't keen on the toy melodeons, though googling around shows me y'all had quite the Chanson Craze some years back. Duly noted, and I'm just a novice melodeon player but will continue to enjoy my modified toy melodeons (both done by myself or my one by Michael Usui). But a poster here did note that Smythe Accordions is selling rebuilds of a very similar Russian-made toy accordion, since the Russian equivalent is a better building foundation
• Fundamentally, there are decent deals to be had on used melodeons, and they're a relatively accessible instrument for even a novice. But buyers must be careful to buy from a reputable dealer or musician to avoid getting junk, and even with reputable brand must be aware that buying even a Hohner blind can turn out to require hundreds of dollars in improvements, if fixable at all. I did once buy a really old Hohner for next to nothing, took it to a fettler who told me ones that old weren't even really fixable economically, so even with the Hohner brand name, I take it buyers should stick to purchasing recognized not-ancient models of Hohner?

Is this a generally accurate sum-up of the prevailing wisdom so far in this thread, as applies to informing novice folk enthusiasts coming from the shanty craze, as to getting their first melodeon? I'm happy to be corrected on any points, just by hobby and by actual profession, compiling information is my jam, so just trying to get all the info in one place in an accessible way.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Nobody mentioned Saltarelle: Love 'em or hate 'em.
There are other makers who's boxes come up £500 or less, sometimes.

[Scobarandbar]

This is all extremely helpful so far, and I'll be able to use this info to inform potential melodeon novices with the collective insight here. I don't necessarily expect a massive flood of new players or anything, but I imagine of whoever reads my article, a scattering will be drawn to melodeon, and a handful will drift here, while maybe others go to equivalent forums for concertina, banjo, tinwhistle, etc. Apologies for the earlier link error which I have now fixed, and if I'm a little off on my knowledge on some of these things since I only dabble in melodeon (mainly play concertina and strings).

If I can try and summarize some of your collective key points to see I'm on-track:

• The top models of 2-row (or 1-row if one accepts the limitations) this forum would suggest looking out for on the used market (from reputable dealers/fettlers or known melodeon players) include: most notably the Hohner Erica, and also the Vienna, Pokerwork, HA-112/3/4, or if one values tiny, the Hohner Liliput or Preciosa. Generally the sub advises a fourth-apart box, and a C/F might be among the easier and cheaper to find, but a half-step box like a B/C or C/C# would be fine in its own way. For half-steps, is the main one to watch for the Hohner Double Ray/Black Dot? Thoughts on the Hohner Corso?
• For those on a budget, the "Linnet" may be acceptable? I assume it's made in China but decent QC? What about the Scarlatti or similar China-made instruments sold by Hobgoblin and whatnot?
• So is this forum generally not keen on novices even considering any of the inexpensive Italian or German brands like Weltmeister, Frontalini, etc? I've owned a few of each that I got for like US$75-125 (after phoning the eBay seller to hear it played and confirming it wasn't terrible), and I was pretty pleased for them at that price, but I'm just a tyro
• This forum has a list of dealers and refurbishers at http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,shops_repairers.html that are recognized by the community, so good place to check. Not to stir up any drama, but is there a reason Liberty Bellows of Philadelphia didn't make the list? Or Accordion-Doctor in the Netherlands?
• The forum at the moment isn't keen on the toy melodeons, though googling around shows me y'all had quite the Chanson Craze some years back. Duly noted, and I'm just a novice melodeon player but will continue to enjoy my modified toy melodeons (both done by myself or my one by Michael Usui). But a poster here did note that Smythe Accordions is selling rebuilds of a very similar Russian-made toy accordion, since the Russian equivalent is a better building foundation
• Fundamentally, there are decent deals to be had on used melodeons, and they're a relatively accessible instrument for even a novice. But buyers must be careful to buy from a reputable dealer or musician to avoid getting junk, and even with reputable brand must be aware that buying even a Hohner blind can turn out to require hundreds of dollars in improvements, if fixable at all. I did once buy a really old Hohner for next to nothing, took it to a fettler who told me ones that old weren't even really fixable economically, so even with the Hohner brand name, I take it buyers should stick to purchasing recognized not-ancient models of Hohner?

Is this a generally accurate sum-up of the prevailing wisdom so far in this thread, as applies to informing novice folk enthusiasts coming from the shanty craze, as to getting their first melodeon? I'm happy to be corrected on any points, just by hobby and by actual profession, compiling information is my jam, so just trying to get all the info in one place in an accessible way.

This has been a great thread so thank you for starting it and I hope you share your experiences and keep posting on here for us all to read later. You sum it up well but there are one or two points you might want to consider.

I think if you have the money you could consider a more expensive box but I think many on here are well aware of buying something expensive and it not being the right instrument or in the wrong key(s) for your voice so they are looking out for you in the nicest possible way

There are beginners on here who have expensive boxes and love and learn on them so if you have/want to spend the money go for it!  Life’s too short.  I think your initial question perhaps implied spending a bit less money though.  All of the buying mistakes have been made already (by me especially)

Regarding older Hohners.....My D/G is 90 years old and had the full works when it was fettled by one of the restorers on here and it sounds sublime so the restorer who told you that was not correct.    Older Hohners can be fettled perfectly and parts obtained but it all comes down to expense on what needs doing to it. A cheaper 4th apart one from say, Germany can be a great instrument to start with as a base as they are readily available.  People on here have cupboards full of them waiting to be fettled!

Another thought...perhaps if you had a search or even spoke to a singer/singing teacher they would be able to advise on your voice range and then you could come back and ask on here which box to buy if you were to go for a 4th apart one. That might save some messing about later, selling and buying again? 

Whatever box you decide upon I can confidently say you are in for a great learning experience and a few lessons can certainly speed up that first part of it.   

Nothing wrong with Liberty bellows Or Acc- Doc.  I think the list could go on forever if you included every restorer in the world. 

[TapTheForwardAssist]

Okay, I have launched my article on r/seashanties on Reddit:

Taking up a traditional musical instrument to play sea shanties and sea songs (for total novices or experienced musicians)

https://www.reddit.com/r/seashanties/comments/l663kx/taking_up_a_traditional_musical_instrument_to/

No pressure, but if anyone wants to sanity-check what I wrote about melodeons, I can easily edit it if I'm off in my interpretations of the wisdom of this community.

[Helena Handcart]

You assert  'Commonly people buy the 30-button Anglo, because most concertina buyers play Irish music and you want 30 for that'

Do you have any evidence for that?

[Matthew B]

if anyone wants to sanity-check what I wrote about melodeons, I can easily edit it if I'm off in my interpretations of the wisdom of this community
"opening it up and making some minor tweaks . . . afaik nobody has bothered to make a proper tutorial"

Lester Bailey's Hohner Hot Rodding videos are here

Paul Young has a demo on taping thirds here

Theo Gibb has workshop stories here

There is a whole section of Melnet devoted to instrument design construction and repair here

[baz parkes]

Regarding your comments re older Hohners...and this is purely a personal opinion. Some years ago we were burgled and my Saltarelle was stolen. I needed a replacement quickly as we had a series of ceiliidh bookings  coming up. I purchased a Hohner Pressedwood from a well known dealer on the forum.
Since playing her on that first gig I remain convinced the burglar did me a favour...

[Anahata]

You assert  'Commonly people buy the 30-button Anglo, because most concertina buyers play Irish music and you want 30 for that'

Do you have any evidence for that?

I don't know about the customer/type of music statistics*, but I'd agree that most players of Irish music on Anglo concertinas like 30 button instruments because they have all the notes they need to play in G and D on a C/G instrument, but no superfluous weight. (36 or 40 keys on an Anglo are mostly for more flexibility with chords)

*when I started out in folk music, the first three Anglo concertina players I ever heard were John Kirkpatrick, Colin Cater (who typically played morris tunes and sang songs with it) and William Kimber, and I'd heard Alistair Anderson playing Irish tunes on EC. I thought the idea of playing Irish music on an Anglo was a joke. How wrong I was!

[Helena Handcart]

I don't know about the customer/type of music statistics*, but I'd agree that most players of Irish music on Anglo concertinas like 30 button instruments because they have all the notes they need to play in G and D on a C/G instrument, but no superfluous weight.

The assertion I was questioning was that most concertina players play Irish music, although now that I read it again I'd also question the claim that this is the reason for the popularity of 30 button models. So that's two assertions I would question then 

[Helena Handcart]

Mind you 'Anglo is hands-down the traditional choice of sailors' and 'The English externally looks similar [to the anglo]'  are also making my inner pedant twitch.  Luckily I have my concertina lesson at 6pm so I must be away from here....

[Chris Ryall]

IS it, Helena? I agree with Anne that most music at sea was fiddle, and with several others that steel reeds might rust.

Anglos emerged mid 19th century, just as steam power was emerging. I’d offer that the heyday of shanties was a bit earlier?  I’ll look if Stan Huggill says anything, but he was another 60 years beyond that … 1906-92

[Roger Hare]

The assertion I was questioning was that most concertina players play Irish music, although now that I read it again
I'd also question the claim that this is the reason for the popularity of 30 button models. So that's two assertions I
would question then 

I'm a little uneasy about this too. It's seems to be very common for potential new (concertina) players to assume
that the only music which a concertina is used for is ITM. They also assume that ITM is the only music worth playing.
Why this should be so, I'm not sure. I've even seen statements which seem to be claiming that the concertina is an
Irish invention. I usually try (gently) to point out that there are alternatives...

[Helena Handcart]

IS it, Helena? I agree with Anne that most music at sea was fiddle, and with several others that steel reeds might rust.

Anglos emerged mid 19th century, just as steam power was emerging. I’d offer that the heyday of shanties was a bit earlier?  I’ll look if Stan Huggill says anything, but he was another 60 years beyond that … 1906-92

Nope, we're making the same point here Chris  It was the OP that made that statement in the Reddit article, and little ol' me that winced a bit.

[Peadar]

Steam power was emerging by 1820, but sail lasted in the British Merchant Marine until the early 1900's. Pumping was a big issue - but Prof James Gordon of Reading University- who started out as a naval architect, wrote* that as late as the 1920's Norwegian shipowners were making money buying up old sailers and fitting them with windmill pumps.

*c.1965 and somewhere in his book "The New Science of Strong Materials" if I remember rightly.

Anyway - I believe the below is Liverpool docks in the 1880's.

[CAB]

As I said earlier, one authority I came across suggested that the heyday of shanties (though presumably not their origin) was when sailing ships needed to work more efficiently to compete with steam.  But that's irrelevant to the squeezebox debate as the singing would have been unaccompanied.

Having played both English and anglo concertinas on and off for 40+ years, it always makes me smile (read "snarl") when I hear anglos described as "Irish concertinas".  Better terms would be working class or "folk" concertina, as distinct from the upper and middle class English system, even if the anglo was an attempt to make the German instrument more chromatic and flexible.  They were played in England, America, Australia and elsewhere.  Read Dan Worrall's House Dance if you want the detail.  "Irish concertina" makes sense as a name for the style + repertoire rather than the instrument.  Like Anahata, I started by listening to Ali Anderson's English and William Kimber and (Scan Tester) on anglo, so I tried to play Kimber style anglo for morris and more acrobatic stuff on English.  When I first heard Chris Droney on the radio, I honestly though he was playing an EC - I had no idea you could do that on an anglo.  Noel Hill was a revelation.  I still find fast reels a lot easier on the EC, though your bellows work has to be good to avoid the dreaded legato mush.

As for numbers,  the popularity of Irish-style anglo certainly accounted for the rapid rise in the price of that system and it's probably true that more are sold for that purpose.  Marcus told me years ago that he could make a batch of anglos, drive the van to Ireland and sell them to virtually the first music shop he came to.

[Pearse Rossa]

...the sub advises a fourth-apart box, and a C/F might be among the easier and cheaper to find, but a half-step box like a B/C or C/C# would be fine in its own way...

Is this a generally accurate sum-up of the prevailing wisdom so far in this thread...

So, you've tagged on the semitone system almost as an afterthought?
I haven't read your piece on Reddit yet, but if you're offering advice on melodeons to potential newcomers,
I would think it desirable to point out that the semitone system is chromatic. The standard 2 row fourth apart
system is not.

[Pearse Rossa]

(read "snarl") when I hear anglos described as "Irish concertinas".  Better terms would be working class or "folk" concertina, as distinct from the upper and middle class English system..

You may snarl all you want. As regards a class system; that is very much a British thing. We don't have a class
system in the Republic of Ireland. We got rid of it when we won the War of Independence.

Read Dan Worrall's House Dance if you want the detail.  "Irish concertina" makes sense as a name for the style + repertoire rather than the instrument.

I have. It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier.

[-Y-]

You may snarl all you want. As regards a class system; that is very much a British thing. We don't have a class
system in the Republic of Ireland. We got rid of it when we won the War of Independence.

Well, I doubt very much that the Republic of Ireland is now free of any social class. Who knew we had an anarchist/communist class-free (or devoid any aspect of society, doesn't need to be that specific) country that close to us all that time?

[CAB]

(read "snarl") when I hear anglos described as "Irish concertinas".  Better terms would be working class or "folk" concertina, as distinct from the upper and middle class English system..

You may snarl all you want. As regards a class system; that is very much a British thing. We don't have a class
system in the Republic of Ireland. We got rid of it when we won the War of Independence.

Read Dan Worrall's House Dance if you want the detail.  "Irish concertina" makes sense as a name for the style + repertoire rather than the instrument.

I have. It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier.

But surely we're discussing a period pre-Irish independence.  And Ireland assuredly had a polite society with its associated music played in drawing rooms as distinct from the dance and popular music of the ordinary people.  I was merely pointing out that the German, and later anglo-german, system was better suited to the latter, while the English system was adopted mainly by those who played classical music.

Well, I doubt very much that the Republic of Ireland is now free of any social class. Who knew we had an anarchist/communist class-free (or devoid any aspect of society, doesn't need to be that specific) country that close to us all that time?

Quite!

[Steve_freereeder]

I would think it desirable to point out that the semitone system is chromatic. The standard 2 row fourth apart
system is not....

...fully chromatic, but it has sufficient chromaticism to deal with most traditional tunes. In addition, the congruence between the bellows directions, the tuning of the fourth-apart rows, and the left-hand basses and chords, make it a very satisfying system to play right from the start, and gives a tremendous rhythmic drive which is ideal for playing for dancing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SejM6wB17w&ab_channel=anahatamelodeon