Does Celluloid Deaden Sound?

[BillWolfe]

I'm in the final negotiations of ordering a custom box from an Italian builder (okay, it's a piano accordion, but I hope the gentle readers on this board will bear with me).  The options for finish include a variety of wood veneers or celluloid.  I'm surprised to fnd myself a bit torn in deciding.  Wood is gorgeous, but its very gorgeousness would turn an otherwise small. inconspicuous PA into a status statement and thief magnet.  The one telling factor would be sound.  A local accordionist who I respect alot is convinced the wood finished boxes are inately more sonorous and lively-sounding than celluloid.  All things being equal--reeds, construction, geometry, etc.,  do boxes with solid wood, veneer over plywood, or celluloid over plywood have distinct and consistent accoustic characteristics?  Any comments or thoughts would be very welcome!
Bill

[BoxMann]

It's really all in the eye(ear?) of the beholder. I'm not as familiar with accordions, but scientific tests on woodwinds and string instruments have proven conclusively that the actual material of the instrument doesn't make a difference to the sound. WHat does, however, is the density, and as long as the celluloid is the same as the density of the wood, it shouldn't matter.

Bear in mind though, that this is a topic of much debate amongst musicians and instrument makers, some of whom agree with the theory and some of whom strongly disagree. Either way, all the best with your new not-melodeon .

[Andy Simpson]

Whether it deadens sound or not is almost irrelevant. The reeds, the blocks, how tightly they're held to the baseboard, the size and shape of the air cavities and the acoustic reflectivity, (not resonance), of the inside of the box are what matters in a free reed instrument.

You shouldn't worry about whether or not celluloid deadens sound because accordions don't generate sound by the case vibrating and, all other things being equal, 0.6mm of celluloid or 0.6mm of wood glued over the same box isn't going to make any difference.

  

It's really all in the eye(ear?) of the beholder. I'm not as familiar with accordions, but scientific tests on woodwinds and string instruments have proven conclusively that the actual material of the instrument doesn't make a difference to the sound.

...erm, what tests are these?.....were they conducted by deaf people by any chance?.

Are you seriously saying that the material of a stringed instrument doesn't make a difference to the sound?.

WHat does, however, is the density, and as long as the celluloid is the same as the density of the wood, it shouldn't matter.

Nope, what matters is the acoustic impedence of the material, there's a general correlation but density relating to acoustic properties is a huge red herring. Ebony and Pernambuco are both similarly dense yet sound travels through Pernambuco like nobody's business and Ebony actually damps vibration.

[Theo]

Nope, what matters is the acoustic impedence of the material, there's a general correlation but density relating to acoustic properties is a huge red herring. Ebony and Pernambuco are both similarly dense yet sound travels through Pernambuco like nobody's business and Ebony actually damps vibration.

And taking the other end of the density range, woods like spruce and western red cedar also have good acoustic properties, but low density.

[BillWolfe]

Whether it deadens sound or not is almost irrelevant. The reeds, the blocks, how tightly they're held to the baseboard, the size and shape of the air cavities and the acoustic reflectivity, (not resonance), of the inside of the box are what matters in a free reed instrument.

You shouldn't worry about whether or not celluloid deadens sound because accordions don't generate sound by the case vibrating and, all other things being equal, 0.6mm of celluloid or 0.6mm of wood glued over the same box isn't going to make any difference.

Thanks!  That makes all the sense in the world.  Still might go with cherry, though....

[BoxMann]

 

It's really all in the eye(ear?) of the beholder. I'm not as familiar with accordions, but scientific tests on woodwinds and string instruments have proven conclusively that the actual material of the instrument doesn't make a difference to the sound.

...erm, what tests are these?.....were they conducted by deaf people by any chance?.

Are you seriously saying that the material of a stringed instrument doesn't make a difference to the sound?.

[/quote]

I think my point may have been better made had I said sound waves. Obviously no two people can study the actual sound of an instrument and come to a conclusion about the literal sound, but sound waves can be measured.

I'll try to find a link for you, but one of the tests I was referring to(which I may be remembering incorrectly), was done using an original Stradisvarius violin, and a copy by a modern maker, where the wood had been treated chemically to have the same density as the wood used on the original. A panel of 150 classically trained orchestra vioinists(who I assure you were not deaf  ) were asked to pick which one was the original, and the split was something 60% for the copy, 30% for the original.

But I digress, since any discussion of the sound of a well made instrument is more a process of opinion than anything else. For instance I prefer the sound of blackwood(ebony) instruments more than that of cocobolo, which some people consider superior.

Anyways, I hope this discussion helps Bill make his choice.

Wesley

[Steve Jones]

Bill, have you seen this thread? The possibility that celluloid on the grille acts to muffle the sound is discussed. http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3658.0.html

[Falseknight]

But the 'so called' tone woods are meant to do different things in different instruments.  In a flute, the cocus or blackwood is meant to provide a resonance free containment to the column of air.  In an acoustic guitar, the cedar or spruce used in the soundboard is meant to vibrate as a large piston (or diaphragm depending on your view) supported at the edge and stiffened along the grain.  The rosewood back and sides are meant to provide a stiff reflecting surface.  All the structural timbers in an electric guitar are meant to be strong and not contribute resonances in the acoustic spectrum.  I like maple for guitar necks because it is strong and stiff.

So what do you want your 'tonewood' to do?  What is it going to do in a melodeon, which works by magic bits of metal chopping an airstream?

My guess is be stiff, reflective, and not contribute resonances in the audio spectrum.

[BillWolfe]

Bill, have you seen this thread? The possibility that celluloid on the grille acts to muffle the sound is discussed. http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3658.0.html

That's interesting stuff!  Claudio Beltrami emailed me that he uses different grill designs to produce different shades of volume and tone color, including a very open grill, which he says doesn't dampen sound at all, whereas his more closed grill produced a "warmer" tone.  Haven't heard them side by side to compare, and I'm not even sure how the grills are made or from what. I had a neat little Maugein B/C with a bare metal grill.  I've always thought it looked cool, and maybe it contributed to the nasal incisiveness of that box.  A major feature of Pigini's "Professional" series 34/72 PA is the more open grill design--including an open-weave grill cloth!  You wouldn't be Steve Jones formerly of Sitka?  Or was it Petrersberg?

[Harpo]

According to Strasser:

"...the material of the body does not exercise any influence on the sound of the instrument."

(http://www.strasser-harmonikas.com/en/wissen.htm)

Seems like I remember a thread where someone made a foam body and came to the same conclusion, too.  Not sure it makes sense to me, but that's what the "experts" seem to say!

[Rob2Hook]

Seems like I remember a thread where someone made a foam body and came to the same conclusion, too.  Not sure it makes sense to me, but that's what the "experts" seem to say!

That would be Mr Peter (Stormy) Hyde.  He has experimented with a number of different composites to reduce the weight of the box whilst maintaining or even improving its rigidity and strength.

Rob.

[Theo]

According to Strasser:

"...the material of the body does not exercise any influence on the sound of the instrument."

(http://www.strasser-harmonikas.com/en/wissen.htm)

I'd have to disagree with that.

If you get a chance (I have) compare the sound of a varnished wood Hohner Club II and a purple pearloid version of the same model. Apart from the instrument casing they are identical. The pearloid model is made of plywood, the other solid wood, probably alder.   The sound is different.  I've no way of telling whether its is the pearloid covering, or the difference between play and solid wood, but there is a small but distinct difference in sound.

[Malcolm Austen]

From the point the sound is generated, at the reed, it radiates out in all directions and is absorbed, reflected and filtered by what is between it and your ears so everything will have some effect just in some cases it will be very small. For an example try taking the grill off and playing.

 I had an idea a few years ago to construct a device to mount the reed blocks on the outside of the melodeon just to see how they sounded in the raw but in the end spent the time learning new tunes.