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Author Topic: Blue NYC Walters  (Read 9052 times)

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boxlad

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Blue NYC Walters
« on: December 15, 2009, 11:23:07 PM »

As the 'Sonola/Walters' thread was getting a bit off topic I decided to start a new discussion in relation to this box. From online discussions with a number of 'experts' on these old NY boxes the general consensus is that it is most lightly a Walters. It is a four voice and in excellent condition. While it does need a re-wax and a tuning, the keyboard is as good as new and the action is perfect. Obviously the accordion didn't get any really rough treatment in its lifetime. From the message written inside, it was made before 1944 and the address places the residence of the owner on the same street as Frank Walters' shop at 1504 3rd. Ave. NYC. Any experts on this forum have any opinions?  ???    

« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 09:56:12 AM by Boxlad »
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boxlad

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 11:30:01 PM »

Another pic

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EeeJay

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 12:07:48 AM »

Oh right... this was the one I spotted on fleaBay... 8)

From online discussions with a number of 'experts' on these old NY boxes the general consensus is that it is most lightly a Walters.

Thought it might be. Looks very much like that cream coloured box Joe Deranne used...

From the message written inside, it was made before 1944 and the address places the residence of the owner on the same street as Frank Walters' shop at 1504 3rd. Ave. NYC.

I just love the personal resonance of this message from a past generation... Fascinating stuff, the social history of instruments. If only these things could talk, what a tale they could tell...

Ed J
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pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 12:38:20 AM »

Boxlad,

To me that box is absolutely beautiful, in a home-made and humble way. I love the colors.

Some of the Walters that I think were made in New York do have that general keyboard shape, including the one belonging to the late Tom Doherty and the Tom Gallagher box.

But it is very surprising to me that any box actually sold by F. H. Walters would not have his name on it. Like many other accordion dealers past and present, he was not shy about putting his mark on instruments he sold, though they seem to have come from several different sources (some of the Italian-made ones are indistinguishable from models sold by Baldoni Bartoli & Co). That's why I suspect that this aqua blue accordion may have been purchased not exactly from Walters, but rather from someone who made accordions that were also sold by Walters. I believe I remember Aldo Mencacini saying that some NY-made Walters came from Frank Umbriaco (see Ted McGraw's thread on the Superior Accordions).

If the reeds are not very rusty, maybe it would be worthwhile just doing the wax (and leathers as needed) first, to get a good impression of the original tuning. The Gallagher box from a little later in the 1940s was tuned based around A 447 and very wet, but it really is a great sound. Like your blue beauty it is a 4 voice no switch (the Gallagher is LMMM).

It's great that you will have that box playing tunes again,

PG
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 12:41:47 AM by pgroff »
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boxlad

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 05:07:20 PM »

EeeJay,
It is the one you referred to on EBay and what a great sentimental note it has written inside! Indeed to follow up on the name and address would be the best way to find out where this accordion was purchased and who exactly made it. I agree that it is similar to the cream Derrane box here and when I asked Joe Derrane what he thought of it he also presumed it was a Walters due to the keys and keyboard shape.


Paul,
The reeds are rust free and I intend to keep it at its original tuning. A simple re-wax is all it needs. Most of the leathers also look OK but a few might need replacing.
Your point in relation to Walters clearly stamping their mark on the accordions they sold does makes sense. This would lead me to agree that the accordion was not made for Walters to sell. From my understanding, Frank Walters' shop at 1504 3rd. Ave. NYC and the Baldoni Bartoli Co. which opened in 1908 at 60 Mulberry St. NYC were both retail stores and did not manufacture accordions. As you pointed out in reference to unlabeled NY boxes such as this one, Aldo Mencaccini described similar boxes as being, "made by Frank Umbriaco". The Superiors were made in Frank Umbriaco's shop on 116th St. NYC around the 40s by a man named Currione so it would seem plausible that there might be a connection to Umbriaco or Currione in this case and that the box either didn't make it to Walters store or was not made to go there in the first place. I'm sure several prototypes and experimental accordions might also have been made during this period by manufacturers and is there a possibility that they might have taken orders from individual customers not wanting to go through a retailer? Iorio also had a large accordion factory in NYC at the time. Is it reasonable to believe that there might be a connection there?
 
 
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pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 05:26:27 PM »

Boxlad,

Well, Stephen Chambers has suggested on this forum that Iorio made boxes for Walters and for Baldoni-Bartoli. Ted McGraw has also mentioned Iorio as a manufacturer of Irish-American accordions.

True, there are some extant Irish-American accordions that are marked with the Iorio name. But I wonder (just speculation) if possibly even these were not completely made by Iorio. Even if they were manufacturing some types of accordions in New York, it seems possible to me that they were importing partially-finished (or even complete) instruments to supply some models.

You yourself have previously posted pics of a beautiful Black Baldoni with 15 square melody keys -- maybe I'm mistaken, but IMO the keyboard profile of *that* accordion is closer to the shape of your new Blue one than either is to Joe Derrane's 15 key given him by Jackie Martin (the pic you just posted). As well, I know a man who has a Walters-labeled grey box that in all other respects is identical to that Black 15 key Baldoni -- same keyboard shape again.  And as I mentioned, the Gallagher Walters and even more so the late Tom Doherty's Walters with 10 square buttons also have a keyboard profile very like your new blue box. But some Superiors do have similar features.

Let us know what you find out as your research continues!

PG
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boxlad

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 11:43:43 PM »

You're right Paul, the black Baldoni Bartoli and the blue NY box do have almost identical keyboards. I suppose it is the grille design of the Derrane box that is similar to the blue one.    

But the closest I've seen yet to the blue one is this Walters that belonged to Ma McNulty which Ted is currently searching for (excuse the snapshot but it was the only way I could capture the image!)





« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 12:01:59 AM by Boxlad »
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pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 11:59:37 PM »

I found an image of Tom Doherty (R.I.P.), from his lovely cd "Take the bull by the horns," showing his beautiful Walters with 10 square buttons. Don't know how this will post though, since I'm not too advanced technically. And I will also try to post the Gallagher Walters again, about the same period as Mr. Doherty's but with simpler decoration, round buttons, and no switch.



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triskel

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 02:23:42 AM »

Well, Stephen Chambers has suggested on this forum that Iorio made boxes for Walters and for Baldoni-Bartoli. Ted McGraw has also mentioned Iorio as a manufacturer of Irish-American accordions.

True, there are some extant Irish-American accordions that are marked with the Iorio name. But I wonder (just speculation) if possibly even these were not completely made by Iorio. Even if they were manufacturing some types of accordions in New York, it seems possible to me that they were importing partially-finished (or even complete) instruments to supply some models.

Paul,

I'm sure you've seen a lot more of these wonderful old boxes than I have, and the innards of them, and they obviously (from details of their construction, and "Made in Italy" markings on some) do come from a number of sources. Whilst coming to any firm conclusions is not helped by the fact that those who did know the true origins of them are now dead, and they (sometimes literally) "covered up" who made them when they were alive anyway - but I think we're beginning to gain more of an understanding now.

Certainly some of them (early '30s and late '40s onwards) were made in Italy, because it says so on them (though that was often hidden, usually with a serial number plate), whilst in between, from about 1935 onwards, they were made in the then new Iorio factory in New York, and in the War years they may have been supplied by Frank Umbriaco's shop...  ???

I found an image of Tom Doherty (R.I.P.), from his lovely cd "Take the bull by the horns," showing his beautiful Walters with 10 square buttons. Don't know how this will post though, since I'm not too advanced technically.

Unfortunately that image is way too small to see anything, but there's a great (and very large) photo of him, and the Walters, here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/rpsmedia/CMTD_TomDoherty_19.jpg

boxlad

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2009, 12:19:17 PM »

It's interesting to consider the high prices that musicians paid for these instruments also at the original point of purchase. On a record I purchased recently entitled "Old Time Irish Music in America" by Terry Teahan and Gene Kelly (see photo), there is a very informative double A4 sleeve note with information and photos of both musicians and their accordions. It points out that Gene Kelly found the melodeon totally unsuitable for playing along with the saxophone and cornet which were common in the Irish dance bands of the thirties, and so had a two row accordion custom-made for the sum of $375 around 1940. According to an inflation calculator, this equates roughly to $5,500.00 in todays money! 

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Andrew Culwell

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 04:37:10 AM »

So I went over to a friends house who I play at sessions with and he pulled out this beautiful Walters.   Paul might be acquainted with this gentleman as they have done some business in the past and his name came up.  The box I believe is known to Paul.  
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Hohner's, Paolo Soprani red 4 voice, Paddy Clancy Celtic

hibbs3

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 04:38:37 AM »

I'm in love!
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pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 08:06:14 AM »

So I went over to a friends house who I play at sessions with and he pulled out this beautiful Walters.   Paul might be acquainted with this gentleman as they have done some business in the past and his name came up.  The box I believe is known to Paul.  

Hi ajay38,

Yes, I sold that accordion to him a few years back as a project/partially overhauled box. It is pretty tall with the pallets all in a single row but very beautiful and with a great sound, and I think historically important. As you probably know, the owner hasn't done much if anything with the internet (78 records are more his style, and great boxes of course), so it's great that he gave you permission to photo the box and post the picture. I have been trying to get him in contact with Ted McGraw and now Ted will be able to see that machine!

PG

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Andrew Culwell

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 05:49:17 PM »

Yeah he isn't much of a computer/web (doesn't own a PC) guy but he has a fantastic accordion and concertina collection.  He has some beautiful Soprani's and Hohners, I took some other shots and will post some of those in the future.  We talked about me coming over again and snapping some better quality shots here are a couple more less than ideal shots of the box.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 12:27:38 AM by ajay38 »
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Hohner's, Paolo Soprani red 4 voice, Paddy Clancy Celtic

pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 10:24:06 AM »

Hi all,

Here are a couple more pics of that Big Chiclet box that show the nice blue-green color of the rhinestones, and the size and proportions relative to the Gallagher box:


PG
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hibbs3

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 01:52:16 AM »

Beautiful boxes! Now it would be a real treat if we could get to hear them! ;D
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Lars

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 07:11:35 PM »

Hi Paul,

Thanks for sharing these pictures. A very beautiful box; despite the size, it has that special "old" look to it. Lovely!
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Andrew Culwell

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 07:49:20 PM »

Paul are you keeping that box or is it going into Ted's collection? 
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Hohner's, Paolo Soprani red 4 voice, Paddy Clancy Celtic

pgroff

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 08:49:15 PM »

Hi folks,

Yes that one I call the "Big Chiclet" seems almost Egyptian in its proportions and decorations.... not so surprising for the art-deco, pre "streamline" age...

I will take documentary photos to share with Ted McGraw for his research while it is here. Unfortunately, I don't get to keep this one.

PG
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hibbs3

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Re: Blue NYC Walters
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 11:18:26 PM »

A photo of a man I've only heard of through Paul, but he sounded like a wonderful man, full of life!

Joe Joyce, the People's choice.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 11:22:08 PM by hibbs3 »
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