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[Gary P Chapin]

Thinking again about "the last accordion I'll ever buy."  I saw the Handry on the Button Box site, and think that a Handry 18 just may be the creature I want (even if not that one), but I find myself flummoxed by a question that's flummoxed me for years.  Do I want a three row G/C/Accidentals or a G/C/F?  Right now I've got a Salterelle two and a half row that I am VERY happy with -- it's a great instrument with a great story, and it means a lot to me.

But I'd love to hear about playing experiences comparing the G/C/Acc vs. the G/C/F.  Does the F row allow for cross row flexibility?

And how about 18 bass vs. 12?

Anyway, feeling kind of OCD about this ... which means that any decision will inspire regret.  Perhaps the Scottish du Regret by Yann-Fanch Perroch?

[michik]

Basically it is difficult to compare G/C/Acc with G/C/F because for me a G/C/F is
a C/F two row extended with an outer G row and additional G basses ...  not a G/C extend with an inner F row as it may seen from
the position of a G/C player.
Because of the missing F pull bass on a standard G/C/F you have to play tunes in a different way than on a G/C/Acc
with a bidirectional F bass.

Maybe it would be interesting to compare G/C/Acc with D/G/C, but I have never seen such a thing ...

----------------

My G/C/Acc is build in a way that it can be played together with drone instruments - which is very common in bal folk.

Drone instruments - e.g. hurdy gurdy (I play hurdy gurdy myself) or a cornemuse du centre - switch usually between modes
with the same tonica: Gmaj/Gmin, Cmaj/Cdor, .... whereas a melodeon switches between Gmaj/Amin, Cmaj/Ddor

These drone instruments are usually played in the keys of C or G  (Cmaj, Cdor, Cmin, Gmaj, Gdor, Gmin, ...)
So you must be a possibility to do basically the same on the melodeon:
*) C maj and Gmaj are covered by the C and G row.
*) Additionaly there are accidentials for the other modes: Ab (=G#) for Cmin, Eb for Cmin and Cdor and Gmin, Bb for Cmin,Cdor, Gdor an Gmin (and additional basses in Ab(G#), Eb and Bb).
Beside them there are also accidentials in C#, Apush and Gpull

You simply cannot do that with a G/C/F  (or D/G/C) .... that's why I think G/C/Acc is far more versatile.

[Chris Ryall]

I too have travelled this journey.  In my case I got MAD and ended up with D/G and  C/F 2 rows .. 'cover all keys'. It's actually better for your music to work on your technique and for this a C/G (or equivalent) and plenty of 'accidentals' is the beast to go for. 

Weird word that 'accidentals'. It sort of regards notes that don't lie on the diatonic rows as litter - whereas they are actually just a different type of music. But I digress.

In my case my C#/D/G Oakwood was the one that hit the spot. Previous owner Ed (please correct me, Ed) tended to use it as a C#/D and D/G strapped together - but in my case the C# row is a rich font of non diatonic notes and handy reversed ones. (The other box is essentially a copy, same fingering).

A 12 bass is very important for this as the basic bass has several chords wrong direction for the scales you want.  eg C minor is nearly all pull, but your chord is push.  Actually - I'd say get an 18 bass, which has all notes and most chords both directions. My "other box" has 18 and it dissolves all such limitations.

Or you could go the B/C route (C/C/C#?) which is in essence all keys .. at the cost of an awkward bass end.

Hope this helps.  Merry Xmas

[nemethmik]

You simply cannot do that with a G/C/F  (or D/G/C) .... that's why I think G/C/Acc is far more versatile.

michik is completely right. G/C/accidentals 18-bass is the way to go. The accidentals row for these G/C boxes is very smartly designed. Here is B.Loffet design http://diato.org/pdf/3r18b-2.pdf
Castagnari Handry/18 factory recomnmended layout is the Heim system.
These G/C/accidentals are getting very popular and very easy to sell on http://dia-tonic.com

[ganderbox]

for me a G/C/F is a C/F two row extended with an outer G row and additional G basses ...  not a G/C extend with an inner F row

Absolutely agree. If you have a G/C/F with standard basses, you get the usual layout for a C/F plus some extras for the G row, but miss out on the full G/C basses. If you want a souped up G/C, then you need to go along the G/C/acc route, and if you can manage 18 basses, so much the better because then you will end up with a really versatile instrument.
Another reason is that if you play a 2.5 row, and are happy with it, then you are already a G/C (or whatever) + acc player. If you go for a G/C/F,  you'll probably find yourself missing out on some of the things you like about your Pastourelle.

[Gary P Chapin]

Very thoughtful responses!  Thank you!  I think Michlk summed it up nicely.  I hadn't thought of the G/C/F as C/F + G, but as a G/C + F.  A D/G/C sounds interesting in theory, but the physics would be troubling, since the low G of the is already (delightfully) growly.  G/C is the lowest pitched box.  D/G the highest.

If I'm honest with myself, the 2.5 row G/C does everything I need it to do, and the most logical thing to do in acquiring another box is to go for another set of keys -- flat keys for playing with brass (Dad's a trumpet player) -- or something like that.  If my Pastourelle ends up being "the last accordion I ever buy" I can count myself lucky.

I have to admit I was kind of indifferent to the 18 bass.  The extra four on my 12 bass have been touched once in the years that I've had this thing.  But the layouts you describe, with alternate directions, etc. make a good argument for going with the 18.

As for going the B/C route ... the truth is I love the "Vienna tuning" and would hate to give that up.  It's a fine line.  I want "more flexibility" but am not really interested in being "fully chromatic."

[Andy in Vermont]

You simply cannot do that with a G/C/F  (or D/G/C) .... that's why I think G/C/Acc is far more versatile.

It would have been more accurately to say "You cannot do that simply on a GCF," because you CAN do it, just not simply.
Playing as a G/C box: you'd need to play across all three rows to get the F major chord on the press when playing in A minor, for example.  This means you cannot simply learn what is in, say, a tablature for G/C.

All the accidentals that you mentioned are included on a standard G/C/F, on the "bottom" buttons -- the ones closest to the chin.

As for the info about gurdy's playing primary in G/D and related chords, that's not really correct, but perhaps it applies to the gurdy players in Vienna.  The gurdy player in my band prefers the bourbonaise (sp?) tuning, which puts him in D and G and related keys.  We enjoy playing in D minor, which is simple on my G/C/F box.  Playing in G minor is not simple, and I still haven't gotten used to it, but again: it is not correct to say that one "simply cannot" do it.

Gary, there is a CD in my collection from a player who is active in the French dance music scene -- I'll look it up -- I believe that he is playing on a Castagnari in G/C/F with a custom button layout -- the 11/12/11 layout has some advantage for G/C/F.  Mine is 12/11/10, with low notes and accidentals.  It is quite a reach for the accidentals button on F row when I need it. 
-Andy

[daveyaaa]

I bought a GCF for Norteno and zydeco but am wondering whether it is worth changing the basses to the 2.5 row layout.I think this would enable me to play french tunes as well. Or would it be better to get a GC ( I thought I'd be able to do everything with a GCF but didn't really check the bass layout ...must pay more attention)

[waltzman]

I bought a GCF for Norteno and zydeco but am wondering whether it is worth changing the basses to the 2.5 row layout.I think this would enable me to play french tunes as well. Or would it be better to get a GC ( I thought I'd be able to do everything with a GCF but didn't really check the bass layout ...must pay more attention)

You can still play french tunes on your G/C/F with exactly the same fingering (as a G/C two row) on the inner two rows and the lower eight basses.  C/F sounds fine in the upper octave in my opinion. If you are wanting to play french music with others or learn tunes by ear off of Youtube, then getting a G/C would be very useful.  If you wish to play a lot of different styles of music with chordal accompaniment then it is hard to beat a three row G/C/F.  It is used internationally and is probably the most common diatonic button box on the planet.

[Gary P Chapin]

I agree that while the G/C is most common for French, C/F is also common.  I played with a hurdy gurdy player here in Maine, and the tuning of his instrument was such that stuff that I usually played on the G/C was in tune with him when I transferred it over to a C/F that I briefly owned.  And I agree that the F row sounded fine in the upper register.

Can I just say again that there seems to be something magical about the Vienna tuning, the fact that the instrument really wants you to succeed.  Like, whatever direction you're going, hit a bass or chord button and chances are, it'll fit.  After playing band instruments for years -- and trying a B/C box -- getting the A/D that I did was a dream.  I think this is why I'm drawn to the G/C/F ... it's almost like a mystical thing.  But the arguments for the G/C/accidental are very compelling and -- should I get to that point -- may very likely win the day.

I'm only exaggerating a little.   

And I've decided to order the Handry from the Button Box for a try out.   

[Steve C.]

I had gotten a GCF Benny/12 bass mainly because I had played Hohner 3 rows and was used to the accidentals at the top.

Whenever I think of getting a GC# with 18 bass, FH, JPL or MP style I think about giving up my virtual CF.

If I was moving from a DG or other 2 row, and keeping it, I would go 18 bass.

[daveyaaa]

Thanks for your explanation waltzman. I only ever play with a friend who's a guitar player so I usually force him to fit in with me.It helps that he knows what he's doing as well.

[waltzman]

Thanks for your explanation waltzman. I only ever play with a friend who's a guitar player so I usually force him to fit in with me.It helps that he knows what he's doing as well.

You shouldn't have any problem then.  The french tunes that would be in Am, G, and C on the G/C will just come out in Dm, C, and F on your three row GCF.

[EeeJay]

In my case my C#/D/G Oakwood was the one that hit the spot. Previous owner Ed (please correct me, Ed) tended to use it as a C#/D and D/G strapped together.....

Stand corrected!

I've never perceived any diatonic as 'rows strapped together'. The initial idea of getting a C#/D/G was 'two for the price of one' (under the proviso that if the Irish plan went pear shaped, at least I'd have a good D/G)... but this plan changed... rapidly... as soon as I knew what to do...

FWIW... I sold my original to Chris specifically 'cos I felt the need for 18 bass...

Ed J

[Andy in Vermont]

You can still play french tunes on your G/C/F with exactly the same fingering (as a G/C two row) on the inner two rows and the lower eight basses.  [...] If you are wanting to play french music with others or learn tunes by ear off of Youtube, then getting a G/C would be very useful. 

Just to elaborate on this: you can still play the French tunes in G/C and related minor keys on a G/C/F box, it is just that you can't learn them exactly as they are in the tablature if you are interested in playing the F chords -- on a G/C box playing in A minor, the F chord will often occur on the pull.  On a G/C/F box, you then need to work out the fingering for that chord on the press.  I have done this with several Breton tunes, and have found that the "breathing" of the bellows feels very 'right' when you do this.  It doesn't affect playing French tunes with others unless you need the bellows to move in the same direction for some bizarre choreography requirement!
If you learn some Quebecois-style 3-row (ala Denis Pepin and Ph. Bruneau), you will find that the F chords will occur on the press and you'll be playing across all three rows in other keys as well, for instance, Fisher's Hornpipe in F.  This is a good exercise that will accustom the player to using all three rows.
-Andy

[waltzman]

You can still play french tunes on your G/C/F with exactly the same fingering (as a G/C two row) on the inner two rows and the lower eight basses.  [...] If you are wanting to play french music with others or learn tunes by ear off of Youtube, then getting a G/C would be very useful. 

Just to elaborate on this: you can still play the French tunes in G/C and related minor keys on a G/C/F box, it is just that you can't learn them exactly as they are in the tablature if you are interested in playing the F chords -- on a G/C box playing in A minor, the F chord will often occur on the pull.  On a G/C/F box, you then need to work out the fingering for that chord on the press.  I have done this with several Breton tunes, and have found that the "breathing" of the bellows feels very 'right' when you do this.  It doesn't affect playing French tunes with others unless you need the bellows to move in the same direction for some bizarre choreography requirement!
If you learn some Quebecois-style 3-row (ala Denis Pepin and Ph. Bruneau), you will find that the F chords will occur on the press and you'll be playing across all three rows in other keys as well, for instance, Fisher's Hornpipe in F.  This is a good exercise that will accustom the player to using all three rows.
-Andy

Andy,

Do you know of a good scource for learning three row Quebecois style?

Michael

[Andy in Vermont]

Do you know of a good scource for learning three row Quebecois style?

Hi Michael,
Unfortunately, there are no books or DVDs, making it difficult for the "distance learner" -- however accessible several teachers would be in Quebec.
I would recommend that you track down the Ph. Bruneau book -- this is a book of transcriptions, including tunes played on GCF.  Combined with some recordings, you should be able to work out some of the fingerings, based on the bass/chords.
Otherwise, there are some great CDs.  Check out Gaston Nolet, anything by Denis Pepin (unfortunately, many of his recordings are out-of-print, but perhaps via interlibrary loan...?).
Denis Pepin told me that the older tradition of three row playing in Quebec was to treat the three-row box as three one-row boxes, but that Bruneau developed a cross-row style, which Denis elaborated.  There are a handful of players today who play in this style.
There is a video of Bruneau playing box as accompaniment for a step dancer (Pierre Chartrand), and you can really get a sense of his cross-rowing technique.
I wish that I could be more helpful.  It would be great if there was a DVD or even a book of tablatures, but I'm afraid there is not.

[Chris Ryall]

Stand corrected!   I've never perceived any diatonic as 'rows strapped together'. The initial idea of getting a C#/D/G was 'two for the price of one' (under the proviso that if the Irish plan went pear shaped, at least I'd have a good D/G)... but this plan changed... rapidly... as soon as I knew what to do...

FWIW... I sold my original to Chris specifically 'cos I felt the need for 18 bass...   Ed J

Well that's that little issue sorted   Your specific choice was quite prophetic then - my own next purchase was  an 18 bass

To return to thread - yes, it's very much about "knowing what to do".  Unfortunately decision parameters are different for all of us depending on musical taste (or membership of a morris side) and sometimes depth of pocket. No right answer, but it's interesting to see box acquisition falling into definite patterns on threads of this forum.

[waltzman]

Do you know of a good scource for learning three row Quebecois style?

Hi Michael,
Unfortunately, there are no books or DVDs, making it difficult for the "distance learner" -- however accessible several teachers would be in Quebec.
I would recommend that you track down the Ph. Bruneau book -- this is a book of transcriptions, including tunes played on GCF.  Combined with some recordings, you should be able to work out some of the fingerings, based on the bass/chords.
Otherwise, there are some great CDs.  Check out Gaston Nolet, anything by Denis Pepin (unfortunately, many of his recordings are out-of-print, but perhaps via interlibrary loan...?).
Denis Pepin told me that the older tradition of three row playing in Quebec was to treat the three-row box as three one-row boxes, but that Bruneau developed a cross-row style, which Denis elaborated.  There are a handful of players today who play in this style.
There is a video of Bruneau playing box as accompaniment for a step dancer (Pierre Chartrand), and you can really get a sense of his cross-rowing technique.
I wish that I could be more helpful.  It would be great if there was a DVD or even a book of tablatures, but I'm afraid there is not.

Thanks, Andy.