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Discussions => Tune of the Month => Topic started by: Clive Williams on October 01, 2012, 12:45:18 AM

Title: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Clive Williams on October 01, 2012, 12:45:18 AM
ukebert's suggestion wins! it's the South Downs Jig, a lovely quirky English jig.

Here's ukebert's original piano version of the tune, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0OUmJg8uYo - no melodeon versions yet - and here's some ABC:

Code: [Select]
X:195
T:South Downs Jig
R:jig
S:Robert Harbron
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
|: d | dcA G3 | EFG AFE | DEF GAB | cde d2d |
dcA G3 | EFG AFE | DEF GAB | cAF G2 :|
B | Bcd e2c | d2B c2A | Bcd e2c | [M:9/8]d2B c2B A3 |
[M:6/8]DGF E3 | cBA FED | DEF GAB |1 cAF G2 :|2 cAF G3 |]


Owen learned it off Rob Harbron via Ed Rennie, and Rob says it was written by the late Jim Harding of Lewes in Sussex.

A quick play through of it, and it makes a nice little tune to fit on a D/G, and for me anyway changes row quite frequently rather than crosses it if you know what I mean.

It makes a lovely slow jig; perhaps it does other things too? Looking forward to seeing what everyone comes up with!

Cheers,

Clive
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 01, 2012, 01:22:26 AM
Cool! I actually missed the poll for this one, so it's a nice surprise. I do have a D/G version, I might try recording it. IIRC it was Ollie's suggestion though (:)

I emailed Ed Rennie about this tune and he sent me two links to box versions. The first by him (from Banquet of Boxes): http://soundcloud.com/mrs-casey-records/banq-of-boxes-medley and the second by Pip Ives of this parish: http://www.pipives.co.uk/recordings.html

Jim Harding was a member of South Downs Morris, so this could be a tune for a Morris Jig. That would explain the title and perhaps that 9/8 bar.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: folkbluesnbeyond on October 01, 2012, 06:39:38 AM

http://youtu.be/iVmZYTZpxU8

A couple of times through twice, (not at morris speed)

All the best

Bill

PS Despite Howard's 'grumble' (post) it remains a cracking tune. I hope his intervention does not discourage others from playing the tune as they feel it deserves, or the point of TOTM would be lost, (from my perspective). 2nd month I have got it wrong for somebody!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 01, 2012, 12:22:23 PM
I love this tune, and I'm afraid my heart sank when I saw this was to be TOTM.  I first heard it played by anglo player Dave Prebble, who knew Jim Harding, and later learned it from John Percy (who I think may also have known him, but I can't swear to it).  In their hands the tune has a wonderful subtlety, especially the part in the B music where it slows down.  None of the recorded versions linked to, all fine in their own way, capture this, and the ABC (which isn't even dotted) misses the point completely, imo. 

Occasionally I hear the tune in sessions but it has always been from someone who learned it (directly or indirectly) from a source close to the composer.  I fear this tune will become popularised in sessions as an emasculated, smoothed-out version which loses all its character - rather as has happened with Oscar Woods' Jig, another fine tune which is usually ruined in sessions.

I realise this is the inevitable consequence of publishing tunes, especially where a "definitive" recording is not available (although even that doesn't seem to have saved Oscar's Jig), but I don't have to like it.

Grumble over.

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 01, 2012, 01:05:26 PM
Well you know what you can do Howard! ;)

It seems that we have a choice according to you. Either a tune is played wrong or it is not played at all. Personally I'd prefer the former, but if you care about it then please record a version to show us all how it should be done.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 01, 2012, 02:41:29 PM

I seem to be in a particularly curmudgeonly mood today >:(

I'd rather it was played "right", or rather that it gets passed on with the subtle touches which transform it from a merely good tune to a "glorious" one.  I fear that once this gets taken up as a session tune these touches will be ironed out and it will become just another rumpty-tumpty jig.  You only have to listen to the difference between Oscar Woods' playing of his jig and the way it is now treated in most sessions.

Somewhere I have a recording of Dave Prebble playing South Downs, although it seems to be on a hard drive which refuses to speak to my laptop so I'm not optimistic that I'll be able to find it.

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Clive Williams on October 01, 2012, 03:37:34 PM
Definitely with Owen on this - let's hear it in all its forms, and then we can each judge which we like best (and I'm sure it won't be the same answer for everyone). I seem to remember someone famous saying to the effect of 'the only way you can damage folk music is not to play it' - and I think that's about right.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Theo on October 01, 2012, 03:43:50 PM
... if you care about it then please record a version to show us all how it should be done.


Yes please record it the way you like it.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 01, 2012, 04:10:34 PM
I love this tune, and I'm afraid my heart sank when I saw this was to be TOTM.  I first heard it played by anglo player Dave Prebble, who knew Jim Harding, and later learned it from John Percy (who I think may also have known him, but I can't swear to it).  In their hands the tune has a wonderful subtlety, especially the part in the B music where it slows down.  None of the recorded versions linked to, all fine in their own way, capture this, and the ABC (which isn't even dotted) misses the point completely, imo. 

It's in Nick Barber's English Selection (of which I have a copy),  a bit different from the way most people play it.  Nick explained to me that he learned it from Jim Harding, and he thinks it's pretty much as Jim played it.

Perhaps I'll unlearn the "session" version I'm familiar with and play Nick's version, and you can see what you think. Or I could transcribe it to ABC...
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Mcgrooger on October 01, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
Here's mine. I make no claims to 'authenticity'...whatever that means. I've enjoyed playing this tune as much as any TOTM and more than some. (:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg315bnQqF0 
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 01, 2012, 05:26:18 PM
I love this tune, and I'm afraid my heart sank when I saw this was to be TOTM.  I first heard it played by anglo player Dave Prebble, who knew Jim Harding, and later learned it from John Percy (who I think may also have known him, but I can't swear to it).  In their hands the tune has a wonderful subtlety, especially the part in the B music where it slows down.  None of the recorded versions linked to, all fine in their own way, capture this, and the ABC (which isn't even dotted) misses the point completely, imo. 

Occasionally I hear the tune in sessions but it has always been from someone who learned it (directly or indirectly) from a source close to the composer.  I fear this tune will become popularised in sessions as an emasculated, smoothed-out version which loses all its character - rather as has happened with Oscar Woods' Jig, another fine tune which is usually ruined in sessions.

I realise this is the inevitable consequence of publishing tunes, especially where a "definitive" recording is not available (although even that doesn't seem to have saved Oscar's Jig), but I don't have to like it.

Grumble over.

Point of order, The tune now known as Oscar Woods Jig was never called that by Oscar!  I think we can thank Mr Stradling for that. Maybe it sounded better than 'Tiger Smiths Jig.'   ;D

Rant over........ 
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 01, 2012, 06:40:00 PM
Here's an ABC transcription of the version in Nick Barber's book

X: 0
T: South Downs
C: Jim Harding
B: Nick Barber's English Selection
M: 6/8
K: G
d dcA | G3 EFG | A3 DEF | GAB cde | d3 dcA |
G3 EFG | A3 DEF | GAB cAF | G2 ::
B Bcd | e3 d3 | cBA Bcd | e3 d2B |
cdB A3- | A2D DGF | E2c cBA |F3 DEF |GAB cAF |G2 :|

And this is me playing it: http://youtu.be/UrMULw5AVh8

Note there is no 9/8 bar. The bar lines are perhaps half a bar out from where you'd expect, and there's an extra half-bar of held note in the middle of the B music. Also some detail is different from the version I've learned from other players.

Edit: corrected last bar of 1st line

I'd be interested to know if it's any closer to Jim Harding's own playing that the "standard session version", in the opinion of anyone with a claim to know the difference.

Here's the dots as a graphic:
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Pete Dunk on October 01, 2012, 10:49:15 PM
Here's mine. I make no claims to 'authenticity'...whatever that means. I've enjoyed playing this tune as much as any TOTM and more than some. (:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg315bnQqF0

Love it! Very different to Owen's remarkable interpretation, now licking my lips in anticipation of Anahata's offering. I think there are folk here capable of being very creative with this tune despite Howard's misgivings and I too would love to hear this played by someone who learned to play it from the playing of the composer himself.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Pete Dunk on October 01, 2012, 11:01:09 PM
And this is me playing it: http://youtu.be/UrMULw5AVh8

Note there is no 9/8 bar. The bar lines are perhaps half a bar out from where you'd expect, and there's an extra half-bar of held note in the middle of the B music. Also some detail is different from the version I've learned from other players.

I'd be interested to know if it's any closer to Jim Harding's own playing that the "standard session version", in the opinion of anyone with a claim to know the difference.

Hmm, perhaps the 9/8 bar is someone's attempt to rationalise a tune that is very rubato (variable tempo) in places. I love this version too, the tune is so full of possibilities!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ollie on October 01, 2012, 11:05:43 PM
Here's my version - http://soundcloud.com/olliekingbox/south-downs-jig

However!

I've now just looked in the Nick Barber book (didn't realise it was in there) - this is how I originally thought it should be notated, and I much prefer this version... so I'm now off to record another!

And here it is - http://soundcloud.com/olliekingbox/south-downs I think shifting the G to the first note of bar 1, and making the DDCA bit the anacrusis completely changes the feel of the tune, for the better.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 01, 2012, 11:31:55 PM
Thanks to tjsmithdog5 for pointing out a small error in the last bar of the first line of my transcription from Nick's book. I've edited both ABC and graphic to correct this now.

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 02, 2012, 10:33:36 AM
I disagree, I think that the change in emphasis makes it rather stodgy somehow, it doesn't have that wonderful asynchronicity that the other version has.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 02, 2012, 12:11:50 PM
Whichever way you put the bar lines (and that's much more likely than anything else to be pure transcriber's whim, given that JH evidently didn't write anything down) there are other differences in Nick's version, notably the extra three quavers length on a note halfway though the B music which sounds like a pause, and which means you don't need the 9/8 bar.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 02, 2012, 12:14:08 PM
Whichever way you put the bar lines (and that's much more likely than anything else to be pure transcriber's whim, given that JH evidently didn't write anything down) there are other differences in Nick's version, notably the extra three quavers length on a note halfway though the B music which sounds like a pause, and which means you don't need the 9/8 bar.

Aye, it just makes the B section 9 full bars long :P
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 02, 2012, 12:20:35 PM
The Nick Barber transcription is closer to the version I know, although I've heard it played as a more dotted morris tune, with variations in timing which notation cannot quite capture.  It's the slightly "off-balance" nature of the tune played this way which I find particularly appealing.

If, as Anahata indicates, there is already a "session version" in circulation then perhaps I'm too late to voice my misgivings.  The only times I've heard it in sessions has been when it's played by Dave Prebble, John Percy, or me.

To be clear, I've no objection to people putting their own interpretation on tunes, and my own version now probably differs slightly from both Dave's and John's.  All the recorded versions here I've listened to have been fine in their own ways (I particularly like Ukebert's piano version).  However I think that some tunes are more robust than others, and while some can stand rough treatment in sessions, others are more delicate and can lose a lot of their character. 

I'm clearly going to have to put my money where my mouth is and record a version.  I usually play this on concertina so I'll have to learn to play it on melodeon first.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Mcgrooger on October 02, 2012, 01:01:05 PM
I'm clearly going to have to put my money where my mouth is and record a version.  I usually play this on concertina so I'll have to learn to play it on melodeon first.

Aye, you're not wrong there, lad!! :||:
Also, if you don't like hearing tunes mangled in sessions, you could do what I do....avoid sessions! ;)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 02, 2012, 01:04:05 PM
I'm clearly going to have to put my money where my mouth is and record a version.  I usually play this on concertina so I'll have to learn to play it on melodeon first.

I wouldn't mind hearing a concertina version if that's going to take less time.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 02, 2012, 01:24:49 PM
Also, if you don't like hearing tunes mangled in sessions, you could do what I do....avoid sessions! ;)

Oh no, I enjoy sessions.  And I've probably done my share of tune-mangling and passing on of incorrect/misheard/misremembered versions.  As I said before, some tunes can stand it and some can't.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ollie on October 02, 2012, 02:17:59 PM
I've re-written it, this time with more 9/8 bars. I was unsure whether or not to make bars 1&2, 5&6 and 14&15 into bars of 9/8 or (as written) a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 3/8. I went with the latter to keep the irregularity.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Theo on October 02, 2012, 02:24:18 PM
Go for the concertina version Howard, after all we already have a piano version!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 02, 2012, 08:20:18 PM
OK, here it is:

 http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs)

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig: If at first...
Post by: folkbluesnbeyond on October 02, 2012, 08:41:09 PM
 http://youtu.be/Gv_GfSloIVA

Polishing crystal with a grinder

Bill
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig: If at first...
Post by: Pete Dunk on October 02, 2012, 08:57:16 PM
http://youtu.be/Gv_GfSloIVA

Polishing crystal with a grinder

Bill

Lovely Jubbly!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 02, 2012, 09:29:46 PM
OK, here it is:

 http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs)
Thanks - interesting!
OK, it seem Nick B's long note in the middle of the B music isn't right after all. Dotted rhythms noted; also you have in common with Owen/ukebert those notes in the middle of the B as a duplet in the time of three quavers. If that's the rhythmic subtlety you're alluding to, I have a handle on that now - it's rather nice and I'm happy to make that part of the tune. Like Bill, I'm inclined to have another go, but we seem to be moving in opposite directions now...
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Pete Dunk on October 02, 2012, 10:39:12 PM
OK, here it is:

 http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs)

It took Anahata to explain it properly but I'd got the idea of dotting the playing via your earlier comments and mapped it out in my head but the 'slows' are pure morris and you need to know the dance in order to make sense of the tune in places. Lovely playing Howard, thanks for shining a light in darkened corners!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Clive Williams on October 03, 2012, 01:04:00 AM
OK, here it is:

 http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs)

That's lovely Howard - I've been playing along to it for the past couple of hours! One question - what's that odd chord at the end of the slows please? I just can't seem to get it...
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 03, 2012, 02:14:25 AM
The slow down in the B section is very similar to what I am now playing on box Howard (:) Rather chuffed that I'm getting close to the original.

I disagree with you in how susceptible the tune is to being mishandled. I think that it is a tune which can be played in a lot of different ways, each musically very interesting. In fact, I would say that this is a harder tune to ruin than most!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 03, 2012, 08:33:56 AM
I should make clear that I'm not worried about how soloists will deal with it - like any tune it can be played in a number of ways, and any musician will make their own interpretation in their own style.  I don't doubt that my own interpretation now differs from John Percy's whom I learned it from, although I hope I've retained the core of it, and in particular the timing.

We've already heard a lot of very different, and all entirely valid, interpretations.  I look forward to hearing more.  It's how it will get treated in massed sessions that worries me - I fear that all the subtlety will be lost and it will become just another rumpty-tumpty jig.  I agree it's a hard tune to ruin completely, but its special qualities could easily be damaged.  Unlike Anahata, I haven't come across the tune much in sessions, and I wasn't aware that Nick Barber had published it, so I suppose it's already been released into the wild.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 03, 2012, 08:39:23 AM
the 'slows' are pure morris and you need to know the dance in order to make sense of the tune in places.

I must admit that I've not seen it danced to, but as a former dancer myself I have a mental picture.  So far as I am aware it was composed for South Downs Morris so it seems right to treat it as a morris tune rather than a country dance jig.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
And here it is - http://soundcloud.com/olliekingbox/south-downs I think shifting the G to the first note of bar 1, and making the DDCA bit the anacrusis completely changes the feel of the tune, for the better.

Cracking playing , but who is ana crusis?  ;D
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 10:18:54 AM
OK, here it is:

 http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs)

Howard, this is simply GORGEOUS! Brilliant anglo playing, with really inventive chords. I can hear a lot of Kimber in there, but a lot more besides. I could see the dancers as you played it, particularly the bit in the B part where you slowed it down.

Now off to learn it myself.......
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 03, 2012, 10:24:51 AM
Cracking playing , but who is ana crusis?  ;D

No relation to me!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 03, 2012, 10:31:26 AM
We've already heard a lot of very different, and all entirely valid, interpretations.  I look forward to hearing more.  It's how it will get treated in massed sessions that worries me - I fear that all the subtlety will be lost and it will become just another rumpty-tumpty jig.

That hasn't happened around here, but we have a small-ish session with some decent musicians who don't assume, for example, that everything in 6/8 is a rumpty-tumpty jig.

I have a recording of some of our local sessionaires playing this tune - I'll dig it out and... I think it's time I opened a Soundcloud account.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 10:57:23 AM
I have more trouble with the local session players who think 6/8 is a competition to see who can finish first........

yah didly didly didly........   >:(
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 03, 2012, 11:27:58 AM
Howard, I've been trying to work out what it is that is so effective in the 'Slows' bit in your B music.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that it gets its effect from the fact that it's not actually a 'Slow' at all - or perhaps I should say that it is a 'Slow' from the dancer's point of view, but not from the musician's (and maybe that's what Morris slows are all about).  The clever bit is that underlying the 'slow', there's still a beat going on, which resumes when you go back to the 6/8 time - if you keep tapping your feet in your recording, the beat is still there, though the 'one and two' of a 6/8 rhythm are reversed.

Which all made me think there must be a way of annotating this.  So I went to trusty Musescore and came up with this interpretation (apols to all you abc-ers, but it's all I know!)  It seems to work if you play it in Musescore.  But I'd be interested to know from proper musos whether this is right.  It relies on a 9/8 bar, but with crotchets to get the 'asynchronous' effect.

I've also put in a pdf file of the section of the original score.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 04:50:45 PM
Here we go.  The 'slows' are more like playing 3 to a bar in  tune with 4 bars - marked  with a '3' over the notes. I've tried to make them work - see what you think.

I've reflected the obvious morris source by playing 3 B parts, and ending on a A part.

I heard this on Banquest of Boxes, was blown away, but then forgot about it. Thanks to TOTM it's now firmly in my repertoire!

The video is a bit jerky, so avert your eyes....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAhddt58t1I&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Andy Next Tune on October 03, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
Having watched South Downs Morris on that brief Youtube video  - a young team dancing slowly and so athletic and getting plenty of height, you can perhaps understand why the tune struggles within the confines of musical notation. The 'pause' was probably variable length depending upon the dancer and the height of their caper, or whatever.

Be nice to see someone compose a new jig for this.

Andy
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 03, 2012, 07:04:00 PM
Is this horse dead yet?

This is a transcription based on Howard's version. Actually I edited the one at the top of the thread.

X:1
T:South Downs Jig
R:jig
C: Jim Harding
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
|: dcA G3 | EFG A3 | D>EF GAB | cde d2d |
dcA G3 | EFG A3 | D>EF GAB | c>AF G3 :|
[M:3/8] Bcd |[M: 6/8] e2c  d2B | c2A  BGE |e2c d2B |"rall." (2cB A3 |
DGF E3 | cBA F3 | D>EF GAB |1 c>AF G3 :|2 cAF G3 |]

X: 2
T:South Downs Jig
R:jig
C: Jim Harding
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
|: dcA G3 | EFG A3 | D>EF GAB | cde d2d |
dcA G3 | EFG A3 | D>EF GAB | c>AF G3 :|
[M:3/8] Bcd |[M: 6/8] e2c  d2B | c2A  BGE |e2c d2B |\
[M: 7/8]c2B2 A3 |
DGF E3 | cBA F3 | D>EF GAB |1 c>AF G3 :|2 cAF G3 |]

Notes:

Rendered dots below for quick reference.
I shall not elaborate further on the notation details now - I've taken it as far as I want to, if not further  :Ph
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 07:15:38 PM
I  reckon it'd actually a bar in 4/4 for the 'slow' bit , with two single length notes and one double length , timed so that you get 8 beats in that bar as opposed to 6 in all the others. Hence it isn't 9/8.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 03, 2012, 08:00:04 PM
what's that odd chord at the end of the slows please? I just can't seem to get it...

I'm playing a C and E against an A in the melody, which (I think) gives an inversion of Am.  Not perhaps what you'd expect for a tune in G, but very concertina-ish (and as Pikey pointed out, rather Kimber-ish) and I think creates a pleasing tension.

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 08:16:44 PM
...and a lovely Kimberish tension it is too.....

Btw - what 'tina are you playing?
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 03, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
Hmm - still not sure about the strict tempo 4/4 or 7/8 ideas for representing that 'slow' in Howard's version - wouldn't both lose his underlying beat?
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 10:11:16 PM
This represents a perfect example of the difficulty of notating music from a tune (and timing) that was developed by ear!

Musical notation is always an attempt to write down how it should sound, and it is (and never can be) an exact science. That's why good conductors can make a piece of music sound so different from another - the written notes don't change, just how to interpret them.

It's also why IMHO you should always try to learn by ear, and not from the dots (although I agree they can support learning by ear), for precisely the reasons in this thread - you can't always capture on paper how the tune is meant to sound.

Hence why I believe the use of ABC has led to the loss of character of so many beautiful tunes (see comments at the begining of this thread).

My advice to others that want to learn this gorgoeus TOTM (and all other tunes too!) is:

- Listen to the versions posted, several times, to get them into your musical mind
- if you like using written music, look at Anahatas notations to see what the notes are and the general structure of the tune
- Practice until you know where the notes are
- Listen to the posted versions again to see how the rhythm really works

There is no subsitute for listenng to someone playing a tune to see how it should go.

 ;D
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 03, 2012, 10:19:02 PM
Hmm - still not sure about the strict tempo 4/4 or 7/8 ideas for representing that 'slow' in Howard's version - wouldn't both lose his underlying beat?

Yes, but he does stretch the beat a little at that point (I think it's about a quaver's worth, hence the 7/8 bar)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 03, 2012, 10:52:53 PM
Yes, I agree, Pikey - I'm not concerned about how to notate it just as an exercise, rather to try to understand what's going in the rhythm, because I agree with Howard about this little bit in his version being important to the feel of his version of the tune, as are his variations in syncopation.  As I was saying earlier, it seems to me that the cleverness of a 'slow' is that the original beat often carries on silently underneath, and when it's resumed afterwards it's a lovely effect (AFAIK unique to Morris), and I think that's what's happening here.  I agree with you Anahata that there is a very slight slowing-down in his playing, but if you try tapping strict LR,LR through this section, you'll see that it fits pretty closely, but you end up RL,RL, implying that there's a 3/8 or 9/8 bar.

It seems to me this isn't just an academic exercise, it's about the essence of the rhythm of these tunes.  On the earlier debate, sure, it's absolutely fine to adapt and modify a tune to what you like, and it's also nice to understand its origins.

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 03, 2012, 11:03:52 PM
I would love to see the dance notation to work out what's going on in the slow bit. Maybe a slow forrey caper, or a leapfrog?
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 03, 2012, 11:18:37 PM
.Btw - what 'tina are you playing?

It's a Dipper Cotswold G/D.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Clive Williams on October 04, 2012, 12:39:09 AM
Here's my version of this tune; one of the tunes that I'm not sure what I could do to it without doing damage, so here it is, played simple and sweet on the Castagnari Giasco in D/G.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7RK5h-OvqQ

Movie maker trashed my video for me, which given the melodeon face on it wasn't a bad thing, so I salvaged the soundtrack which I record separately anyway, and made a simple photo/soundtrack video. Really, it's much more pleasant to look at than the original.

Cheers,

Clive
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 04, 2012, 01:34:11 AM
I think I need to record a box version...
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 04, 2012, 12:31:58 PM
Listening to everyone's versions, there's certainly lots of interesting variations in beat emphasis here, related to Ollie's earlier point.  Like Ollie, I've also always 'heard' the DDCA as an anacrusis, and  mentally shifted the bar lines.  However, the more I listen to this tune, the more I'm thinking, perhaps the tune was originally conceived by Jim Harding as being in 3/8, without any such emphases?  Certainly, the single 123, 123 beat seems to work for me as I try to play it.  It would be so nice to know how the dance went when he played it, as you say Andy!

As everyone says, this is a really interesting tune.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ziachmusi/Louise on October 05, 2012, 11:19:30 AM
I had a bit more time than usual and have really enjoyed listening to all the uploads so far and trying to play along with those in the right key.

So here an attempt:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h7Kiw8c0-w&list=UUvD6wxTdPKq2dN7O7QAd9-g&index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h7Kiw8c0-w&list=UUvD6wxTdPKq2dN7O7QAd9-g&index=1&feature=plcp)

playing it back and comparing with other uploads I realise just how much of the tune I don't seem to grasp, Oh well back to practising  :(

Louise
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 05, 2012, 01:29:46 PM
Here's my interpretation of this:

http://soundcloud.com/chrisbrimley/south-downs-jig

This took me a long time to work out, and it's still not quite right.  I wanted to try a mix of different bits from other versions - I liked particularly Ukebert's free rhythm, Ollie's insights into the tune's rhythmic structure, Howard's syncopation and 'slows' (although I think I used a different timing), and Anahata's transcriptions.  I've attached a Musescore file (also in pdf) of my interpretation with my chords (letters in brackets are bass notes).  I'm now trying to think of this tune as being in 3/8, so that's how I've written it out.

The main difficulty for me in playing this is the 'slow' in the B music.  I think of the CDB quavers (in the first bar of the 'slow') as being doubled in length, so that each note becomes a crotchet.  This means playing 3 notes evenly against a 2-beat rhythm, which I don't find easy!  The idea was to keep the underlying rhythm going.

(Silly end is Mr McCartney's.  Apt words, I thought, while working out the 'slow' in this tune: 'How do you manage to make ends meet?)

Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ash on October 07, 2012, 08:19:14 PM
Here's my offering. I'm really enjoying playing the liliput it's recorded on. Couldn't get a take without mistakes though so had to admit defeat and go with this, at least it gets across what I was trying to do...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMGFJG41sQA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMGFJG41sQA)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: deltasalmon on October 07, 2012, 10:01:29 PM
http://youtu.be/h6kwRijhHZE (http://youtu.be/h6kwRijhHZE)

My first post for the tune of the month.

South Downs Jig played in G on a B/C Weltmeister 512.

Maybe next month I'll learn to play basses along with the tune.

EDIT: I should have considered posting this into the Beginner's showcase instead... Oh wells...
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 08, 2012, 01:01:16 PM
Mindful of which forum this is, I've now recorded a melodeon version:

http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs-melodeon (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs-melodeon)

Still needs a bit of work really.  I think I'll stick to playing it on the anglo, but it has some interesting possibilities on melodeon.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Eoin Mac on October 08, 2012, 06:14:24 PM
Love the bounce and air you get into the tune Howard.....if you'd just baked a sponge it'd be light as a feather! (:)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: pikey on October 09, 2012, 10:37:04 AM
Mindful of which forum this is, I've now recorded a melodeon version:

http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs-melodeon (http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs-melodeon)

Still needs a bit of work really.  I think I'll stick to playing it on the anglo, but it has some interesting possibilities on melodeon.

Superb Howard.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 11, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
And I've recorded a box version as well! Basically just a transferral of the same arrangement on piano onto box. A little rough in places, but not too bad.

http://soundcloud.com/owen-woods/south-downs-jig-owens-maggot
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Peter Savage on October 11, 2012, 08:07:04 PM
I can't make your link work Owen.  Can you post again?  I am interested to hear your box version.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Peter Savage on October 11, 2012, 08:18:41 PM
I did a search of sound cloud for "Owen Woods" and it same up with this: http://soundcloud.com/owenwoods ...charming lad.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Owen Woods on October 11, 2012, 09:38:47 PM
Oops, sorry about that! Was on private by mistake... never used Soundcloud before.

Try this:

http://soundcloud.com/owen-woods/south-downs-jig-owens-maggot
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Jackhumphreys on October 12, 2012, 08:39:30 AM
Ah... melodeon bounce and articulation  while keeping the  lyricism of the piano version! So glad you posted this, Owen.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 12, 2012, 09:43:57 AM
Nice one Owen
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: labradornl on October 17, 2012, 01:00:57 AM
Here's my attempt at this tune.  It's really interesting to hear all the different versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxvUf1Hq_o
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ellisteph on October 21, 2012, 08:16:36 PM
A first airing for my brand new Loffet Pro C/F, picked up from Bernard Loffet himself at Hebden Bridge's 'Les Panards Dansants' last weekend. Thanks to Jack Humphreys for helping me make my mind up regarding which model to go for. Just getting used to it's nuances - especially the switches. I'm delighted with it.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnQ-ZzglVNA&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: penn on October 23, 2012, 10:41:15 PM
Here's my Souths Downs Jig on the old grey Club IIB

The slows seem to have become stops but it's not really me playing it, the tune very quickly gained a life of its own....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCfQ48kIvzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCfQ48kIvzY)
Steve
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Martyn on October 24, 2012, 12:25:18 AM
Here's my Souths Downs Jig on the old grey Club IIB

The slows seem to have become stops but it's not really me playing it, the tune very quickly gained a life of its own....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCfQ48kIvzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCfQ48kIvzY)
Steve

Really nice Steve, played with great feeling, I love the slows........Nice sounding melodeon BTW´╗┐   ;)

Martyn
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Howard Jones on October 28, 2012, 11:52:15 AM
OK, here's the definitive version.  John Percy, from whom I learned the tune, has sent me this recording of Jim Harding himself playing it at the ECMW at Mendlesham in the 1984.  It's a "field recording" on a Sony Walkman (remember them?)

I think in my own version posted earlier I've perhaps exaggerated the tempo shifts slightly.  It's interesting that in Jim's version they become more pronounced each time through. I remain firm in my view that this tune is more complex than may first appear, especially if it's just been learned from dots, and isn't really suited to mass session playing, and I know John agrees with me.

http://soundcloud.com/howardj/south-downs-played-by-jim
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Martyn on October 28, 2012, 12:08:47 PM
Thanks for that Howard, it's nice to hear the original.

Martyn
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: RogerT on October 29, 2012, 10:47:33 PM
So here are two recordings, the first one on a newly acquired Hohner Corona IIIR, which has 5 couplers and which I find addictive to play.
http://youtu.be/lIZGhPg7NOQ

This recording is on a Dino Baffetti Carnival II
http://youtu.be/Ola2w-ak5jo
I have an annoying habit of increasing speed as I go along.. probably in a hurry to finish or something...

I do very much like this tune.. can someone suggest another tune either to follow it or (perhaps better) to play before it?
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Martyn on October 29, 2012, 11:02:10 PM

I do very much like this tune.. can someone suggest another tune either to follow it or (perhaps better) to play before it?

I've been playing Linnen Hall after it for a while. It goes quite nicely.

Martyn
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: RogerT on October 29, 2012, 11:03:48 PM

I do very much like this tune.. can someone suggest another tune either to follow it or (perhaps better) to play before it?

I've been playing Linnen Hall after it for a while. It goes quite nicely.

Martyn

Thanks; I'll give it a try...
Roger
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Martyn on October 30, 2012, 12:09:56 AM

I do very much like this tune.. can someone suggest another tune either to follow it or (perhaps better) to play before it?

I've been playing Linnen Hall after it for a while. It goes quite nicely.

Martyn

Thanks; I'll give it a try...
Roger

I've just found a recording of the two tunes that was recorded earlier this year with Danny Gallagher.

http://soundcloud.com/martyn1954/south-downs-jig-linnen-hall

Martyn
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: RogerT on October 30, 2012, 07:07:48 AM
Thanks Martyn.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Lyn on October 30, 2012, 11:47:35 AM
Can I post? I'm not submitting a recording, but I'd like to say: I'd never heard this tune before, and my first  introduction was Owen's piano version and I was smitten. Hence I really don't like the bouncy, rumpety-tumpety versions (does that get me drummed out?) and Anahata's melodeon version is my top favourite..if I ever get to learn it that's the way I would like to play it.

Thank you for your indulgence, gentlemen, I'll get off the thread! ;)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Chris Brimley on October 30, 2012, 12:32:54 PM
Lyn, surely no reticence needed? Variety is the spice of life, and this tune offers plenty of it!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on October 30, 2012, 06:35:44 PM
Thank you Lyn, though I was sorely tempted to do another version sounding more like a morris tune!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Rees on October 30, 2012, 06:38:02 PM
John Percy is a regular at our monthly tune session in Welshpool (The Grapes Inn, last Thursday in the month).

Last week I asked him to play the South Downs Jig - just gorgeous  (:) (:) (:)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Lyn on October 30, 2012, 09:38:51 PM
Thank you Lyn, though I was sorely tempted to do another version sounding more like a morris tune!


Resist! Resist! >:E
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: joreema on October 31, 2012, 04:23:23 PM
I'm late but not too late. Here is my version. I know it's too fast but although this tune must be played slowly I am running the whole day. So, my version is a sort of compromise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbQQIvkMBg0&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: tjsmithdog5 on October 31, 2012, 08:28:34 PM
Not a minute too soon.  I should really try this again after it has had about a year to sink in--it's a very subtle tune.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns)
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Peter Savage on October 31, 2012, 09:51:40 PM
Very nice Jeff.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ellisteph on October 31, 2012, 10:49:45 PM
Not a minute too soon.  I should really try this again after it has had about a year to sink in--it's a very subtle tune.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns)
Very sensitively done Jeff. Great timing.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Clive Williams on October 31, 2012, 11:34:37 PM
Great months videos - very interesting and educational stuff! Late entries as ever as always welcomed - please add them here!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Martyn on November 01, 2012, 12:59:10 AM
Not a minute too soon.  I should really try this again after it has had about a year to sink in--it's a very subtle tune.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_Bb2DnYns)

Lovely playing Jeff. I enjoyed that.

Martyn
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: tjsmithdog5 on November 01, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
ScannAr, Ellisteph and Martyn: Thanks, gentlemen. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: David J on November 07, 2012, 06:18:34 PM
Better late than never: finally got around to posting a video ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaqybSoTrw4
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Peter Savage on November 09, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
Another late offering due to work related travel in October.  Really enjoyed learning this one.

http://youtu.be/yXcLa3FNtTc
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: robotmay on August 06, 2014, 01:12:35 PM
I should really be learning this month's TOTM, but somehow I ended up relearning this tune a couple of days ago and haven't stopped playing it since. Managed to get a recording I'm reasonably happy with, although it starts off a bit slow. There's so much you can do with different chords and pauses in this tune so I'll keep practicing it ;D

https://soundcloud.com/robotmay/south-downs-jig

Only two years late with this entry!
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: arty on July 10, 2016, 10:35:48 PM
Very, very late to the party, but here we go. I started taking lessons earlier this year; this is the first tune I asked to be taught. I think my playing has really come on since I started the lessons but plenty of room for improvement...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKBDfWzwmag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKBDfWzwmag)

That is lovely and really well played! I would say you are being very well taught - steady tempo, strong rhythm and good phrasing. What's not to like 😊
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Anahata on July 10, 2016, 11:55:58 PM
Great stuff. Short and sweet, and everything Arty said.
Title: Re: Tune of the Month for October 2012 - South Downs Jig
Post by: Ceilidhchris on January 22, 2017, 07:22:06 AM
I know I am over 4 years late in submitting this, but it is such a lovely tune I really wanted to do a version.  I used to live in Sussex (with a view of the South Downs!) so in November I contacted an old friend to ask him if he knew anything about this tune.  He put me in contact with someone who was one of the teachers of South Down Morris, and although he promised to send me some more information about the tune and dance, it hasn't happened yet.  I gently reminded him last week that I was still interested, so if I do hear any more I will post it on here.

It was great to read the thread and listen to the different ways of playing from lots of different people, and here is where I am with it at the moment.

Chris

https://youtu.be/WZ-MO7PUJ8M
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