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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Nick Collis Bird on January 04, 2013, 08:08:51 AM

Title: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 04, 2013, 08:08:51 AM
Does anyone know anything about the Chanson Mini Melodeon ?
  There is one on eBay for over £100. It looks very similar to those you can buy for about £12.
Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on January 04, 2013, 08:11:41 AM
Does anyone know anything about the Chanson Mini Melodeon ?
  There is one on eBay for over £100. It looks very similar to those you can buy for about £12.
Have I missed something?

The ones with Buy It Now at £119 are taking the pi55, there is another one at £4.99.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 04, 2013, 08:14:23 AM
Just what I thought Lester, thanks for that.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 04, 2013, 08:31:11 AM
best place for these fun things is Home-Bargains at £9.99 ......... I think £119 was a typo, they also have the same one in a different colour for £19.99 (if its the seller I`m thinking of)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on January 04, 2013, 08:37:25 AM
The one listed at £119.99 has been there for several months and there is more than one listed so if it's a typo then it's about time the seller spotted it  :-[

I've got one of these chanson ones and it makes a lovely paperweight. 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 04, 2013, 08:56:48 AM
The one listed at £119.99 has been there for several months and there is more than one listed so if it's a typo then it's about time the seller spotted it  :-[

I've got one of these chanson ones and it makes a lovely paperweight.

Hope you didn't pay THAT much for it Peggy!!!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on January 04, 2013, 09:01:45 AM
Hope you didn't pay THAT much for it Peggy!!!

Nooooooooooooo! I paid about £11 for mine.  Saw the add for the one at £119, chuckled to myself and skipped promptly to one of the cheaper listings  ;).  Still a waste of money though as half the notes don't sound, even with one bank of reeds taped off. I've also got one of the 'Hohner kids' branded ones which is better.  I might just have been unlucky with my Chanson mini melodeon shaped paperweight though.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Anahata on January 04, 2013, 10:49:58 AM
I might just have been unlucky with my Chanson mini melodeon shaped paperweight though.

You were. I have a toy melodeon branded "Schilling" and it cost me £20, but at least the notes all work.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 04, 2013, 11:12:04 AM
The one I got for a tenner from home bargains was OK (out of the box was in tune and the mechs/pallets worked) , the bellows are the issue, construction of them is OK , it`s not just one piece of bent cardboard like old 70s Bontempi PAs -  but the gussets and corners are porous cloth so even after a good fettling the thing still leaks worse than a worn out hohner 4 stop on a bad day ....

I gave mine away after it went gradually wildly out of tune, the reeds are on removable blocks and are on separate plates & waxed in but for some bizarre reason use brass tongues - Chinese steel doesn`t stay in tune long, you can imagine how long chinese brass lasts :( I got fed up with repeatedly glueing the bellows to the frames too.

Older versions were actually made of WOOD and covered in celluloid but still had the same awful bellows and brass reeds
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 04, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
I've been down this road before; when I first joined Melnet and thought I was Mr Original and posted about my little 7 button Chinese toy.I got Microbot to fit Hohner reeds, then found that it had all been done before {Hector Awol et al} However,I did manage to make the gussets airtight with a couple of coats of builders PVA glue, and they are STILL airtight, 6 months later. I suppose the all up cost has been about £60, it is very loud and still in tune {why would'nt it be with Hohner reeds?} and I love it dearly......it gets played daily alongside my grown up 1040's.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Stig Bubblecard on January 04, 2013, 02:26:53 PM
best place for these fun things is Home-Bargains at £9.99 ......... I think £119 was a typo, they also have the same one in a different colour for £19.99 (if its the seller I`m thinking of)

Home bargains have not had these either online or in-store for months.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Mike Hirst on January 04, 2013, 05:08:50 PM
I've been down this road before; when I first joined Melnet and thought I was Mr Original and posted about my little 7 button Chinese toy.I got Microbot to fit Hohner reeds, then found that it had all been done before {Hector Awol et al} However,I did manage to make the gussets airtight with a couple of coats of builders PVA glue, and they are STILL airtight, 6 months later. I suppose the all up cost has been about £60, it is very loud and still in tune {why would'nt it be with Hohner reeds?} and I love it dearly......it gets played daily alongside my grown up 1040's.

Indeed.  My daughter gets great joy from playing her blue butterfly 7 button one row. The box required a slight tweak on one or two reeds, but remains good after 6+ months hard grind.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 04, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
These get discussed pretty regularly. I used to think there was just one firm banging them out by the gazillion, but there does seem to be some variation.
The gussets on mine leak like sieves, the reeds nearly all work, and it's nearly playable with one bank of reeds taped off, at least until the thumb strap cuts off circulation in my thumb. One bass reed refuses to sound but it doesn't make much difference.
One day I'll take the reeds off and have a good look. One day.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 04, 2013, 07:42:34 PM

The thing is to take them just a tiny bit more seriously [I may live to regret  saying that]. Fit a shoulder strap, fit a thumb strap that fits, spend a happy hour in a dimly lit shed PVAing the gussets.You've spent next to nothing, avoided Strictly Come Dancing and inhaled parafin fumes from the shed heater.Whats not to like?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 04, 2013, 07:54:20 PM
Adendum to above...'' and a MUCH bigger wrist strap...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 04, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
LOL somebody here made a big improvement by glueing thin leather over the gussets, something I plan to try.

I intend to make mine playable, so that when I'm on domestic taxi duty I will have something to play while waiting in the car!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 04, 2013, 08:42:33 PM
    I started on a toy melodeon my Nan and Grandad bought me when I was a wee scamp for about £10. I loved it, and still have it, but I lost the string shoulder strap my Grandad attached to it, but the small picture hooks he screwed into the body are still there.   
    Last year I put up some horrible sounding videos (partly due to my microphone and partly due to the fact this thing is circa 13/14 years old and leaks like no-ones business) to prove to a mate these can be played.
    They are genuine instruments in their own right, and to be fair a good starting place. £119 is dear, I'm partly thinking the seller may play on a buyers naivety? Thinking higher price must equal the fact that the things worth it?
    They don't last really. I mean my one is a celluloid wood one, the reeds have gone way out of tune and the bellows may as well have holes as big as £1 coins. But really, I mean you could swap in reeds like HectorAWOL did on youtube from another melodeon, and in essence you have a 'practice' melodeon that you could pop in your luggage at an airport for instance to save space etc...
    I'm thinking about fettling and restoring mine myself, as a practice box, another puropse they fulfill better than say gutting and buggering a Pokerwork.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Qnh679u08&list=PL672EF1A51A9089FD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Qnh679u08&list=PL672EF1A51A9089FD)
    P.S. I tried one at the EATMT Traditional Music Day 2012 and to be fair, new ones don't seem too bad. They're no Giordy or Organetto but with tweaks, are bonified mini-melodeons.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 04, 2013, 08:46:28 PM
I nicknamed it the "Crapalotti Minger" (after Castagnari Mignon) but in all fairness, they`re amazing value for a tenner, I`m amazed they can make the things , ship`em from China and retail them yet still the maker & Home bargains or whoever actually manage to turn a profit !

I stil can`t get over the fact that a £10 box has 1:- individual reedplates, 2:- removable reed blocks 3:- is TWO voice and 4:- has something the Mignon is missing - an Air button (sad bit is that the Mig NEEDS one, the toy doesn`t)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 04, 2013, 08:50:15 PM
    The £119 one- "Crapalotti Gaudy"  Just because of the showy price!  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 04, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
    The £119 one- "Crapalotti Gaudy"  Just because of the showy price!  >:E

Crapalotti Geordie more like - it`d take a Geordie to have the bare face cheek to charge so much  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Martyn on January 04, 2013, 11:06:21 PM
Here are some good examples of what can be done with one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=360c4QQPL_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9aFTBotZYI

Martyn
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 06:27:00 AM
That's interesting to watch - his melodeon appears to be holding air.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 05, 2013, 07:59:21 AM
Hector is famous for scrapping an Erica to re-reed the toy (he fitted the reeds on video), has loadsa videos playing it. he`s registered on Melnet if I remember rightly and his wife plays toy instruments too...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on January 05, 2013, 09:58:26 AM
his melodeon appears to be holding air.

Mine would give the new dyson fan a run for its money! Anyone playing it is more punkah-wallah than musician.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on January 05, 2013, 10:41:26 AM
his melodeon appears to be holding air.

Mine would give the new dyson fan a run for its money!

Tee hee  (:) Mine's a bit like that. I keep it on my desk at work as a paperweight but have considered using it as an air duster to clean my keyboard....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 05, 2013, 11:53:58 AM
One of the overlooked joys of these little mites is that they are the perfect learning platform for understanding the innards of a melodeon. I now know how pallets work, why they leak and how to fix them,how to make bellows almost airtight and a host of other problem solving events.Well, its been a long wet winter in West Devon and I gave my Meccano to my grandaughter.....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on January 05, 2013, 12:27:28 PM
One of the overlooked joys of these little mites is that they are the perfect learning platform for understanding the innards of a melodeon.

Indeed, I couldn't agree more.  I took my first one apart totally to save the poor pokerwork getting dismantled (this proved to be only a temporary respite for dear Peggy). 

Currently bits of the toy one wired up to switches and an Arduino board as part of a project to make an electronic mini melodeon.  I'd forgotten I started that as I abandoned it in order to finish a couple of stained glass projects in time for Christmas but this thread has reminded me that it is around here somewhere, must dig it out.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 02:03:22 PM
   They're good little 'project' models. Im stripping the celluloid off of mine, sanding and varnishing it. Installing new reeds,possibly 2 stops, for single reed voices (though more for practice of making stops, I've done it before but need to find my dremel skills again  ;D) maybe build new bellows too.
    A mino Dino effectively is what I'm going for
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 02:10:57 PM
   They're good little 'project' models. Im stripping the celluloid off of mine, sanding and varnishing it. Installing new reeds,possibly 2 stops, for single reed voices (though more for practice of making stops, I've done it before but need to find my dremel skills again  ;D) maybe build new bellows too.
    A mino Dino effectively is what I'm going for

I'm with you on this one Ted, I'm also thinking of moving the air button onto the base plate.
How difficult do you think that would be ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 02:39:26 PM
Looks like we have the basis of a consortium here!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 02:44:07 PM
Looks like we have the basis of a consortium here!

Count me in Malcolm!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 05, 2013, 02:47:34 PM
Ted I`d do the bellows first, they`re by far the weakest link - that way if it doesn`t work you`ll not have wasted hours on the rest ...

I`d grab a used wood/celly one if there was a definate solution to the bellows (PVA worked for Brian but not for others who`ve tried) . they need replacing not only do they leak but they`re stiffer than a brand new Roland FR7 and don`t get looser. I can`t think of anything which is even close in size, I`ve not seen any Saxony PAs that size , even knackered Hohner Mignon 1s are creeping up in price (and probably too big) ..
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 02:56:55 PM

My plans:

Retune to G

Seal the bellows - thinking about replacement, maybe. Just discovered that much of the leakage from the gussets is actually from the corners (Lachenal style  ;D ). Where the card is cut into the curve, it splays out.

Add a Hohner style air button.

Rejig the basses to put (probably) a unisonoric C on the top button.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 03:03:01 PM
Ted I`d do the bellows first, they`re by far the weakest link - that way if it doesn`t work you`ll not have wasted hours on the rest ...

I`d grab a used wood/celly one if there was a definate solution to the bellows (PVA worked for Brian but not for others who`ve tried) . they need replacing not only do they leak but they`re stiffer than a brand new Roland FR7 and don`t get looser. I can`t think of anything which is even close in size, I`ve not seen any Saxony PAs that size , even knackered Hohner Mignon 1s are creeping up in price (and probably too big) ..

You're right Adam. The material used for the gussets is jaconette, a linen with a china clay surface and therefore porous. Making new gussets is a time consuming and fiddly job but certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. Quite an exciting project though and it's only since starting this thread that I thought, why not?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 03:17:50 PM
Somebody - can't be *rsed to search - overtaped the gussets using something like 0.2mm leather (prob posted under "mini melodeon". That is what I propose to try. It might not be elegant, but hey...

Adhesive is an interesting thought, since I don't really know what I'm sticking to, but I have some Bostik leather glue that claims to stick leatherette as well, so that is plan A. Works lovely on fingers.

I will lap the leather over the corners to seal those, as well.

And do something about the straps.

If that all works, I will maybe steal Ted's idea and strip the celluloid. If it all goes pear shaped, for £15 or so I can get a Mk II!


You're right Adam. The material used for the gussets is jaconette, a linen with a china clay surface and therefore porous.

Blimey - amazing what you learn!. If we'd started talking about this last week I'd still be round Nick's.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 05, 2013, 03:19:22 PM
Yeah Nick, I`d Start with a used wood one, all the new ones I`ve seen have been plastic - Though are the new Pearloid ones wood like the old ones or just pearloid plastic ?.

re-gusseting the bellows looks like a job for you with your bookbinding skils but it`s way beyond me, putting metal bellows corners on would be a good idea too, they`re currently made of the same stuff as the gussets .. reeds, pallets and stuff are the easy bit...

I enjoyed the one I had and if it`d got as far as Hohner-reeding, I`d have made it at least 2nd button start

EDIT - here`s a HOHNER badged one , I`ve seen them before, always seem to be semi-transparent plastic but still the same box

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-MINI-MELODEON-ACCORDION-for-ALL-AGES-BEGINNERS-/400381519050?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item5d389924ca
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 05, 2013, 03:40:12 PM
Well, thank heavens for this topic, I was beginning to think I was that wierd old guy that plays with toy sqeezeboxes.There are more of us than I thought...I had a head start by getting three pre used from Oxfam so had lots of material to play with.I have gone down the route of stripping off the plastic; the wood beneath is pretty awful, a mixture of ply, particularly on the rounded corners. Microbot made my 'best' one 4th button start when he put the Hohner reeds in and that works well.I do'nt quite know what Steam Punk means, but grandaughter tells me that is what the best box is, something to do with all the totally unnescessary brass strap hangers etc....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 03:44:52 PM
Yeah Nick, I`d Start with a used wood one, all the new ones I`ve seen have been plastic - Though are the new Pearloid ones wood like the old ones or just pearloid plastic ?.

re-gusseting the bellows looks like a job for you with your bookbinding skils but it`s way beyond me, putting metal bellows corners on would be a good idea too, they`re currently made of the same stuff as the gussets .. reeds, pallets and stuff are the easy bit...

I enjoyed the one I had and if it`d got as far as Hohner-reeding, I`d have made it at least 2nd button start

Replacing gussets is not as difficult as it seems, especially if you take the original apart and use them as patterns. Just cut and pare your leather very thinly and put it back in the same place. Don't take the whole bellows apart just work around gradually .
Each to his own skills, I'm fine with bellows straps etc but when it comes to reeds, blocks  fettling etc then I have to call upon people like you.
Now here's a thought with our new consortium. I do the bellows and you do the reeds.
OK I'll get me coat.


EDIT - here`s a HOHNER badged one , I`ve seen them before, always seem to be semi-transparent plastic but still the same box

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-MINI-MELODEON-ACCORDION-for-ALL-AGES-BEGINNERS-/400381519050?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item5d389924ca
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 03:57:55 PM
    I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to bellows, though I have been reading up on them. Is it essentially poor tape that stifens the cardboard 'skeleton'? If retaped and leathered on corners (both of which it needs) using cgm's stuff would it be a less creaky/leaky/squeaky set of bellows d'ya think?
    Also I think we are guilty of major thread drift  :P
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 05, 2013, 04:02:39 PM
Replacing gussets is not as difficult as it seems, especially if you take the original apart and use them as patterns. Just cut and pare your leather very thinly and put it back in the same place. Don't take the whole bellows apart just work around gradually .


Thanks but I can see how it`d turn out for me, glue everywhere (including my hair if I had any) bits of leather stuck to the desk, wall, other melodeons, missus, next doors cat etc and a messy pile of cardboard poking out of the bin follwed by a post in Buy and sell asking if anyone as a scrap toy melodeon I can scrounge the bellows off ;-) ....... Yep, grab your coat nick before it gets covered in glue and leather gussets ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 04:17:56 PM
    Also I think we are guilty of major thread drift  :P

Au contraire. Bang on topic IMO.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 04:30:30 PM
    This topic really has really got me thinking. Even installing internal mics etc, if only for practice... >:E >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 05, 2013, 04:33:28 PM
It really does come down to procuring decent bellows, does'nt it? I would'nt know where to start searching. I bet someone on Melnet has the answer though. I've seen bellows advertised at arround £200:00, but that would just be silly. Would £ 50 be reasonable I wonder?All the quite expensive tiny boxes sound more like bat callers to me, whereas our little seven button toys can be made to sound quite wonderful with very little outlay.And I may have overplayed how air tight I made the belows.. Idid feel a little puff of air on my lip while playing this morning; perhaps I should have said ''airtight enough''...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 04:42:49 PM
    The bellows, aye, they're the most important thing. See I don't know whether wrecking some if only to lay them out as templates for DIY'ing some is a good idea or not? Or can this be forwarded to a specialist? Too many questions....  :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
    I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to bellows, though I have been reading up on them. Is it essentially poor tape that stifens the cardboard 'skeleton'? If retaped and leathered on corners (both of which it needs) using cgm's stuff would it be a less creaky/leaky/squeaky set of bellows d'ya think?
    Also I think we are guilty of major thread drift  :P

Maybe not so much of a thread drift Ted as we are still talking about turning those toys into "real boxes"
The first set of bellows I made did not use creased cardboard but used strips of board hinged with leather, making the two long sides first and then the top and the bottom. Next was fitting the gussets to hold the thing together . THEN I discovered  my big mistake. I wanted to make the bellows indestructible , the boards I used were too heavy  and I put strips of steel rod in each crease. The box was playable but only if you were built like Tarzan. We mostly used it as a seat or a picnic bench. anyway I digress (as usual)
Back to your point. Charlie's , CGM  stuff can only improve what you have, the skill is in getting the leather thin enough ,it's amazingly  durable you could pare it almost to the point of seeing through it.
Obviously the better quality of tape will make things easier. I'm not sure whether a creased skeleton, as opposed to single boards would make a difference. I suppose it must do.
   If you need any more info Ted you can always PM me, or even talk to Malcolm Bebb, He's on the case ( not bellows, case geddit?)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 04:57:31 PM
The gussets were put on to the card; then the coloured papers (red/white on mine) were glued on; then the fabric bellows corners; finally the (on mine) red then blue bellows tape.

To replace the gussets you would need to reverse this: remove the bellows tape, corners, papers and finally the gussets.
In practice you'd maybe cut the papers, lose the corners (they leak anyway) and remove the gussets, although I have no idea what adhesive was used or how you'd release it.
Nick will advise on the leather for the gussets, although "Concertina Spares" or Charlie can sell you something suitable in small quantities.
You could perhaps buy metal corners of the right radius, maybe more cost than warranted, or bind them concertina style with ~1mm leather.

Posts crossed - sorry Nick, I AM on the bellows. And very close to literally so.

You'd need a simple jig to hold the bellows extended and to allow access to all corners. Doable, and easier than new bellows. Still a few dark winter nights to go. Probably therapeutic, too.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 05, 2013, 05:02:16 PM
Malcolm I know you are on the bellows. Yep you're on the case. Geddit?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
No, No, Nick, the case is the LAST job. And if you really must know, I'm on the Speckled Hen.  :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Theo on January 05, 2013, 06:04:20 PM
Great little boxes these, I won one in a raffle at EATMT first time I went to melodeons and more.   They only need to be improved by replacing the leaky bellows, fitting some new action where the levers don't bend, oh and the reeds could do with replacing too, and then the child sized straps need an upgrade ...   but it is amazing how much fun they are. ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 05, 2013, 06:26:54 PM
LOL nobody said upgrading them was a sensible idea!  ;D  Just another part of the fun.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 07:20:30 PM
    Im completely taken in by the idea, already started!
    1st obstacle: stubborn screw. Soloution: dremelled out! I think I nearly set fire to the fingerboard with the heat however, still where would we be without a bit of drama?  8)
    Hopefully no more difficulties!  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 05, 2013, 08:08:55 PM
Wow, lotsa wood ! the ends of the modern ones are entirely plastic bar the reeds and action metalwork .. I`ll try and get a wooden one if I can find one .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 05, 2013, 08:15:09 PM
    The wood is pretty poor though, but still, I'm hoping a sand and a varnish will bring it up nicely >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 06, 2013, 03:19:18 PM
    The wood is pretty poor though, but still, I'm hoping a sand and a varnish will bring it up nicely >:E
[/quote

I notice that you have a grey one there. Not a Soprani by any chance?
  Anyway, more to the point. How good was the woodwork and was it worth stripping of the celluloid?  The one I dug out of the shed is red. I'm just wondering if it's worth stripping. Keep me posted, our consortium is getting bigger.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 06, 2013, 04:14:29 PM
    Nope, not a soprano, its just a bog standard toy one, it does look grey in the light but its purple.
    I've had to stop for a few days now as I am flying to NIreland tommorow, then return the next day with a uni friend for a week (and I doubt he'd be interested in toy melodeon modifications. :P)
    I'll start again following the Straw Bear festival this coming weekend!
    And by the way guys, this site has ruined my revision timetable and Romeo and Juliet was read sporadically over a few days but it is one hell of a site!  >:E >:E >:E >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 06, 2013, 04:19:24 PM
    Oh and I'd say the wood is good enough. Not too sure what type it is (I know it isn't MDF  8)) and the build quality is substantial enough.
    The picture is actually the extent to which I have got to at the moment. I've stripped a little celluloid off and it seems to me like it will be an easy job (please god  ::))
    I'm looking forward to resuming soon. To keep myself busy after that I ordered this: http://www.carolenoakes.co.uk/market/bargains/BARG81.htm (http://www.carolenoakes.co.uk/market/bargains/BARG81.htm) so I can't wait until I have plenty of free time  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 06, 2013, 04:51:41 PM
Nick, I know Ted should be answering your query, but having stripped one of its plastic here's my take on it, bearing in mind that I now have four to play with so a cockup is not the end of the world...The plastic comes off really easily, the wood is ok, but consists of various shades of ply which converge on the rounded out corners leaving a sort of end grain striation that is hard to disguise without filler.This means that the staining is a little uneven.A paint finish would be OK but pointless really,unless you're going for an unusual colour...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 06, 2013, 05:08:57 PM
    If you've done it before please tell us more  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 06, 2013, 05:47:15 PM
Well, it started with a present that did'nt play very well, and as Microbot was bandoneonising my G box I sent the little mite off to him to fit Hohner reeds..then it all went a bit mad really,finding two more in Oxfam[£8 for two], fitting loads of unescessary brass strap hangers,stripping one down to wood, replacing as as many bits of plastic that would unscrew with cigar box wood...and of course making the bellows almost airtight with many coats of PVA in the gussets, joining two sets of bellows together [the luxury of having loads of spares] I feel a bit daft now I've written it down.And bugger me if someone has'nt given me ANOTHER one.... ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 13, 2013, 11:41:20 PM
Something upon which to repent at leisure.

http://melodeons-and-less.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://melodeons-and-less.blogspot.co.uk/)

Brian, if you're looking to rehome any.... ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 14, 2013, 12:23:50 AM
    I am finally going to be able to get back on my toy melodeon project now as exams have been sat and friend has departed blighty and gone back to NI. Am sourcing suitable varnish/treatments for wood, and then onto some dremelling. Should be an interesting few weeks  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 14, 2013, 12:27:34 AM
P.S. good luck Malcolm, that wee checklist should make for a great little box  :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 14, 2013, 11:14:49 AM
Welcome back from Norn Iron Ted.My 7 button baby sanded up fine, although the rounded out corners where the plies meet sucked about a pint of varnish...I might try to get some thin brass to make corner pieces .....think steam punk... 8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 02:29:00 PM
Hi guys, I will post pictures up of my progress tonight. Have bought some pure beeswax today so can push ahead with replacing reeds etc. I know it isn't reedwax but it'll do. I have varnished anddyed my box and it looks good. I wanted to go for a 'antiquey' look. But went for a choclate brown dye, and with brass screws the box looks the part. Am going to embark upon making my own bellows come the first of the month, as pretty much everything else is done. It doesn't look amazing as I used it more as a practise box, but it looks ok for a first attempt :D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Anahata on January 18, 2013, 03:21:09 PM
Have bought some pure beeswax today so can push ahead with replacing reeds etc. I know it isn't reedwax but it'll do.

Why no reed wax?
Since you posted your request for information about wax in another thread I have ordered a set of wax sticks* from Charlie Marshall and they arrived two days ago! He's very quick - everything usually arrives the next day and you can order by email/Paypal.

Beeswax may work, but don't be surprised if the reeds fall out prematurely...

*I chose the sticks over the solid cake of wax because I wanted to try using it with a soldering iron with thin wire attached to the end: with this method you feed the wax into the joint and only melt it as you use it. I don't intend to use a lot of it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 18, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
Have bought some pure beeswax today so can push ahead with replacing reeds etc. I know it isn't reedwax but it'll do.
Hmmm. I'm not sure it will 'do'. Beeswax is too soft to be securely used as reed wax. You need 50% beeswax, 50% resin and 10% olive oil (110% according to Rees, so it has to be good!).

But the proper stuff is easily and cheaply available from Charlie Marshall (http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Reed_Wax_Nails.html), either in stick or block form. Why settle for something that doesn't do the job properly?


Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 03:25:31 PM
Sorry I should have expanded. I bought it to hold the reeds in place for the moment, I have a new card on order, so will get the proper stuff as recommended in other thread for CGM. I didn't know it was delivered within 2 days though, I will order some with my new card, as a cheque will take ages and I don't have that long to go before I'm back at uni :( thanks guys
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Have bought some pure beeswax today so can push ahead with replacing reeds etc. I know it isn't reedwax but it'll do.
Hmmm. I'm not sure it will 'do'. Beeswax is too soft to be securely used as reed wax. You need 50% beeswax, 50% resin and 10% olive oil (110% according to Rees, so it has to be good!).

But the proper stuff is easily and cheaply available from Charlie Marshall (http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Reed_Wax_Nails.html), either in stick or block form. Why settle for something that doesn't

do the job properly?


I see Ted's point. But if you DID use Beeswax then if we had even an English summer the warmth would turn your Melodeon into a rattle box with a nice set of reeds bouncing around in the bottom of the bellows.
Beeswax is a great polish though and would make a lovely finish on a Chanson, but that's another thread.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 03:58:28 PM
    I could feel the block of beeswax was softer than the old reedwax I had removed from other melodeons so I figured I would be buggered if I were to properly use it permanently. At the moment though, tis just a temporary 'fix' literally to get the proper melodeon reeds into the toy one until I can get the real stuff. Interestingly though, the wax I melted off of the toy melodeons reeds was a light beige as opposed to a dark amber off of my Erica, etc. Maybe they used a beeswax composite, or perhaps a diluted version of the proper stuff. Still anyways, CGM will be getting my order in the next few days, can't wait!!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 04:01:06 PM
I've decided to keep the original celluloid on my toy Melodeon and move the air button to a more conventional place. Then have the reeds replaced with something rather super. Then sorting the bellows out.
   The object being, when out in public/ folky environments, the comment would be. " oh look! There's a Pratt with a toy Melodeon ".    And, then blow their socks off!  Can't wait, watch out J.K.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Anahata on January 18, 2013, 04:10:37 PM
Interestingly though, the wax I melted off of the toy melodeons reeds was a light beige as opposed to a dark amber off of my Erica, etc. Maybe they used a beeswax composite, or perhaps a diluted version of the proper stuff.

There are different wax compositions favoured by different makers, resulting in different colours.
Nils Nielsen used a wax of his own design and he's very secretive about what's in it, but it's very recognisable because it's green!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 04:12:23 PM
Interestingly though, the wax I melted off of the toy melodeons reeds was a light beige as opposed to a dark amber off of my Erica, etc. Maybe they used a beeswax composite, or perhaps a diluted version of the proper stuff.

There are different wax compositions favoured by different makers, resulting in different colours.
Nils Nielsen used a wax of his own design and he's very secretive about what's in it, but it's very recognisable because it's green!

Nasal wax?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 04:20:20 PM
Anahata that's interesting, I had no idea there were differebt compositions, though now I think about it it makes sense really. I was half expecting glue on the toy reeds and was quite relieved the beige was was reedwax of their own devising.
Nick, did you move your action to a cajun-esque position on the back of the box or a hohner-esque flicky up and downy action on the side of the box? I spose the box is small enough for either, though I've never thought about moving buttons about. Also did you keep the original action? As chord, bass and air were all mounted together was it a rigmarole to do?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Theo on January 18, 2013, 04:26:02 PM
Natural beeswax, the main ingredient of reed wax, varies enormously in colour depending on the source, from almost white, through cream, yellow and brown. So the colour of any blended wax tells you nothing.  And beswax has a fairly high melting point so there is no risk of it melting in the summer, the main risk is it is too brittle, the added rosin in reed wax makes it tougher, and the added oil makes it softer.  Still best to use the proper stuff, but put beeswax will probably be ok for a while.
(Ps I used to keep bees and I'm still using stored wax from my bees to make reed wax)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 04:29:18 PM
Great stuff Theo, I'm really interested by all this talk of beeswax. I take it you have your own beeswax brew?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 04:32:24 PM
Although this thread is entitled Chanson ( eBay buy it now £ 119.00) they are on the market for about 12 quid. Mine is a Goodlin midget melodeon distributed by Tobar.
 NOW, all these machines I am pretty sure are made in the same factory in China. So can any one come up with a name that would suit our specially adapted machines?
I'll start with a few but there must be better ones. EG.....  Barstardgnalli, Crappolodeon, and
Tinypathetti.
Here we go again!
PS Mine came with an instruction leaflet. Here's an extract:
"For better playing of the unstriment fasten the too sides together with the leather bukkle.
After playing farsen the sides down lard"
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: deltasalmon on January 18, 2013, 04:34:29 PM
Sorry for commenting so late, I'm still catching up on this thread...

Wow, lotsa wood ! the ends of the modern ones are entirely plastic bar the reeds and action metalwork .. I`ll try and get a wooden one if I can find one .

I was amazed when I heard mention of wood with celluloid. I have two toy melodeons at home and both are made of cheap plastic. I thought about transfering the reeds, buttons and bellows to the same thing but making it out of wood and quickly gave up on the idea shortly after.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 04:39:32 PM
Anahata that's interesting, I had no idea there were differebt compositions, though now I think about it it makes sense really. I was half expecting glue on the toy reeds and was quite relieved the beige was was reedwax of their own devising.
Nick, did you move your action to a cajun-esque position on the back of the box or a hohner-esque flicky up and downy action on the side of the box? I spose the box is small enough for either, though I've never thought about moving buttons about. Also did you keep the original action? As chord, bass and air were all mounted together was it a rigmarole to do?

Ted, it's still in the design stage at the moment, design stage meaning in bits on the bench. Certainly it will be Flicky up and down Hohner air button of which I am used to. The action I feel is the last thing to look at but will certainly need something doing to it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 18, 2013, 04:46:11 PM
Natural beeswax, the main ingredient of reed wax, varies enormously in colour depending on the source, from almost white, through cream, yellow and brown. So the colour of any blended wax tells you nothing.  And beswax has a fairly high melting point so there is no risk of it melting in the summer, the main risk is it is too brittle, the added rosin in reed wax makes it tougher, and the added oil makes it softer.  Still best to use the proper stuff, but put beeswax will probably be ok for a while.
(Ps I used to keep bees and I'm still using stored wax from my bees to make reed wax)

'Spose you haven't got any to spare Theo?
The bookbinding beeswax I buy is sold by  Chandlers and has a very low melting point making me think that there maybe some additive.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 18, 2013, 04:47:07 PM
Aha so wheels are in motion, good to hear. Dependant on your success I may too embark upon altering the air button.
And Deltasalmon, sorry to hear that. But with regard to wood and celluloid, I think the older models are more inclined to this. Plastic seems to be more recnt boxes, though I could be wrong on both accounts. If you can get your hands on a wooden one, you should, and rekindle the spark for fiddling about with the wotsit thingmebobs in the box! ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 18, 2013, 04:57:35 PM
Mine is wood covered with celluloid. I look forward to the photos. I have a homebrew air valve almost ready to fit, come some milder weather.

Although "mini-melodeon" is a very common, if unexciting, generic name I think for Nick's proposed use:

Quote
The object being, when out in public/ folky environments, the comment would be. " oh look! There's a Pratt with a toy Melodeon ".    And, then blow their socks off!

the name "Wottatwotti" might be apposite.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 19, 2013, 12:40:11 PM
@ Nick Collis Bird..having a couple of spare 'Chanson's I'd be very interested in your method of re jigging the air button. The two that I've modded would have been greatly improved with a Hohner type system..and has anyone come up a source of affordable replacement bellows I wonder...? :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 19, 2013, 01:42:50 PM
@ Nick Collis Bird..having a couple of spare 'Chanson's I'd be very interested in your method of re jigging the air button. The two that I've modded would have been greatly improved with a Hohner type system..and has anyone come up a source of affordable replacement bellows I wonder...? :||:

Brian, there is an amazing amount of space in the bass section. It's quite possible to fit your own Hohner type palett in the usual position. I think Malcolm Bebb is well into this construction.
I'm still thinking that it's possible to wire up the original pallet into the usual position on the base plate that we are mostly used to.. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 19, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
There is no shortage of room, as Nick says. I haven't offered up an actual Hohner mechanism, mainly because I'm too mean. And I'm having (a perverse sort of) fun fabricating one.
The air hole needs to be fairly tight into the top RH corner, looking into the back, and I'm considering an elongated hole to keep the diameter down.
Work is presently stopped due to a heavy cold  :( and it being a bit nippy in my garage at present.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 19, 2013, 02:53:41 PM
Nick and Malcolm, thanks.My first mod was fitted with Hohner reeds on the treble side by Microbot, and as it worked so well I've sent it back to him to do the bass end.I'm OK with the mechanics and woodwork but a bit nervous about sorting the innards. The project on the bench at present is causing me grief; the plywood took staining so unevenly due to the difference  in absorbsion that I've decided on a white paint base and very vulgar barge style flowers... 8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 19, 2013, 03:02:08 PM
I am pretty unimpressed with the bass reeds, although having my paw covering most of the holes isn't doing it any favours.
Not an issue with me at present, since I am still learning to use them.

I will keep the celluloid in place for the time being  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
Nick and Malcolm, thanks.My first mod was fitted with Hohner reeds on the treble side by Microbot, and as it worked so well I've sent it back to him to do the bass end.I'm OK with the mechanics and woodwork but a bit nervous about sorting the innards. The project on the bench at present is causing me grief; the plywood took staining so unevenly due to the difference  in absorbsion that I've decided on a white paint base and very vulgar barge style flowers... 8)

Barge style flowers!  Brilliant idea.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 20, 2013, 11:37:47 AM
Malcolm...have sent PM but we suffered a power cut. Give me a bell if you did'nt get it...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: squeezy on January 20, 2013, 12:38:50 PM
I've got a job lot of these sitting in my shed.  I planned to get them all playing as well and in tune as possible without an expensive reed swap so I could teach a bunch of kids from the local primary school to play some of the tunes they do maypole dancing to in C.

I haven't yet got around to it - but I was wondering if the bellows could be made more airtight with some kind of aerosol spray plastic coating on the inside of the corners if such a thing exists.

Does anyone think that might work?  Or have any experience of doing similar?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on January 20, 2013, 12:52:02 PM
Does anyone think that might work?  Or have any experience of doing similar?

A chum of mine many moons ago sprayed tent reproofer on the inside of his bellows, slapped it all back together and tried to play it. Took weeks to clean the gunk off the reeds  ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
I have used tent repair sealant on the gussets and it did make an improvement. But not enough to recommend it.



PS on the outside...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 01:16:03 PM
The bellows are so poo I think I'm going to attempt to make my own ones  :P
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 20, 2013, 01:24:37 PM
The Bellows are what stop me from searching out an older wooden one of these - they drove me nuts in the last one, at the end they were almost unusable.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 20, 2013, 01:48:27 PM
I must have been very lucky to have got away with PVA on the gussets;two coats a couple of days apart got mine ALMOST air tight...but you need to have the bellows suspended and stretched open and apply very thick coats. I accept that my experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The bellows were quite stiff for a little while but have remained ALMOST airtight for 6 months...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
Biggest playabilty improvement - taped off one bank of reeds.

Also cured the dodgy tremolo  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 02:06:04 PM
I must have been very lucky to have got away with PVA on the gussets;two coats a couple of days apart got mine ALMOST air tight...but you need to have the bellows suspended and stretched open and apply very thick coats. I accept that my experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The bellows were quite stiff for a little while but have remained ALMOST airtight for 6 months...

I really do think that PVA is the way forward. Unless of course we are going to make a new set.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 20, 2013, 02:14:17 PM
.......or continue the search for a supplier of reasonably priced replacements...... (:) :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 02:17:26 PM
Thought about it but I don't like that disproportionately big radius and the plastic bellows frame. The radiused corner is, on mine, responsible for a lot of the leaking as it flexes open and the covering material is porous.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 02:45:41 PM
Have just found an amazing website. Tedrow concertinas. He has a photo montage/ instructions for making bellows. Very interesting, let me know what you think
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 02:55:10 PM
What I think is, you've forgotten to post the link  >:E

Although intuitively I also think it's a good site!

Link to web site (http://hmi.homewood.net/) Scroll down a bit
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 20, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
I tried the reed taping but this is no Lilly, I felt it sounded crap on 1 voice and lost the one advantage it had over all the overpriced boutique Castagnari-Mignon wannabes  - it was TWO Voice with quite a hohner-esque Trem .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 04:18:08 PM
Still wondering what to call our toy boxes.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 20, 2013, 04:20:23 PM
I still Think Plastagnari Minger suits them fine ....... or did til I found that older ones were made of Wood.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 04:26:02 PM
Having just written TOY I should point out that they are not toys. They are cheap little instruments for small fingers. And a damn sight better than my first Harmonica given as a present on my fifth birthday.
 Just thought I'd throw that in for fun.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 04:32:05 PM
I still Think Plastagnari Minger suits them fine ....... or did til I found that older ones were made of Wood.

Plastagnari Oakply then?
 How about  a "Frabber" from the verb to Frab, eg, muck about with.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on January 20, 2013, 05:06:10 PM
Or a Stresser (after Strasser) as continually fighting and fixing belows leaks is more stressful than stuck reeds in Baile/Stella PAs
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 20, 2013, 05:31:33 PM
Nick, The Tedrow bellows demo was awe inspiring, I just do'nt think I will live long enough to aquire the skill required or the multiplicity of tools ..... :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 05:43:48 PM
Nick, The Tedrow bellows demo was awe inspiring, I just do'nt think I will live long enough to aquire the skill required or the multiplicity of tools ..... :o

Go on Brian, have a go.you don't need all that equipment.
When I first started bookbinding as as hobby my press was two boards under the weight of one of my bed legs . A Stanley knife and a straight edge work wonders. Come on, you can do it Brian. Keep me posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 08:19:17 PM
I have a feeling we're in the wrong section here. Shouldn't we be in " Construction and repair"?
  Theo?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 08:24:45 PM
I wouldn't wonder if Theo were thinking "Sandpit"  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 20, 2013, 08:29:00 PM
I wouldn't wonder if Theo were thinking "Sandpit"  >:E

Which is probably where that little box will end up!
  By the way Malcolm, how's the cold?
Any chance of pics of the homebrew air button?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 08:37:02 PM
L'histoire so far:

http://melodeons-and-less.blogspot.co.uk

The cold - which sneakily abated on Thursday to turn into a full-on head cold Fri and Sat - is quietly abating but has settled on my chest rather more. So no more progress for nearly a week.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 09:53:59 PM
    Need to make my own bellows. Apart from that my wee Dino Patthettique is kind of done. Still unsure about installing stops or not, but reed blocks, staining and varnishing and cutting new grille etc. is all done. Mechanically is the same as it's ever been though did tighten some of the innards as they were more leaky than potato and leek soup in a sieve (very leeky  8))
    Still, my camera is crud, my room was a mess (I am a student after all) but that being said my little melodeon is coming along nicely.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 09:59:38 PM
    It doesn't come up in the photos but I went for an 'antiquey' look, i.e. the wood stained in patches so it looks 'worn' in places. You can't see it, but it's there  >:E
    Also bellows mounts need to be sanded right the way down and I have some grille mesh from an old PA that I am salvaging and will affix once I have some glue  :P
   

    P.S. Perhaps it should be called a Dino Baffetti (F)art?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 10:03:47 PM
Looks well different - saw the staining effect. Much more up-market!  ;D Is the white an earlier stage, or a different one?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 10:08:39 PM
    That's with the celluloid stripped off. Can post more pictures if you want Malcolm?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 10:21:52 PM
OK with what you've posted. Did you cut the bellows away?
Interested in what you've done about the bellows frame, my bellows is glued directly to the bass end and has a plastic frame at the treble end.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 10:25:08 PM
Mine were glued to bass end, but I had a wooden frame at the treble end. Yeah I cut the bellows away. It hurt me to do it, but I took a stanley to the ends of them and removed them. I was thinking about getting them restored but it's not worth it, I may aswell use my bellows-less-ness as a reason to experiment with building my own.
And my bellows were a horrible bright blue red and white, it would'nt have fitted with the brown  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 10:35:25 PM
And my bellows were a horrible bright blue red and white, it would'nt have fitted with the brown  ;D

LOL agreed. I almost fancy getting another one and stripping the paper off - it looks flimsy - and re-binding it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 20, 2013, 10:40:39 PM
    I asked someone of this parish if it was possible for them to do that job for me as I'm not experienced in bellows with regard to stripping and taping ect. It transpired it would be a costly (both time and money) job.
    Looking at my dismembered bellows now, I am wondering if perhaps I could attempt completely de-taping etc. I wonder if it would be a good idea, perhaps if it goes tits up at least templates could be made for replacement bellows. Hmmmm
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2013, 11:35:56 PM
It should be possible to re-glue the ends. You might lose a fold, depending on how easily it came off.

I am considering removing the red and blue paper to get back to the basic material. You can get bellows tape, but I think it's too thick for anything this small. I was going to get some thin leather strip from Concertina Spares  (http://concertina-spares.com/spareslist.htm) maybe 3/4" wide and re-bind all the way where the paper is at present.
Don't think that would be expensive. Prob leave existing "canvas" corners, for mechanical strength, the leather will seal it it. B&Q do some "Leather Glue" that I'm sure will be fine.

For mine I intend to cut out some "diamonds" to fit over the existing gussets. (They will be rounded diamonds!) This would be done first. Ideally one would replace them, but life is too short.
With the thin tape, this should work, with the bellows held extended. Then re-tape the outer edges. I have the leather, just planning to re-tape the corners at present. Waiting for weather and head cold to clear.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 21, 2013, 12:19:15 AM
    It didn't come off easily. I needed the strength of 43 men coupled with a sturdy stanley/screwdriver combo to remove them. I seriously thought at one point they were not removable, but then I calmed myself and eventually got them free. My one is an older model keep in mind, and has not been subjected to the ol' 'keep away from heat' etc that my other boxes abide by, so it's possible the glue kept melting further and further, bonding more and more. Still, I had never thought of just stripping them back, lobbing off a fold and retaping.
    I'm off to uni for 4/5 months come Friday, so will postpone modifications for a while whilst I pack/console mum, but will post relevant bits and bobs to my uni abode and continue the 'fettling'.
    Expect a fully working melodeon by Whitby sort of time  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on January 24, 2013, 07:38:45 PM
Hi Brian, Theo, Ted and all,

I've just had Brian's Chanson in for work on the bass end. Initially it was fitted with Hohner reeds (aluminium H-type) in C with 2nd button start. This required fitting another reedblock as the original plastic one was too small, I found. A cut-down treble reedblock taken from an old 'breaker Erika' was fitted.

The result was better than either I or Brian anticipated, so now it has come back for Hohner reeds to be fitted to the bass end also.

Brian has done a lot of modifications himself - double-bellows, well-positioned brackets and a lot of skilfull 'anti-leak-work'.The end-product is a punchy little instrument with genuine tonal quality . The downside? ...."I want one", says my wife Elli .... but I suppose that's a bit cheaper than "I want one" pointing at another Preciosa!

Brian has asked me to take a photo and make a recording ... the recording is on this soundcloud link ...

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/chansonbrianc2-1

Here is the only photo I got before my camera ran out of charge....

cheers

Mike R
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 24, 2013, 07:48:52 PM
Mike, many thanks for the info. We're the reeds original as fitted to the Chanson.? By that I mean are all the little Beano Pathetties fitted with them?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 24, 2013, 07:54:33 PM
Nice one, Mike.

Nick, no way is them original reeds! Originals are brass, for starters.


Brian - intrigued by the wooden base to the fingerboard - of necessity, or an improvement? Thinking of doing something there myself for better thumb support.

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 24, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
 8)The plastic board under the bass strap was replaced with polished wood from a sturdy cigar box . This was in order to fit a brass thumb piece; I've got a crippled left paw  and the brass piece stops it sliding through the strap up to my armpit and gives me some control over the bass buttons.I had wood left over and replaced the bottom of the fingerboard. The thumb piece is one of those curved fittings that you find on big sash windows at the bottom to raise them. I hope that makes sense Malcolm. Does make a nice noise though does'nt it? Nick, the Chanson reids have been replaced with Hohners. 8) :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 24, 2013, 09:46:43 PM
Cheers Brian - interesting!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 25, 2013, 11:39:34 PM
Congrats, looks and sounds 'the business'  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 26, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
8)The plastic board under the bass strap was replaced with polished wood from a sturdy cigar box . This was in order to fit a brass thumb piece; I've got a crippled left paw  and the brass piece stops it sliding through the strap up to my armpit and gives me some control over the bass buttons.I had wood left over and replaced the bottom of the fingerboard. The thumb piece is one of those curved fittings that you find on big sash windows at the bottom to raise them. I hope that makes sense Malcolm. Does make a nice noise though does'nt it? Nick, the Chanson reids have been replaced with Hohners. 8) :||:

My two reed blocks have been sent off to Martyn White to be replaced with C reeds of the Hohner  family. Trouble is I'll probably get them back before I  make the new bellows  and they'll just sit there while I think about the next move. Exciting though. A million pieces on the bench .Arrrrgh.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 26, 2013, 10:22:28 PM
Nick, wish I had the balls to build a set of bellows; perhaps when you've done yours I'll give it a go ...I think the Tedrow video scared the life out of me... :-\
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 27, 2013, 02:11:35 PM
Nick, wish I had the balls to build a set of bellows; perhaps when you've done yours I'll give it a go ...I think the Tedrow video scared the life out of me... :-\

Brian, don't be scared. Bob Tedrow was making world top quality Concertina bellows. Our little Chansons are much simpler being square and not thrupenny bit shape. Sorry Quentin.
His basic principle is to make the whole length in one and then make the cuts, in our case the four sides. Now I do have a band saw, but I see no reason why this couldn't be done with a hand fretsaw which I intend to use.
Incidentally , I have found a source of the self gummed cambric tape he mentions.
It's called  "gummed linen" in UK and is available from Conservation Resources. You'll find them on the web.( still don't know how to do links) one problem I've encountered is that the Chanson has only one wooden end. The other is just glued to the bass section. To make a proper bellows we would need wood or plastic on both ends. I'm thinking that those Hohner clips for the bass end might work. Undo the clips, off comes the bass box.
Malcolm Bebb is a great source of information  and I'm sure he can add to this.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 27, 2013, 04:33:36 PM
Malcolm Bebb is a great source of information  and I'm sure he can add to this.
:|bl Bloody 'ell Nick, if you'd wanted me to buy you a pint at the next Swanage FF you only had to ask!

...opinions, maybe...

The methods used to make "proper" concertina bellows, and to make melodeon/accordion/cheap concertina bellows, are different. Concertina bellows are traditionally made from individual pieces of card, cut and hinged with linen/cotton and leather. This is what Bob shows, one method. He doesn't quite separate the card, but it's the same principle.
T'others use folded card, what people might call "concertina" folded.

Two reasons, one is cost/ease of manufacture but also because on anything with reed blocks the blocks are liable to extend into the bellows space (as they do on mini-melodeons by up to about 25mm, or an inch on the older ones).

The bellows needs to clear the reed blocks, plus the valves, plus leave a bit of air space. So the  accordion family tends to have more, shallower folds while traditionally build concertinas (inc better hybrids) have fewer, deeper folds because the reeds pans are flat so the bellows has its space to itself. Last time I counted, my mini melodeon had about 14 folds.

To make accordion bellows by concertina methods would be a pain. Do-able, but fiddly. They'd be lovely to play with very little playing in, but you'd need to be keen. And a mini-melodeon is smaller still.

Charlie and others sell the folded card for grown-up boxes, but it wouldn't suit minis. Have a look inside the bellows, you'll see quite easily. Also it will be thinner card. I don't know where to get this size of folded card, even allowing for using cheap stuff not conservation grade card.
Obviously somebody makes it, but whether for cheapo concertinas or melodeons, it's likely to be somewhere around China... You can fold your own, you can do it with some blocks of wood and clamps or a Workmate, but is sounds easier than it is. Although might be easier with thin card, not tried. PS it's bloody boring.

Card from cereal boxes has been suggested, pre-folded! but that depends how much All-Bran you eat. And you'd still have the other fold to hinge. Bias binding from a haberdashery might work for that.
(I have stashed some card from Foster's Lager outers to try it out some day. I thought using that might have a little more street cred than making bellows out of Rice Krispies boxes. But, since it's mass produced lager, I have reservations on the latter point.) (No, it wasn't for me)

For tools, what I call a guillotine and what Nick calls a bench knife (IIRC) would be handy for individual card cutting.
I tried cutting the corners of a folded bellows by hand, using a modified mitre guide (and a saw. Before some other b*gger says it.) it was even less successful than I thought it would be. A geriatric mouse with his false teeth out would have got a cleaner edge. I'm sure 90% of that is me, but for my next attempt it will be the bandsaw. No question.

Finally, bellows frame. You are lucky to have wood, mine is plastic. You'd just have to do what they've done, glue directly to the bass end. Again, unless you've the means and enthusiasm to design and make something better. A jig, or some careful marking out, might be good.

Nick is probably one of the best equipped, both in skills and tools/materials, to attempt a bellows re-make. People have done similar. Probably put Brian right off now but remember -the materials are not expensive, the tools needn't be, it is largely confidence and practice. (Both of which I'm working on!)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 27, 2013, 05:23:59 PM
Malcolm, What with You and Tedrow I'm going to have nightmares for a week...I think ,{ as the only man in the world who can make Chanson bellows ALMOST airtight} I will go back to what I know best, buy another Chanson, just for the bellows, Evostick the bellows together, and apply plentiful coats of PVA to the gussets. I know that Microbot will back me when I say {ad nauseum} it really does work. Perhaps I have a special magic.....? Unlikely..Mark 2 almost ready to be sent off to Microbot to be converted to D.. What larks Pip... Oh, any ideas on what to do with the evicerated corpses of bellows harvested Chansons..? ??? :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 27, 2013, 08:13:30 PM
Malcolm..I've sent PM
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 28, 2013, 01:54:16 PM
Im going to make my own bellows. I made my chanson a single voice, so am 'toying'  :P with the idea of making a flat mounted reed block to a) make it lighter (not that it needs to get lighter)
b) to remove any chance of my homemade bellows not being big enough.
Am waiting on my stuff to be posted over, will keep you posted too
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 28, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I had a thought today at work (don't start!)
Making bellows really is not that difficult. It's a psychological thing, they LOOK so complicated.
But once you realise that it's only a fold with a gusset repeated many times it seems much simpler .
I mean, that's all a computer is: on, off on off on off on repeated many times in Binary. And in my case the computer is often off/on
However, the point I make is valid. A fold and a gusset many times. I must admit that I prefer the single strip method over the folded cardboard idea which I think is smore difficult to achieve.
I still sing the praises of Bob Tedrow. It's probably  worth having a look at camera bellows websites, the principle is the same, although tapered. I'll let you know how I get on and keep us posted Ted and Malcolm and all of you who are intrepid enough to have a go.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 29, 2013, 01:45:59 PM
Just had a slap-yourself-on-the-head duh! moment when the blindingly "we-did-this-in-primary-school" obvious is once again revealed.  :|bl

The reason why my last attempt at card folding was so dismal is that I totally neglected to score the card. I came across a gizmo called a "Scor Pal" which describes how to make "accordion folds" in your card stock (basically a grooved surface with some guides).

Another source suggested using a flat "bone" tool with a straight edge (and a jig). Either way, with a decent score, getting a neat straight consistent fold for bellows making would be much easier.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 29, 2013, 02:45:46 PM
Do you know, I'm beginning to think that we humble Chansonistas are laying the foundations for a PHD course...you interested Ted? ;D :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 30, 2013, 08:39:57 AM
Course I am! You know though, there's a weekend workshop in here somewhere too...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 30, 2013, 02:41:07 PM
Course I am! You know though, there's a weekend workshop in here somewhere too...

Count me in!
 Especially if anyone wants to visit Swanage.
Am at work this week and have been playing around with bits of card and paper. Lo and behold, the Tedrow method really works and almost seems too easy. I'm sure there's a pitfall coming soon though.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 30, 2013, 07:41:14 PM
Here's a tip I picked up from an old boy who faked furniture many years ago..To make a cheap and very effective oak stain mix a large teaspoon full of black bitumin paint with a pint of white spirit and stir or shake.To make it lighter or darker use more or less bitumen.I used this to stain Mk2  7 button baby, then gave it a couple of coats of varnish. I've used this for years in barn conversions, cheap as chips and goes a long way... but that's going off thread....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 31, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
mmmm bitumen, smells like old traction engines  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on January 31, 2013, 11:13:51 AM
Nah Ted, does'nt smell of anything when its dry..... like half an hour after application.. ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on January 31, 2013, 02:19:47 PM
bugger, it couldve been a defining feature  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 31, 2013, 05:18:34 PM
Here's a tip I picked up from an old boy who faked furniture many years ago..To make a cheap and very effective oak stain mix a large teaspoon full of black bitumin paint with a pint of white spirit and stir or shake.To make it lighter or darker use more or less bitumen.I used this to stain Mk2  7 button baby, then gave it a couple of coats of varnish. I've used this for years in barn conversions, cheap as chips and goes a long way... but that's going off thread....

Creosote would be my guess  or even Tomato soup. And definitely nothing that your mother would insist on rubbing on your chest when trying to get off school.
Back to the thread.
Bellows making: I don't have a bandsaw, well I do in London but it's well jigged up and I really shouldn't disturb that. However, I do have a friend who is a picture framer. I'll make up the billets as Bob Tedrow says and then ask him if he can make the cuts on his machine. Much better than trying a handsaw methinks.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 01, 2013, 11:43:48 AM
It's amazing what thoughts one comes up with after a tincture or two.
Take a Chanson ( Who said as far away as possible ?). Take a Chanson and attach it to a car foot pump . The expression could still be made with the bellows . I think it could turn out to be one of the finest keep fit machines of all time. May even invent itself a new Morris dance.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 01, 2013, 11:58:37 AM
Got my Seven Button Baby back from Microbot an hour or so ago with lovely Hohner basses to go with the Hohner treble end and it sounds astounding [weeps quietly with joy] Can't put the little bugger down.. 8) :||: :||: :||: :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 01, 2013, 12:01:39 PM
The comical thing is that Chanson are one of the lesser seen and later names of these boxes - they were originally called "Hero" . I`d hazard a guess that all the Chanson badged ones are all plastic bar the bellows and reeds..

Hohner badged the semi-transparent version  - talk about an Opaquerwork  ;D

You gotta tell us Brian - how much is the total of the box including buying it and all the work done ? .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 01, 2013, 12:25:32 PM
The comical thing is that Chanson are one of the lesser seen and later names of these boxes - they were originally called "Hero" . I`d hazard a guess that all the Chanson badged ones are all plastic bar the bellows and reeds..

Hohner badged the semi-transparent version  - talk about an Opaquerwork  ;D

You gotta tell us Brian - how much is the total of the box including buying it and all the work done ? .

I think we call them Chansons because that was my original post ,asking if £119 was a fair price on eBay.
It now turns out that they are worth about + or - £15.00 .  They are all so similar I think that they are all made in the same factory in China. Mine for instance is called a Goodlin mini accordion , but that is only on the instruction leaflet. No markings on the machine itself . On the packing box it says Tobar accordion . Tobar are suppliers of cheap toys, I think they are based on an old airfield in Norfolk.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 01, 2013, 12:42:42 PM
I`ve seen loads of Tobar badged or listed ones, mine was nameless bar the marking for the Air button and letters by the buttons .... £9.99 from Home Bargains early last march

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 01, 2013, 01:00:00 PM
I`ve seen loads of Tobar badged or listed ones, mine was nameless bar the marking for the Air button and letters by the buttons .... £9.99 from Home Bargains early last march

Identical to mine Adam, I assume yours is wooden also.
Ps mine has no markings whatsoever .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 01, 2013, 01:07:35 PM
Most seem identical bar markings, although I have seen some on Ebay some with exposed levers (unless they're dummies).
Mine, of unknown age, is wood based but still plastic reed blocks and base.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 01, 2013, 01:26:55 PM
[Identical to mine Adam, I assume yours is wooden also.
Ps mine has no markings whatsoever .

Nope, plastic all the way - I`m after getting a wooden one
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 01, 2013, 05:02:25 PM
@ Adam T..How much has it cost? Well,I got given one, then got two from Oxfam[do'nt you love them?] then bought one solely for the bellows in order to make an extended bellows version, so all in all, and not counting my time mucking about in the shed I'm guessing arround £100? Microbot was doing all sorts of other magic on my behalf at the time [including bandoneonising my 1040 in D] so the pricing is a bit of a guess for reeds. As for the trademarks, all of mine have been Child Prodigy with a wooden carcass. ::) :||: :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 01, 2013, 05:07:10 PM
so all in all, and not counting my time mucking about in the shed I'm guessing arround £100?

Well you can`t argue with that ! . where else can you get an "Organetta" type melodeon fully fettled by one of the most respected in the business for that amount of cash ? ....

These things are crying out for decent bellows, they`re the limiting factor even with the chinese brass reeds - in fact even more so as they`re insensitive, hard to gap properly and don`t stay gapped long. So what enterprising soul is going to start up a production line of bellows ?  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 01, 2013, 05:16:56 PM
Step forward Nik Collis Bird... ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 01, 2013, 05:32:56 PM
Agreed --------- C'mon Nick, you`re the cardboard, leather, binding and glue expert here !!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 01, 2013, 09:05:56 PM
I have measured the thickness of the bellows card at approx 0.75mm which, based on some rules of thumb, comes out at 550 to 600 gsm.
The Fosters outer that I tried came out at .65 ~ .70 mm, so not bad.

Fold depth outside to outside is around 18mm. 15 peaks, each 36mm nominally allowing ends to be same as rest, so around 540mm.  Need A3 sheet. Width approx 170mm/135mm before rounding and 95mm/60mm.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 01, 2013, 09:58:49 PM
Agreed --------- C'mon Nick, you`re the cardboard, leather, binding and glue expert here !!
Yep, I'm on the case, pun intended.. It's over 30 years since I last made a set but am Ready to have a go. Funnily enough, I had an email today from Martyn White suggesting that bellows making for Chansons might be a good sideline . I think it might be a little bit like the " FR18 air button" scenario  from a different thread. I will keep you posted though! I'm still at the Blue Peter stage, you know , toilet rolls and sticky back plastic. I've already finished Tracy Island.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on February 02, 2013, 04:55:32 AM
Most seem identical bar markings, although I have seen some on Ebay some with exposed levers (unless they're dummies).
Mine, of unknown age, is wood based but still plastic reed blocks and base.

The first ones I had, more than fifteen years ago, had the exposed levers; functional but very cheap. Thin stamped metal levers with springs that continually broke. You can still find them occasionally on Ebay (US). These old ones were of celluloid-covered wood and had wood reed blocks. They were so cheep that, when a reed inevitably went out-of-tune, it was less trouble to go and buy another box at Elderly (giving me an excuse to play their full-sized boxes, of which they had more than a few back then) than it was to bother changing reeds. Though I did change reeds a time or two, as the bellows of the new box might not be as good as on the old box.

TBV

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2013, 08:14:05 AM
I've already finished Tracy Island.
Couldn't resist goggling it  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiP1YdelEo
Wot larks Pip!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 02, 2013, 10:26:01 PM
I've already finished Tracy Island.
Couldn't resist goggling it  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiP1YdelEo
Wot larks Pip!


Steve, that is so lovely, well done for finding it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Martyn on February 04, 2013, 02:26:45 AM
OK own up, who bought it?
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toy-accordion-squeeze-box-/271145041299?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=LCu1wofT

M.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Martyn on February 04, 2013, 02:57:41 AM
I'm surprised no one has even mentioned the Chanson 'Binci' yet.   :-X

Martyn
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 04, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
The OFFICIAL Hohner version .. the model 720

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-MINI-MELODEON-ACCORDION-for-ALL-AGES-BEGINNERS-/400381519050?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item5d389924ca
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 04, 2013, 07:46:24 AM
With added apostrophe's.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 04, 2013, 08:01:55 AM
I think that`s a copyright logo - some of them have hohner on them, all the hohner branded ones I`ve seen have been transparent though which is odd.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 04, 2013, 10:33:49 AM
Anyone actually tried the Hohner 720? I'd put money on the bellows being exactly the same as all the other 7 button babies we've been discussing and fiddling with throughout this thread. Perhaps the reeds are better? Apart from being tranparent I doubt if it's any different from the rest. Memo to manufacturers.. make decent bellows, charge double what you're charging now and the more eccentric of the melodeon clan will beat a path to your door.. ::) :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 04, 2013, 12:38:25 PM
Anyone actually tried the Hohner 720? I'd put money on the bellows being exactly the same as all the other 7 button babies we've been discussing and fiddling with throughout this thread. Perhaps the reeds are better? Apart from being tranparent I doubt if it's any different from the rest. Memo to manufacturers.. make decent bellows, charge double what you're charging now and the more eccentric of the melodeon clan will beat a path to your door.. ::) :||:

Yep, agreed, it`s just the Tobar/Hero but in transparent plastic ....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 06, 2013, 09:46:21 PM
I tried a Hohner version, but it wasn't any better.

Trying to make up my mind whether the action on this one  (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190794687290?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619)is horribly crude or beautifully simple.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 07, 2013, 07:36:02 AM
That`s the original design, This is the first version (badged Hero) though some later ones carried it on - and I`d rather have the later fingerboard type ..  Note the separate bellows and hand straps rather than the later All in one and the smaller bass/air buttons . sadly the bellows are of the same Sieve design .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on February 07, 2013, 12:39:31 PM
Not sure if this has already been posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfvCxfBH7j8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfvCxfBH7j8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 07, 2013, 04:02:51 PM
That`s the original design, This is the first version (badged Hero) though some later ones carried it on - and I`d rather have the later fingerboard type ..  Note the separate bellows and hand straps rather than the later All in one and the smaller bass/air buttons . sadly the bellows are of the same Sieve design .

Actually Adam they are not separate bellows. Only on one side,the bass end is just  glued on with no fillet.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 07, 2013, 04:45:56 PM
Actually Adam they are not separate bellows. Only on one side,the bass end is just  glued on with no fillet.

Hmm, I`m on about the straps - on the later boxes, the bass strap and bellows strap are all in one piece with a screw in the middle whereas on the old open pallet Hero, the bellows straps are separate from the bass strap
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 09, 2013, 01:54:36 PM
See my last post under the thread cheap bellows
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 09, 2013, 02:00:14 PM
Carrying on from cheap bellows, you might ask why we Chansonisters bother.
My own opinion is that it is quite possible to make a really good box from a toy and the big advantage  is that all the fiddly bits are already made. A bit like the brilliant film "The Flight of the Phoenix " only in reverse.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 09, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
Yup and without the risk of getting savaged by Baboons (or was that Sands of the Kalahari - very similar film) I just hope that Ernest Borgnine isn`t a Box player  :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 09, 2013, 08:44:09 PM
I'm not much into films, but if it must be Flight of the Phoenix then we'd have to start with a two-row C-F or C-G as a minimum.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 10, 2013, 07:29:55 AM
I'm not much into films, but if it must be Flight of the Phoenix then we'd have to start with a two-row C-F or C-G as a minimum.

Eh?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 10, 2013, 09:45:12 AM
I'm not much into films, but if it must be Flight of the Phoenix then we'd have to start with a two-row C-F or C-G as a minimum.

Eh?

Well, they started off with a big one and ended up with a little one, if it's the film I'm thinking of.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 10, 2013, 10:34:02 AM
Well, people, apparently we are now part of a cult according to this guy (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CULT-MINI-ACCORDION-MELODEON-RARER-VERSION-WITH-KEYS-INSTEAD-OF-BUTTONS-/140915440844?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item20cf36fccc):

I quote:
A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE HAS GOT A VINTAGE WHEATSTONE CONCERTINA WORTH A SMALL FORTUNE, AND THIS LITTLE GUY OF MINE (TO MY EARS) SOUNDS MUCH LOUDER.

Once you have seen his advert on Ebay, you will understand why he thinks loud is good (and probably thinks CAPS LOCK is subtle).

(...MEN WITH BEARDS, DRINKING REAL ALE, FROM PEWTER TANKARDS, SHAKING THEIR HEADS IN DISBELIEF...) 

Many a true word...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on February 10, 2013, 11:08:40 AM
Once you have seen his advert on Ebay, you will understand why he thinks loud is good (and probably thinks CAPS LOCK is subtle).

(...MEN WITH BEARDS, DRINKING REAL ALE, FROM PEWTER TANKARDS, SHAKING THEIR HEADS IN DISBELIEF...) 

Never trust an advert in Comic Sans

MAN WITH BEARD, DRINKING TEA, FROM A BONE CHINA CUP!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: squeezy on February 10, 2013, 11:39:16 AM
I've been deliberately ignoring this thread!  But I've always been astounded that these little things that give you a perfectly playable 7 button instrument with a bit of fettling can cost 2% of the price of a new pokerwork.

I bought a box of 10 of them when they were on offer at £9 each a few months ago with a view to getting them all playing fairly well in tune with each other and then offering to go in to my kids' school and set up a small band of 4-7 year olds as an after-school class to tie in with the maypole dancing they do (and I play for).

Think of where the ukulele was 10 years ago - this could be the next big thing if a few more melodeon players could do similar!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Andy Simpson on February 10, 2013, 11:43:23 AM

Think of where the ukulele was 10 years ago - this could be the next big thing if a few more melodeon players could do similar!

NO!.

I do not want Hipsters anywhere near the melodeon, thank you very much...

 ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: squeezy on February 10, 2013, 11:51:04 AM
Oh - don't let's be greedy with the best instrument in the world!

Share the love  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Andy Simpson on February 10, 2013, 12:13:32 PM
Just think what it'll lead to...

Sidmouth & Whitby clogged with huge numbers of people who weren't there the year before but are loudly claiming that they've been going for years, long "before it was cool". Real ale bars and CAMRA being squeezed out of festivals by Tuborg and Red Stripe. New Morris sides in trilby hats waving those Yasser Arafat scarves around and barely able to get their feet off the ground, let alone caper properly, because their skinny jeans restrict their movement too much. People asking what's wrong with their toy melodeon on these boards with descriptive photos on tumblr and instagram. Poor repairers having to fix reeds that have been improperly rewaxed with hair wax instead of reed wax...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Anahata on February 10, 2013, 02:40:51 PM
I bought a box of 10 of them when they were on offer at £9 each a few months ago with a view to getting them all playing fairly well in tune with each other and then offering to go in to my kids' school and set up a small band of 4-7 year olds as an after-school class to tie in with the maypole dancing they do (and I play for).

Suffolk Folk did this years ago (http://suffolkfolk.co.uk/sch-mini-melodeons.html) though we didn't bother  with tuning and fettling, just supplied them as purchased...

It was a success where a teacher in the school was really keen to do it and support the project, but fell flat when the teacher in question left the school.

Definitely worth a try though!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on February 10, 2013, 02:58:56 PM
Hipsters with mini melodeons taking pictures with instagram *shudder*
 ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 11, 2013, 02:43:33 PM
I'm seriously considering getting all of us Chansonisters together. However, there could be a problem.
   Have we decided on a social key, mines in C ,when Martyn's done it.
The way us lot are going about it , how about K.? Or even K flat. Ok well K was a long time ago. Often wonder what she's doing now.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Andrew Wigglesworth on February 11, 2013, 06:06:44 PM
Well, people, apparently we are now part of a cult according to this guy (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CULT-MINI-ACCORDION-MELODEON-RARER-VERSION-WITH-KEYS-INSTEAD-OF-BUTTONS-/140915440844?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item20cf36fccc):

I quote:
A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE HAS GOT A VINTAGE WHEATSTONE CONCERTINA WORTH A SMALL FORTUNE, AND THIS LITTLE GUY OF MINE (TO MY EARS) SOUNDS MUCH LOUDER.

Once you have seen his advert on Ebay, you will understand why he thinks loud is good (and probably thinks CAPS LOCK is subtle).

(...MEN WITH BEARDS, DRINKING REAL ALE, FROM PEWTER TANKARDS, SHAKING THEIR HEADS IN DISBELIEF...) 

Many a true word...

He can pull the other one, it's get bells on.




... damn ...  :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 13, 2013, 03:57:04 PM
SHOCK HORROR PROBE!
    Choose the right card gang. I'm really convinced that the strip method is the way to go for making bellows as in the Bob Tedrow method. However I chose a book board that I thought would do. But after removing from the press ,the whole thing delaminated before my very eyes coming apart in several layers.
SO, It's back to the drawing board. I'm not giving up on this prototype ,I can get all my mistakes out of the way on this one and not feel too bad about about it.
I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 13, 2013, 04:50:41 PM
Oh Nick, you are such a card - oh - well, you were...

Probably for the best, though - would have been a real lamina of a bellows!




Apart from Bob's suggestions, I think Hallelujah Al has posted some suggestions for suitable card (but it might have been on C-Net not here).
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 13, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
Nick, why not Dartmoor Festival? Microbot will soon be converting my Mk2 to D so I can come over all superior and you can fall in the Sid again and nacker your new bellows...what larks Pip.. >:E :||: :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 14, 2013, 02:47:24 PM
Nick, why not Dartmoor Festival? Microbot will soon be converting my Mk2 to D so I can come over all superior and you can fall in the Sid again and nacker your new bellows...what larks Pip.. >:E :||: :|glug

The way it seems at the moment Brian, I'll chuck the whole lot in the Sid. It must improve the abortion of bellows I've made so far, but not too sure of the quality of water thereafter.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 15, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
I`ve got a Tobar pearloid one coming soon - I`m hoping it`s a wooden one based on the pearloid finish and the Tobar brand (on the box) . I can then join you in Hohnering this thing (or sending it to Mike like Brian did) when there`s enough of us it may be viable to put in a bellows order somewhere? , Lilliput length with italian suppleness would be good :)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 15, 2013, 05:12:58 PM
I`ve got a Tobar pearloid one coming soon - I`m hoping it`s a wooden one based on the pearloid finish and the Tobar brand (on the box) . I can then join you in Hohnering this thing (or sending it to Mike like Brian did) when there`s enough of us it may be viable to put in a bellows order somewhere? , Lilliput length with italian suppleness would be good :)

Let's hope it's wood Adam.
I'm still a million miles from sorting out the bellows but I will win I can assure you.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 15, 2013, 05:51:08 PM

Well - they do say - if a job's worth doing, it's worth getting someone else to do...

but...

I'm still a million miles from sorting out the bellows but I will win I can assure you.

That's the spirit! My man!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 15, 2013, 10:30:41 PM

Well - they do say - if a job's worth doing, it's worth getting someone else to do...

but...

I'm still a million miles from sorting out the bellows but I will win I can assure you.

That's the spirit! My man!

Don't you start on me matey!
By the way, I feel a beer visit coming on.
Title: I got WOOD
Post by: Adam-T on February 20, 2013, 02:17:27 PM
I got Wood guys ................ I got WOOD

Hmm, no I don`t mean it in the American sense of the word I mean it in this sense of the word

Title: Re: I got WOOD
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 20, 2013, 03:54:48 PM
I got Wood guys ................ I got WOOD

Hmm, no I don`t mean it in the American sense of the word I mean it in this sense of the word

Great news Adam,
where did you get it?
Mine is wood also. I can't remember if Malcolm's is. Being wood it's possible to turn these little boxes into high quality instruments.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 20, 2013, 04:11:45 PM
I got it off E-Bay, there are a few Tobars on there at the moment, I thought it would be wood by the darker Pearloid finish and the grille looked Layered rather than plastic..

This still has plastic reedblocks, plastic bellows frame and bass end plate (the lever ones had a wooden base end plate), combined bellows and hand strap and the fingerboard is Wood covered in celluloid with a plastic panel underneath .. the bellows are a bit less sieve-like than the all plastic one I had and have patterned paper in the folds rather than plain, main tape colour is blue rather than black ..

It`s just reminded me how much 1st button start limits the tunes you can play, when I get it Done, it`s going to 2nd button start , 3rd would leave too few higher notes IMO. I managed the 1st part of "Speed the Plough" a lot easier than expected, the bellows seem less stiff than the new plastic "Home Bargains" one even after the plastic one was thrashed to death .

EDIT - Pallets are WOOD and could do with proper facing material as they leak. Pic of Pallets below. the all plastic version has plastic pallets

Title: Re: I got WOOD
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 20, 2013, 05:47:30 PM
I got Wood guys ................ I got WOOD


Well, I'm very happy for you both.

Mine are wood. One with plastic bellows frame. The other doesn't have a bellows frame but doesn't need one as it doesn't have a bellows.
Similar to Adam's.

Quote from: Nick
Being wood it's possible to turn these little boxes into high quality instruments.

 ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 20, 2013, 08:04:44 PM
You should have seen her ladyship's face when I shouted "I got WOOD" - LOL (thankfully melodeons don`t have that effect on me..

Yep, the all plastic ones would appear to be a late change, though I`d have like a really early one with wood bellows frames and bass end plate . the join between the bellows and frame isn`t leaking like the all plastic one did.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 20, 2013, 08:36:18 PM
So far:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 20, 2013, 08:39:24 PM
pretty well finished the one Microbot is going turn into a D box. It has taken stain and 500 coats of varnish very well...Weird thing is the bellows frame; when I pulled the pins the pinholes in the frame were mishapen and lined up with the bellows almost by accident..I suppose someone was'nt concentrating when it was jigged up..I'm lying about the 500 coats of varnish, I meant 5..typo..       Brian West Devon ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 20, 2013, 08:57:43 PM
Brilliant work Malcolm - you`ll have to put a reed behind the old Air button pallet , a counterbass perhaps ?

You`ll have to sell those Air button mechs ;-)

Pics of the varnished box Brian ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 20, 2013, 09:01:13 PM
I'll get Microbot to do that when the job is done Nick. [I do'nt know how to do it.... apparently you need a camera or a phone and I do'nt have either...]
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on February 21, 2013, 07:48:37 AM
Damn, I`d have stuck a tatty low rez camera in with the 1040 if I`d known , I had a couple of old 2Mp ones kicking about at the time
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 21, 2013, 09:08:22 AM
Lovely thought Adam, cheers! Thing is I've never had a lot of interest in cameras and phones.... what are grandaughters for after all? I'm not a total technophobe, I've got a mobile but it's not fitted with a camera.. memo to self.. when you're in a hole stop digging.. :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 21, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
Malcolm, that air button machanism is the neatest thing..oddly, the original 'little finger ' air button works really well for me with my crippled paw... (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 21, 2013, 05:51:11 PM
Thanks guys.  :|bl Yes, the plan is to move the bass/chord down and put a bass on the "spare" hole.

Next job on this box is to attempt to seal the bellows.  ::)

But a spell of milder weather is a prerequisite.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 22, 2013, 05:43:46 PM
So far:

Malcolm, that little effort  is brilliant. Do you think it would work with an FR18 ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 22, 2013, 05:52:10 PM
Ok gang, scene one take two. Bellows
Have now cut some new materials in the workshop in London UK, still going with the Bob Tedrow method. ie strips rather than folded card.
Will make a start down in Dorset on Sunday, will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on February 27, 2013, 12:52:28 PM
Microbot has just played 7 Button Baby Mk 2 down the phone to me; it was bloody wonderful! It's been given Hohner reeds in D and will be the perfect companion to Mk1 in C.[I can feel a Mk3 in G comming on....] Anyway, he will play it here for our delectation on Melnet when he gets a minute. If he also puts up a piccy or two as well to show off the varnish finish my cup will run over... ;D :||: :||: ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 01, 2013, 11:01:57 AM
Who was it beat me to the camoflaged 7 button on Ebay last night? Malcolm? Adam ? NCB ? Can't be Ted, he's across the water... :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 01, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
Not Guilty - though was tempted
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 01, 2013, 10:21:45 PM
Who was it beat me to the camoflaged 7 button on Ebay last night? Malcolm? Adam ? NCB ? Can't be Ted, he's across the water... :'(

Not me Guv. I assume it was plastic. Anyway, not too sure  that I trust those East Anglians even when in NI.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 01, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
Not me neither.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 01, 2013, 10:53:21 PM
OK gang,
The story so far ( bellows)
I've used a much better card stock and decided to use Scotch glue throughout . Remember I am going by the Bob Tedrow method. I now have a much sturdier clump of folds, a bit like a Venetian blind and am now ready for the band saw. I took mark 1  to my picture framer and he cut right through it ,turning it into rubbish.
Mark II I'm taking back to London. I have a band saw there although I will need to take it apart to make the cuts,removing jigs etc. I shouldn't  be in too much trouble, I do own the place after all.
  Scotch glue seems far stronger than PVA  which "squidged" under pressure. The whole bellows collapsed . Scotch once set seems unmovable .
I'll keep you posted.
Scotch glue has other names such as Pearl or Hoof &Horn but does need to be heated up in a proper glue pot. If you don't have one there are many ways of getting round this. You can always PM me.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 01, 2013, 11:14:59 PM
We wait with bated breath.

I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit. The garage is about 7C at the moment, I can function out there from about 10C. I avoid sharp pointy objects when I have cold hands.

What are you using for hinge material?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on March 01, 2013, 11:45:14 PM
Hi Brian, Nick, Theo and all!

I've finished Brain's Chanson in D ... recording at link below.

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/brianchansond

It's a great little instrument, and Brian has worked his usual magic on it in terms of bellows sealing and casework _ but I did like the 'doubled-up-bellows' on his Chanson in C!

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 02, 2013, 06:50:53 AM
We wait with bated breath.

I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit. The garage is about 7C at the moment, I can function out there from about 10C. I avoid sharp pointy objects when I have cold hands.

What are you using for hinge material?

Am using jaconette  and Rexine. Leather was getting expensive for experimenting with.
The final version will be jaconette and leather.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 02, 2013, 09:07:44 AM
Hi Brian, Nick, Theo and all!

I've finished Brain's Chanson in D ... recording at link below.

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/brianchansond

It's a great little instrument, and Brian has worked his usual magic on it in terms of bellows sealing and casework _ but I did like the 'doubled-up-bellows' on his Chanson in C!

Cheers



Mike

Mike, that's astounding! I just hope I can get somewhere near that.
Martyn White is doing the reeds and me the bellows.
Do you think the reeds will wil have a slight Estuarine accent?
Apologies to Martyn of course.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 02, 2013, 09:20:01 AM
I should have put an edit to that. For our world wide membership.
Estuarine English is an accent peculiar to the Thames estuary. Well practiced in the county of Essex,
Ian Dury was a wonderful exponent of such. Although nothing to do with Melodeons, He's well worth looking up.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 02, 2013, 09:33:17 AM
OK gang,
The story so far ( bellows)
I've used a much better card stock and decided to use Scotch glue throughout . Remember I am going by the Bob Tedrow method. I now have a much sturdier clump of folds, a bit like a Venetian blind and am now ready for the band saw. I took mark 1  to my picture framer and he cut right through it ,turning it into rubbish.
Mark II I'm taking back to London. I have a band saw there although I will need to take it apart to make the cuts,removing jigs etc. I shouldn't  be in too much trouble, I do own the place after all.
  Scotch glue seems far stronger than PVA  which "squidged" under pressure. The whole bellows collapsed . Scotch once set seems unmovable .
I'll keep you posted.
Scotch glue has other names such as Pearl or Hoof &Horn but does need to be heated up in a proper glue pot. If you don't have one there are many ways of getting round this. You can always PM me.

Forgot to mention. The reason I'm using scotch is that  it's the only glue that would have been available to the likes of Mr.Hohner and a certain Mr. Crabb
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 02, 2013, 09:42:19 AM
Scotch glue seems a pretty good choice, it's what I would use. The calico stuff sounds pretty OK for hinges, I guess the Rexine is just for sealing?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 02, 2013, 10:01:10 AM
Scotch glue seems a pretty good choice, it's what I would use. The calico stuff sounds pretty OK for hinges, I guess the Rexine is just for sealing?

Dead right Malcolm. Actual Rexine is not made any more but there is an equivalent , not quite so good, but a bloody sight cheaper than leather. You're right Rexine for mark II  is the sealer.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 05, 2013, 03:40:10 PM
Ok Gang,
The ongoing saga of the bellows.
WELL! I managed to do the same as my Picture Framer and cut right through the block on the first cut.
But all the others went well, it really is a very tricky operation and thank God I'm not a Surgeon.
The block I have now is saveable with not too much extra work. Instead of just one end to stick together I now have two. Ho Hum. However, mark II DOES look like the real thing and when I learn to post photo's I will.
   More to follow as and when.

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 05, 2013, 07:27:07 PM
You did cut it four ways and not six, didn't you?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 05, 2013, 07:42:34 PM

I saw this and thought of Nick - just the job for playing in rivers.  (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Playmobil-Akkordeon-aus-Stadtleben-G2560-/400427037300?pt=DE_Allesf%C3%BCrKind_Spielzeug_Playmobil&hash=item5d3b4fb274#ht_1452wt_839)

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 05, 2013, 08:30:17 PM
It's getting really weird Malcolm, every week another unlikely 7 button baby appears on Ebay..there may be more to this than meets the eye..have we Chansoniers been chosen as the disciples of some interstellar invasion force who have mistakenly taken the shape of 7 button babies in order to mingle with us? Or can it be the insideous affect of Pussers rum after a long hard day? :-\ :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 06, 2013, 05:56:01 AM
You did cut it four ways and not six, didn't you?

Wadyer mean four?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 06, 2013, 05:56:58 AM
It's getting really weird Malcolm, every week another unlikely 7 button baby appears on Ebay..there may be more to this than meets the eye..have we Chansoniers been chosen as the disciples of some interstellar invasion force who have mistakenly taken the shape of 7 button babies in order to mingle with us? Or can it be the insideous affect of Pussers rum after a long hard day? :-\ :|glug

Brian's probably right on both counts.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 06, 2013, 08:13:14 AM
What amazes me is the number of wooden ones appearing - this time last year, only plastic ones were about , the Home Bargains ones at a tenner and the new E-Bay sellers also selling the red plastic ones. now there seems to be a proliferation of old stock new and used nearly new Tobar, Hero and Child Prodigy wooden ones ......... GREAT .

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 06, 2013, 11:04:55 AM
Where did you find the 'nearly new' ones Adam?Got to get another one for the bellows in order to double up the bellows of Mk2...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 06, 2013, 02:23:31 PM
Mine was an old & Boxed but never used . the other Tobars seem to be the same. I don`t like the idea of double bellows, I get the idea they`ll be too stiff for the centre joint and the air increase not as much as would be with decent ones

Plastic ones are ideal for taking bellows from, shame to waste wooden ones just for that.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 06, 2013, 04:03:52 PM
Agree that it's a shame to waste a wooden baby when a plastic one would answer for bellows scavenging. As for double bellows being too stiff? I have'nt found that to be the case and I've used mine extensively, in fact I'm beginning to be a little concerned as the babies get played more than the 1040's because I'm an idle sod and find they take much less effort to play!Comming to whether the air increase being 'not as much as decent ones'. Well, I really could'nt say as I could never afford 'decent' bellows and certainly do'nt have Nick's skills to make them. I can say however that double bellows definately increase the capacity and improve the playability no end... :||: (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 06, 2013, 05:14:30 PM
I was looking at the meagre amount of fold-ness of the bellows and how much more air a double set would bring , also the native stiffness of them .. I didn`t realise (or had forgotten) you had a double-bellows one already and that it worked .. :) .......

Yup on the laziness, these things are great for a box to grab and also in un-fettled condition make you appreciate the real boxes in the armoury, playing the Lilly after a session on the unfettled "Chanson" is rather like driving Trabant then jumping into an Aston Martin ;D .. I`ll have to get Mike to turn this one into a "Trabant RS-Cosworth"

EDIT - I forgot to add - there are a few Closet "Chansoneers" on Melnet, one who shall remain nameless gave me a decent tune on his unfettled Wooden one not long ago ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 06, 2013, 07:42:43 PM
Another thing..once the little buggers have been fitted with Hohner reeds they make pretty much as much noise as a 1040 and their reaction [bet there's a proper melodeon term for that] is so quick and easy that they could wean a chap off his 'proper' boxes. I still maintain that I am the only bloke in the universe who's made the bellows ALMOST airtight...  :||: 8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on March 06, 2013, 08:13:17 PM
Hi Brian, Adam, Nick and all,

A couple of comments - first off, I found that doubled-up bellows, as Brian fitted to his Chanson in C, really did work. Brian told me he had done this 'doubling-up' before he sent me the instrument, and I have to admit I was a tad sceptical. But to my surprise they functioned really well - the doubled-up unit works exactly as if it was 'made that way' - there's no tendency to snake/deform or sag. The additional air/bellows movement makes the instrument much more playable. Not only is there more air, there's less 'spring' to work against - with a single set, the bellows always seem to be pulling the instrument in or pushing it out.

Next point  -whatever Brian does to those bellows in terms of applying PVA really does make them seal. I reckon he should be asked to explain in detail how he does this and which precise make/brand of glue he is using ....

Finally - (and here I first take my hat off to Nick and others constructing genuine bellows and say bravo!) - Finally, for me, there is something insanely appropriate in those plastic bellows ...  I'm sure if I was sent a Chanson with well-made, genuine bellows I'd be the first to say "Oh yes, this is the absolute Dog's Wotsits - this is JUST what these instruments deserve ..."

But in the meantime - I love the plastic - it's part of the impact when you flip one of these out of your pocket in a session and blow everyone away!

As Brian would say  - what Larks, Pip!

cheers to all the Chansoniers!

Mike
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 06, 2013, 08:23:18 PM
Thanks Mike . Snaking and splitting in the middle were my two main concerns of the double bellows, great to see they work well ...... Brian needs to start coughing up detailed information about the corner sealing and bellows joining  ;D ..
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 06, 2013, 09:11:07 PM
Oh Adam! If only there was some detailed information to impart!Bellows sealing. Take one Chanson, suspend it by its bass strap.Tie a book [I suggest 'Accordeon Crimes', Annie Proulx, nice and weighty] to the right hand end to keep the bellows at full stretch. Apply a HEAVY coat of builders grade PVA right into the gussets with a stiff artist brush, 1/2 inch max size. This is a balldrawing task.Do it again 24 hours later. You will hate me by the time you are half way through. Leave for 48 hours.Bellows joining. Cut the bellows frame from the donor bellows, leaving the fold that was attached to the frame intact. Ease the original bellows from the right hand of the box. The glue comes away fairly easily. A heat gun may help. Clean up that fold with abrasive paper, gently. Coat both of these folds with a good impact adhesive, leave until touch dry then force them together. The PVA will have sealed the corners PROVIDING you worked the PVA well into the gussets.Leaving the PVA'd bellows suspended over a radiator is good joss. Glue the the extended bellows back to the box. Phew...Should have said that I glue the bellows together leaving the original bellows on the box before PVA ing.. :Ph  Microbot will vouch for this... ::)




Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 06, 2013, 09:26:44 PM
Forgot to mention [ Sorry Mike ] the PVA I use is Cementone 'Rendabond'.We use it in the building trade diluted 5/1 as an admixture to mortar mixes to help with adhesion [ rendering over tiles etc ] DO'NT dilute it for bellows sealing! What larks Pip... :Ph
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 07, 2013, 07:49:59 AM
Thanks Brian ....... I`ll get a plastic one for when I wreck the 1st bellows  ::)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 07, 2013, 08:13:26 AM
Just having a thought here .
I thinking that gluing  one of the ends to the bellows is not such a good idea, especially if you needed to get to the reeds at any time. So I'm considering making two wooden ends for the bellows and then with gaskets clipping the whole instrument together  the same way as the early Hohners.
  What say you gang?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 07, 2013, 09:18:06 AM
 I've been working on this one Nick; making the bellows frames out of ply would'nt be too hard if you made one layer that coresponded with the outside dimensions of the box and another layer that corresponded with the inner dimensions and glued the two together sandwich fashion. This would save a lot of router work.....where will it all end Pip? ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Theo on March 07, 2013, 09:31:27 AM

I thinking that gluing  one of the ends to the bellows is not such a good idea, especially if you needed to get to the reeds at any time. ....

  What say you gang?

Castagnari have been gluing the bass end of the bellows for years on their compact models Lilly, Tommy and Benny.  The bass reeds in these models are all on blocks and secured with screws.  All that is needed to remove the blocks is a longish screwdriver.  If the reeds were waxed in then it is a different matter.  There is a saving of weight and bulk by doing away with bellows fixings at one end.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 07, 2013, 09:46:21 AM
Thanks Theo, it's a bit more difficult to get to the bass reeds on a 'Chanson' if you've glued two sets of bellow together but I'm sure it's possible. Solve a problem make a problem... ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 07, 2013, 09:53:56 AM
Quote
Castagnari have been gluing the bass end of the bellows for years on their compact models Lilly, Tommy and Benny. 

The Chanson has the bass/chord reeds on removable pans so no issue with the standard box but I appreciate Brians issue with the two bellows glued together .. the answer of course is to get the bass end "MicroBotted" before the double bellows mod  :P
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Theo on March 07, 2013, 10:28:24 AM
With double bellows you just need a longer screwdriver.
Simples!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 07, 2013, 11:08:51 AM
  :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 07, 2013, 11:15:28 AM
With double bellows you just need a longer screwdriver.
Simples!

Yep quite right Theo, but not being a Gynaecologist I think clipping together is the way. EG. Instant access. This idea is still in the planning stage and am about to put the gussets in. I don't have a jig so will have to find some method of pulling the bellows apart ( not literally of course, but anything can happen in the next half hour )
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 07, 2013, 12:03:45 PM
I think clipping together is the way. Instant access. This idea is still in the planning stage and am about to put the gussets in. I don't have a jig so will have to find some method of pulling the bellows apart ( not literally of course, but anything can happen in the next half hour )

 ::) Perhaps as well that he isn't a gynaecologist from the sound of it!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 07, 2013, 02:22:39 PM
Quote
::) Perhaps as well that he isn't a gynaecologist from the sound of it!

Yeah - that much talk of Gussets and pulling things apart would worry the hardiest of patients
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 07, 2013, 03:46:04 PM
Quote
::) Perhaps as well that he isn't a gynaecologist from the sound of it!

Yeah - that much talk of Gussets and pulling things apart would worry the hardiest of patients

Well I pulled it apart and it ain't twins. Yet!    Cutting and paring the gussets now
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 09, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Gluing the gussets in is the pits
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 09, 2013, 12:35:30 PM
Take one pain in the arse and multiply it by 68 and you'll know what I'm at.
All the work so far though cannot be abandoned.
I throw my hat down to people like Bob Tedrow who makes it all seem so easy.
I have all the tools all the knowledge (of dealing with these materials)  but this is something else.
Wish me luck gang.
 Remember the old song " When Father papered the parlour" ? You should see my workshop!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 09, 2013, 01:12:25 PM
.''....the kids were stuck to the ceiling and muvver was stuck to the floor;you've never seen a fambily so stuck up before...... ''   I think my age is begining to show ... (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 09, 2013, 01:25:29 PM
Sorry to see you in so much pain Nick..I on the other hand am doing that weird thing where you jump up in the air and click your heels together having received 7 button baby Mk2 back from the sainted Microbot,full of Hohner reeds in D.I'm wondering whether to extend/double up on the bellows with this one;it seems to work perfectly well as it is...mind you, I can only play Lesters 'Mr and Mrs Micky Mouse' at present as it has taken over my brain and the 50 or so tunes I've learnt since July seem to have been obliterated.[Teach me to play one tune for 40 minutes at my age] Any way, Mk2 plays wonderfully...can't put the little bugger down... :||: :||: :||: ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 09, 2013, 01:33:17 PM
Excellent Brian. It's just as well I haven't got the reed blocks back from Martyn White yet. Even when I finish the bellows, I still have to work on the air button. That's when Malcolm Bebb comes into play, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 17, 2013, 05:21:47 PM
Hot glue is really the "bees Knees" everything just moulds into place, which covers up a lot of sloppy workmanship. For best instructions the Bob Tedrow website  is the biz.
Although he describes how to make Concertina bellows his method is very adaptable for Melodeons.
  An update on my bellows. Ugh! Still putting those gussets in , there seems to be no end to it, a bit like filling envelopes in thousands and sent to no one. BUT I'll get there and keep you posted.

PS if anyone wants to know how to set up a hot glue pot for next to nothing, just PM me.
Likewise if you are close enough, you'd be welcome to come and visit.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 17, 2013, 06:03:06 PM
Is that hot glue as in pearl glue, or in glue gun/melty/stringy sticky to fingers (ouch!) stuff?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 17, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Ive been playing my 7 button babies on and off all day today,and can't see enough difference in playing the C with double bellows and the D with single bellows.....perhaps I'm not very sensitive ? Perhaps I'm really really really great with the air button...? I've got a donor box for a bellows transplant if it proves necessary, one of those with exterior pallets. This box is the shodiest most 'orrible one I've ever stumbled across, pallet arms silly fragile, most of the reeds unplayable and came with a busted wrist strap. >:(  Does'nt really matter I know as its all about organ donation, but some poor sap will buy one for his kid and put him off for life....Nick, I get a picture of micky Mouse in the Sorcerers Apprentice when I thing of you and the Great Bellows Project.. >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 18, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Is that hot glue as in pearl glue, or in glue gun/melty/stringy sticky to fingers (ouch!) stuff?

Pearl glue Malcolm, I find the glue gun stuff goes off too quickly.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 18, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
 
Ive been playing my 7 button babies on and off all day today,and can't see enough difference in playing the C with double bellows and the D with single bellows.....perhaps I'm not very sensitive ? Perhaps I'm really really really great with the air button...? I've got a donor box for a bellows transplant if it proves necessary, one of those with exterior pallets. This box is the shodiest most 'orrible one I've ever stumbled across, pallet arms silly fragile, most of the reeds unplayable and came with a busted wrist strap. >:(  Does'nt really matter I know as its all about organ donation, but some poor sap will buy one for his kid and put him off for life....Nick, I get a picture of micky Mouse in the Sorcerers Apprentice when I thing of you and the Great Bellows Project.. >:E


 ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 18, 2013, 04:33:34 PM
More gussets and more gussets. Is there no end to this?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 18, 2013, 05:44:45 PM
Probably not. How many folds do you have?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 19, 2013, 08:04:38 AM
Probably not. How many folds do you have?

Seventeen Malc.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 19, 2013, 01:03:06 PM
Seventeen... The term "self inflicted" comes to mind.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 19, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
 
Seventeen... The term "self inflicted" comes to mind.

 :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on March 21, 2013, 08:45:37 PM
How's the origami shaping up Nick? >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 22, 2013, 06:23:18 AM
How's the origami shaping up Nick? >:E

Surprisingly well Brian, nearly finished the gussets. I haven't used a jig as Bob Tedrow does and I should have done, I'm putting each one in by hand, fingers inside and moulding the gusset on top.
It's a very slow process and boring.Glad I don't have to work on a production line.
  Should be finished next week.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 22, 2013, 11:10:47 AM
You`ll have to give us a timescale in hours of manufacture.. seems to have taken ages .... Well, there`s loads of us who`d like them too  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 22, 2013, 03:53:48 PM
You`ll have to give us a timescale in hours of manufacture.. seems to have taken ages .... Well, there`s loads of us who`d like them too  >:E

That's a good question Adam.
There's lots of time that can't be added to the end figure. For instance, drying time, time in the press,
Walking up and down smoking how do I get out of that time, learning curve time etc. Plus the fact that I've also been up in London working, where I used the bandsaw, and wrecking MK1. The band saw is the most difficult part of the operation. It takes a couple of minutes to cut the angles (which aren't critical) if you cut right through, It's back to the beginning.
  SO.  How long would it take?
Assuming you have all the equipment and materials to hand and you worked full time , that is, complete each operation BEFORE knocking off to go up the pub. I reckon about 8 to 10 hours would do it. With a jig to place the gussets and with the benefit of hindsight, probably 5 hours in total.
  The Bob Tedrow strip method is brilliant. The bellows do not need to be "worn in" they are ready to play when completed. Allegedly !
I'll keep you all posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 22, 2013, 10:39:49 PM
 "The bellows do not need to be "worn in" they are ready to play when completed. "

You are talking of the methods used to make good quality concertina bellows. Of course they don't need to be played in.  :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 23, 2013, 08:48:21 AM
Wow, that`s some time Nick ! . I guess you won`t want to do it again even once let alone for every Chanson hacking Melnetter out there  :o .. this needs outsourcing to a chinese company, the Scarlatti 8 bass PA had decent bellows for a £99 wooden PA with half decent reeds so they`re capable of decent bellows on budget stuff..  maybe a word with the Music room may be a possibilitym, they commissioned the Sandpiper there.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 24, 2013, 12:20:23 PM
 :-[It's true, I couldn't possibly make a set for someone else at a reasonable price. But, the satisfaction of knowing that you have made them yourself far surpasses the amount of time/effort involved.
When they are finished it's the air button thingy to concentrate on. Come on Malcolm Bebb, all tints and hips (sic).welcome.
As I have mentioned before, Martyn White is fettling proper reeds in C for the machine. The end result should be astounding.
Ho Hum! Sunday morning and back to the workshop for more gussets. Can't wait. :-[
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on March 24, 2013, 06:46:52 PM
you could do the ikea version ... making sure what you sent out contained indecipherable instructions and an allen key.
And of course ensuring the kit was one gusset short  :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 24, 2013, 08:18:24 PM
To be fair, the allen key is usually the right size.

Air button development is in hibernation pending warmer weather. So is clearing out the garage so we can get on with our planned  garage conversion.

And equally, the economics of the air button match Nick's bellows.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 24, 2013, 09:32:27 PM
you could do the ikea version ... making sure what you sent out contained indecipherable instructions and an allen key.
And of course ensuring the kit was one gusset short  :o

Lyra, if you are a gusset short I would be very pleased to send you one 8)
I have hundreds.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 24, 2013, 09:47:05 PM
Avoiding the numerous temptations to stray contained in the above post, I would be interested to know what leather you used, what thickness and how you prepared it.

Malcolm

who finds the thought of short gussets in out current weather altogether too chilly. 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on March 25, 2013, 06:23:03 AM
Well, I was semi serious - the issue, once the process itself is defined/refined is the cost of time. Unlike the mechanicals (inc air button, I'm guessing) which involve bespoke activity, bellows is - if we judge by our great leader, relatively simple and repetitive but a time sink. So the idea of a bellows kit isn't that stupid, really. I just don't think there's adequate demand to make it a paying proposition even when you add in folks like me who can get their head round the airfix kit bit but the early stages are beyond me.

Nick - if you send me a gusset I will frame it  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on March 25, 2013, 10:22:21 AM
Avoiding the numerous temptations to stray contained in the above post, I would be interested to know what leather you used, what thickness and how you prepared it.


http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Felt_Leather_Pallets.html#12 (http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Felt_Leather_Pallets.html#12)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 25, 2013, 12:04:58 PM
Thanks Lester - although I wonder if Charlie's gussets might be a trifle generous for a Chanson... On this occasion, since Nick has a leather background,  ::), I was rather more interested in the detail of his method.

I would have thought that cutting and skiving the gussets would be almost as mind-numbing as fixing them, if he made his own.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 25, 2013, 01:53:49 PM
Gussets, oh gussets.
 OK.The leather I use is something called Alum Tawed. It's about the thickness of a heavy J. Cloth but that's not the reason I'm using it. Any leather will do, if you want your bellows to last for ever then go down the bookbinding track with the quality etc. I think Charlie's product is more for repair and possibly too big for the Chanson.
  I cut a strip with shears about an inch wide  the length of the skin and then cut it into four pieces at approx. one and a half inches. Now here comes the tricky bit. Taking a paring knife, pare the leather down 'til you can almost see through it. Damp it slightly ( for days I've been using lick and what with me new teeth can hardly speak. Don't start Pikey)
Using PVA  mould the gusset into the little open triangle and make sure it's well seated. You Don't need to be too accurate at this stage, diamond shapes etc because you are going to cover this up at a later stage.
Only six by four left to do, what's that?....yep 24 more bloody Gussets.
Lyra, if you really want one I'll supply the frame myself!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: an bosca ceoil on March 25, 2013, 06:32:19 PM
Thanks Lester - although I wonder if Charlie's gussets might be a trifle generous for a Chanson... On this occasion, since Nick has a leather background,  ::), I was rather more interested in the detail of his method.

I would have thought that cutting and skiving the gussets would be almost as mind-numbing as fixing them, if he made his own.

I find it quite difficult to visualise Nick "moulding the the gussets into the little open triangles" without the aid of a stretcher/box jig to keep the bellows expanded.
I can assure you both, and anyone else contemplating building bellows, that the "diamonds" Charlie supplies would be suitable, and not just for repairs.
They are relatively uniform in thickness and can be used without the need for any further skiving.
Size does not present a problem (unless too small) because any excess is either trimmed off after gluing or concealed under the lining.
Whole job can be completed within a couple of hours, albeit with the loss of some job satisfaction ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 26, 2013, 06:11:21 AM
I agree with the above and yes I should have used a jig/stretcher. I am holding the bellows open by hand and when leather is damp and sticky it moulds beautifully.
By the way, I have heard of pneumatic leather but must admit I don't know what this is.
   Years ago I restored a Player Piano ( for fun you understand ) and for the individual bellows,one per key I bought some sort of rubberised fabric. It was very tough and thin and certainly didn't need paring. It was very durable and could be an alternative. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 26, 2013, 02:14:46 PM
As an Interlude - you could grab yourself a Harlequin version of this box
The Auction says "Made in Germany" but meant Bought in Germany

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kids-colourful-musical-concertina-/130877049491?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item1e78e14a93

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 26, 2013, 03:26:41 PM
As an Interlude - you could grab yourself a Harlequin version of this box
The Auction says "Made in Germany" but meant Bought in Germany

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kids-colourful-musical-concertina-/130877049491?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item1e78e14a93

Gimme, Gimmie Gimmy,
WOW! Do I want one of those, HOLD FIRE Martyn, more fettlished reeds coming your way.
Or not as the case may be. Ho Hum, as Fungus would say.
 No not that Fungus, Fungus The Bogey Man. Doh!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: deltasalmon on March 26, 2013, 03:30:59 PM
This looks like the plastic model. Mine has a very similar grill and the rubber lining the grill on my is falling off just like the in the picture.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 26, 2013, 05:12:48 PM
This looks like the plastic model. Mine has a very similar grill and the rubber lining the grill on my is falling off just like the in the picture.

I think you're probably right Sean.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 27, 2013, 12:44:28 PM
Ha! Gussets are in place. Next attach the melody end plate and start the air button thingy. Keep y'all posted.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 27, 2013, 09:22:16 PM
the melody end plate

That`s GOTTA win the award for the flashiest name for a Bellows frame  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 27, 2013, 09:43:12 PM
Ha! Gussets are in place. Next attach the melody end plate and start the air button thingy. Keep y'all posted.
So - are you trebling yourself to round the corners to match the original "melody end plate", or keeping them square?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 27, 2013, 10:41:58 PM
Square, and don't start Malc.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on March 28, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
wimp  :P
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 28, 2013, 07:31:42 AM
wimp  :P

Ooh! No framed gusset for you then!
 On a serious note, it would be easy to round the corners. Using a craft knife or similar, because there is still a strip of leather to mould around the peaks and you could add metal corners. I'm not doing that, the end product looks like a house brick. Just hope it doesn't play like one.
PS  I have a machine at work called, believe it or not, a round cornering machine. Easy to use Zap Zap Zap Zap. I'm not using it, don't want to start a MK III.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 28, 2013, 04:10:53 PM
Thanks to Malcolm Bebb, hopefully here's  the progress so far.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 28, 2013, 04:13:25 PM
And no I'm not Australian! >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 28, 2013, 04:32:16 PM
Really looks the biz. Most impressed. Looking forward to seeing in the flesh.


Love to know what you were using to operate the camera.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on March 28, 2013, 06:36:30 PM
Wow - what a Job !! . Nice one !
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 29, 2013, 05:56:31 AM
http://youtu.be/YJeyWceo844
And hopefully this is them on the move.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on March 29, 2013, 09:08:54 AM
Congratulations! I hope they work as well as they look - I'm sure they will!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: MatthewVanitas on April 01, 2013, 09:48:19 PM
I wrote up a question recently on Topic: Using the 2-bass on Dorian and other modal scales? (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,11974.0.html) (Dorian being the scale, popular in Irish music, that starts on E on a D melodeon). As we noted the Amaj chord/bass on the pull isn't too conducive to the Dorian mode, Lester noted that he's considered for kicks trying out a D/Em chord/bass on a D box. Though a bit odd-sounding, it's kind of an intriguing idea since it would allow the 2-bass to be properly used for full rhythm, same as it would in Dmaj, for a very common Irish key.

As I thought on it, a Chanson would be a really suitable way to try this out, having a I/ii bass settup. Any chance anyone's already tried this (on a Chanson or a big box), or would I be the first on the board if I got a toy set up with such bass? I've owned a good handful of re-reeded toys (often still called "Hero" on this side of the pond, though I don't see them much sold by that name these days). I might have to be making a call down to a reedworking buddy about taking this one on...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on April 01, 2013, 10:50:00 PM
Almost everything else has been done to the 7 button baby by us Chansonistas, but I think you will be the first to Dorianise one Matt... ::)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: MatthewVanitas on April 01, 2013, 11:08:30 PM
Almost everything else has been done to the 7 button baby by us Chansonistas, but I think you will be the first to Dorianise one Matt... ::)

Wait, do the rolled eyes mean that this is already common practice and I didn't read enough old threads, or that it's a silly idea?  ;)

It seems worth a shot; I'm thinking to stick with 1st button start like I have on my current Hero/Chanson; since I know a lot of these Irish tunes via tinwhistle anyway I don't tend to think about them going below the root D.

Before I ping my reed buddy to see when he might have a chance to do a re-reed, does anyone have any recommended changes to the following concept?

- Get a wood-body celluloid covered model; here in the US I think the solid-colored ones tend to be pure plastic and the marbleized coated wood.
- Have the right hand reeded in D, equal temperament, I'm thinking just M since I like the clean sound, but don't know if I should go for MM with a slight wet, since I might theoretically be using bass/chord a lot more freely on this one than my current (need more right-hand volume to compete?), where I currently use the left hand very little at all for Irish.
- Left hand, D5 chord on push, E5 chord on pull? I kind of like root-fifth chords, though it probably matters less here since it's not like I'll ever be playing a Dmin or Emaj chord on a D one-row.

I'm getting interested in this now; I've been messing with one-row on and off for five years now in drips and drabs, but been a really right-handed player due to my melodic background, but I could see having an E Dorian rhythm section could be a lot of fun, and just scads of Irish tunes have nothing but Em-D-Em-D over and over again in the back, as befits a modal styling.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 04, 2013, 01:40:09 PM
http://youtu.be/5N1YfUGBJ-o
Ok Gang, here's the latest , AND gusetts.
Should've started this vid at the outset , sorry but have only just learned how to put this up on  you tube.
 Might even hear me play one day !
Eat you're heart out Lester  ;D ;D ;D (ftp://;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on April 04, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
So - fully gusseted?

Can't wait for the next instalment...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 04, 2013, 10:40:54 PM
Brilliant idea, would certainly go with the bulldog clips on MK III , if that ever happens (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 10, 2013, 12:10:17 PM
OK, the last stage coming up. I was going to spray the bellows black just for effect and use Rexine for the ridges.
Anyway I have changed my mind, I SHALL use leather it's a damn sight easier to stick. Rather than paint them black ( this was instead of papering patterns on the ridges)  SO. I'm thinking of colouring them with a glitter paint of some sort. Whatever it is it needs to be outrageous .
   Any suggestions folks ?
 Another video to follow shortly by the way.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on April 11, 2013, 08:02:39 AM
Hmmmmmm, I`d use flowery paper and an odd coloured Italian ridgey bellows tape .... glitter will make all your hard work look like a Blue Peter project for 6yr olds  :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 11, 2013, 08:34:47 AM
Oddly enough Adam that's basically the effect I am after. A stupid little toy that when played will blow all Melodeonisters socks off because of its sound quality.
 I might be wrong here and all opinions are welcome .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on April 11, 2013, 08:49:57 AM
Glitter is bad news. Gets everywhere. Consider some tacky kiddies wrapping paper from Tesco?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 11, 2013, 09:08:04 AM
Nice one Malcolm
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on April 12, 2013, 07:38:56 AM
Or that psychodelic Chrome look wrapping paper  ;D ..
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 12, 2013, 08:11:31 AM
I think that would be great Adam (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on April 20, 2013, 11:02:58 AM
You've seen Nick when he's having a bad bellows day, but here he is in a happier moment. (Mind you, that's not how I'd contemplate wearing me shreddies...)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 20, 2013, 08:24:00 PM
Love it. Next vid coming up shortly.
              ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on April 21, 2013, 05:23:51 PM
You've seen Nick when he's having a bad bellows day, but here he is in a happier moment. (Mind you, that's not how I'd contemplate wearing me shreddies...)

How did you manage to get that private picture of Pikey?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 01:11:31 PM
 'kind of update or perhaps just an observation....When Microbot returned my Chanson [actually a Child Prodigy ] with Hohner reeds in D, I decided not to double up on the bellows as I had with the uprated C box, but after a short while it nearly drove me nuts. A disillusioned child donated a suitable donor box and an afternoon in the shed saw it uprated. But here's the thing.I never got round to PVAing the gussets as I had on the C box and I do feel the odd puff from the bellows but it plays as well as as the C box which is still pretty leak proof. I'm guessing the large capacity bellows allow for the leaks......
 :||: :||: :||: :Ph ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on May 06, 2013, 01:20:50 PM
I`ve (hopefully) got another one coming, a Child Prodigy also n the nicer rarer blue colour (which I`m hoping will fade to Paolo grey - LOL) , the bellows on my current red wooden one are far better than the new plastic one I had so I`m hoping the Prodigy one will be also , I`ll have a go at the double bellows idea, any pointers on best way to join them ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 01:56:20 PM
Hi, Adam, I prise the bellows from the base end of the box I intend to keep, then cut one fold off the bellows so as to have a clean surface, then clean up the base end I removed the bellows from. This leaves me with the treble end with the bellows attached. I then cut the donor bellows off the donor and glue one end to the base end of the box to be modified with commercial Evostick. After about 10 minutes I carefully glue the two sets of bellows together. Make sure the red patern sides abut each other or it will look weird, I know from bitter experience...... :|bl :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 02:00:41 PM
PS. Don't worry if you cock up the first time, just cut another fold off and start again.O f course you can't do that too often or you'll be back where you started...... ;D


Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on May 06, 2013, 02:20:32 PM
Thanks Brian - LOL - I can see me ending up with less folds than new !
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 06, 2013, 02:29:14 PM
I would suggest Araldite as the fixative. That would be almost in possible to pull apart and you won't need  to unfix it as a long screwdriver can remove the reeds, this has been said before.
On my home front, Martyn has finished the quality reeds. The bellows are almost finished, I just need to ad some decoration. After that, and a strap fitted I think I'm ready to unleash the beast to the world and entertain enough four year olds for a lifetime  >:E
I'm glad it's not ready yet, I wouldn't want J.K. casting his eye over it.
Keep up the fascinating work Gang, it' all very exciting.

PS, I've still got the bloody air button to sort out. MALCOLM BEBB???? :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 02:51:25 PM
Adam, you have a lot more experience with boxes then I have so have a go at this....my two 7 button babies are loud, very nimble and quick and quite honestly much more zippy and satisfying to play  than my 1040's. I can do almost as much with 7 buttons as I can with 10, and I find I have to force myself to get the big boys off the shelf. Is there an up market version of the Chanson with superior build quality and the wondrous Hohner sound.? The little ones I've heard on Melnet are a tad squeaky... :-\



?
 

   





Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 03:06:53 PM
Hi Nick, hate to disagree with a man with a prawn on his nose, but impact adhesive is tops in my experience; if the two surfaces are allowed to dry for 10 minutes I doubt if anything would shift them; no clamps are required and ordinary hand pressure does the trick. Anyway, I was forced to enter several public houses in and around Padstow in search of a man attached to a giant prawn to no  avail .
It made me so dizzy that my bossy but caring daughter had to drive me home....... :|glug :|glug :|bl









 



Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on May 06, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
Adam, you have a lot more experience with boxes then I have so have a go at this....

It's funny really - I do cosmetics (celluloid & wood), waxing, valves, reed repairs (when they`re stuck or catching) fixing mechanics (including Stradella mechs, though unwillingly), pallet facings, sealing inside and out (which is my speciality, I hate leaks and have learned to seal the leakiest of boxes) and have done loads of "de-botching" (undoing "Repairs" done by others) but things I don`t mess with are Bellows folds and whole box tuning , only simple stuff there like corners loose, individual tapes and the odd sour note - That`s what Lester (Hohners) and Theo (Expensive Italian stuff) are for  8)  ....... Chanson?, could be a First :D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 06, 2013, 03:27:04 PM
Have I done something wrong? Everything I've posted today has post, modify REMOVE with a red cross...Crikey... :-[
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 06, 2013, 04:14:37 PM
Have I done something wrong? Everything I've posted today has post, modify REMOVE with a red cross...Crikey... :-[

Nothing appears wrong to me Brian.  Sorry to have missed you on Wednesday. Stein nicked the Flugalprawn, managed to get it back with the help of some sort of red tarpaulined animal called Wee Oss.
As for the glue, I can't fault what you are saying, there are so many brilliant adhesives out there today.
  Can't wait to see and hear our new Chansons when they are ready.  Albert hall anyone?
Title: How Chansons Differ
Post by: Adam-T on May 11, 2013, 11:37:54 AM
My Blue Chanson arrived Today so I have Two wooden ones now :) ..

I thought it maybe useful to start an identification system if poss for these toy melodeons as they Differ slightly in construction .......... I`ve had three in total . all had regular buttons/pallets rather than the open type

1:- Brand new Home Bargains (Nameless) , plain Red , Plastic ends, Bellows frame, grille, fingerboard, pallets, Bass Plate and reedblocks - the actual Chanson badged models are like this too - the Hohner ones are the same but are transparent plastic.

2:- Tobar boxed (Nameless), Celluloid Red, Wood ends, Wood fingerboard, Wood Pallets, aluminium & Celly grille  ---- Plastic Bellows frames, bass plate and reedblocks

3:- Child Prodigy Boxed (Nameless),  Celluloid Turq/blue , Wood ends, Wood Bellows frames, Wood fingerboard, Wood Pallets, aluminium & Celly grille  ---- Plastic bass plate and reedblocks

I like version 3 the best as it`s easier to glue/seal cardboard bellows to Wood than plastic bellows frames and it`s not boring red ..........

Anyone have other material combinations ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 11, 2013, 03:47:02 PM
The Child Prodigy, out of the three I've Frankenstein'ed seems to have the best build quality, although how that can be I really can't say as they mostly look as though they're made by the same factory. The Child Prodigy bellows  I joined together on the last enterprise barely leaked [see previous post] so I didn't bother with PVA in the gussets, while the Tobar one leaked like a fish net .And going off piste for a moment, please someone tell me why on the top left of the page where it says Quote, Modify and Remove I get a red cross on Remove......?? ???





 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 11, 2013, 03:48:26 PM
I mean Top Right Of The Page... :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on May 11, 2013, 03:58:06 PM
I think it's just an icon - it's your post, you can do any of those things with it. Or to it.

So the X is just the standard windows close icon. Mine have exactly the same, but only (I believe) when I view them. So on yours they are only visible to you.

Try a post in the Sandbox then play with them.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 11, 2013, 04:18:17 PM
.Thanks Malcolm, I was a bit concerned that I may have deviated from the true path.... story of my life... :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 12, 2013, 12:59:12 PM
.Thanks Malcolm, I was a bit concerned that I may have deviated from the true path.... story of my life... :|bl

Join the club matey >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Earbrass on May 17, 2013, 04:34:40 PM
I was a bit concerned that I may have deviated from the true path.... story of my life... :|bl

Deviation IS the true path.  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 22, 2013, 09:05:55 AM
Deviation is spending months making bellows only to find that they are a centimetre  out and won't fit.
So,the deviation?  I'll go and train to be an Astronaut . It'll be easier.  :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on May 22, 2013, 10:25:47 AM
Noooo!

So, now you need to make new boxy bits, stuff in the old gubbins*, attach sooperdoop new bellowses and good to go :) simples.
Not so much a chanson, more the full 3 act opera, though.


* As you see my knowledge of melodeon engineering is coming on leaps and bounds!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on May 22, 2013, 02:30:21 PM
Just made the 'one centimetre out' cockup making an up market highly polished case for taking the 1040's out, one at a time of course..but guess what? a double bellowed Chanson fits lovely... :|bl +  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 22, 2013, 07:22:04 PM
Just made the 'one centimetre out' cockup making an up market highly polished case for taking the 1040's out, one at a time of course..but guess what? a double bellowed Chanson fits lovely... :|bl +  ;)

Smart ar.se.  ;D
 On a serious note, I can get it to work, but I'm not happy with the result. I will try again though.
In the meantime, I've been fitted for my EVA suit.  ( extra-vehicular activity ) for those who don't know NASA speak.  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on June 07, 2013, 10:13:50 PM
1040's all boxed up ready for the great shift from Devon to Brighton, but Bossy but Caring Daughter has allowed me one 7 button baby to stop me going daft.....having played it practically none stop for 10 days I'm beginning to ask myself if I really miss the 1040's as much as I thought I would. With the doubled up bellows and Hohner reeds it's a nimble little mite and a lot easier to play..... :||: (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 16, 2013, 03:24:25 PM
Oh, total disaster!
Spent a delightful morning with Martyn White yesterday. Primarily to have my newly acquired Lilliput declubbed and generally refettled.
Then out comes my Chanson for him to fit the new reed blocks. The new bellows were fine except that I have made them.......
Two mill too small  and the treble block just won't fit. This is markII remember.
OK back to the drawing board, every cloud has a silver lining ( allegedly )
I thought , well I'll need a new bellows bracket so might as well buy another Chanson. I noticed that there are two types. One just a plain red and the other a pearloid. Now my thinking is that the pearloid is still wood! I've ordered one and it will arrive tomorrow . I'll let you all what it is. There are only two left in stock by the way
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on July 16, 2013, 03:40:35 PM
Now my thinking is that the pearloid is still wood! I've ordered one and it will arrive tomorrow . I'll let you all what it is. There are only two left in stock by the way

I thought that too. I've got several of the things floating around, one to placate visiting friends' children, one as a paperweight and one which is the franken-chanson that is part way to being converted to a midi box.

I've got two red pearloid ones, one is an older one I bought second hand and that is indeed wood, the other was new - bought last year - and it is plastic with v stiff bellows and leaky everything, hence its current status as paperweight, a function it fulfills admirably.

Hope you have better luck

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: bellowpin on July 16, 2013, 04:11:54 PM
you have put in so much work making the bellows, it seems a pity to be defeated by just two millimetres.
    time to use a bit of low cunning / lateral thinking?           can the wooden reedbock be shaved a bit?
can the corners on the end of the reedblock be rounded or sanded smooth.?
  can the bellows be stretched slightly, using some sort of improvised shoe horn type contraption??
  someone out there will have a better suggestion i'm sure. we are all rooting for you. :
good luck brian.. 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 16, 2013, 04:50:08 PM
you have put in so much work making the bellows, it seems a pity to be defeated by just two millimetres.
    time to use a bit of low cunning / lateral thinking?           can the wooden reedbock be shaved a bit?
can the corners on the end of the reedblock be rounded or sanded smooth.?
  can the bellows be stretched slightly, using some sort of improvised shoe horn type contraption??
  someone out there will have a better suggestion i'm sure. we are all rooting for you. :
good luck brian..

Brian thanks for all your positive comments. In a word NO. the reed block is down to minimum . I just made the bellows too small in diameter ! The length is fine. I have made them so strong that the shoe horn route would just crack them up.. If Martyn couldn't get em in , no one could.
 But I have a cunning plan, more of which tomorrow, hopefully.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on July 16, 2013, 06:11:33 PM
Then out comes my Chanson for him to fit the new reed blocks. The new bellows were fine except that I have made them.......
Two mill too small  and the treble block just won't fit. This is markII remember.

Chanson deux mm more, then? (dah de dah de dah)

I know it sucks, but don't get too deflated. I'm sure it will blow over and your concerns for the next set will be bass-less.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on July 16, 2013, 06:16:23 PM
Oh dear Nick, you don't deserve it, being confused with me [I THINK I'm ever so slightly flattered]. Anyway. hard luck with the bellows, it's been a long hard apprenticeship for you. 1040's not yet unpacked but I can get the kids in my road dancing OK with the 7 button baby. Amazing what a couple of weeks sunshine and a nutty old man with a big moustache can do to the British mind set.... :||: (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Theo on July 16, 2013, 06:38:32 PM
Surely the answer is obvious?  Just use a coping saw to take off a few mm all round the inside of the closed bellows. Any slight air leaks will make it play exactly like the original bellows, but less stiff
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 16, 2013, 06:56:21 PM
Ha Theo! Have thought about that, but cutting anything off will make em leak even more.
 However as I said before. I have a cunning plan that should materialise tomorrow PM  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 16, 2013, 07:42:52 PM
Ha Theo! Have thought about that, but cutting anything off will make em leak even more.
 However as I said before. I have a cunning plan that should materialise tomorrow PM  8)

1:- Make new Ends for the Chanson
2:- Make new ends for the Bellows which take up the slack
3:- Sidmouth is coming up soon, see if Tubby Reynolds is there and lend it to him (water will fix it);D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 16, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Ha Theo! Have thought about that, but cutting anything off will make em leak even more.
 However as I said before. I have a cunning plan that should materialise tomorrow PM  8)

1:- Make new Ends for the Chanson
2:- Make new ends for the Bellows which take up the slack
3:- Sidmouth is coming up soon, see if Tubby Reynolds is there and lend it to him (water will fix it);D

B...strd  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 18, 2013, 10:06:23 AM
Ok good news and bad news.
Good news, the outer shell of the pearloid box IS wood. Bad news. The plates that hold the reed blocks on are now hardboard and the bellows end plate is plastic. I think though that the pearloid could be stripped to quite good effect.
I'll keep you posted on bellows MKIII  >:(  :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 18, 2013, 10:37:34 AM
The two I`ve got have plastic end plates but there`s no hardboard in there I can see - not sure what you mean by the plates which hold the reedblocks on , do you mean the Soundboards (Or Fondo) with the pallets on the other side ? .

This is the newer one of my two (has a plastic bellows frame whereas the blue one has a wood bellows frame - Plywood soundboards

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 18, 2013, 11:15:10 AM
You're right Adam, I meant the soundboards.
Also this box is not nearly as well made, not that they were in the first place. The pallets don't have tape over the top and the action has far less screws to anchor it. The reed blocks are screwed directly onto the fondo ,no little clips as in the older version.
They are definitely made in the same factory there are little pilot holes where the reed blocks used to be held down and lots of other similar bits.
PS the model you have is exactly the same as my older one.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 19, 2013, 09:29:35 AM
As most of the Chansonisters know there are three buttons on the bass side, the lower one being the air button. I find that impossible to use. So here is my cunning plan. BELL CRANKS! They are used almost exclusively for model engineering. Basically they are triangles on a central pivot. Push down with one and it pulls on the other, thereby pushing the air button up. On paper it works. In practice it might not. But as Chansonisters we are willing to try anything. (Except incest and folk dancing ) attributed to Oscar Wilde, who incidentally didn't play a melodeon. However it could have George Bernard Shaw.  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 19, 2013, 01:04:02 PM
Weird about the Reedblocks being screwed to the fondo directly Nick - even the latest 100% plastic ones have the blocks held down with tabs like the normal wooden ones ............ I think you have a very rare Chanson there ! . I hope its rare anyway, I don`t like the thought of hardboard fondos  :-[ . not even the lowest Kingenthal makers tried that ....

As for Pallets - my Tobar (the newer of the woodies) hasn`t any tape over the glue and the facing looks like adhesive foam material

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 19, 2013, 01:47:24 PM
Here it is
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 19, 2013, 05:15:38 PM
So they`ve screwed the bass reedpan direct ! ....... the Fondo looks like plywood though ...

I can`t remember how the  all plastic one`s Bass reedpan was fitted, the treble end had alloy tabs like my Tobar above (bit screwed into plastic as there was no wood in the box at all)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 20, 2013, 06:37:05 AM
So they`ve screwed the bass reedpan direct ! ....... the Fondo looks like plywood though ...

I can`t remember how the  all plastic one`s Bass reedpan was fitted, the treble end had alloy tabs like my Tobar above (bit screwed into plastic as there was no wood in the box at all)

Actually Adam the lower photo was to show the tape over the pallets, the soundboard is indeed wood. That's the older machine. The newer one has some sort of hardboard for the fondo.
The metal tabs I have added, you can see wher the reed block has been screwed.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 20, 2013, 07:33:17 AM
Wow, I`d rather plastic than hardboard for a fondo to be honest (in fact Weltmeisters current range of CBAs and PAs all have plastic bass fondos)  .... I`ve not seen the bass pallets on either of my woodies, they may have tape on too but the newer red one (the one with the plastic bellows frame) hasn`t any on the treble end .

Plastic Bass Fondo good enough for Weltmeisters £1000 ++ accordions ? .. Hmmm, they sound superb but I have my doubts over longevity, some plastics don`t age too well. , most of the bass mech is plastic too and the reedblocks are resin

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 20, 2013, 08:09:35 AM
That's very interesting, I think Chanson or whoever are making them (Tobar are importers) are now really cutting corners, the older ones really were better and could be considered a genuine child's instrument. The modern ones?   Chuck em in the river Sid I say!
Anyway,  who could resist the artwork?  :-*

PS.don't ask me why the pictures are upside down. I think I might have an Australian IPad   >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on July 20, 2013, 08:26:17 AM
I had one of those, neither branded Chanson or Hohner but essentially the same thing and same artwork.   I found a great use for it when I had some of my buddies round and one of them brought her three year old daughter who fell for the shiny plastic box  - she knew what it was having been to a few sessions and dance outs but I don't think she'd seen one her size before.

We played a few tunes in the back garden and he sat happily playing chords of her own devising while her mum played fiddle.

What else could I do but let her take it home...?  She might not be a future melodeonista but then again she just might  :|||: (:)

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 21, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
Eureka! Have just solved the air button problem. BELLCRANKS. No one is more surprised than me that it works.
Patent applied for.  8) 8) :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 21, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Fantastic ! , a lot simpler than making a new airhole and pallet -- though making a new air hole and pallet allows the air hole / button to be used for another bass reed
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 21, 2013, 10:12:44 PM
Just caught another wooden one on eBay . Six and a half quid. Plenty of spares going now.  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on July 21, 2013, 10:35:45 PM
Just caught another wooden one on eBay . Six and a half quid. Plenty of spares going now.  ;D

Nice... I spotted one at a car boot sale and couldn't resist.  Not even sure why I want it but I'm sure *someone* will find a use for it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 09:52:18 AM
Fantastic ! , a lot simpler than making a new airhole and pallet -- though making a new air hole and pallet allows the air hole / button to be used for another bass reed

Good point. But I just wanted to get rid of that third (air) button
The design comes from my youth and model aircraft days.
Now the button is where one would expect it.
May even get a tune out later today. :-X
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on July 22, 2013, 09:56:08 AM
You could rig up the spare button to a bell :P
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 03:06:57 PM
You could rig up the spare button to a bell :P

That would really make it sound better, but I was thinking something more like a detonator .  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 05:27:41 PM
Well here it is gang. Chanson MKI with BELLCRANKS air button.

http://youtu.be/OwKEW9304Mg

 ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 22, 2013, 05:38:05 PM
Great Vid Nick !!!!!!!!! . what amazes me is 1:- you`ve gone to all that trouble of building the bellows and getting the reeds fitted etc and STILL not fitted shoulder strap loops  ::) 2:- even stuffed with Hohner reeds, it Still sounds like a Chanson , OK it`s lost the famous varying trem per note / out of breath quality the stock bronze chinese reeds suffer but its still got the same timbre (Proving a case for the shell / interior design makes a box`s sound more than reeds do argument)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 05:42:59 PM
Again you're right Adam . I must say that I was disappointed with the sound when all was put together.
It must be the sound board/ fondo etc that makes the difference . I ain't finished yet mind you.  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on July 22, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
Nice one. Like the bell cranks, too. Using bell cranks to waft air through the box completely legitimises having a wafty crank, or indeed two,methinks.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 05:51:32 PM
Nice one. Like the bell cranks, too. Using bell cranks to waft air through the box completely legitimises having a wafty crank, or indeed two,methinks.

Smart A....se  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 06:45:53 PM
Well here it is gang. Chanson MKI with BELLCRANKS air button.

http://youtu.be/OwKEW9304Mg

 ;D

BELLCRANKS, sounds like a nightclub to me.
Yeah, let's go down to Bellcranks, tune a few reeds, make a set of bellows .etc etc.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on July 22, 2013, 09:10:45 PM
Nice one. Like the bell cranks, too. Using bell cranks to waft air through the box completely legitimises having a wafty crank, or indeed two,methinks.
;)  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 22, 2013, 09:14:41 PM
Yeah a Wafty crank with a Bell on ........ Hmmm, is it me or is this getting smutty  :-X
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 22, 2013, 10:04:48 PM
Yeah a Wafty crank with a Bell on ........ Hmmm, is it me or is this getting smutty  :-X

Look Matey, I was borne smutty, why do you think I am playing around with Chansons ?
 >:E >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on July 22, 2013, 10:38:35 PM
 Nick, I think that your bellows are a great wonder, and if I can ever get my nut round your bell crank idea I'll copy it ......BUT I swear my converted 7 button babies in C and D with Hohner reeds sound so much better than yours...I refer you to Microbot's playing them on Melnet before sending them back to me ..... What reeds did you have fitted? And why were you wearing my hat on Youtube? ??? :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 07:07:08 AM
Yep there's certainly something wrong Brian, I'll check with Martyn what reeds they are.
As for the hat, well the conservatory gets a lot of sunshine, and I'm thin on top, but I just forgot to take it off.   :Ph
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on July 23, 2013, 09:20:16 AM
...it still looks a lot like the one I lost / had nicked on 'obby oss day...... >:(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 09:24:45 AM
...it still looks a lot like the one I lost / had nicked on 'obby oss day...... >:(

Who on earth would nick a Chanson, unless they were Masochists  Brian?
Anyway I have an alibi, I was in Padstow that day with no BELLCRANKS
So there. >:(  :|glug  :neigh:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 09:35:29 AM
Just had a thought ( don't laugh, they are quite rare)
BELLCRANKS ?
Campanologists ?.  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Martyn on July 23, 2013, 11:11:05 AM
Yep there's certainly something wrong Brian, I'll check with Martin what reeds they are.
As for the hat, well the conservatory gets a lot of sunshine, and I'm thin on top, but I just forgot to take it off.   :Ph
The reeds I used should be ok. They were H stamped reeds from an old 1040.
Brian have your Chansons got plastic or wooden blocks?

Martyn
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 12:25:40 PM
I have a feeling that as Adam said it's something to do with shell / body size. But until Martyn has a look ,we won't know.
Heh! I hope I haven't put the Chanson blocks in by mistake. I'll just check.........
No, the reeds are brass from the second Chanson that I bought.  Thought for a moment I might have mixed them up. :o :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 23, 2013, 01:39:40 PM
You`ve got me confused there Nick - If its got brass Chinese reeds in, it will sound the same .  :o

All the Chansons I`ve seen have plastic reedblocks but I thought you used cutdown hohner reedblocks for the mod Martyn ? . Hohner reeds are too tall to go in the plastic chanson blocks unless you want to make a mess like Hector did cutting the plastic trying to fill in the gap at the top
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on July 23, 2013, 02:08:25 PM
You've got me confused now Nick; I was referring to my titfer going missing, not a Chanson. As for reed blocks, I'm not in a position to check at present but I believe the sainted Microbot [whom God preserve ] used the plastic 'as built' blocks. Perhaps he could confirm..... ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 23, 2013, 02:25:52 PM
There could be the slight chance that the company made more than one example of the aforementioned headgear - and that for some bizarre (likely subconscious) reason, it`s favoured by box players ? ....

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 03:07:07 PM
There could be the slight chance that the company made more than one example of the aforementioned headgear - and that for some bizarre (likely subconscious) reason, it`s favoured by box players ? ....

Doh! Should have read the posts properly, you're referring to the pianoma hat I presume.?  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on July 23, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Hi Brian, Adam, Nick and all,

I just copied/quoted the section below from page 7 of this very same thread, some months back... It explains I used Hohner H reeds (aluminium, probably identical to those used by Martin W) mounted on a cut-down section of a Hohner reedblock. Brian wanted a 2nd button start, and it was that, coupled with the larger reeds, that ruled out any chance of using the plastic reedblock. But I'd have favoured the Hohner 'implant' anyway, as I do not belong to the somewhat vocal group that contend that the wood/material has no bearing on sound/tone...

Nick - isn't your Chanson on You-tube in the key of G, rather than C???? On the video you comment that it's in C .... Brian's pair of Chansons are in C and D and that may explain the fuller tone.

Hi Brian, Theo, Ted and all,

I've just had Brian's Chanson in for work on the bass end. Initially it was fitted with Hohner reeds (aluminium H-type) in C with 2nd button start. This required fitting another reedblock as the original plastic one was too small, I found. A cut-down treble reedblock taken from an old 'breaker Erika' was fitted.

The result was better than either I or Brian anticipated, so now it has come back for Hohner reeds to be fitted to the bass end also.

Brian has done a lot of modifications himself - double-bellows, well-positioned brackets and a lot of skilfull 'anti-leak-work'.The end-product is a punchy little instrument with genuine tonal quality . The downside? ...."I want one", says my wife Elli .... but I suppose that's a bit cheaper than "I want one" pointing at another Preciosa!

Brian has asked me to take a photo and make a recording ... the recording is on this soundcloud link ...

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/chansonbrianc2-1

Here is the only photo I got before my camera ran out of charge....

cheers

Mike R
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 04:14:35 PM
Just put the tuner on Mike and yes they are in the key of G.
However today they sound a hell of a lot better, maybe just needed a bit of a run through. When I put that vid up I had only just put the thing together, hence no shoulder strap etc. I was more excited about the BELLCRANKS  air button working. Oh the enthusiasm, the excitement, the joy.
  Or maybe it's a case of "get a life".  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 23, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
Thanks Mike, of course it was you who did the Hohner reedblock transplant (great idea, what we need now is an aspiring reedblock maker to knock a load up) - THE most annoying thing about the Chanson, even more than the brass reeds and leaky bellows is the 1st button start as they come .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 04:25:12 PM
I suppose with the leaky bellows as they are  one doesn't need an air button at all.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 23, 2013, 04:33:15 PM
I suppose with the leaky bellows as they are  one doesn't need an air button at all.

especially as the brass reeds can`t be gapped accurately (or stay gapped anyway) so you get 9 air buttons + the real one if you open it slowly  :-\
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 23, 2013, 04:36:09 PM
I suppose with the leaky bellows as they are  one doesn't need an air button at all.

especially as the brass reeds can`t be gapped accurately (or stay gapped anyway) so you get 9 air buttons + the real one if you open it slowly  :-\

Sounds like a load of BELLCRANKS to me  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on July 24, 2013, 01:41:00 PM
Thanks Mike, of course it was you who did the Hohner reedblock transplant (great idea, what we need now is an aspiring reedblock maker to knock a load up) - THE most annoying thing about the Chanson, even more than the brass reeds and leaky bellows is the 1st button start as they come .

Hi Adam,

thanks for that - but although I wasn't aware of the fact, I wasn't the first to do this. The link below shows the great Brendan Begley knocking out polkas on a Chanson set up by Michael Usui of Irish Dancemaster Accordians.

This Usui/Begley Chanson is in D. It's bandoneon or LM set-up, with one low and one mid set of reeds. I think it's great, with a real 'bite' to the sound .... Although Michael doesn't say it, he must have used a substitute reedblock to accommodate the reed size. Make sure you watch the video to the end, where Brendan tosses the Chanson into the air, before picking up his red Paolo!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfvCxfBH7j8

I set up a D-Chanson for Brian, but that was tuned MM...

https://soundcloud.com/microbot-2/brianchansond

Michael Usui now offers upgrades to Chansons, using hand-made reedblocks, and Tipo a mano reeds; they can be in a range of keys and single-reed, MM or LM.

I've not heard one of these later upgrades but I'd be interested to..... Anyone got one?????

cheers to the Chansonistas!

Mike R
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 24, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
I`ll check those links Mike, thanks ...... I`d heard Dancemaster fettled Chansons but didn`t know they went as far as replace the reedblocks - I guessed they did a "Hector" on the old ones . I wonder what they do about the stock bellows (the worst part of the box) .

one thing I`m going to do with mine is re-face the pallets with proper stuff, they seem to be faced with some kind of self-adhesive draught excluder stuff from the factory (I`m sure that`ll fix more leaks) maybe even replace the pallets with Hohner ones . the treble mech itself works fine but I`m sure a bit of 1040 one wouldn`t hurt if it could be fitted .  I`ll take a look at reedblock gasket as well .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 02:57:40 PM
Well well well. It's just not true that " You get what you pay for" the Chanson I bought off eBay for £6.50 arrived this morning. IT'S ALL WOOD including the bass cover plate, it's nearly airtight and really quite well finished. It's from the same factory as my original Tobar because the made in China sticker is in the same place. Astoundingly it plays very well. So eat your hearts out gang. It's MINE, MINE I TELL YOU.  ;D ;D ;D 8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 24, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
My Blue one is like that - it`s even largely in tune and its blue ! . the bass plate IS plastic but the bellows frame is wood (it`s plastic on the red one) and even has celluloiud on, Did I mention it was blue .... Shame its not Grey, it`d be worth more (old Grey Chansons can fetch as much as a Tenner !!)

EDIT - I wonder if you can get a Pink one . There`s GOT to be a Hello Kitty version for a laugh (with the Kitty on the Bellows) You can get a Genuine Fender Hello Kitty Katacaster

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 03:43:45 PM
A TENNER!
Wow, that's out of my league no way could I get a posh box like that. I am on the Emmanuel melodeon making course next year though. I'll take some grey auto spray paint. That should up the value.  8)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 03:51:00 PM
My Blue one is like that - it`s even largely in tune and its blue ! . the bass plate IS plastic but the bellows frame is wood (it`s plastic on the red one) and even has celluloiud on, Did I mention it was blue .... Shame its not Grey, it`d be worth more (old Grey Chansons can fetch as much as a Tenner !!)

EDIT - I wonder if you can get a Pink one . There`s GOT to be a Hello Kitty version for a laugh (with the Kitty on the Bellows) You can get a Genuine Fender Hello Kitty Katacaster
[/quote

Oh no , don't start that lark I'm in enough trouble already with ." Why are you mucking about with those things when you should be playing?"
Hmmmmm. Now pink kitty, there's a thought. Bellows MK IV ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 03:54:29 PM
How do you tell if you have a wooden one (Chanson that is) when it's on eBay etc. I know rubber feet are a good sign, but what else?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 24, 2013, 04:32:18 PM
All of the Pearloid ones are woodies from what I can tell, I`ve yet to see or hear of a pearloid plastic one anyway - now which generation you get seems to be pot luck , there appear to be a few gens of Woodies .

1:- Wood ends, Fingerboard, Bellows frame and bass plate, Ply Fondos
2:- Wood ends, Fingerboard, Bellows frame, PLASTIC Bass plate, Ply Fondos
3:- Wood ends, Fingerboard, PLASTIC Bellows frame and bass plate, Ply Fondos
4:- Wood ends, Fingerboard, PLASTIC Bellows frame and bass plate, Hardboard Fondos

The last one a recent discovery by your good self Nick ..... I have a Type 2 (Boxed Child Prodigy) and a Type 3 (Boxed Tobar) . I think I`d rather have an all plastic one than a type 4 , Hardboard is dreadful stuff for warping and bending .


Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 04:39:23 PM
Thanks Adam, that explains a lot.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on July 24, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
Considering getting myself one of these after seeing the fun that others have had with them!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 24, 2013, 05:16:20 PM
Considering getting myself one of these after seeing the fun that others have had with them!

Welcome to the world of Chansonisters Bert
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Matthew B on July 24, 2013, 07:09:02 PM
Considering getting myself one of these after seeing the fun that others have had with them!

Well. . . . OK.  But you have to do something complicated with the layout and tuning before you play it . . .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on July 24, 2013, 08:49:29 PM
Considering getting myself one of these after seeing the fun that others have had with them!

Well. . . . OK.  But you have to do something complicated with the layout and tuning before you play it . . .

Hey Owen - I say take up the challenge and go for it!!!!

.....how about getting two Chansons and joining them together, discarding the two bass ends .... then you could have a Chanson with 7 basses  ... a sort of musical version of Dr Doolittle's famous "Push-me-pull-you"? In fact it could be called the "Press-me-draw-you"...

OR, you could even have it as a 'double-treble' end (a "Chansertina"???)

Go on - you know you want one!!!!

Mike
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on July 24, 2013, 09:38:31 PM
Chansertina -------------- LOL !!!!!!!!!!!.   ;D

It could be two row effectively - D at one end and G at the other - it`d be fun Row crossing on that!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: bellowpin on August 03, 2013, 11:47:47 AM
Again you're right Adam . I must say that I was disappointed with the sound when all was put together.
It must be the sound board/ fondo etc that makes the difference . I ain't finished yet mind you.  :'( :'(

hi nick.i can see you are a bit disappointed with the sound ,its not the hohner reeds ,it must be the chanson as you say.
     i have been giving this some thought for a while. rebuilding the sound board with better quality materials may work. not a quick or easy job. if the problem is flimsyness and lack of rigidity, i did wonder if increasing the mass (weight) might help.
       i have a toy chanson about here. it doesnt play at all well,squeecky, reluctant to speak etc. looking inside it is all plastic. the sound board is molded as part of the plastic body.
      the plastic reedblock has a groove along the top about 10mm wide,  so i found a strip of steel in the tool shed that fitted and cut it to length. this weighed about 50 grammes   and i glued it in place.
        when i tryed playing it i noticed a big improvement , the brass reeds spoke better,not needing so much air and sounded loader and clearer. the first octave were best the higher notes still seem a bit "thin".
      as a experiment it as worked.    would more weight be better still ?   could too much weight be detrimental?  i dont know, but it would be easy to mess around.
      is this any help to our nick?  could he add some weight ?   worth a try maybe.    best of luck brian.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 03, 2013, 05:13:19 PM
Again you're right Adam . I must say that I was disappointed with the sound when all was put together.
It must be the sound board/ fondo etc that makes the difference . I ain't finished yet mind you.  :'( :'(

hi nick.i can see you are a bit disappointed with the sound ,its not the hohner reeds ,it must be the chanson as you say.
     i have been giving this some thought for a while. rebuilding the sound board with better quality materials may work. not a quick or easy job. if the problem is flimsyness and lack of rigidity, i did wonder if increasing the mass (weight) might

       i have a toy chanson about here. it doesnt play at all well,squeecky, reluctant to speak etc. looking inside it is all plastic. the sound board is molded as part of the plastic body.
      the plastic reedblock has a groove along the top about 10mm wide,  so i found a strip of steel in the tool shed that fitted and cut it to length. this weighed about 50 grammes   and i glued it in place.
        when i tryed playing it i noticed a big improvement , the brass reeds spoke better,not needing so much air and sounded loader and clearer. the first octave were best the higher notes still seem a bit "thin".
      as a experiment it as worked.    would more weight be better still ?   could too much weight be detrimental?  i dont know, but it would be easy to mess around.
      is this any help to our nick?  could he add some weight ?   worth a try maybe.    best of luck brian.

Brian, great thinking, I' ll reply more fully when back from Sidmouth folk festival on Monday
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on August 04, 2013, 09:01:06 AM
What you want is stiffness, rather than weight as such. You want the soundboard to vibrate as little as possible and to be as thin as possible. That's a massive simplification, but it'll lead you to a bright and responsive instrument.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 04, 2013, 10:11:44 AM
Does that mean makers should move to carbon fibre? we did that in the X-ray industry 15 years ago, more or less the same reasons. Stiffness rather than vibration, but closely related.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on August 05, 2013, 07:54:54 AM
Possibly! People have made passable fiddles out of it, so I'm sure you could build boxes out of it. It would be an interesting experiment if anyone fancies it.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 05, 2013, 03:29:04 PM
Does anyone think that because I'm in G that the little machine is too small to cope?
The one I just bought from eBay is in C and amazingly with the original reeds it sounds better.
 Yours, confused Tonbridge Wells.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 05, 2013, 03:35:50 PM
Actually, having just played them the G has a much better sound but not the " mellowness" that I'm looking for.
Title: The Ultimate in Gross Chansons
Post by: Adam-T on August 07, 2013, 05:26:06 PM
Fancy a Chanson which is completely different ? ...... here`s the (official) "Clown Puke" version on Fleabay complete with Box with what look like the "Zombie Flesheaters" version of the Child Prodigy box print

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290957037486?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_762wt_962

Here`s the pic for when it goes after the auction ends

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Noodle on August 08, 2013, 05:35:51 AM
I now have a red celluloid wooden shell 'Child Prodigy'. I'll mull over what I could do to improve it. I have a plastic bodied modern one that I could possibly nab the bellows from when I finally get round to finishing PVAing the corners.

I wonder if this'll catch on in the same way that D/Ging Liliputs has been doing.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 08, 2013, 05:59:48 AM
I now have a red celluloid wooden shell 'Child Prodigy'. I'll mull over what I could do to improve it. I have a plastic bodied modern one that I could possibly nab the bellows from when I finally get round to finishing PVAing the corners.

I wonder if this'll catch on in the same way that D/Ging Liliputs has been doing.

I found that the air button was the biggest problem, being in the wrong place
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 08, 2013, 07:35:34 AM
I now have a red celluloid wooden shell 'Child Prodigy'. I'll mull over what I could do to improve it. I
I wonder if this'll catch on in the same way that D/Ging Liliputs has been doing.

The 2012 Liliput Craze got quite heated but then they were a quality box to begin with, the finished article could end up being costly - the great thing about the chanson thing is that they`re cheap enough for anyone to have a bash (a tenner or less) and if you wreck one, who cares - like Liliputs did last year, "Woodies" (older chansons made of wood) are coming to the surface all the time now so grab one while they`re about  :|||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 08, 2013, 09:20:39 AM
I now have a red celluloid wooden shell 'Child Prodigy'. I'll mull over what I could do to improve it. I
I wonder if this'll catch on in the same way that D/Ging Liliputs has been doing.

The 2012 Liliput Craze got quite heated but then they were a quality box to begin with, the finished article could end up being costly - the great thing about the chanson thing is that they`re cheap enough for anyone to have a bash (a tenner or less) and if you wreck one, who cares - like Liliputs did last year, "Woodies" (older chansons made of wood) are coming to the surface all the time now so grab one while they`re about  :|||:

Yep Adam's right.
The pearloid ones seem still to be made of wood. However, the soundboard  is some sort of hardboard  and should really be changed.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 08, 2013, 10:47:20 AM
[The pearloid ones seem still to be made of wood. However, the soundboard  is some sort of hardboard  and should really be changed.

In all fairness, one you have has a hardboard soundboard , it`s the only one I`ve heard of in this thread - both of mine and the ones I`ve seen pics of (including one of yours if I remember and all of Brians) have plywood ones - it would seem that although a hardboard soundboard one is something to beware of , it would appear to be thankfully rare .........

Both of mine have plastic bass plates, one has  wooden bellow frame, the other plastic - both have plywood soundboards .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 08, 2013, 11:13:44 AM
Hopefully.  :-*
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: ACE on August 14, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
I've joined the club. But only with the cheaper £4.99 Tobar. I expect I will trade up and get the £5 Chanson when I get more experienced with this one. Not a bad buy £4 carriage but £6.50 on the post office stamp. Stiff as a board so never been used.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 14, 2013, 01:56:42 PM
Actually the "real" Chansons are the ones to avoid - they`re the ones which are 99% plastic - the Tobars from the ones i`ve seen (including my own) are the Proper wood ones along with the Child Prodigy and Hero boxed ones :) ....... looks like you`ve got one of the Classics there ..

The real Collectors pieces are the "Hero Shanghai" ones , they have an open action (though there are later ones with that too) , an open action Hero Shanghai labelled one can go for as much as £15 !!!! there are rumours that they have wood reedblocks !
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on August 14, 2013, 02:07:22 PM
there are rumours that they have wood reedblocks !
    Crikey if that's the case, I want one  :D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 14, 2013, 02:21:43 PM
Me too !! . they all have cloth bellows corners sadly, even the earliest ones leak like mad so there`s no magic pill there (if there was, Nick wouldn`t have spent weeks making them) ... I`m still thinking there maybe a way to put proper metal corners on existing bellows .

Anyway after a week of waxing and valving ancient Hohners, I`m not up to hacking chanson plastic reedblocks so wood ones sound good to me . (anyone know how to get reedwax off the Cat without shaving it ?, Herself is NOT amused )
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:12:35 PM
Adam, first things first.
How to get reed wax off the cat. Take a large sheet of brown wrapping paper and a hot domestic Iron, set it to cotton temperature . Next find the cat, that's the problem.
Bellows, putting metal corners on won't help in the slightest. The leaks are coming from the diamond shaped corners, they are cloth and that's where the trouble is.
   I had this thought about buying a second hand bellows or any clapped out machine no matter what size and attaching the two Chanson ends by means of adapted end plates. Imagine, a huge bellows and tiny keyboards, have you found the cat yet?  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on August 14, 2013, 03:17:00 PM
   I had this thought about buying a second hand bellows or any clapped out machine no matter what size and attaching the two Chanson ends by means of adapted end plates. Imagine, a huge bellows and tiny keyboards, have you found the cat yet?  ;D
    I have an old PA, this thought had occured to me and I rather like the idea  :D Two small keyboards on a 120 bass bellows. Would the amount of air be too much though?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:19:59 PM
I've joined the club. But only with the cheaper £4.99 Tobar. I expect I will trade up and get the £5 Chanson when I get more experienced with this one. Not a bad buy £4 carriage but £6.50 on the post office stamp. Stiff as a board so never been used.

Ace ,welcome to CRAP (Chanson Remakers And Perserverers)
It really is addictive  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:21:52 PM
   I had this thought about buying a second hand bellows or any clapped out machine no matter what size and attaching the two Chanson ends by means of adapted end plates. Imagine, a huge bellows and tiny keyboards, have you found the cat yet?  ;D
    I have an old PA, this thought had occured to me and I rather like the idea  :D Two small keyboards on a 120 bass bellows. Would the amount of air be too much though?

Is there such a thing as too much air? And no, just don't take the bellows straps off, just have loose ones
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
Just realised from my original OP, Chanson has become a generic term for any toy melodeon.
No matter what the name, I'm pretty sure they all come from the same factory, or at least the jigs do.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on August 14, 2013, 03:25:20 PM
    Im not sure, these bellows have no external bellow straps, instead an internal hook mechanism so they fasten inside the bellows.
    Has it been done before? It would be a beast of a box. I may do it as my bellows construction is extremely slow.  :(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:30:04 PM
    Im not sure, these bellows have no external bellow straps, instead an internal hook mechanism so they fasten inside the bellows.
    Has it been done before? It would be a beast of a box. I may do it as my bellows construction is extremely slow.  :(

I really can't see (this is in theory mind you) that there would be a problem, just a minor amount of bellows opening and shutting should be ok.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on August 14, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
    Yeah I have had boxes which, when squeezed too hard, occasionally overpowered the reeds a little. Still, I shall investigate the potential, sharpen my whittling knife, prep my Dremel and Chanson the heck out of a PA set of bellows.
    (As soon as I'm done at work that is)  (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 14, 2013, 03:34:53 PM
Keep us posted Ted.
Title: Re: Chanson Pallets
Post by: Adam-T on August 20, 2013, 08:14:27 PM
I`ve finally ordered a pair of tiny strap brackets for the Chanson so wanted to choose the best one - of coruse it was the older blue one with the wood bellows frames . anyway I was comparing the pallets and they`re shaped like Hohner ones and have the tape over the glue and are straight wheres the slightly later red one (plastic bellows frame but rest wood - Tobar) had cruder pallets which were also cruder fitted .... have a look .......
you can also see that the Blue one has ONE of the cruder pallets , almost as if the rest were desitned for a more expensive box but they ran out of crude ones so had to use them ..

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 22, 2013, 05:16:14 PM
Adam, what strap brackets did you order? Did you get them from Charlie CJM music ? If so what was the code number?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 22, 2013, 05:24:52 PM
Here are the Brackets - number 042A , £2.50 a pair From Charlie .. small clip on Camera bag straps work great with Chansons on these brackets..

I`ve made the red one Single reed by blanking off the second reedbank - I`m looking into the best way to put full size reeds in, Hector's bodge looks a bit hit and miss

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Martyn on August 22, 2013, 05:29:32 PM
Nick,
The D-ring brackets are probably the most suitable. If you want some I have a bag of them.

Martyn
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 22, 2013, 05:41:56 PM
Nick,
The D-ring brackets are probably the most suitable. If you want some I have a bag of them.

Martyn

Brill Martyn, I'll be in touch.  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on August 22, 2013, 10:23:27 PM
Just thought I ought to mention  this one  ;D (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181196389270?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on August 23, 2013, 09:54:18 PM
It's the first two row Chanson I've ever seen Malcolm.......it looks rather lovely...I think I almost want one..... Over the last few months I've found that playing my 1040's has become more difficult, a combination of old plated fractures to my radius and ulna and what I suppose is arthritis makes what was once a joy just plain bloody painful. :'( However, what started as a fun enterprise amongst we Chansonistas has turned out to be one of the best enterprises I've ever involved myself in. My two, in C and D with double bellows[ and Hohner reeds by Microbot] are so easy on my creaky arm  that playing is completely pain free and an hours squeezing is no problem. 10 minutes on a 1040 does me in... Huzza for the little 'Chanson'! What larks Pip!  :||: (:)   
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 24, 2013, 07:46:40 AM
Chanson is just a word the Chinese factory use on boxes, it`s more often seen on PAs than melodeons - that box is usually seen with Scarlatti or Stephanelli on it in the UK - there`s a posh version with Italian reeds and a bass stop called the Scarlatti Nero (Quint tuned) and Rosso (B/C)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 24, 2013, 08:27:15 AM
Chansonisters rule,  ;D
 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 24, 2013, 08:40:04 AM
Has anyone got info on best way to mod the plastic reedblocks to take normal sized reeds (such as Hohner) ? .

BTW - regarding your box with the Hohner reeds (Nick ?) and it still sounding like a Chanson -  I tried a brass reed from a chanson in a Scarlatti 12 bass accordion (tuned to suit of course) and it didn`t sound much different from the chinese steel one already there - a tiny bit warmer in tone maybe but once it was all back together , you`d not know so it would seem that the traditional Vowely sound of the Chanson will always be with us, UNLESS Mike`s wooden reedblock mod changes the tone ..

Hohner reeds of course will make the thing far more efficient and faster responding if gapped right - for the record, the efficiency of the Brass chanson reed I tried in the accordion was no more or less efficient than the stock steel ones - Brass of course goes out of gap easier but less likely to snap like a steel one .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 24, 2013, 08:52:31 AM
No reason why the plastic blocks can't be exchanged for wooden ones, but I'm not sure that's the answer . I think MY problem is that they are in the key of G and in a tiny space maybe that's wrong.
The reeds are good quality Hohner HH( I think) or maybe H and are expertly fitted.
Martyn White would know, but I think wooden reed blocks would have to be made from scratch, and that ain't cheap!
 Perhaps we should be looking at the sound board. Bit like a Stradivari , it was all to do with the wood AND varnish.  :-\
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on August 24, 2013, 10:44:27 AM
Here are the Brackets - number 042A , £2.50 a pair From Charlie .. small clip on Camera bag straps work great with Chansons on these brackets..

I`ve made the red one Single reed by blanking off the second reedbank - I`m looking into the best way to put full size reeds in, Hector's bodge looks a bit hit and miss

Just noticed Adam, you've used cruciform screws ( Phillips) well it is a modern instrument I suppose.  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on August 24, 2013, 11:29:11 AM
I used the screws which Charlie supplied - all the screws in the box are philips so they match
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Microbot on September 01, 2013, 01:15:36 PM
Hi Nic, Brian and 'les Chansoneers' ...

Don't miss out on this model ... it's essential for that ever-popular Morris tune,'Concert Billy...'

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161098211087?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D161098211087%26_rdc%3D1

cheers!

Mike R
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: EastAnglianTed on September 01, 2013, 01:28:49 PM
Hi Nic, Brian and 'les Chansoneers' ...

Don't miss out on this model ... it's essential for that ever-popular Morris tune,'Concert Billy...'

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161098211087?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D161098211087%26_rdc%3D1

cheers!

Mike R


Schlling Constantina

Red in Color All function work.

Constantina?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Don't think the seller has a Scooby (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 01, 2013, 01:52:47 PM
Thanks for that Mike, but HOW MUCH!!!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on September 01, 2013, 04:28:36 PM
More than a shilling. P&p is forty quid!
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 03, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
Martyn White has just sent some D rings. Well fitted in minutes and I've used an old tie for the strap.
However, what worries me is the notes he included for fitting.
   " Take a Chanson and attach it firmly to the D ring on the top. There is no need to attach the bottom one. Find an old tie preferably one that everyone laughs at and attach it to the top D ring.
If you have trouble  with this you can phone our Kelp line on 01203..... Etc.
Having affixed your Chanson it is now time to put it to the test .
Place some salmon paste inside the bellows and gently lower it into the sea. WAIT A FEW MINUTES.
Gradually raise the Chanson and hopefully you will have a Crabb, and now called a Chansontina"
Welcome to Swanage everyone. >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on September 13, 2013, 10:38:55 PM
Nick - and his Chanson - having achieved notoriety, now achieved fame.

In the bar of the Red Lion, at Swanage, he's busy trying to move some unsuspecting singers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcHUJWWrTg8) (Derek) over to the dark side, in a small way, to a rapturous audience (well, Kitty) with some help from Bourne River Morris men. After a fashion.

PS Actually that was quite brave - or foolhardy - he's playing an instrument in the singers' bar.

PPS Don't show this to our foreman. Those lines are quite straight. He might get ideas.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on September 14, 2013, 07:09:06 AM
That`s brilliant ! , My chanson is way too wheezy and stiff to play that even without bass, shows the custom bellows did the trick !
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on September 14, 2013, 07:32:44 AM
That`s brilliant ! , My chanson is way too wheezy and stiff to play that even without bass, shows the custom bellows did the trick !

Thanks for that Adam,
The trick is with the airbutton being in the right place . See previous posts and photo's.
  On that machine, the bellows are not homemade. I took two Chanson bellows and stuck them together and then gave the whole caboodle several coats inside and out with spray auto paint.
It sealed them beautifully . I wanted the whole thing to still look like a toy, which backfired as a CERTAIN PERSON thought it was!
As for the video  :|bl I have no idea we were being filmed. The jig dolls were made for me by Chris Harvey and modelled on two of Bourne River Morris  men who were founding members.
The next project is to put Chanson reeds into a posh box,  that'll sort him out.  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on September 16, 2013, 09:40:50 AM
Chanson gang - I very almost bought one of your little instruments. But didn't. But the upshot is that I have a Top Tip.

Pete Grasby on his stall at Bromyard had a Hero melodeon. It was basically a tiny piano accordion with no black notes - very cute. We took it apart and it had decent looking reeds, proper wooden palletboard, wooden removable reedblocks (even the bass end), the works. Sounded great. Price £30. I think that it is the prototype for all Chansons after that.

Worth a look on eBay I think. I think (hope) that Pete sold his, but you could always drop him a line...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on September 16, 2013, 10:28:16 AM
Thanks Owen, I`ve seen a few of these, I didn`t know they had wooden reedblocks (they all have removable blocks, the Chanson ones are plastic)  - the wooden shelled Chansons I`ve seen have proper Plywood palletboards too, though Brian or Nick had one with a hardboard one, It thankfully doesn`t seem to be common .
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Owen Woods on September 16, 2013, 11:07:14 AM
It was a nicely built box with a nice sound. But it was in C and I don't have much call for that. Plus I already have a 1140C...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on September 17, 2013, 12:47:31 AM
Pete Grasby on his stall at Bromyard had a Hero melodeon. It was basically a tiny piano accordion with no black notes - very cute. We took it apart and it had decent looking reeds, proper wooden palletboard, wooden removable reedblocks (even the bass end), the works. Sounded great. Price £30. I think that it is the prototype for all Chansons after that.

I had one of these for a while. I loaned it to someone and never got it back. I haven't seen a new one available since the 90s and used ones almost never turn up on ebay. I liked the piano key "buttons", and there were nine treble notes as I recall. They were available at the same time as the little seven button "Hero" (and other name) boxes. I'd love to have another but as I said they don't often turn up.

TBV
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on October 02, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
what to do with leaky bellows (https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1383019_10151702398828123_1047714759_n.jpg) or "Collis Bird Couture". There's a fair few gussets there.
A little number from the World Of Wearable Arts award show, here. Apparently it's called Funeral, but Chanson would be so much more lyrical.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on October 02, 2013, 04:19:50 PM
That`s way cool !! , I`m not sure I could walk in the shoes though . :-[
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 04, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on October 13, 2013, 09:45:57 PM
I've only just discovered this thread! I looked at the title, decided it was about posh French top-price boxes, beyond my pocket and skill level, and passed on to more relevancy. As a result, I've just waded through 24 pages of highly interesting and EXTREMELY relevant correspondence and have pulled out my red thing (techspeke!) and am looking for my PVA glue. I hadn't realised I was a Chansonier! O frabjious day!  :|glug ;D :||:
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 13, 2013, 09:55:46 PM
Welcome to the  - well, I'm not quite sure what to call it, really. But welcome anyway.
Will you be abandoning hope now, or in instalments?

A lot of fun is to be had.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 16, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
Huzza! My first venture into the world of Youtube, assisted by my ridiculously young neighbours...I'm trying to encourage all you Chansonistas to put up some tunes on our little pets. (do I really look this old?) http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0 (http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on October 16, 2013, 11:26:45 AM
Huzza! My first venture into the world of Youtube, assisted by my ridiculously young neighbours...I'm trying to encourage all you Chansonistas to put up some tunes on our little pets. (do I really look this old?) http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0 (http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0)

That'll be the lesser spotted double-bellowed chanson then?  (:) :||:

Nice one, even the dog looks impressed.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on October 16, 2013, 11:48:46 AM
Great idea Brian, I`ll have to get some Hohner reeds into one of mine as it`s not fit for public performance as is and 1st button start drives me NUTS, at least if I mess up the plastic reedblock, I`ve got the other one :)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 16, 2013, 02:04:41 PM
She's not a bit impressed Helena, still a bit choked at being wizzed from Okehampton to Brighton, and yes it IS the lesser spotted double bellowed Chanson; twice the bellows capacity makes the inherent leaks barely noticeable..... ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 16, 2013, 05:05:37 PM
Absolutely brilliant Brian. Have you sorted the air button?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 16, 2013, 05:53:10 PM
No Nick, I haven't, and you can probably tell that for the first couple of bars I had my finger on the bugger...... :||: :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on October 17, 2013, 02:11:43 AM
Does a double-bellows chanson also have a double-chin end?  :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 17, 2013, 02:49:24 PM
Disapointingly it hasn't made me twice as good at playing Lyra... :||: :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 17, 2013, 03:56:39 PM
Disapointingly it hasn't made me twice as good at playing Lyra... :||: :'(

That's not the point Brian, the fact you are playing one is.
I think somewhere on this thread I have put some pictures of my Bell crank idea for the air button.
It's fairly simple and makes a huge difference.
The beauty of playing these little fellows, with proper reeds and a decent amount of air is a real joy.
  Even if I did get rusticated by someone who didn't understand. ( he had no authority anyway but I loved it)
If you find you are still losing too much air, hang the bellows on the washing line (put a stick in top and bottom with a weight) and spray it in and out with some car paint, spray can, colour of your choice. It will seal them well enough.
Keep us posted. ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 17, 2013, 04:05:18 PM
You aren't going to forgive G**y for a long time...  >:(

But definitely fun, when you aren't trying to flap your arms like a duck attempting take-off just to keep some air in it.

And Brian looked like he was having fun.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 17, 2013, 04:30:32 PM
I must give your bell crank mod a go Nick, the temptation to press the air button whilst searching for a chord is what loses the air, the old PVA in the gusset treatment has ALMOST made them airtight. Malcolm, I must search out your air button mod as well. It's time we had a tune from you Nick..... :||: :Ph
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 17, 2013, 06:21:54 PM
http://youtu.be/t2mZoS1xw-c

You won't beleive the trouble getting this on. Brian. But here we go  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on October 17, 2013, 06:56:38 PM
I started a project to midi-fy of these little beauties last year then other stuff got in the way, now that the festival season is over I might have some time to dig it out and have another go  (:). 
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 17, 2013, 07:05:36 PM
I started a project to midi-fy of these little beauties last year then other stuff got in the way, now that the festival season is over I might have some time to dig it out and have another go  (:).

SO! What happened to the paper weight?  :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Rog on October 17, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
Hey Nick, that's great. I like.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on October 17, 2013, 07:23:43 PM
I started a project to midi-fy of these little beauties last year then other stuff got in the way, now that the festival season is over I might have some time to dig it out and have another go  (:).

SO! What happened to the paper weight?  :'(

I've got at least three around somewhere  ;)  One's a paperweight, one plays reasonably well and other one is the candidate for franken-chanson status.

On a related note I've just looked for the photos from Swanage FF with me playing the double-bellowed Collis Bird Chanson special  and it looks like *someone* has deleted them.  Can I come back and have another play on it next year?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 17, 2013, 09:00:06 PM
I started a project to midi-fy of these little beauties last year then other stuff got in the way, now that the festival season is over I might have some time to dig it out and have another go  (:).

SO! What happened to the paper weight?  :'(

I've got at least three around somewhere  ;)  One's a paperweight, one plays reasonably well and other one is the candidate for franken-chanson status.

On a related note I've just looked for the photos from Swanage FF with me playing the double-bellowed Collis Bird Chanson special  and it looks like *someone* has deleted them.  Can I come back and have another play on it next year?

Helena, you know you are always welcome to play it anytime you like.
I would even post it to you if you really wanted to know how to Frankenchanson those that you have. >:E >
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Helena Handcart on October 17, 2013, 09:26:20 PM
Helena, you know you are always welcome to play it anytime you like.
I would even post it to you if you really wanted to know how to Frankenchanson those that you have. >:E >

Tee hee, thanks Nick. We'll definitely be back at Swanage FF next year. This year was a hoot.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 17, 2013, 09:39:41 PM
Nick, you're a complete idiot! Here's how you get on youtube, pay attention. You find someone under the age of  lets say 25, ply them with copious amounts of plonk, feed them if you're really desperate and suggest that they have talents that you could only dream of possessing. When they are positively glowing lead them to the computer and unleash them. They're all born with one of those Clever Phones glued to their paw nowadays so you don't have to bother with that bit. Grandchildren of course can just be bribed, but you have to make them stand still for a bit which can be tricky. Have you got all that? Loved your playing but still think that C is the best key... ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 18, 2013, 06:14:11 AM
Nick, you're a complete idiot! Here's how you get on youtube, pay attention. You find someone under the age of  lets say 25, ply them with copious amounts of plonk, feed them if you're really desperate and suggest that they have talents that you could only dream of possessing. When they are positively glowing lead them to the computer and unleash them. They're all born with one of those Clever Phones glued to their paw nowadays so you don't have to bother with that bit. Grandchildren of course can just be bribed, but you have to make them stand still for a bit which can be tricky. Have you got all that? Loved your playing but still think that C is the best key... ;)

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 18, 2013, 08:31:39 AM
Huzza! My first venture into the world of Youtube, assisted by my ridiculously young neighbours...I'm trying to encourage all you Chansonistas to put up some tunes on our little pets. (do I really look this old?) http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0 (http://youtu.be/IM7yopS9zr0)

Yes Brian, you do. Join the club matey. >:E
Even did that vid without me teef in, Ho hum. :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 19, 2013, 05:04:44 PM
Surely it wasn't only Nick CB and myself who gave a 'Chanson' a bowel transplant? I was rather hoping that a regiment of Chansonistas would step forward and offer a rendition... :(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on October 19, 2013, 09:26:00 PM
I don`t know anyone else - most of us are still playing the things Au-Natural - LOL ! . Sad or what
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 19, 2013, 09:29:17 PM
Oh go on then (http://youtu.be/QqKd8AMeDQc)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on October 19, 2013, 10:27:49 PM
Oh well done Malcolm! That's three of us. I'm a bit scared that Mr Awol of Oz will turn up and wipe the floor with us.... :-[
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 19, 2013, 10:30:49 PM
A little background to the mods (http://youtu.be/9BfSjbQQtzw). Unlike Hector,I don't have a spare Erica to demolish...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on October 19, 2013, 10:32:35 PM
Oh go on then (http://youtu.be/QqKd8AMeDQc)
Well done Malcolm, sounds a bit like a melodeon to me. What key? I ask because it sounds a damn sight better than my G. ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 19, 2013, 10:34:07 PM
All explained in the second video (http://youtu.be/9BfSjbQQtzw) - but it's in C with the original reeds.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: triskel on November 01, 2013, 07:20:44 PM
Gosh lads, have you seen the price of Chansons these days? CHANSON MINI MELODEON ACCORDION for ALL AGES /BEGINNERS
£119.99 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CHANSON-MINI-MELODEON-ACCORDION-ALL-AGES-BEGINNERS-/180788429049?_trksid=m8&_trkparms=algo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D12%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2400025986576729556)  :(

And it says they've already sold 58 of them...  :o

Methinks Real Music need to get real!  ::)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 01, 2013, 07:54:40 PM
Judging by the postage, it's the heavyweight version.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: deltasalmon on November 01, 2013, 07:56:35 PM
It can hold its own with the big boys. that's why it's a best seller.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: mory on November 01, 2013, 08:11:09 PM
Does this count as holding it's own with the big boy's. Seamus at Camden and Brendon had one last year, they get everywhere.
AtB mory
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: triskel on November 01, 2013, 08:16:35 PM
Does this count as holding it's own with the big boy's. Seamus at Camden and Brendon had one last year, they get everywhere.

I saw Seamus (and Colm Gannon) playing a well-modified one in Feakle this year, and Bobby Gardiner has been playing one (with doubled bellows) for years.

Edited to add: Goodness, that's my 1,000th post on here, and number 500 in this topic!  :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: mory on November 01, 2013, 08:23:22 PM
The beauty of it was Seamus's was held together with black tape  ;D probably the same one Stephen, it was another of Michael Usui's. AtB

Edited to add  Not sure if that's congrat's or get out more Stephen.  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: triskel on November 01, 2013, 11:00:27 PM
Edited to add  Not sure if that's congrat's or get out more Stephen.  ;D

I console myself that it was only one of my 0.527 per day, since 2008. But you may have a point...
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on November 02, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
Going back to the £119.99 'Chanson'..I was offered £200 by a nice Belgium gent for one of my Microbotted babies.It was one in D that I had stripped back to the wood, stained and varnished. I turned down the offer as I've become too fond of both of them, they are so nice to play and with Hohner reeds sound great. I thought I'd posted this last night but obviously pressed the wrong tit.. :|bl
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 04, 2013, 06:32:53 AM
Gosh lads, have you seen the price of Chansons these days? CHANSON MINI MELODEON ACCORDION for ALL AGES /BEGINNERS
£119.99 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CHANSON-MINI-MELODEON-ACCORDION-ALL-AGES-BEGINNERS-/180788429049?_trksid=m8&_trkparms=algo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D12%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2400025986576729556)  :(

And it says they've already sold 58 of them...  :o

Methinks Real Music need to get real!  ::)

Actually we have been here before. Came to the conclusion that the price is a typo.  ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: triskel on November 04, 2013, 06:49:36 AM
Actually we have been hear before. Came to the conclusion that the price is a typo.  ???

Let's hope it is, but then there's also the £82.31 Hohner Toy Accordion - Blue (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hohner-Toy-Accordion-Blue-/141085051031?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Drums_Percussions_MJ&hash=item20d9530897#ht_400wt_962) also on eBay :-\
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 04, 2013, 07:06:36 AM
Incredible  :o
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 04, 2013, 07:20:25 AM
Business seller "Revaluation Books". Yup.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on December 21, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
New addition to the stable. All-plastic red one. Not sure how long it will live, reeds seem to be suffering from emphysema. Bellows - usual. Under £6 inc P&P.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on December 22, 2013, 04:02:02 AM
I have acquired one like
this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-RED-CHINA-CHILDS-TOY-HERO-ACCORDION-SHANGHAI-UC102-BOXED-/310826769959?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item485eb81e27)
Really is quite old but seems in good nick apart from a spring has gone on the treble side. I think I could manage to fix that, but where to source the new spring? I have notions of an adapted safety pin but is that a heath robinson too far?
If there's a way to get a "proper" one that would be good
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 22, 2013, 06:47:15 AM
I have acquired one like
this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-RED-CHINA-CHILDS-TOY-HERO-ACCORDION-SHANGHAI-UC102-BOXED-/310826769959?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item485eb81e27)
Really is quite old but seems in good nick apart from a spring has gone on the treble side. I think I could manage to fix that, but where to source the new spring? I have notions of an adapted safety pin but is that a heath robinson too far?
If there's a way to get a "proper" one that would be good
[/quote

A safety pin should work well, they are generally  made from good quality spring steel.
Charlie Marshall May be worth trying. Most springs are adaptable.  (:)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on December 22, 2013, 06:58:17 AM
I looked at his catalogue - like a gazillion springs  :o
no idea which one might do
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 22, 2013, 07:05:28 AM
I looked at his catalogue - like a gazillion springs  :o
no idea which one might do
[/quote

Give him a ring Lyra, he is a mine of information . I asked him for strap brackets for the Chanson. He supplied the perfect type.  ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on December 22, 2013, 09:03:57 AM
:O that would cost more than the spring! I will pop him a 'email though - ta.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on December 22, 2013, 10:02:13 AM
A safety pin should work well, they are generally  made from good quality spring steel.
Charlie Marshall May be worth trying. Most springs are adaptable.  (:)

I tried using a safety pin on an old Hero like the one pictured; I used the smallest safety pin I could find and it was still way too strong. Over time I accumulated a few like boxes, and just scavenged the older ones for parts.

I should note that these springs seemed to break with frustrating regularity, but they're not that difficult to change.

TBV
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on December 23, 2013, 09:39:48 AM
will just have to keep my eyes open, I guess.

in other news, want (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OJAMAJO-DOREMI-TANOSHII-ACCORDION-TOY-BANDAI-JAPAN-NEW-/310810362767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485dbdc38f), although not at that price.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 23, 2013, 09:59:50 AM
will just have to keep my eyes open, I guess.

in other news, want (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OJAMAJO-DOREMI-TANOSHII-ACCORDION-TOY-BANDAI-JAPAN-NEW-/310810362767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485dbdc38f), although not at that price.

Which spring has broken Lyra? I might  be able to help out
Edit for spelling
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on December 23, 2013, 10:17:07 AM
Lyra, I had one of those, and it as the worst 'Chanson' I've ever had. It didn't have a pallet that sealed and I managed to break a spring in five minutes.  Strangely the bellows were ALMOST airtight, and as I'd only bought it for the bellows in order to double up the bellows on a Microbotted  beastie all was well. As for it being 'Vintage'......... :||: :-\
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on December 24, 2013, 06:25:04 AM
I have sourced a suitable pin
However fitting it is likely to lead to damage as I chuck the whole caboodle across the room  >:E
It's beginning to be like one of those "how to give a cat a pill" stories. "Insert rod gently into key and retainer, offer up spring, retrieve spring from far side of room, recommence, retrieve specs from floor where twanged by flying spring, threaten spring, retrieve from under sofa, throw whole caboodle in a box and give up for the day". Clearly there's a knack (and probably a tool) and I have neither.
Whiny of Wellington
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on December 26, 2013, 09:05:33 PM
I've replaced a half a dozen of these springs on Hero toys with just a pair of pliers to bend the rod end and a pencil with an eraser to jam the ends of the spring into (closed), so it can indeed be done, but the fact that it needs to be done so often should tell you something.

TBV

Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 26, 2013, 09:21:08 PM
I've replaced a half a dozen of these springs on Hero toys with just a pair of pliers to bend the rod end and a pencil with an eraser to jam the ends of the spring into (closed), so it can indeed be done, but the fact that it needs to be done so often should tell you something.

TBV
Ergo, you get what you pay for. Having said that, (touch wood, or hardboard in Chanson's case)
I've never had a spring  bust yet. I think it must be the luck of the draw.
At work I have an extremely expensive blocking machine. That's the thing that puts gold lettering on books. In 1979 I bought this machine and 30 years later a spring broke. I ordered another, it lasted six months, and another one two months, complaining to the company they said they had no problems.
I now have a bag go the little devils and two years in it is still holding. SO luck of the tempering?  ???
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on December 27, 2013, 07:15:14 AM
I now have a bag go the little devils and two years in it is still holding. SO luck of the tempering?  ???

I've never had this problem with a toy button box like the ever-popular Chanson (generally called a Schilling or a First Act over here) but I have had several springs break on each of the three Hero toys I have owned. These all had the little levers in place of real buttons, as shown in the link Lyra provided. Maybe it was something in the way I played it.

TBV
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on February 09, 2014, 04:12:48 AM
Interesting thing on Ebay...it appears to be a variation on the ubiquitous 7 button/2 bass (w/air button) Chanson (or Schilling or Hero or First Act or whatever), but built in a "concertina"-esque hexagonal shape. Thought someone might be interested.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/accordians-woodstock-accordian-squeezebox-/161219774676?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25897288d4

TBV
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 09, 2014, 07:45:48 AM
Hmmm. About 28 quid, far too expensive, plus no shipping to UK
Wonder if it could play Men of Harlech?  :||: >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Rog on February 09, 2014, 09:32:34 AM
It looks dreadful. Neither nowt nor summat, as my relatives from Hull might say.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 09, 2014, 09:56:55 AM
It looks dreadful. Neither nowt nor summat, as my relatives from Hull might say.

Where's Hull?  Hell, or Halifax for that matter? One assumes it's near Chansonville  >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 09, 2014, 10:34:24 AM
Nick, you don't need to know. It's even further north than Derby, far too far to gallop at your age.  I don't think that even a very very big wave will take you that far. (PS Is Swanage still there? Not five miles inland by this morning?)
Although I understand there is a long established delivery service for returns.

Anyway, they're a bit confused up there. They've put the coast on the wrong side, you'd be quite disoriented and end up walking sideways all the time.

As for the box, it's got close to the right number of buttons, and is about the right colour, but it doesn't take much concerted scholerly examination to spot that it's an imposter. Heck, I say, in fact several times, as the wise old saying goes, you just can't fit a six sided object into an oblong gig bag.
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 09, 2014, 10:55:50 AM
Several beach huts here in Swanage have been Chansonised, eg. Rubbished.  :-* :'(
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lyra on February 09, 2014, 08:54:22 PM
One good thing about being on the last islands before you fall off the planet is that good old NZ post have set up warehouses in the UK and US so we can have local shipping addresses. Since they charge on volumetric weight and repack everything to make it smaller I'd not  want to trust anything truly melodeony to their tender care, but it's great for squishy stuff (and chansons).
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 10, 2014, 09:23:39 PM
@malcolmbegg Heck is, in fact only a few miles West of Hull, although I have, in the past, been given to understand that it is where Americans go when they die.  >:E  :|bl  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: The Blues Viking on February 11, 2014, 02:50:07 AM
All this talk about Hell...I know precisely where it is. It's in Michigan, north of Ann Arbor.

TBV
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 11, 2014, 07:23:47 PM
Touche! (Sorry, my Kindle won't do accents.)  :||:  :|glug
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on February 12, 2014, 01:39:49 AM
  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Lester on December 03, 2015, 12:29:07 PM
So I received an email from Brian which was titled Is this Daft?  (:)

He had bought a Chanson locally and could I convert it to Bb from C. It turned out to be about the most playable Chanson I have ever met and even after tip loading the existing reed set to convert it to Bb it still remained so. Had to add two Hohner reeds to allow for a second button start but all the rest are as it left China plus a vist from the soldering iron gnome.

https://youtu.be/1gYLs6nREd4
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on December 03, 2015, 02:15:04 PM
The Chanson thread resuscitated! It lives Igor, it lives ! >:E
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on December 03, 2015, 06:42:25 PM
For the Record - I`ve still got my all-wood blue one Brian .. Whether it counts as "A Box" is another matter - still almost in tune but also still running on the standard bellows and reeds (bellows de-leaked as much as poss) , I`m amazed its lasted 3 years .

I wish mine was 2nd button start, the high notes are pretty useless anyway
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on December 03, 2015, 06:53:19 PM
I have a strange urge to find another one for a fiver max and get it G tuned to go with my C and D Chansons. I doubled the size of the bellows on those which in retrospect was not necessary ....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Broadland Boy on December 04, 2015, 12:32:12 AM
NURSE  he's put out of bed again...........

Edited for missspellinng  ;)
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Adam-T on December 04, 2015, 08:26:37 AM
I have a strange urge to find another one for a fiver max and get it G tuned to go with my C and D Chansons. I doubled the size of the bellows on those which in retrospect was not necessary ....

you`ll need triple bellows for a "normal" G (octave lower than a DG box) if the HA114 is anything to go by ..... I`d make it a high G

Are there *still* wooden chansons kicking about for a Fiver (£10 to the door) ?
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: 911377brian on December 04, 2015, 10:48:31 AM
Not many I think Adam,but being a gentleman of leisure I'm always ferreting about the charity shops and markets .....
Title: Re: Chanson
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on December 04, 2015, 11:11:24 PM
I've had a few old "mother of toilet seat" covered wooden ones, with external anodized aluminium pallets which I have played occasionally over the last ten years. They are all third button start in the key of C. Recently, my wife found on at a thrift store. This one is made of plastic, with a recessed button keyboard/covered pallet treble end. It is a first button start, key of C. I thought about duct taping one of the old ones on top of the newer one which would give me a somewhat redundant, two row with nine, instead of seven different buttons.Today, I went out in the front yard and played the new one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UuCeXiMQCo
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