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Author Topic: Workshop (Foam) Update  (Read 8285 times)

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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Workshop (Foam) Update
« on: June 07, 2011, 11:46:26 AM »

There has been a lot of discussion about the foam over the last couple of years around the web, so here is my update on the issue.

Over the last two years about 70% of the accordions that go out of my workshop are made from foam, this is with agreement of the customer who firstly wants a very light box or just loves the sound produced by them.

The foam that I use is not polystyrene, it is boat-building foam and is almost as expensive as solid timber or ply with a fancy veneer on it.

It is not a cheap practice to make the instrument from foam as it is far easier to get a solid bit of timber or ply and put it through the band saw and instant frames or end plates, whereas the foam has to be cut down in size then veneered on either side with 1 or 2 veneers (dependent
 on size) on each surface, so this should add substantially to the cost of the instrument but I do not cost that in.

The foam with good veneers on either side ends end up very stiff, I have had to be careful with highly decorative (quilted) veneers as the tensile strength is reduced by the lack of long straight grain. The construction of the accordion is very strong as the box girder construction in itself is very strong.

Over the last 2 years I have been exhibiting two identical instruments at folk festival here in Australia. One instrument is made from solid timber whereas the other has been made with about 80% foam. The result of this exposure has shown that about 60% of players prefer the foam accordion for its sound and lighter weight. There is not much to choose from the sound of either and it is hard to get players to explained the difference of the sound, to me the foam box does have extended top end and the bottom end is also stronger.

Most of my latest research has been into small and lighter melodeons where when I started out making instruments I was looking more at heavier instruments to produce a better sound, but I took it a little to far when a woman said to me that “I love the sound of the accordion, but I will never buy one as it is far to heavy”   

I had an instrument back in my workshop after about 14 years for its first service and a little updating with noise reduction and bushings on bass buttons.
The first thing I noticed was that the pallet board had got a little sticky, causing the back edge of the pallets to stick down, this was caused by the break down of the old marine varnish I used at the time, for some reason it was not a problem on the outside (stay away from marine varnish.)

After a few hours in the workshop I had it up playing like new and was blown away by the difference (just different; not better or worse) in sound to my newer boxes. This instrument was made from Camphor Laurel, not a heavy timber but I had made the instrument with thicker sections throughout  (frames 7 mm thick not 5 mm, pallet boards 5 mm thick not 3mm,) reed blocks made from macrocarpa (European Fur) with thick shoes. This accordion was defanatly bottom end dominant, and had a sound closer to my heavy C Jeffries G/D (3 row original) concertina than to my latest accordions that have a good mixture of all frequencies bottom to top.  The good thing about good top end (I have the feeling) it is those that help drive the reed with good fast pick up. Of course there are quite a few players who prefer the bottom end dominant sound.

After 35 years + involvement with concertina and accordions I now think I’m just about getting a handle on it. My ideas have gone through 180deg’ on a few occasions and I now look back on my early instruments and I think I understand them a little better now than when I first made them.

I have had some discussions with a few concertina makers and it looks like they also are heading (or are already there) in the same direction, the instrument has to be very rigid so there is no frequency response within the instrument, when you think a little about it the foam will not respond to frequencies so there is very little lost, so just another way around the issue.

Foam has just about replaced my use of balsa wood, as it is half the weight I even make the pallets from foam and I find I can then reduce the need for felting and use leather straight on the foam without causing air loss or extra noise. Reed blocks are made from foam without any further preparation and the wax adheres very well to it.

If any body would like to do any further research here is a good place to start;
http://www.diabgroup.com/aao/a_products/a_prods_3.html 
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brianread

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 12:10:09 PM »

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the details of one of your foam melodians, and also to hear one played.
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Brian Read
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all played "lefty" with mostly an extra air button, except the Concertinas which I play the conventional way round.

rees

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 08:26:50 PM »

Utterly fascinating - thanks, Peter.
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Malcolm Austen

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 10:20:51 PM »

Thanks for the extra details I was very interested when you first mentioned it, are there any over here in the UK?
Also are you still working on Balsa wood reed blocks?

malcolm
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 02:01:18 PM »

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the details of one of your foam melodians, and also to hear one played.

Unfortunately the closest foam box to you is across the creek in North Holland, or up in Scandinavia.
I will post a photo in the next few days and I'm hoping to get a recording up shortly.
Peter
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »

Thanks for the extra details I was very interested when you first mentioned it, are there any over here in the UK?
Also are you still working on Balsa wood reed blocks?

malcolm
I have a large stock of balsa wood that will probably not get used as foam seems to give me a better end product with a far better frequency response. If I was looking for a bottom end dominant instrument I would probably use a heavier timber like rock maple. Its interesting to note that some of the better Italian Piano accordions use mahogany on the reed blocks.

As I mentioned before the closest box to you is across the creek in North Holland, this was my new Frans Tromp model C/F/Acc (Tromp) with 14 bass buttons,this has been tuned to a lay out developed by Frans that has a few re arrangements in the F row, and the Accidental row is what I call my Tromp system. The owner of this box (Liesbeth Zaggsma) is only to pleased to play (or let you play) it for any visiting box player.  
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 02:32:45 PM by Peter Stormy Hyde »
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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 02:24:32 PM »

Utterly fascinating - thanks, Peter.
Thanks Rees, so how is your work going?
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 09:04:48 AM »

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the details of one of your foam melodians, and also to hear one played.

g'day Brian
I think we should have that photo attached this time.
The instrument is an E/E#, made for a bloke in the next Village.
You should be able to notice the pink layer under the Brazilian rosewood veneer (off cuts from a local guitar maker) on the treble end plate.

All the frames are foam under the Blackwood veneer, and I always trim all edges on the frames with a heavy timber, in this case quilted pink gum.
regards
Peter
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Harmonicatunes

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 04:24:42 AM »

I visited Peter Hyde's stand at the National Folk Festival in Canberra, Australia in April of this year.

As an almost brand new player, I was glad that Peter took the time to explain basic (and not so basic) aspects of the instrument to me.

I tried his instruments. I can barely play, and have not tried many good melodeons. However I know a bit about vintage guitars and an awful lot about custom harmonicas. I can pick a good instrument, I think.

To me, Peter Hyde's boxes were just superb. Compact, light, full featured, great sound, easy to play, extremely well made.

The only problem I can see is that if you got one, you'd never need anything else.
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waltzman

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2011, 01:19:42 PM »

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the details of one of your foam melodians, and also to hear one played.

g'day Brian
I think we should have that photo attached this time.
The instrument is an E/E#, made for a bloke in the next Village.
You should be able to notice the pink layer under the Brazilian rosewood veneer (off cuts from a local guitar maker) on the treble end plate.

All the frames are foam under the Blackwood veneer, and I always trim all edges on the frames with a heavy timber, in this case quilted pink gum.
regards
Peter



Very beautiful woods.  What does it weigh?
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 11:35:30 AM »

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the details of one of your foam melodians, and also to hear one played.

g'day Brian
I think we should have that photo attached this time.
The instrument is an E/E#, made for a bloke in the next Village.
You should be able to notice the pink layer under the Brazilian rosewood veneer (off cuts from a local guitar maker) on the treble end plate.

All the frames are foam under the Blackwood veneer, and I always trim all edges on the frames with a heavy timber, in this case quilted pink gum.
regards
Peter



Very beautiful woods.  What does it weigh?

The timbers are very nice, to think the Brazilian rosewood was a reject as the guitar owners do not like the blond heartwood, just as well that box players are not as finicky This one comes in at 3.2 Kilos.
regards
Peter
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 12:08:21 AM by Peter Stormy Hyde »
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diatonix

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 07:21:08 PM »

Hi Peter, just curious: does the foam harden sufficiently to hold the bellows pins (and all the screws that usually go into melodeon casings) over time?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 09:58:47 PM by diatonix »
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Owen Woods

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2011, 07:44:58 PM »

I would love to hear a sample of one of these. Well, I'd like even more to play one, it's a fascinating process. Hope that someone in England decides to buy one so that we can all deluge them with visitations.
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george garside

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2011, 08:20:24 PM »

I Know its not the same thing but it does prove the strength, lightness & sound deadening powers of foam   construction. I haave made some odd shaped i.e. not rectangular very large doors approx 4 ft x 7 ft as part of a loft conversion by sandwiching foam (glued with pva adhesive between 2 very thin sheets of plywood with only a  1" x1"  softwood perimeter frame .   They are amazingly light, totally rigid  and fairly soundproof.  On the basis of this experience with foam  I would very happily go along with its use for box construction.

george
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diatonix

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2011, 09:01:58 PM »

I'm afraid some people would find the idea of soundproof accordions quite appealing... ;D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 09:59:11 PM by diatonix »
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 11:06:59 AM »

Hi Peter, just curious: does the foam harden sufficiently to hold the bellows pins (and all the screws that usually go into melodeon casings) over time?

The pins do not go through the foam as I put a  timber rail on either side. You will notice the red timber where you would expect to find the bellows pins, and the same goes for the red near the end plate, that is part of the frame that i cut off to support the end plate.

Peter
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 11:12:24 AM »

I would love to hear a sample of one of these. Well, I'd like even more to play one, it's a fascinating process. Hope that someone in England decides to buy one so that we can all deluge them with visitations.

I have a few recordings on DVD and I'm trying to get my head around my new Mac to try and get it up on youtube, with luck it should be up shortly.

I have 3 foam boxes "across the creek" in Holland, but there is to much water in the way.

Peter
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 11:18:05 AM »

I Know its not the same thing but it does prove the strength, lightness & sound deadening powers of foam   construction. I haave made some odd shaped i.e. not rectangular very large doors approx 4 ft x 7 ft as part of a loft conversion by sandwiching foam (glued with pva adhesive between 2 very thin sheets of plywood with only a  1" x1"  softwood perimeter frame .   They are amazingly light, totally rigid  and fairly soundproof.  On the basis of this experience with foam  I would very happily go along with its use for box construction.

george

The good thing about the foam it will glue with PVA glue and you can machine it, you can put it through a thickness-er sander without it burning, and I have even planed it with a good sharp plane.

I think the good old "Mosquito" of WW11 fame proves how good sandwiching is.
Peter
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Peter Stormy Hyde

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »

I would love to hear a sample of one of these. Well, I'd like even more to play one, it's a fascinating process. Hope that someone in England decides to buy one so that we can all deluge them with visitations.

I finally got there with a DVD of a single voice box, here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrOngKgZjA
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Workshop (Foam) Update
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 04:24:42 PM »

I finally got there with a DVD of a single voice box, here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrOngKgZjA

Sounds great! I'd like to hear more in the upper octaves!
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