New 3 row layout.

[Atzarin]

Here is a link to a new three row layout, called Atzarin, which may be of interest to people who play diatonic accordions.

http://atzarin.com/eng/keyboards/accordion/atzarin_accordion_layout.html

The layout was originally intended for the treble keyboard of a bisonoric accordion, but it has since been developed on a new kind of bandoneon, specifically designed for this kind of layout, and could even be applied to concertinas to a more limited extent. What should be the definitive bandoneon prototype is currently being built by bandoneon and concertina manufacturer Harry Geuns. As yet there is no accordion model with this layout, but it would be interesting to hear your opinions on this keyboard arrangement.

The idea was to have a completely regular, fully chromatic instrument in both directions of the bellows, that would be neutral or isomorphic. So, the shape of a triad chord is one and the same in any musical key. The same is true of any minor triad chord. 1 scale pattern suffices to play that type of scale in 8 different musical keys, 4 on the draw and 4 on the push. A different scale pattern is needed in the opposite direction of the bellows. In total you only need 3 different scale patterns to play in any key in either direction of the bellows.

Transposing is much easier as a tune can be played in a different key with exactly the same fingering and bellows reversals just by starting from a different button in the same row. Obviously this may be limited by the bass setup. Musical keys fall into 3 groups of 4, depending on which row the tonic note is on. Transposing to a key from another group is made easier by the fact that very often, motiffs and entire phrase can have the same fingering, but played in the opposite direction of the bellows.

Another important consideration was that the fingering style should be comfortable and not completely alien to people coming from conventional diatonic or bisonoric accordions. Although different, playing technique may feel more familiar to people who play on rows separated by quarts than to people who play Irish B/C etc.

Whilst other 3 row layouts often try to keep the basic chore of the layout and usually add accidentals, tunes have to be relearned with new fingerings anyway. Often, they do not fully overcome the "limitations" of the instrument regarding playing in other musical keys with the same ease, or allowing greater choice and control over bellows reversals. They try to improve the musical possibilities of the instrument keeping the amount of learning and relearnig to a minimum and keeping the instrument compact.

Although the Atzarin layout requires learning a completely new system on a slightly less compact keyboard, transition is fairly quick and easy. Learning is very rewarding because the layout is 100% regular, so there is less memorisation of chord shapes, scale patterns etc. The less compact nature means that on the same number of buttons there is a smaller musical range than on a conventional diatonic accordion. However, the ability to play both diatonic and chromatic music in any key with similar ease more than compensates the lack of high octave notes above "f3".

[GbH]

Thanks for the information - it's interesting to hear about other systems and what they might offer.

From what I've seen of the site, it's not obvious to what extent people have actually learnt to use such a system.  Are there YouTube videos of them being used?  Does the system have any quirks that, musically, set it apart from other systems?

[LDbosca]

Do any accordions with this layout exist yet?

[Québécois]

Another important consideration was that the fingering style should be comfortable and not completely alien to people coming from conventional diatonic or bisonoric accordions. Although different, playing technique may feel more familiar to people who play on rows separated by quarts than to people who play Irish B/C etc.

I am always interested in learning new things, but looking at the keyboard layout I don't really understand this statement! For example, it seems that in order to play a simple C scale we would need cross-rowing over the 3 rows. That's very different than on a regular, say, diatonic G/C/F box.  How can it be an easy transition?

[oggiesnr]

I have played one of the Harry Guens C system Bandoneons and to be honest I didn't like it. I played one of his cheapies (about £650) and it sounded like a cheap Chinese concertina or melodeon.  His hand made ones (which sound a lot better) are way out of my price-range (4,750 euros).

My overwhelming thought was "Why?".  Tonally a good CBA or freebass had it beat.  If you wanted unisonoric there are lots of options.  It was not a "bandoneon" with all it's limitations, frustrations and possibilities.  It just didn't seem to have a unique selling point.

To me the latter is important.  Melodeons sound different to PAs, to concertinas etc, we use them differently.  We even use different melodeons to different effect.  An instrument that has no unique palette seems pointless.

Steve

[Atzarin]

Thanks for the replies!

Do any accordions with this layout exist yet?

No, no accordion with this layout exists as yet. I had a 3 row, 48 Stradella bass accordion which had a layout that was the forerunner to the definitive Atzarin layout. It had been modified several times using the original reeds and, of course, had a very unstable sound as the reeds had had so much material removed. After coming up with the definitive layout, I've since tried to order a new set of reeds via two different repairers and have only drawn blanks. The reed manufacturers do not seem to be very happy about supplying a non-standard set of reeds.

In any case, my efforts might be described as half-hearted because I'd already reached the conclusion that the bandonion format had certain advantages over the accordion and had started spending time and money on developing the Atzarin bandonion prototypes.

Once the bandonion model has been finalised I will look more seriously at the possibility of having Atzarin accordions manufactured. As the layout is completely new and people will be very wary about spending money on something to see whether it works or not, the accordion would have to be inexpensive, an entry level instrument that people could use to get the feel of the layout before upgrading to a quality instrument.

However, I would need to get more feedback from squeezebox players on the layout itself.

Thanks for the information - it's interesting to hear about other systems and what they might offer.

From what I've seen of the site, it's not obvious to what extent people have actually learnt to use such a system.  Are there YouTube videos of them being used?  Does the system have any quirks that, musically, set it apart from other systems?

Precisely because NO accordion models currently exist and because even the definitve bandonion model is still being finalised, nobody else has learnt to play the system. No YouTube videos will be made until the definitive bandonion model is ready. At the moment, my aim is to gauge interest in the system and gather opinions on the layout itself as applied to a possible accordion model. As a bisonoric system, its main "quirk" is that it's 100% regular.

It is aimed at people who already play conventional bisonoric bellows instruments and wish to move onto a fully chromatic, completely regular layout, that allows them to play a greater range of music and styles on the same instrument, with a fingering style that is much more comfortable than CBA. It is not meant to replace existing instruments in their respective fields. Traditional Basque folk dance music will always best be played on a Trikitixa. But those peolpe who play the trikitixa and wish to play Jazz or Blues or Tango will have a problem. A possible solution to that problem is an Atzarin instrument.

Another important consideration was that the fingering style should be comfortable and not completely alien to people coming from conventional diatonic or bisonoric accordions. Although different, playing technique may feel more familiar to people who play on rows separated by quarts than to people who play Irish B/C etc.

I am always interested in learning new things, but looking at the keyboard layout I don't really understand this statement! For example, it seems that in order to play a simple C scale we would need cross-rowing over the 3 rows. That's very different than on a regular, say, diatonic G/C/F box.  How can it be an easy transition?

Thanks for the observation, Québécois. In the light of your comment I realise that my statement is rather simplistic and exagerated and based on a mistaken assumption. I shall modify or contextualise it on the web site.

I was trying to refer to the fingering stlye, and was incorrectly assuming that the cross-row playing typical of Trikitixa, Basque diatonic accordion, style was normal in other styles on diatonic boxes with a quart between rows. In Trikitixa playing full use is made of the notes on both rows, which in combination with unisonoric basses, allows extremely fast fingering technique and smooth bellows operation with reduced reversals.

The CBA, which requires cramped, uncomfortable "finger crossing" - passing a finger under or over another finger in preparation to play the next note. From my "cross-row playing is normal" perspective I'd thought that the same "finger crossing" was neccessary on Irish B/C layouts.

On the Trikitixa the cross-row, open fingering style - the next finger to play a note always stays next to or moves away from the finger currently playing - is very comfortable and makes very fast technique easy. The Atzarin playing technique is based on this style. The name Atzarin itself comes from Basque. "atz" is used in vocabulary referring to the fingers and "arin" means fast or quick.

Yes, a scale is played entirely in one direction of the bellows across 3 rows, like on CBA though with a more comfortable fingering. Same pattern in 8 different musical keys.

Alternatively a scale is played on 2 rows but with 2 reversals. Starting from the middle row or top row, for example, the tonic note, 6th and 7th are on the draw and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th are on the push. That's the same pattern for the same scale in 8 different musical keys.

Another 2 row scale pattern involves 3 reversals. Starting from the middle or bottom row, the tonic note and the 6th are on the push and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th are all on the draw. Again, it's the same pattern for the same scale in 8 different musical keys.

The same pattern for a number of different musical keys and alternative patterns for the same scale, I feel, are a great advantage. However, I DO admit, having considered your comment, that the patterns are alien to people coming from other systems. Nevertheless, I'm convinced that a person who is used to cross-row playing on 2 rows would feel more at home in terms of fingering and the feel of playing technique on an Atzarin layout than on, for example a Hayden layout or CBA layout.

[Clive Williams]

You probably want to get in touch with Squeezy (John Spiers, Spiers and Boden) on this; he's got the only 3 row Streb (a midi melodeon, if you haven't met them before) I know of, and can possibly persuade Steve Rouse to program your keyboard design into it. He's also just about crazy enough to try learning to play it!

Looking at your layout, it looks slightly... erm... daunting to me; the idea of the pull being a semitone above the push (if I understood your chart right) doesn't seem to lend itself to diatonic style playing. But until I see one in the flesh and try playing it, what do I know?

Cheers,

Clive

[ukebert]

I think that this layout has potential, it appeals to me for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on.

Quebecois is wrong in one instance, with bellows reversals I believe that every diatonic scale may be played using only 2 rows including the middle row. The same scale may be played on the other two rows, just with different bellows changes. Given that it is chromatic on both push and pull, this instrument has a lot of potential.

What I would say that in terms of the quint melodeons, the hand position would be back to front. Generally when one cross rows it ends up being a series of diagonal lines flowing down from left to right. On this instrument it would be from right to left. This is unlikely to be a problem, as C system accordions are the "right" way round and B system accordions are back to front. B system generally seems to be used for those that want fast, delicate fingerwork and C system for those that want chords, so I don't think that this reversal would be a problem.

From what has been said, it seems to me that this layout is taking the best parts of the CBA (similar scale patterns, chromaticism, regular patterns, repeatibility) and trying to combine it with some of the best parts of the DBA (bellows reversals, compact, light-weight, harmony, etc.).

You can even play "on the row" style on it, with the same bellows direction as if you were playing a one-row.

Atzarin - if you ever do produce an Atzarin accordion (preferably with some sort of free bass LH) then I will gladly and without charge, take one, learn it and put videos on YouTube. Deal?

[Steve Jones]

Sebastian, the normal procedure goes like this:

1. Someone develops or adopts an instrument in a new or unusual configuration.

2. Said person gets very good at playing this instrument.

3. Said person then amazes musicians and punters with the instrument's potential.

4. Amazed musicians want one.

Why are you choosing a different route?

[Atzarin]

Looking at your layout, it looks slightly... erm... daunting to me; the idea of the pull being a semitone above the push (if I understood your chart right) doesn't seem to lend itself to diatonic style playing. But until I see one in the flesh and try playing it, what do I know?

You know a lot, like many of the users of this forum. You certainly know much more about diatonic playing style than I do. Atzarin is not as "diatonic friendly" as a diatonic accordion, but is supposed to bridge the gap between diatonic music and chromatic music but on a bisonoric instrument, as I consider bisonority itself to be as advantage.

Regarding the semitone tone difference at each button, I spent rather a long time to decide whether the higher note should be on the draw or the press. Both are contemplated, but for production of a real instrument I had to choose one. My intention was to have a layout that was easier to learn and more versatile than the diatonic accordion layout. However, I wanted to be able to play using the same fingering style as on the box I was used to.

I was coming from Trikitixa, the Basque diatonic accordion, where playing across the rows is normal. In fact, the idea of playing on the row is quiet strange from Trikitixa technique's perspective, as the two rows are seen as one unit, not two separate elements that complement each other.

When experimenting I found that having the higher note on the draw allowed fingerings that were more similar to those used on the Trikitixa. However, at that time I was also thinking along the lines of "tonic on the push", as on the Trikitixa, whereas now I do not feel that's the best way to play. On Demian's original accordion, if I'm not mistaken, and on other early bisonoric instruments, the tonic note was on the draw.

Atzarin - if you ever do produce an Atzarin accordion (preferably with some sort of free bass LH) then I will gladly and without charge, take one, learn it and put videos on YouTube. Deal?

Hey, thanks Ukebert! I'll think about it, but to tell the truth I was thinking more along the lines of hiring out instruments for people to be able to try. Something like 50 pounds or 50 euros a month, depending on where you live, with a minimum 3 month rental and option to buy, so the money spent on rental is discounted from the price and different discounts are offered depending on whether you buy after 3, 6 or 9 months. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be able to do that for the US.

The alternative is to get some inexpensive models manufactured by the Chinese. There are a number of reasons why I'm not keen to do so. Would you rather fork out between 400 and 600 euros/pounds/dollars to try out a low quality instrument and then have the hassle of selling it on if you want to upgrade to a quality instrument or if you simply decide that it's not really your cup of tea or pay 150 euros/pounds to try it out for 3 months?

In any case, all of this is still a long way off, unfortunately.

Sebastian, the normal procedure goes like this:

1. Someone develops or adopts an instrument in a new or unusual configuration.

2. Said person gets very good at playing this instrument.

3. Said person then amazes musicians and punters with the instrument's potential.

4. Amazed musicians want one.

Why are you choosing a different route?

An excellent question which I'm not too happy to answer!  It's simply because I'm not a talented musician.

Step 1 has been done. I'm working on Step 2 at the moment, but have been doing so on changing prototypes with evolving keyboards. Progress is slow. I've spent way too long searching for a system that I really liked, too many years experimenting and not actually getting good at any system. Now I'm dedicating a lot of time to web page maintainance and trying to publicise the layout and consequently not practicing enough. I don't even have a finished, definitive bandoneon prototype yet!

So step 2 is going to take an awfully long time and, let's face it, step 3 just won't happen - not because of the layout or the instrument, but because I'm not musically talented. I DANCE tango far better than I PLAY it! Obviously, when I have a definitive model, I'll have to make some introductory videos to put on the internet, but they will hardly be a display of musicianship! The aim of the videos will be to actually show people what it looks like and how it is palyed and show some of its strong points...

That said, I do believe that Atzarin is a very good keyboard layout. Although I'm not musically talented, I certainly derive far greater pleasure from learning and practicing on my current Atzarin prototype (modified minihybrid bandonion) than I used to on my diatonic accordion. I love moving from Bach to Basque folk to tango to blues to jazz to contemporary pieces all in the same practice session on the same instrument, hassle free! That is far more difficult and limited, if not impossible in some cases, on the diatonic accordion and requires far greater skill. 

I feel that people who already play instruments it could be applied to may also see the Atzarin layout's potential on paper, as it were, and be willing to try it out. So, Step 3 will be more a case of convincing people to give it a whirl and step 4 should read, "Convinced punters and musicians want one."

[ukebert]

Hey, thanks Ukebert! I'll think about it, but to tell the truth I was thinking more along the lines of hiring out instruments for people to be able to try. Something like 50 pounds or 50 euros a month, depending on where you live, with a minimum 3 month rental and option to buy, so the money spent on rental is discounted from the price and different discounts are offered depending on whether you buy after 3, 6 or 9 months. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be able to do that for the US.

The alternative is to get some inexpensive models manufactured by the Chinese. There are a number of reasons why I'm not keen to do so. Would you rather fork out between 400 and 600 euros/pounds/dollars to try out a low quality instrument and then have the hassle of selling it on if you want to upgrade to a quality instrument or if you simply decide that it's not really your cup of tea or pay 150 euros/pounds to try it out for 3 months?

Personally? I'd rather have a cheapo Chinese model at £400! It may not be possible that to get some made at that price, if it is then why aren't there more low cost accordions out there? You are quite right in that it would be difficult to sell it on and that it would probably be low quality, but I would rather pay £400 and have something concrete that I can keep than £150 for something that I can't. That is mainly because I am technically broke at the moment, others may differ.

An excellent question which I'm not too happy to answer!  It's simply because I'm not a talented musician.

Step 1 has been done. I'm working on Step 2 at the moment, but have been doing so on changing prototypes with evolving keyboards. Progress is slow. I've spent way too long searching for a system that I really liked, too many years experimenting and not actually getting good at any system. Now I'm dedicating a lot of time to web page maintainance and trying to publicise the layout and consequently not practicing enough. I don't even have a finished, definitive bandoneon prototype yet!

So step 2 is going to take an awfully long time and, let's face it, step 3 just won't happen - not because of the layout or the instrument, but because I'm not musically talented. I DANCE tango far better than I PLAY it! Obviously, when I have a definitive model, I'll have to make some introductory videos to put on the internet, but they will hardly be a display of musicianship! The aim of the videos will be to actually show people what it looks like and how it is palyed and show some of its strong points...

That said, I do believe that Atzarin is a very good keyboard layout. Although I'm not musically talented, I certainly derive far greater pleasure from learning and practicing on my current Atzarin prototype (modified minihybrid bandonion) than I used to on my diatonic accordion. I love moving from Bach to Basque folk to tango to blues to jazz to contemporary pieces all in the same practice session on the same instrument, hassle free! That is far more difficult and limited, if not impossible in some cases, on the diatonic accordion and requires far greater skill. 

I feel that people who already play instruments it could be applied to may also see the Atzarin layout's potential on paper, as it were, and be willing to try it out. So, Step 3 will be more a case of convincing people to give it a whirl and step 4 should read, "Convinced punters and musicians want one."

The other alternative is to talk to Bill Farmer of this parish and convince him to write your layout into his programme, or else to get someone to write your own version if he is busy and gives you permission. If you then have that for download on your website then you could get people to try out the system without having to fork out any cash. I'll accept an accordion as payment for giving you the idea

This is what I'm talking about: http://code.google.com/p/accordion/

Alternatively, write an app for it. There are several concertina apps out there, why not have another?

[Québécois]

Well, this is all interesting, but I tend to stand by Steve Jone's 4 rules!

I am sure lots of work has been put in this new keyboard layout but it reminds me of the alternative Janko piano keyboard which never caught on, as most pianists were complaining they did not want to re-learn their repertoire on new unestablished keyboard with totally new fingering...

My 2 cents.

[LDbosca]

Well, this is all interesting, but I tend to stand by Steve Jone's 4 rules!

I am sure lots of work has been put in this new keyboard layout but it reminds me of the alternative Janko piano keyboard which never caught on, as most pianists were complaining they did not want to re-learn their repertoire on new unestablished keyboard with totally new fingering...

My 2 cents.

Ditto.

As stated before, it usually takes a great musician to demonstrate the possibilities of a new system. While I'm sure you're concepts are very good, you are (unfortunately) in a similar position to a bass player who is looking to start a rock band...

[Andrel]

Atzarin, I am curious about Harry Geuns's involvement in this project (besides building the instrument). He is a highly respected craftsman and I have no doubt he wouldn't build this thing if he thought it was off the wall. So what kind of feedback are you getting from him ? What's the extent of your collaboration ?
  I am actually excited about your project, and would love to try the instrument. I love the sound of the bandoneon (I have devoted countless hours to my Alfred Arnold, and it's still painful going. I don't think I'll ever get over the unwieldiness of the damn thing, so something far better ergonomically is great news.)

[Atzarin]

Atzarin, I am curious about Harry Geuns's involvement in this project (besides building the instrument). He is a highly respected craftsman and I have no doubt he wouldn't build this thing if he thought it was off the wall. So what kind of feedback are you getting from him ? What's the extent of your collaboration ?

Harry Geuns's feedback is strictly advisory and informative on technical aspects of bandoneon construction, what is possible and what is not, tuning details and possibilites etc. His job is to design and build a new, high quality action/lever mechanism and produce a technically good, working instrument according to my design concept.

The Atzarin layout of notes and the design concept of the Atzarin bandonion are entirely mine.

http://atzarin.com/eng/instruments/bandonion/atzarin_bandonion_bandoneon_reshaped.html

By design concept I mean any aspect that has a direct bearing on the best way to implement the layout on a bandoneon, namely the keyboard, hand rail and strap. Keyboard considerations include the radius of each of the curved rows and the angle of slope towards the thumb, and button position, size, spacing and stepping whilst hand rail considerations include the shape, size and position and the most important aspect of the hand strap is its location on the hand rail.  

The patent application, and the website are also entirely mine, likewise all the time and money that has gone into funding this project.

 I am actually excited about your project, and would love to try the instrument. I love the sound of the bandoneon (I have devoted countless hours to my Alfred Arnold, and it's still painful going. I don't think I'll ever get over the unwieldiness of the damn thing, so something far better ergonomically is great news.)

Whilst I believe the Atzarin bandonion to be more ergonomic than a traditional bandoneon, it is still practically the same size and weight. I'm not sure whether the "unwieldiness" you refer to is the fingering style or precisely the size and weight!

Well, this is all interesting, but I tend to stand by Steve Jone's 4 rules!

I am sure lots of work has been put in this new keyboard layout but it reminds me of the alternative Janko piano keyboard which never caught on, as most pianists were complaining they did not want to re-learn their repertoire on new unestablished keyboard with totally new fingering...

My 2 cents.

Ditto.

As stated before, it usually takes a great musician to demonstrate the possibilities of a new system. While I'm sure you're concepts are very good, you are (unfortunately) in a similar position to a bass player who is looking to start a rock band...

Thankyou, but I'm already aware of the difficulties facing me in trying to get a project like this off the ground. Whilst on the subject, I'd like to shout a big THANKS to Ukebert for your constructive and interesting ideas, which have led me on a very interesting journey of discovery on the web.

Incidentally, Wicki's system, nowadays known as the Hayden system or Wicki/Hayden system in free-reed circles, did not catch on back in 1896 either. The current popularity of the Hayden system is leading people to relearn their repertoire and learn totally new fingering. Whether that is due to Hayden's undoubted talent and musicianship or to the widespread difusion of information on the system on the internet is debatable. It probably comes down to both.

http://www.concertina.com/gaskins/wicki/index.htm

However, now that information and analyses of the system are so readily available on the web, people can study it carefully "on paper", practising dry runs, as it were, before actually picking up a real instrument to try it out. This kind of investigation let's us become aware of the theoretical advantages. I think it's pretty clear that the internet has helped to make the Hayden system more popular.

However, whilst all this thread drift is very interesting and gives me an idea of the feeling of doom some people have about any project involving something new, and consequently unestablished, that requires learning new skills, in my initial message I was looking for OPINIONS ON THE KEYBOARD ARRANGEMENT from people who already play a bisonoric or diatonic accordion. I'd be grateful for any opinions.

[Andrel]

 I was referring mostly to the awkward fingering and hand extension. The squarish design doesn't help. And yes, I like the keyboard layout. Makes more sense than that of a traditional bandoneon, and should be far easier to memorize.

[GCFMan/Steve]

Steve Jones' rules are the reason behind most everything connected with MAD.

Who knew:

They needed a CF Loffet until they heard DTN play one?
They needed a Streb until they heard some of the TOTM renditions?
They needed to sell their car and get an Oakwood until they heard Anahata's Stoney Steps?

(etc.)

The question here, for Mr. Atzarin, is Why?  As Steve J. points out, it must be demonstrated, not theorized.