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Author Topic: six and eight reed combos  (Read 10473 times)

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Mike Hirst

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six and eight reed combos
« on: April 04, 2012, 12:26:35 PM »

Recently I have been going over past mel.net postings re six and eight voice D/C# combos. I've been discussing with a friend the possibilities for commissioning such an instrument (we have good connections with some of the less well known Italian makers).  I've been jotting down reed combinations mentioned in past posts. Thus far I have:

LLMMMH
LMMMHH
LLMMMM
LMMMMH

For six reed config.

and:

LLMMMMHH
LMMMMMMH

for eight reeds.

I note from previous posts that low reeds, although sometimes previously tuned apart, are more acceptable to contemporary sensibilities if tuned in unison. Similarly H reeds can be tuned apart or in unison. The big question I'm struggling with is what to do with multiple M reeds. I understand three reed musette (M- M M+), but I cant figure what do do with four and five M reed sets. Does anyone have any experience or suggestions?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:08:50 PM by Mike Hirst »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »

 ??? Are you going to use an auxiliary air compressor ?  ??? Or a huge bellows?
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2012, 08:19:32 PM »

Hi Mike,

I'm happy to hear about your project since I love the historical Irish-American boxes with 3 - 8 sets of reeds (usually in D or D/C#).  That seems a type of box that has rarely been made in recent years.

I have seen and played a good few vintage Walters, Baldonis, etc., and I still own and play a couple. The tuning and voicing issues you mention interact * a lot * with other design factors, so I hope you will forgive a digression here.

A couple of things to consider:  

1) Do you absolutely need a full inside row of melody buttons in C# (to cover the notes not available on the outside D row) or can you manage with 3 - 7 buttons on the inside row?   The 13 key and 15 key boxes (10 + 3 as shown below, or 10 + 5) can be extremely versatile, and allow all the pallets to be in a single row on the soundboard, thus the box need only have half the number of double-sided melody reedblocks as it does voices.  A 6 voice box like this only needs 3 reedblocks, an 8 voice box needs 4 (if the pallets are in a single row).  Of course, if one or two ranks of reeds are laid flat, parallel to the soundboard, then you have different design options.

2) Do you plan to have stops (or multiple couplers) to provide many voicing options using the 6 or 8 sets of reeds, or do you plan to have just one or two choices of voices (e.g. a single lever switch, as was common in the old boxes)?

Shown in the first pic below are a 10 key Baldoni in D with 6 sets of reeds (LMMMMH) and a 13 key Baldoni with 10 keys in D plus a partial row of 3 keys in C#, that has 8 sets of reeds (LMMMMMMH).  Each has only one rear-of-keyboard coupler that selects between two voicing options.  Not every possible choice, but the sounds they do have are great!  The limited number of accidentals present on the 13 key box allow thousands of tunes outside the D scale to be played (with some creative use of octave jumps etc) but only 1 row of pallets is needed, so only 4 reedblocks for the 8 voices. The second photo shows a Saltarelle Shamrock in C#/D, 4 voices (LMMH) that has every combination of those voices available, and a Paolo in D/C#, again 4 voice (LMMH) that has only two couplers (and an unrestored Globe, LMMH with 4 stops). The Saltarelle and Paolo have as many reedblocks as they have voices, because they have more melody buttons than can be accommodated in a single row of pallets, but they make excellent use of the 4 voices they offer.  The third photo shows a Walters D 1-row with *no couplers* -- LMMM all the time and it always sounds great.

IMO many players could learn to be very happy with a box that has no or only 2 choices of voicing.  But if you want all the choices of voicing, then a 5 voice design (LMH dry as well as M+ and M-) offers lots of different sounds.  The Paolo shown below only offers a choice of LMMH or MM, and so is tuned LH dry, M +, M-. Great sound out of "only" 4 voices.  The Saltarelle with all its options is LMH dry and M+.  How wet you go with those M+ and M- reeds is up to you - I think 17 cents in each direction (around middle A) sounds good.

The old boxes with 4 or more sets of M reeds often sound good with those M reeds set at 3 or 4 different pitches. I personally prefer H reeds to be tuned dry (to the average pitch of the box), and both dry if there are two sets of piccolo.  I like the sound of two sets of bass reeds but they do tend to use a lot of air and so IMO a single set of low reeds may be a better choice for you.  But LLMM is one great traditional option for a D box - or MMHH for a G box. I've seen LLMMMM and LLMMMMHH Walters and Baldonis in D, but only rarely in boxes with more than 15 keys.

To sum up, I would think about LMMMH, LMMH, or LMMM if you want a full two rows of melody buttons -- otherwise the box may tend to become so big that it will be hard ergonomically to get the sound that I think you want.  What tunings you give the M reeds will depend on how versatile the couplers are (if any).  If you are willing to dial down the number of melody buttons to 16 or less, you can probably get a single row of pallets so half as many reedblocks as voices. In that case, you could think about LMMMMH, LMMMHH, etc, with the number and wetness of the M reeds up to your taste. Think also about minimizing the weight of the left hand side. 2 or 4 basses are traditional and were plenty for most of the old players.  That many, or maybe 6 buttons there may prove enough for you to play some good traditional accordion bass and harmony sounds, while still leaving the left end lightweight and nimble. On the other hand, I've seen some wonderful 8 bass Baldonis with very useful chords, and Joe Derrane does a great job with his very extensive bass layout!

Some of the same accordions shown below, and a good few more -- many with 6 - 8 sets of reeds -- can be seen at the following links:

http://www.tedmcgraw.com/EarlyBalWalt.html
http://www.tedmcgraw.com/Mas.Baldoni.html
http://www.nyfolklore.org/pubs/voic36-3-4/accordion.html

Paul Groff



« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:54:49 PM by pgroff »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2012, 08:49:39 PM »

Hi again,

OK, space limited me to 2 pics above.  So here is the Gallagher Walters D box (ca. 1948) with LMMM and no switches.  By the way, the soundboard of this one is drilled for easy installation of an extra reedblock which would bring it up to 6 voices.  Most 6 voice Walters from that time would be LLMMMM.  The Gallagher box would need a new reedblock, 2 more sets of 10 reeds each, and also for the pallets to be switched to longer ones for that conversion to 6 voices.  I have also seen Walters from this period that were 6 voice with the soundboards drilled to facilitate easy expansion to 8 voice.

PG
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2012, 08:55:00 PM »

Paul,

thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed reply. The project is not much more than a pipe dream at the moment, but I' m keen to talk to people and see if it's possible to build something like the old Walters/Baldonis. I had been considering LLM-MM+H as the most logical reed set. I'm reconsidering, in the light of your comments re air flow. As to the question of stops/couplers - I hadn't given it much consideration. Your comments re restricting this to a small number of predefined combinations has set me thinking.

I know, from having one off instruments built before, that the Italian workshops like to design around pre existing components. I'm figuring that the shell of a 3 voice two row would adequately house all the reeds needed to build a 6 voice one row, maybe with only one or two accidentals. Both Dave ( my partner in the project) play single row instruments and we'd settle for a six voice 10 key box. We need to firm up our ideas on exactly what it is that we want before we approach any makers.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 09:01:44 PM »

Hi again,

OK, space limited me to 2 pics above.  So here is the Gallagher Walters D box (ca. 1948) with LMMM and no switches.  By the way, the soundboard of this one is drilled for easy installation of an extra reedblock which would bring it up to 6 voices.  Most 6 voice Walters from that time would be LLMMMM.  The Gallagher box would need a new reedblock, 2 more sets of 10 reeds each, and also for the pallets to be switched to longer ones for that conversion to 6 voices.  I have also seen Walters from this period that were 6 voice with the soundboards drilled to facilitate easy expansion to 8 voice.

PG

Paul,

This is just the instrument I am imagining - 10 buttons, two bass, six voice.  Does Gallagher have any stops?
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 09:08:39 PM »

Hi Mike,

Please keep me posted on your progress (maybe by continuing this thread?).  That way I can learn from your work and enjoy the results vicariously!

I am sure the Italian makers could easily accommodate layouts of 10 + 2, 10 + 3, (may even 11 + 5 which would be really useful) with the pallets all in one row on the soundboard and 6 sets of reeds.  In fact, I would think a little body the size of a Castagnari Dinn 3 ought to accommodate a (10 + 2 ) X 6 voice. Since it is a 3-voice with 23-button keyboard I imagine (not having had one apart) there are 2 rows of pallets, one row of 12 and one of 11, and 3 reedblocks inside.  That soundboard ought to accommodate 12 or more long pallets in a single row.

But to really optimize the design to the layout you want, maybe you could try for the piccolo reeds flat on the soundboard and try to fit in 11 + 5 pallets in a row . . .

Have you read the melnet threads on the new 10 + 2 and 10 + 5 boxes being made in Quebec?

PG

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:19:54 PM by pgroff »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 09:15:13 PM »


Paul,

This is just the instrument I am imagining - 10 buttons, two bass, six voice.  Does Gallagher have any stops?

Hi Mike

Sorry I was not clear.  The Gallagher Walters was made as a 4 voice, LMMM, no stops, no switches, no sliders, just two simple reedblocks on the soundboard. It sounds great.  But that aluminum soundboard is drilled with holes for 6 sets of reeds -- that is, it could easily have another reedblock fitted to it.  The extra holes are blocked off with leather inside the soundboard.  The current pallets are only long enough to cover the holes for 2 reedblocks.  So this box was designed with easy "upgrade-ability" to 6 voice by switching to longer pallets, unblocking the extra holes, and installing one  more reedblock.  And of course if I ever wanted to use the current original 2 reedblocks, but knock out the L reeds, or the M- and M+ reeds, for a gig, I could use a strip of paper under the reedblocks for the evening.

These early-post-WW2 Walters 1-row and 1.5 row boxes often were originally made and sold with an extra set of holes pre-drilled in the soundboard to allow a 4 voice box like the Gallagher to be expanded to 6 voice, or a 6 voice box to 8 voice.

Should also say that IMO the Gallagher box, though pretty lightweight as Walters go, is a good bit bigger than it really needs to be.  That extra size may help with air supply and resonance, but I personally would shrink the design before reproducing it.

PG
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:24:11 PM by pgroff »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 12:08:07 AM »


Paul,

This is just the instrument I am imagining - 10 buttons, two bass, six voice.  Does Gallagher have any stops?

Hi Mike

Sorry I was not clear.  The Gallagher Walters was made as a 4 voice, LMMM, no stops, no switches, no sliders, just two simple reedblocks on the soundboard. It sounds great.  But that aluminum soundboard is drilled with holes for 6 sets of reeds -- that is, it could easily have another reedblock fitted to it.  The extra holes are blocked off with leather inside the soundboard.  The current pallets are only long enough to cover the holes for 2 reedblocks.  So this box was designed with easy "upgrade-ability" to 6 voice by switching to longer pallets, unblocking the extra holes, and installing one  more reedblock.  And of course if I ever wanted to use the current original 2 reedblocks, but knock out the L reeds, or the M- and M+ reeds, for a gig, I could use a strip of paper under the reedblocks for the evening.

These early-post-WW2 Walters 1-row and 1.5 row boxes often were originally made and sold with an extra set of holes pre-drilled in the soundboard to allow a 4 voice box like the Gallagher to be expanded to 6 voice, or a 6 voice box to 8 voice.

Should also say that IMO the Gallagher box, though pretty lightweight as Walters go, is a good bit bigger than it really needs to be.  That extra size may help with air supply and resonance, but I personally would shrink the design before reproducing it.

PG

You were very clear. This is very enlightening.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:27:02 AM by Mike Hirst »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 12:43:29 AM »

easy "upgrade-ability" to 6 voice by switching to longer pallets

Are you saying that all six and eight voice instruments are played using a single pallet for each note? this was certainly my first imagining of how it could work.

 I used to own a German accordion with four stops. The first two stops opened a MM+ pair. the back two stops opened either a third or a fifth harmony. Although the reeds were not of the  best quality, the size of the instrument is unmatched by anything I have owned since. Of particular note is the length of the treble pallets, which were particularly long, - long enough to cover six holes.

Since your last posing I have subsequently conceived a system similar to the mechanism on the bass end of my Hohner Xtreme, where a single button raises two pallets. For a six voice instrument each pallet would open three reeds. Is a single pallet the norm with six and eight reed instruments? or as a more complicated mechanism required?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:50:14 AM by Mike Hirst »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 01:36:33 AM »

Hi Mike,

There were a lot of different types of action tried from the 1920s to the 1960s in the Irish-American accordions.

On one of the links I cited above, there are good photos of Ma McNulty's 6 voice, 10 key Baldoni which I think is an early one, but may have been repaired or reworked since originally sold.  That box has a single long pallet for each button, covering the airholes for 3 double-sided reedblocks.  It also has a double-lever arrangement common in the pre-WW2 6 voice Baldonis and Walters, where the thick levers slide through leather washers and the thin levers keep the pallets properly oriented relative to the soundboard.*

But 4 voice Irish-American boxes (and post-WW2 6 voice boxes) seem usually to have simple pallets and single levers. The 4-voice Gallagher Walters box is built that way, and similar 6 voice Walters that come to mind.**

The pre-WW2 8-voice boxes that I've seen often have two pallets operated by each button (but some do have one long pallet spanning 4 double-sided reedblocks).  And at least one 6 voice box that was discussed here on melnet also has an interesting action with two linked pallets operated by each button:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3998.0.html

PG

* If you use the "zoom" feature to magnify the action pic for this interesting Sebastianelli accordion, recently sold on ebay, I think you can see another example of a similar action with the thick levers sliding through leather washers:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item20c4399a1f&item=140731062815


** edited to add 2 photos  below, of the 4-voice LMMM Gallagher Walters.  In this kind of simple action, the thick aluminum pallet levers don't slide through leather washers, and the springs are under the button levers. I've seen a few 6-voice, 15-key Walters (10 + 5) from this same early post-WW2 period, with the same general type of construction.  Those have 15 long pallets in a single row on the soundboard, each spanning 6 holes (for 3 reedblocks) and with another pair of unused, blocked holes drilled for each pallet, so that another reedblock could be added later (bringing the box to 8 voices).

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 07:15:39 PM by pgroff »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 06:38:20 PM »

Hi Mike and all,

In further answer to Mikes questions about options for the pallets, here are some more action pics of 6 and 8 reed boxes.

First, a 6-voice Baldoni with a single pallet per button, the thick levers lift the pallet and slide through a leather washer, the thinner levers keep the pallets oriented, and the springs are also visible acting down on the pallets.  (Compare the Ma McNulty D Baldoni shown in the link I gave above).

PG
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 06:42:40 PM »

Hi again,

Then here is a 13-key, 8 voice Baldoni.  Again there are levers that lift the pallets and slide, but this time through metal eyelets.  Again the springs act downward on the pallets.  But here there are double pallets per each button, linked with a second lever that keeps them oriented properly.  The pre-war 8 voice boxes often, but not always, have 2 pallets per button.  As I linked above in the previous melnet thread, at least one 6-voice box is known with double pallets per button, and some 8-voice boxes had single long pallets per button.

PG
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 06:56:39 PM »

Hi again,

Close up of an early 10-button, 8-voice Baldoni -- each button operates a single long pallet that spans the holes for 4 reedblocks.  Here you can see how the levers work -- thick levers lift the pallets and slide through the leather washers, the thinner levers keep the pallets oriented properly.  In this case the springs are not visible; they act upward on the button levers, not downward on the pallets themselves.

Then another shot of the J. J. Dwyer 6-voice Baldoni (shown also in my previous post), showing the action from the top end of the box so the springs on that box, which act downward on the pallets, are more visible.

PG
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:59:52 PM by pgroff »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 07:03:58 PM »

Paul,

Thanks for this. I'm just leaving for a gig. I'll post a full reply when I get back.

Best Wishes

Mike
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 10:18:20 PM »

Some fantastic pictures there PG!
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 08:50:06 PM »

Thanks ukebert,

And having gotten permission from the owner of the J. Cunningham Baldoni to post pics, I can add some better ones of that early 8 voice box with single pallet per button and springs on the button levers.  This box is historic and sounds great, though it has seen some repairs and alterations.  However, the two-pallet/button, pallet-sprung mechanism of the black 8-voice 13-key Baldoni shown above, probably made somewhat later than the Cunningham box, does seem to create an easier and faster action.  The simple action of the post-WW2 Gallagher Walters is also very light and fast (possibly aided by the much longer button levers / wide keyboard of the Gallagher box).

PG
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 07:51:38 AM by pgroff »
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 09:47:32 PM »

Paul,

these really are stunning photos. The close ups of pallet mechanisms answer so many questions. Every instrument just looks amazing. As a test I swapped the reed blocks around in my four voice Hohner to replicate the D/C# layout. Although the holes didn't match up I was able to get a feel for how that system would work. I'm very grateful for the time and effort you put into sharing what must be a unique insight into these important, but now largely forgotten instruments.
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 10:18:40 PM »

Mike,

Thank you for your interest, and for your patience as the thread went off-topic.  As I said, I believe the issues of pallet design and switching interact with the tuning question you originally posed, and some of the postwar 4-voice boxes may be relevant also.

I would appreciate hearing about your idea for a new accordion project if/when it goes forward.  I would love to see new accordions built today that take some inspiration from the Irish-American boxes of the 1920s - 1960s.  I wish I were in a position to commission some like that myself.  Some of the accordions pictured here were marvels of invention and craftsmanship, seemingly pushing the limits to make the best accordion possible for the needs of the pro players of the day.  No doubt this investment in innovation and craftsmanship was encouraged by a willingness of the players (or bandleaders, or saloon owners who may have purchased some of them) to invest substantial funds in the instruments. . . Today I guess you might sometimes have a player with a $2000 accordion playing through a $20,000 sound system, then it was the accordion itself that was expected to do both jobs and possibly priced accordingly!

The types pictured here only represent a small sample of the diversity of Irish-American boxes.  I think you mentioned that you had seen other threads here on melnet, but there is a lot of information here, so it's worth searching for more posts and photos from triskel, ray, lars, ted, hugh, hibbs, rich, ben, and others, or for the subjects "Baldoni," "Walters," "Paolo Soprani," "Superior," "Globe," etc.

PG
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 07:55:24 AM by pgroff »
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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 11:18:24 PM »

I've been more than a bit intrigued, and thanks, Paul, for posting all the pics and links.  Sure wish I was in a position to come north for some closer inspiration. 

Now, am I understanding that the 8 voice box has 8 reeds sounding for a single button?  How do you get that much air out of that size box?  Single note playing only?  I haven't finished my 5 voicer yet, but I've been told that it's hard to play with all 5 registers open because of air usage, but he was referring to double noted Cajun style. 
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