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Author Topic: IV voice B/C boxes.  (Read 3678 times)

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Keithypete.

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IV voice B/C boxes.
« on: October 23, 2009, 11:46:36 AM »

I am looking at two IV voice B/C boxes, both have LMMM reeds. Is it possible to go LMMH or not? Would there be any point? One is a Mengascini, the other a red Poalo Soprani from - & I'm guessing late 80s/early 90s. Both have two couplers/switches.
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Stiamh

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 02:02:00 PM »

If there are only two couplers chances are they merely cut out the low reeds. Meaning your piccolo voice would alway be on. (You can hear an MMH sound on Jackie Daly's Many a wild night CD from the 1990s.) if I had a LMMH box I'd like to be able to use just the medium voices.

A friend of mine has a Saltarelle Shamrock B/C which he ordered LMMH (being used to that configuration as a one-row player). There is a stop for every voice. To my ear having them all on is a bit brash. But I really enjoy being able to try all the different permutations possible.

Keithypete.

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 02:21:14 PM »

So would the three M voices be wet-ish tuned as 'standard', or would you have two fairly close and one a bit further out? Sorry if this is all a bit general but there is quite a bit of travelling involved to even try them. Cheers. :|glug
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Borsini - G,D,A.
Pokerwork B/C.
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Stiamh

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2009, 01:41:00 AM »

So would the three M voices be wet-ish tuned as 'standard', or would you have two fairly close and one a bit further out?

I didn't reply earlier - was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to chime in. But yes, both schemes you describe are fairly common, I think. For the wettish scenario, you could have one voice at A=440Hz and the others an equal amount sharp or flat - anything from 7 to 25 cents or more. Or less. And yes, you could have two very close together and one a bit sharp. And probably lots of other choices too. I don't know much about all this tuning business (an assertion Bertrand Gaillard's tuner would probably be happy to confirm :D  ) and things do get more complicated with three voices in the same register.

triskel

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2009, 03:28:51 AM »

I am looking at two IV voice B/C boxes, both have LMMM reeds. Is it possible to go LMMH or not?

I only know of two 4-voice Irish accordions with a LMMH set-up, but they were both made (for O'Byrne de Witt, by Paolo Soprani) in D/C# for the Irish-American market, in the 1940s - I own one of them now, and I used to own the other! (It's the box in my present avatar.) Otherwise they're always LMMM.

If there are only two couplers chances are they merely cut out the low reeds. Meaning your piccolo voice would alway be on. (You can hear an MMH sound on Jackie Daly's Many a wild night CD from the 1990s.) if I had a LMMH box I'd like to be able to use just the medium voices.

The two couplers on mine give you either LMMH, or MM, cutting out the piccolo reed along with the bassoon one.

So would the three M voices be wet-ish tuned as 'standard' ...

Yes, you get more "cut" that way, and the Italians seem not to understand if you ask for anything else...

Keithypete.

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2009, 12:19:40 PM »

Thanks for that. More couplers = more weight I suppose, but would solve certain problems. I like the idea of the LMMH set-up, with the option to take out the L & H. Could one set of M reeds be replaced by a set of piccolo reeds, or would it mean too nuch reed block work/alteration? The Soprani I'm looking at is almost certainly not a 'desirable' one but it looks the part, and is no doubt a good box. I'd be over-doing it a bit if I bought a proper Paolo, or one of the re-issue Greys.
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Beltuna Sara II - B/C flavour.
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Theo

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 01:46:42 PM »

Fitting an extra coupler to take out the piccolo reed would be the hardest part,
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pgroff

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 09:05:17 PM »

Hi all,

Here (attached below) is another one of those O'Byrne DeWitt Paolo Sopranis that is also 4 voice, LMMH, and again the coupler takes out both the piccolo and the basson reed to leave MM tuned celeste.

It's a great sound and one of my favorite accordions.

Like Steve, I have seen modern Irish accordions in B/C that were commissioned with LMMH. I think I remember hearing that Billy McComiskey was doing something like that when he was playing Saltarelles, but I have to admit it is a vague memory of something someone told me. I don't know Billy and haven't had many chances to hear him play in person.

But I also have .... I guess it's a "Scottish accordion." What the biologists would call a "hopeful monster," of a type that seems not to have caught on among players.  It is labeled Wilkinson's Diaton V and is a 5 voice LMMMH. Presumably this is the distant descendant of the Wilkinson's Excelsior B/C with 24 Stradella basses played by William Hannah in the 1920s. The Diaton V is a modified B/C/C# layout (modified in the sense that a couple of the notes deviate from the standard scale for some rows, allowing less duplication of same-direction notes and more reverse-direction options). The Bass side is 12 buttons set up in a rectangular array like a Corona, but giving the same notes on push and pull and with basses on the inside row next to the triad of that note. Sort of a stradella bass forced into the procrustean bed of a 6 X 2 rectangle.  

Anyway, the 5 voices give every option for just octave tunings in three octaves, plus two extra voices to provide musette in the MMM reeds. If weight and cost were not a consideration, this definitely gives a lot of sounds. I especially like the LH combination (favored by some melodeon players) for some effects.

Unfortunately my 1920 Wilkinson's Excelsior and this 5 voice (1960s?) Wilkinson's Diaton V are in storage and I can't photo them now, but here is the LMMH O'Byrne DeWitt Paolo Soprani:

« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 09:07:58 PM by pgroff »
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triskel

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 03:18:21 AM »

Here (attached below) is another one of those O'Byrne DeWitt Paolo Sopranis that is also 4 voice, LMMH, and again the coupler takes out both the piccolo and the basson reed to leave MM tuned celeste.

Hi Paul,

That's interesting, my present one (which was formerly John Brosnan's) and the one I used to have (which is now John Brosnan's - long story!) are both the same model, with the metal grille, just like the one Jerry O'Brien is holding in the famous (1947?) photo of him with his pupil Joe Derrane:


Yours appears to be a slightly later model, from around 1952, whilst the one below, the next model of grey from about 1953-4, is tuned LMMM.

pgroff

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 09:15:18 AM »

Hi Stephen,

There are still a fair number of those D/C# 19 key, 4 bass O'Byrne DeWitt Paolos floating around the Boston area. Quite a few came into my little teaching studio and music shop that I used to run there. Most I would say have the aluminum grille, and quite a few are only 2 voices with no coupler. There are also some of these out around Springfield, Massachusetts where I also used to teach, and a very similar model was sold in Chicago by an accordion distributor there. One collector I know has a few of the Chicago imports.

But I don't think there are very many of the exact model I have, with the diamond-pattern celluloid-covered grille. Actually the metal grille ones probably have a better balance and inside-row brightness, but the keyboard action and general construction is exceptional on this black one. I have seen a certain number of "normal" Irish style Paolos with that diamond grille.... I think Andrew MacNamara had one when he was playing in Boston some years back, and some other excellent players seem to like them. Do you reckon *all of them with that grille pattern* are 1952s?

Just from the tuning of mine (which was original when I got it, little playing, no rust, original leathers in perfect shape) I would have guessed earlier than 1952. It is in A 447, which pitch must have been declining in favor by the 1950s..... Most of the 1950s celluloid Paolos I find in the U.S. that are still in original pitch seem to be more around A 443.

Back to the black one, played as a D/C#, the outside row is bright and the inside row is muted, as you would expect. With the reeds swapped to C#/D (which I did for a while), this leaves the D row a little dull, so I would play it without the grille which was really crisp and snappy on both rows. So someday I may get an aluminum grille made for this one to try to optimize the timbre and balance while protecting the action.
On the other hand, a mellow inside-row sound has its own traditional Paolo quality anyway.

Those 2 voice versions of these 19-keys are really fun, and because with those, the pallet holes are more centered in the soundboard, the balance in timbre between rows is much better than with the 4 voice ones. Can't maximize every feature of an accordion at the same time! But the 4 voice ones sound plenty good, especially grille-off.

PG

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hibbs3

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Re: IV voice B/C boxes.
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 02:53:52 PM »

The button Box just sold this one not too long ago, also in LMMH :

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