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Author Topic: Writing tunes?  (Read 17371 times)

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ladydetemps

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Writing tunes?
« on: February 23, 2010, 11:36:03 AM »

I noticed one of the future themes of the month is
"Tunes you've written yourself"
Well I haven't written one...so thought I might be a bit stuck when it gets to that point. And I don't know how long it takes to write a tune so thought maybe if I started now it might give me a fighting chance.
Problem is....I don't know how to write a tune, where to start what to include....I don't understand all the music theory stuff. Do I just look for patterns I like and throw them together, take an existing tune and change several notes at a time till it sounds different, or is there a different approach?
Can someone with my naivety and inexperience actually possibly write a tune?
Enlighten me please.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 11:46:29 AM by ladydetemps »
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Lester

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 11:58:37 AM »

Do I just look for patterns I like and throw them together

Yes, this is usually successful

Quote
take an existing tune and change several notes at a time till it sounds different,

This can work, you could also consider changing time sig (see the Plane Tree/Shottiche a'Bethinie thread)

Quote
or is there a different approach?

You could try being really creative and clever and just write a tune  ::)

Quote
Can someone with my naivety and inexperience actually possibly write a tune?

Yes

Theo

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 12:01:02 PM »

I've written a couple and I don't think you need to know any music theory, it  will be helpful to some, but if you are not well up on theory don't let that stop you.  Have a look at tunes you like and see how they are structured,  look for repeated phrases, and things that look as though they repeat, but then go somewhere different.

How long a tune takes to write can vary from a few minutes to months.  For me I seem to need to have something happen to trigger off the process.  The last one was for my parents diamond wedding.

I usually start with a short phrase, just 4 or 5 notes or so and then I build on that.  Its not difficult, give it a go.  What is hard is to write a really great tune that people hear and then want to learn off you.  
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ladydetemps

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 12:10:10 PM »


Quote
or is there a different approach?

You could try being really creative and clever and just write a tune  ::)
Lets just say I started doing as before adverts with changes...and now I do adverts from scratch. I needed stabilisers when learning to ride a bike. I needed armbands when learning to swim....
I tried just going with the flow and it didn't work...didn't fit any time signature and sounded like a dirge.

I usually start with a short phrase, just 4 or 5 notes or so and then I build on that.  Its not difficult, give it a go.  What is hard is to write a really great tune that people hear and then want to learn off you. 
what is the best key to write in? Should I just stick to 'G'?

rees

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 12:15:45 PM »

Best to stick to G for now as it's the key you are most familiar with.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 12:24:04 PM »

When I write a tune (not that it happens very often), it starts off as a tune in my head, which I sing, hum, whistle, etc. whilst doing something else totally different, like walking to the corner shop or being stuck in traffic in the Sheffield rush hour.  

That's the real creative bit.

The thing to do next is to hum it into a recording device of some sort, so you don't forget it. At this stage you can try different versions too.

Next, depending on how you normally learn tunes, you can either have a go at poking around on the melodeon or keyboard or whatever you have (often it is a penny whistle or descant recorder in my case, as those are the instruments I can play easiest by ear), and/or then have a go at writing it down in music, tablature, numbers, etc... whatever suits you best.

To re-emphasise - it's not necessary to write the tune down, but make a recording of it in some way or form so you don't forget it. You can always send the recording to someone else to transcribe into dots for you  ;)
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Scallyanglo

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 12:28:31 PM »

Funnily enough I have been wondering about writing tunes as well - hadn't seen Theme of the month but had picked up a book called 'Sound Foundations' with CD -"source of reference and a guide for aspiring composers." (James Rae & Mike Cornick) It's target is secondary schools (and its few lines on accordion say listen to the theme from 'Allo 'allo!) but it's telling me many things I want to know.
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ladydetemps

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 12:41:58 PM »


Just to proove my point this was 2 attempts on concertina....just sounds dreadfull

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=7555

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=7556

Didn't have a clue what I was doing just pressing buttons as I went along. I can't stand listening so I don't know how anyone else would.

strad

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 12:42:39 PM »

A system that I find works well is to noodle until you find a short phrase that sounds good. If you take that phrase as being the question, then another phrase the same length, similar but different, is the answer. The two together should be (in non musical terms) either 8 or 16 foot taps. So that's the first part done. The second half of the tune usually seems to follow on from what the first part tells you. But the question and answer system is good for both halves, though frequently the second half of the second half (if you understand) can frequently be the second half of the first half. So that means only 12 bars to write instead of 16.

When you think the entire tune is done, put it aside for a day or so, then come back to it and see if it sounds right. Change any bits you aren't happy with and there's your tune! A tape recorder is a useful tool during this process.

Just changing a few parts of an existing tune isn't a good option. Infringing copyright can be costly. Go for an original tune every time. When you have learnt to play your masterpiece take it to a session and play it. If people join in straight away, you may have written someone elses tune.
So back to the drawing board.

You're then at the point where you need to start learning how to write it down in some form. So it's time to learn the written form. Just like learning the box, one thing follows another. Just enjoy it.

Nigel
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Stiamh

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 01:15:43 PM »

How much music theory do you think was known to most of the people who fashioned the great traditional music we play?

Anyway, get away from the idea that tunes are "written". They are composed - which, translated into plain English, means made up.

I've made up a good few over the years and they fall into two groups: those that I work out on an instrument, and those that come to me while I'm doing something else, like walking somewhere or having a shower, and which I work on by singing or humming.  [Edit: like Steve_FR above!]

The former are usually trickier to play and may have some ideas in them that I think are rather clever, and I enjoy playing them. But the ones that catch on and are played by others nearly all fall into the second category!

Who remembers The Old Grey Whistle Test music show? The expression came from tin pan alley, I believe. When you'd composed a tune, you played it to the mature lady who cleaned the building. If she could whistle it back to you, you might have a hit. If she couldn't, forget it!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:17:39 PM by Steve Jones »
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TomB-R

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 01:31:42 PM »

If "your" tune comes easily, chances are it is from unconscious memory rather than original.

Play it to a few friends, they may well say, "sounds like a version of..."

It should have a "hook" something distinctive and memorable. 

There are loads of "patchwork" tunes around that people claim to have written that are just stock phrases from other tunes stuck together.

If people say "that's great" then question their motivation. Do they want you to play "their" tune!

Tune writing should not be encouraged, then hopefully only the better ones will come through!

(Nothing in this post is to be taken too seriously!)  ::)
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Theo

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 01:32:27 PM »


Just to proove my point this was 2 attempts on concertina....just sounds dreadfull


Yet again I have to disagree with your low opinion of your music making!    There are plenty of good ideas there that you can work on and you might end up with more than one tune.  I would describe what you have there as a musical notebook, which includes plenty of material that you can work on and develop.   Some suggestions to bear in mind during the editing:

  • decide on a time signature. Clip one sounds to me as if its wants to be in 3/4 but it could become 4/4 if you want.  
  • consider using more repetition, most trad tunes have lots of repetition
  • don't be afraid to throw out some bits, so you simplify the tune and pare it down to the pure essence

The final irony of making your own tunes is that once they are written you still have to learn to play them!
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ladydetemps

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 02:17:01 PM »

Is one type easier than another? e.g. is a waltz easier than a jig or vice versa?


Yet again I have to disagree with your low opinion of your music making!    There are plenty of good ideas there that you can work on and you might end up with more than one tune.  I would describe what you have there as a musical notebook, which includes plenty of material that you can work on and develop.   Some suggestions to bear in mind during the editing:

  • decide on a time signature. Clip one sounds to me as if its wants to be in 3/4 but it could become 4/4 if you want.  
  • consider using more repetition, most trad tunes have lots of repetition
  • don't be afraid to throw out some bits, so you simplify the tune and pare it down to the pure essence

The final irony of making your own tunes is that once they are written you still have to learn to play them!

I've forgotten what buttons I used and I can't play by ear...so that's the end of that. Back to the drawing board.
Now you see why I'm drawn to the cut n paste approach to get the basic structure before tweaking is into unrecognizeability (bit like fractal art using scripts).

Is there a 'template' for each type I could use as a starting point?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 02:36:45 PM by ladydetemps »
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Anahata

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 02:47:04 PM »

I had a go at writing tunes very infrequently many years ago, and the results weren't good.
Then recently I started again, under a certain amount of pressure from Pig Dyke Molly, whose previous main musician wrote all his own tunes, and found it a lot easier. I'd also read a few thoughts about tune writing that gave me some ideas.
Things that helped:
  • Having to produce a tune of a particular type (rhythm, speed, length) to order. Limitations like that concentrate the mind wonderfully. You could decide to restrict it to a range of notes, or not have an F# anywhere in it, or whatever...
  • Taking a musical style that you'd like to emulate and trying to copy it (you won't exactly succeed, but the attempt produces a lot of creativity)
  • For me, the process starts with a tiny germ of an idea. Just a tiny phrase from something I've heard that catches my attention - then by time it's been turned into a new tune the original phrase may be unrecognisable but it's acted as a catalyst.
  • Big insight for me: a whole tune doesn't come into your head all at once. You try things out, pull it apart, put it back together in a different order, find answering phrases to fit what you already have, discard stuff because it "doesn't work" and also be prepared for it to go off in a totally unexpected direction.

I now have 4 of my own tunes in regular use with Pig Dyke Molly - the most successful has been "Pig Flu Blues" - some kind person's made a YouTube video of it. Signs of a misspent youth playing piano rags and listening to old blues heroes...

Anahata

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ladydetemps

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 03:34:44 PM »

Having to produce a tune of a particular type (rhythm, speed, length) to order. Limitations like that concentrate the mind wonderfully. You could decide to restrict it to a range of notes, or not have an F# anywhere in it, or whatever...

Well I did have some criteria in mind. No more than 5 different buttons used (so I don't have to move my hand around). No cross rowing needed to play it. And some thing a beginner wouldn't find impossible. I'd also like it to be a 6/8 because I hate 3/4.

I suppose simple tunes like that are all taken by now.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 03:36:58 PM by ladydetemps »
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Anahata

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 04:17:47 PM »

Well I did have some criteria in mind. No more than 5 different buttons used (so I don't have to move my hand around). No cross rowing needed to play it. And some thing a beginner wouldn't find impossible.
Well there's a challenge for us all!
Quote
I'd also like it to be a 6/8 because I hate 3/4.
What about 4/4?
Quote
I suppose simple tunes like that are all taken by now.
"The composer Schoenberg once remarked that there are 'still many good tunes to be written in C major'..."

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ladydetemps

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 04:26:32 PM »

Quote
I'd also like it to be a 6/8 because I hate 3/4.
What about 4/4?
I find it hard to tell if something is 4/4 so I wouldn't want to try writing a tune in it if I hadn't even got the remotest chance of telling if I was going wrong.

Plus I enjoy playing jigs somehow my fingers seem to like playing the basses that way. ;)

Chris Ryall

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 07:52:45 PM »

Quote
I'd also like it to be a 6/8 because I hate 3/4.
What about 4/4?
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=7555
http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=7556

Absolutely nothing wrong with either of these. True to the key in use, (mostly) nicely on the beat, and some interesting phrasing. The John Cage quote on the second one was also entertaining ...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 07:57:52 PM by Chris Ryall »
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oompahman

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 09:37:24 PM »

I sometimes find myself picking up the box with no particular tune to learn.So i start doodling around using the sounds & styles i like(e.g.Bob Cann or Dan Quinn).The hard bit is not turning your efforts into a clone of someone elses tunes.If i feel i've ended up with something original i record it for future practise(or amendment.All this is mainly for my own amusement-don't usually play them out in sessions.
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GbH

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Re: Writing tunes?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 01:00:40 AM »

How much music theory do you think was known to most of the people who fashioned the great traditional music we play?

Possibly not much formal theory, but I bet they had a great practical knowledge, learnt from experience and instinct. 
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