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[Howard Jones]

When did the G/D become the standard model for English music?

I had followed the link in the 3/2 Hornpipe thread to Paul Davenport's piece on hornpipes, and was struck by this comment:

"Knight?s hornpipe is in the key of F major and is unusual in modern terms since it is in a flat key. This automatically makes it more difficult for the 20th century traditional player who, since the late 19th century has become more used to melodic material in sharp keys due in a large part to the influence of the diatonic accordion or melodeon as it is customarily described." (my italics)

I thought I had read somewhere that the first batch of G/D melodeons was imported into this country in the 1950s or 60s by Peter Kennedy to facilitate playing along with fiddlers.  Is this an urban myth?

In East Anglia, where the one-row dominated, C appears to have been the usual key. What keys were favoured by traditional players in other areas?  Was the G/D well-established before the folk revival, or is it a modern introduction?

[triskel]

When did the G/D become the standard model for English music?

Howard,

Check out these threads:

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1807&view=findpost&p=17194

http://melodeon.aimoo.com/General-queries-and-info/whats-wrong-dont-people-play-c-1-880803.html

[Howard Jones]

Thanks, those threads are probably where I originally saw the reference to Peter Kennedy.

It seems that Paul Davenport is wrong to blame the preference for sharp keys on melodeonists.  So should we blame the fiddlers for playing everything in G, D and A?  If so, is this a feature of the revival?  The old fiddlers' manuscript collections show tunes in a variety of keys, and of course orchestral violinists are able to play in many keys. Is it only the modern revival fiddlers who are so limited?

D/G isn't really an ideal key for melodeons, it's too high and squeaky.  G/C and C/F boxes sound a lot better, but we seem to have got ourselves into a Catch 22 where we all play D/Gs in order to play along with the fiddlers who, despite playing fully chromatic instruments, can't be bothered to play in other keys.

As an anglo player I often play in C, and sometimes F, but this excludes most D/G melodeonists, and even the fiddlers complain (with less reason) that they can't play in those keys.

[Ebor_fiddler]

D, G & A are preferred by fiddlers because we don't need to change our finger pattern on the fretboard. Yes, we do have a fully chromatic instrument, but not all of us are called Kennedy! 
I also suspect that the fiddler's manuscript collections were put together by minority clever B****rs. Many fiddlers in earlier generations, though s***hot players, were musically illiterate, as indeed are many excellent players today. 


Chris.

[smiley]

Check out these threads:

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1807&view=findpost&p=17194

http://melodeon.aimoo.com/General-queries-and-info/whats-wrong-dont-people-play-c-1-880803.html

Those links are really interesting to a forum newbie like me. The concertina.net message from Dec 2004 quotes 'Howard Mitchell on the melodeon.net forum' saying:

Some years ago I asked Peter Kennedy to relate the story of the introduction of D/G melodeons into England as his name always seems to come up.

He said something like:

In the 1950s most melodeons were based in C with either F or G as a second row and the half row, often in the club format, to give more chromaticity. He was collecting songs and tunes in Northumberland and found strangely that much of the repertoire played by fiddlers in particular was of Irish origin and in G or D and sometimes A. He investigated and found that an anomolous reception of Radio Eirrean (sp) occurred in the NE and local players were picking up Irish tunes for their repertoire from the radio.

Now Irish melodeon players had adopted chromatic instruments based on C with either B or C# as a second row to enable them to play in other keys but this was not generally popular in England and the local melodeon players couldn't join in with this repertoire. So to help local melodeon players Peter arranged for Hohner to produce a batch melodeons in G/D, I believe that they were stocked and distributed by Bells of Surbiton and the EFDSS shop.

And it all followed on from there...

[TomB-R]

D/G isn't really an ideal key for melodeons, it's too high and squeaky.  G/C and C/F boxes sound a lot better, but we seem to have got ourselves into a Catch 22 where we all play D/Gs in order to play along with the fiddlers who, despite playing fully chromatic instruments, can't be bothered to play in other keys.

Come on Howard, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

"..too high and squeaky" Do you play at the same end of the keyboard as everyone else?

It's not just about familiar fingering patterns for playing the fiddle in D, G & A. Before amplification, volume was crucial, (still is in some situations, outdoor dance playing for morris etc) and "double stringing" is a highly effective way of getting volume, and for most tunes, that works best in those keys.

Don't want to be sidetracking your thread Howard. Is this about melodeon history or complaining about fiddlers?
Tom

[Theo]

Keys in old tunebooks can not be taken at face value.  There are a couple of reasons for this, one is general,  many old tunes were written down by people who only partly understood musical notation, so mistakes were made.  Specifically Northumbrian tune books often include a large proportion of pipe tunes.  Northumbrian small pipes are traditionally in F (plus a little bit)  but their music is almost always written in G, in effect its a transposing instruments.  Scottish highland pipes are actually in Bflat, but traditionally their music is notated in A, so you have to be aware of the context when using old tune collections to work out how tunes were really played.  Fiddle players may well have tuned up or down to play with pipes. 

[TomB-R]

Theo's point about pitch goes wider. Lots of people know about "baroque" pitch being roughly a semitone lower than modern pitch, but early 20th century pitch was higher than modern.  Accepting without argument that those weird fiddle players like playing in G D & A, at current pitch tuning a fiddle down a tone to play with a C/F box (which may well sound better) is not very satisfactory.  When pitch was higher the effect could have been less marked.
Then again, you've got "Eb" Irish players, tuning up a semitone for extra brightness etc, and playing C#/D style on D/D# boxes.....

[Howard Jones]

TomBR asks if I play at the same end of the fingerboard as everyone else?

If you mean do I play in the lower register, yes I do.  But a brief glance at YouTube will show that many continental players also play up in the higher register.  I don't seem many British players venturing up to that end of the fingerboard, which on a D/G is of interest mainly to dogs and bats 

I'm not really complaining about fiddlers. I would just comment that even amateur classical violinists are expected to play in a wider range of keys, it's only in the folk world that you can be considered a virtuoso while being able to play in only 3 keys  :) However I recognise that fiddle styles demand certain techniques which work best in D,G and A.

My point is that lower-pitched melodeons sound better than D/Gs. If it wasn't for the need to play along with everyone else, I would choose a G/C or C/F (which seems to have been the common key up to the 1950s) over a D/G.  It's noticeable that many solo performers use boxes in other keys, and not just for song accompaniment.

In the past, other keys seem to have been usual, and there were plenty of fiddlers in East Anglia, alongside all those C one-rows.  I'm just wondering how we've ended up playing everything in G D and A, apparently for the benefit of the fiddlers.

It's too late now, of course, to do anything about it.

[Malcolm Clapp]

Interesting thread.

Three options which I have found to give, imho, a better sounding D/G box:

1. Have your favoured repairer to make up and mount sets of reeds in D/G an octave below the standard D/G pitch. I've done 7 or 8 Hohner 2 row melodeons this way over the years, and yes, the D row is a little slow at the bottom end due to the limitation of the length of reed, but it does allow you to play higher up on the keyboard (perhaps ergonomically more satisfactory?)

2. Play an instrument with 2 sets of clarinet reeds plus an octave set, e.g. a Castagnari Tommy. An expensive option perhaps...   :'(

3. Modify the reeds to octave tuning, though this is perhaps not an option to those players who like a bit (or a lot?) of tremolo. I've found this option to be very acceptable to participants in Irish sessions where, at least in Oz, any hint of tremolo is frowned upon....

All the above arrangements seem to be comparatively bat and dog proof....

MC

[sCANdanADIAN]

I first learned on an A/D and I always transposed G tunes onto the A row so that when I found an old G/C/F I had no problem playing G tunes.The idea of a D/G seemed strange to me,I wanted those low notes.

D/G tuning would be okay if you have a 4th button doh,a B push and a C nat on the draw.Adding an F nat push with the C basses tuned to F on the push would also be nice.Then you could play G7 on the C tunes.

The biggest mystery is why A/D boxes weren't more popular especially when G tunes are fairly easy

[triskel]

The biggest mystery is why A/D boxes weren't more popular

I've been known to say the same of D/A concertinas...

[Stiamh]

The biggest mystery is why A/D boxes weren't more popular especially when G tunes are fairly easy

Really? A friend of mine has one and the C natural is down at the very bottom of the D row, on the push. Hardly makes G tunes "easy"...

A/D boxes are very popular in Quebec btw - if you see a two-row box around here, chances are very strong that's what it is.  But you don't hear tunes in G major on them.

[Stiamh]

you can listen to samples here)

It's interesting to note also, when you remember that music for dancing was often provided by lilting when no fiddler was present, that in D-pitch most dance tunes go above the vocal range of the average person. Take them down to B-pitch and the problem is solved.

I much prefer a mellower sound myself. When playing the whistle solo or for my own amusement, I'll always choose one in C or Bb over the standard D. And for the same reason at home I tend to play my B/C box, which I treat as though it were a C#/D, meaning that everything comes out a tone lower.

Perhaps it's time for a flat-pitch movement in the English trad. scene?

[Theo]

Perhaps it's time for a flat-pitch movement in the English trad. scene?

Northumbrian smallpipes always sound better to my ear with a chanter in their traditional pitch of F +20 cents, rather than in G. 

[Dazbo]

"baroque" pitch being roughly a semitone lower than modern pitch, but early 20th century pitch was higher than modern

Actually pitch has wandered erratically all over the place with time and geography

2. Play an instrument with 2 sets of clarinet reeds plus an octave set, e.g. a Castagnari Tommy. An expensive option perhaps...   

Totally unsatisfactory in my opinion.  Still way to squeaky for consistantly playing in the upper octave and the bass end isn't bass enough on the Tommy.

My point is that lower-pitched melodeons sound better than D/Gs

Couldn't agree more - anyone for the Campaign for the Abolition of the DG box (CADGe)?

[C age ing]

Perhaps it's time for a flat-pitch movement in the English trad. scene?

Steve,
In my days around the Folk Clubs, there were a lot of singers and players who were flat, in all senses.
Old and grouchy Bill.

[Doug Anderson]

95% of my playing is by myself for my own enjoyment. I started with a D/G but after Gary Chapin let me play his big G/C Saltarelle at the Northeast Squeeze-In several years ago I switched to a G/C and haven't regretted it. When I play with others and they insist on playing in a key other than G or C, I put down the melodeon and pick up my English concertina.

[Waltham]

In my days around the Folk Clubs, there were a lot of singers and players who were flat, in all senses.

A certain folk club round here that I won't name earned the somewhat cynical description "A complete absence of talent---in all senses of the word".

[BruceHenderson]

95% of my playing is by myself for my own enjoyment. I started with a D/G but after Gary Chapin let me play his big G/C Saltarelle at the Northeast Squeeze-In several years ago I switched to a G/C and haven't regretted it. When I play with others and they insist on playing in a key other than G or C, I put down the melodeon and pick up my English concertina.

    I spent a week-long music workshop last summer ('07) with Sabin Jacques of Montreal.  We played D-boxes but we didn't play a single tune all week in the key of D or Bm.  I thought that my head was going to explode by Thursday but I learned *a lot*.  I still don't like keys that have the tonic on the pull but I sure got better at doing what I don't like!