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Author Topic: Discussions about how TOTM works  (Read 8025 times)

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Fidjit

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Discussions about how TOTM works
« on: December 01, 2009, 11:16:04 AM »

Clive

Just a suggestion.
Would be nice if the tunes nominated were linked to a listenable file of some kind.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 08:15:09 PM by Clive Williams »
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Clive Williams

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 11:39:15 AM »

Clive

Just a suggestion.
Would be nice if the tunes nominated were linked to a listenable file of some kind.

I agree... but that's assumes the nominator's provided something! Certainly having a video/sound file/abc of anything obscure greatly increases its chance of making it into the poll and winning...

I should probably include a link to the nominating posting, shouldn't I, since that should have the video/abc/etc attached...

Cheers,

Clive

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 03:58:49 PM »

And I think that providing an ABC should be necessary for a tune's inclusion.
Hmmmm...
I think I will disagree with this. However helpful it might be to some, not everyone reads music or abc. It would be exclusive to insist on dots before a tune could be nominated. There are a good number of others who would probably be willing to help out in the case of someone not being able to provide music or abc.

I see you've nominated Waterman's Hornpipe. Good choice, but what would you have done if I hadn't previously transcribed it into abc for you? Neither the music nor the abc appear to be available on the interweb. And BTW, thanks for the acknowledgment.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 04:36:28 PM »

And I think that providing an ABC should be necessary for a tune's inclusion.
Hmmmm...
I think I will disagree with this. However helpful it might be to some, not everyone reads music or abc. It would be exclusive to insist on dots before a tune could be nominated. There are a good number of others who would probably be willing to help out in the case of someone not being able to provide music or abc.

I see you've nominated Waterman's Hornpipe. Good choice, but what would you have done if I hadn't previously transcribed it into abc for you? Neither the music nor the abc appear to be available on the interweb. And BTW, thanks for the acknowledgment.

Did I not acknowledge it? Sorry  :|bl Sterling work. If you hadn't transcribed it then I would have had to do it and it would have taken me ages.

What I really meant was that before a tune could be a contender it should have an ABC. So the person nominating it wouldn't necessarily have to provide it, but I don't think that it is fair on insisting that everybody learn something from ear, as it's not something that all are used to. Some read ABC, more read dots, but the two can be converted easily. So for a tune to make it into the poll there needs to be an ABC available, or it isn't fair.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 04:45:42 PM »

Shouldn't this be left to the 'editorial'? If a number of tunes go into the hat and a decision is made about the final list, and then it's upto the editorial team (i.e. Clive, Lester - as well as other members of the forum) to come up with the dots/ABC etc for the winning tune? I think that's the way it's working, anyway. I don't think it necessarily should be the case that a forum member's nomination should also be accompanied by dots or ABC (though that is helpful), as there are many on this forum who don't bother with either as Steve has pointed out.

Anyway - I do believe that in a number of case the final TOTM has simply been a springboard/starting point for many fine performances some of which (in my case anyway) bear no absolutely no relation to any dots or ABC notation  ;D
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Lester

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 04:49:33 PM »

and then it's upto the editorial team (i.e. Clive, Lester - as well as other members of the forum) to come up with the dots/ABC etc for the winning tune?

Almost totally disagree with this (in a fully supportive manner). If someone wants to punt a tune for the ToTM they must supply ABCs or youTube or equivalent so people can make a judgement.

Clive Williams

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 05:09:22 PM »

And I think that providing an ABC should be necessary for a tune's inclusion.

Providing a video/abc is recommended, but not compulsory, and is initially more for my benefit than anything else. I choose tunes for the poll according to a whole mix of factors, including providing a varied choice, and tunes that I think have a reasonable chance of winning. I know quite a lot of tunes, so there's not really much benefit in providing me with the dots to Princess Royal for example, because I know it already. Oh, and I can't read music.  ;D

If a tune is obscure and I haven't heard it, and can't find it on youtube or any of my ABC libraries, then I really need to have something to listen to before I can add it to the poll. If the world out there doesn't know it or can't find it easily, it's not going to stand much chance of winning the poll - and so there's no point putting it in.

But apart from tunes I haven't heard of, it's only really when a tune is in the poll where it becomes useful to have dots/videos available. Last month where we posted 4 or 5 abc/videos in response to 'how does this go then' queries, and that's not a problem - we have plenty of people who can and do provide extra info when needed!

Of course when a tune wins, it absolutely does need videos and ABCs available... so they're provided as a priority (thanks Lester by the way for those ABCs on Princess Royal; they're fantastic!)

Cheers,

Clive

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Re: Future Suggestions Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 06:37:58 PM »

Did I not acknowledge it? Sorry  :|bl Sterling work. If you hadn't transcribed it then I would have had to do it and it would have taken me ages.
Apologies for my earlier sarcastic comment. I've just had a whole load of my ABC transcriptions nicked by a dance side without so much as a 'by your leave', so I am feeling a bit over-sensitive.

Quote
What I really meant was that before a tune could be a contender it should have an ABC. So the person nominating it wouldn't necessarily have to provide it, but I don't think that it is fair on insisting that everybody learn something from ear, as it's not something that all are used to.
I wasn't suggesting for one minute that everybody learn the tunes by ear.

Quote
Some read ABC, more read dots, but the two can be converted easily. So for a tune to make it into the poll there needs to be an ABC available, or it isn't fair.
I'm not sure where 'it isn't fair' comes in to it. TOTM is not (as far as I'm aware) a competition.
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GbH

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Re: Discussions about how TOTM works
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 10:46:43 PM »

To my way of thinking, the most useful reference media for TOTM submissions are formats that give just the basic information about what the core of tune is - so, that's ABC, PDF manuscripts, MIDI and suchlike.  ABC seems particularly useful, as it can be easily converted or listened to without the user having to know the first thing about reading it.

Videos and audio recordings, though, give not just the tune but someone's interpretation.  Thus, it's quite possible that if someone is going to be learning from it, they're going to be picking up some (or all  :o) of that performance's nuances and style.  In general playing, I don't think this is much of a problem - I assume it's a well established way of passing tunes on.  However, for TOTM, if lots of people end up doing the same thing because they've all learned from the same recording, I think there's a danger that the variety that we've previously seen might start to to diminish.  For me, it's much easier to add ideas to a basic form, rather than have to start by stripping away someone else's ideas in order to achieve a clean starting point.

I realise that not everyone thinks like this and that over the last two months, some people have independently sought out recordings to learn from, as that's how they prefer to go about things.   However, even this hasn't been so much of a problem, as at least there would have been a fair chance that contributors will have learned from different recordings.  What I would fear would be that just one recording is offered as the sole resource for learning the tune.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Discussions about how TOTM works
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 09:21:52 AM »

Quote
What I would fear would be that just one recording is offered as the sole resource for learning the tune.

Totally agree!

Quote
TOTM is not (as far as I'm aware) a competition.
That is what I was afraid of...surely it's much more of an opportunity for forum members to learn and or experiment with tunes - some familiar and some not so. So far we've had two Morris Dancing tunes and a modern French composed Mazurka selected by the forum, all three of which are 'common' session tunes played at a lot of 'English' pub sessions. None of which is terribly surprising given the majority of forum members appear to me to be Englsih Folk musicians, an even greater proportion of which are also Morris musicians. If selection of TOTM ever becomes truly a competition, guess what type of tunes we'll be playing all the blessed time for TOTM!?

Can we not find a way to ensure that other tunes can get a look in as well?
Quote
Ashokan Farewell
has already been suggested for next month, and I couldn't agree more with it as an ideal tune and one that would bring in box players from other traditions (I'm particularly thinking of my Scots & Irish brethren) - who so far have been just a little bit absent from the TOTM offerings - though not all by any means.

Just my ramblings - but I hope there's some sense in there somewhere ;D
AL
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Owen Woods

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Re: Discussions about how TOTM works
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 02:43:23 PM »

Heh, all that I am saying is that once it comes to the vote there should be an ABC and ideally a youtube (although that has problems as already mentioned) provided so that people know what they are voting for. These could be incorporated into the first post. Otherwise some fantastic tunes could be missed.

It would be even better if we had spoilers so that it wouldn't clutter up the thread. Might ask Theo about that.
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graememackay

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 12:58:35 AM »

What about an awards system for totm?

We could have certificates for various sections such as most improved player or best arrangement.  Using a different randomly selected judging panel each month.  Not to turn it into a competition, but to reward people for their labour.

Just a wee thought  :|glug
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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 09:11:28 AM »

What about an awards system for totm?

We could have certificates for various sections such as most improved player or best arrangement.  Using a different randomly selected judging panel each month.  Not to turn it into a competition, but to reward people for their labour.

Just a wee thought  :|glug

I don't think an awards system is in the spirit of what we are about. Each person is on their own musical journey and can measure their own progress. Some kind of public voting about who has made the most progress turns it into a comptetition and smacks of the X Factor. I, for one, would want nothing to do with such a system. We should be supportive of everyone's efforts rather than saying that this person has made more progress than that person.
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Steve_freereeder

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 09:51:20 AM »

I don't think an awards system is in the spirit of what we are about. Each person is on their own musical journey and can measure their own progress. Some kind of public voting about who has made the most progress turns it into a comptetition and smacks of the X Factor. I, for one, would want nothing to do with such a system. We should be supportive of everyone's efforts rather than saying that this person has made more progress than that person.
Yup - what he said.
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Chris Ryall

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 10:03:13 AM »

I think what TOTM may lack is an edge of criticism (in its artistic rather than pejorative sense).  I'm quite sure no one here wants to pull each other down, or light flames, but the ripple of 'thank you xxxxx, that was really good', which I've joined in myself doesn't always progress our craft.  But we have many levels of experience here, and internet is famous for its absence of emotional clues such as body language, expression and timing.  It's not an easy matter at all.

I feel on a bit firmer ground now I've crossed the youtube Rubicon myself. But my own clip fell into the same groove with a couple of questions on the machine, nothing on interpretation etc or whether Ab and Bb somehow worked  ??? or simply jarred  :-X against a C major LIDL. Personally I liked those tone diversions (obviously!) but think I played far too many notes and lost phrasing as a result. And the self criticism engendered did me no harm

Even if others concur, I can't offer any straightforward way forward in this. My own sense is that flat "Gawd that chord at 2'41" was simply awful" within the main forum isn't the way to do it" 

I have experimental PM contact with someone who has thought along the same lines. Could anyone else who has a view positive or negative, critique or even visceral dislike, on  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDdgeWwogM4 feel free to PM me   I promise faithfully not to react :'( and any overripe fruit will go in the Xmas pudding. Yes, even  died in the wool Morris :M types are welcome (just joking).

Plan is to gather the critiques using the facilities here and put them anonymised as an addendum to my own post, edited with my defensive screens set firmly to 'low'  If that somehow works it might be a model more widely.  btw this is very loosely related to the way we handle 'misinterpretations' in Xray departments.

OK, I've said it.  What have I done?  :|bl  Beam me up, Scottie!

Theo -  have we found a use for that hide/reveal button?
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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 10:12:44 AM »

Ok.  I didn't expect a huge amount of support on the idea but as the thread says, its just a suggestion.

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 10:53:01 AM »

I wouldn't like it. If I want critisisum I'll ask for it. I doubt I will always recive a balanced critique (reason why I gave up writing fan fic..too much backbiting and putting others down for the sake of it).

Plus as a relative novice I would feel unqualified to critique other more experienced players renditions.

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 12:02:12 PM »

I wouldn't like it. If I want critisisum I'll ask for it.

I nearly put something like that in my overlong post above, and the invite was added yesterday to my 'playing of LIDL' post. So some might choose to invite PM'd critique (and then shouldn't complain). Others not. My point was that if we only ever say 'thanks Chris that was nice' there is little meaning in it.

There may be other ways, and I sort of hoped an appropriate etiquet might evolve from the group (if the idea's going to run)!   As I say, I'm willing to be lamb to the slaughter in this experimentally. Perhaps you could hold judgement for a week or so, while we see what happens

Quote
Plus as a relative novice I would feel unqualified to critique other more experienced players renditions.

Paradoxically, I'd somehow value comment from the 'relatively unsophisticated' more. Your view on what is actually music is as valid as anyone else's. I could add that any group remotely into Jazz stuff ... has a serious tendency to disappear up its own backside.
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HallelujahAl

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2009, 12:48:31 PM »

It is possible to leave a comment on the Youtube page - and the author/uploader has the ability to remove anything he or she doesn't like. So maybe that's the place?
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Chris Ryall

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How TOTM Works Part 2
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 02:11:04 PM »

Al, again it is a public medium. While that would work as communication, and perhaps no problem if all is very positive -  I suspect some would stop posting videos. That's surely what this forum doesn't want?

[edit] Eek - there you go! I see I've a youtube comment already .. "Emigrating" ::)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 02:18:18 PM by Chris Ryall »
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