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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Keithypete. on January 12, 2013, 02:58:50 PM

Title: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Keithypete. on January 12, 2013, 02:58:50 PM
Why do I KEEP making mistakes? Even with tunes which I thought I had nailed on?  >:(
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Theo on January 12, 2013, 03:00:53 PM
Because you are human!  We all do it.  Ever been to a John Kirkpatrick concert without a mistake?   Me neither, but he is still a great performer.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: YorkieKen on January 12, 2013, 03:16:53 PM
You don't make mistakes...you create variations  ::)
I do it all the time  :||:
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 12, 2013, 03:18:37 PM
Absolutely.  I think I can safely say that in all the years I've been playing I have NEVER played a gig - band, morris, folk club, whatever - where I have not made a few mistakes.  Some years ago I worked in a band with a guitarist who got quite worked up whenever there was a slight glitch, whether musical or technical, saying it was "unprofessional"; he seemed to be totally oblivious to the number of c**k-ups he must have seen in big-name pro concerts.  I remember a Gary Glitter Christmas Concert (before he was persona non grata) where there were a few "interesting" musical moments and the techies were onstage almost as much as the band.  Now if it can go wrong for a supremely professional outfit rehearsed to that level........

Graham
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: 911377brian on January 12, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
I play with two lady guitarists who seem to be totally oblivious to my mistakes.It cheers me no end and I feel myself loosening up wonderfully....and make less mistakes. ....I wish I'd worded the first half of the first sentence differently.... :|bl
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Sage Herb on January 12, 2013, 03:45:36 PM
Because you are human!  We all do it.

Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......

Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Myrrh Music on January 12, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
I find the most annoying thing at the moment is drifting from one tune into another - I see it coming every time and can't stop myself drifting from Lillbulero into Grimstock...Not that I can play either well. :(
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: tedrick on January 12, 2013, 03:52:26 PM
Hi Pete -
I think the inner game of music if fascinating - I think we often make mistakes because we are thinking too hard -

isn't it interesting how you can put a tune away for a few weeks that you aren't playing especially well, and then come back to it after awhile and play it better than when you were really practicing it hard?

I find I make fewer mistakes when I'm playing with others - listening to the other players and hearing the tune through their instruments helps a lot - as opposed to playing solo where I'm just listening to myself and I can just loose it - there is so much to the inner game of music - thinking ahead to the next phrase or next tune, keeping time, not getting distracted - it's all a lot easier when you are in a session or with a group.

It really makes you admire great musicians even more - I think what we can learn from them is they are not over thinking - they are just playing and letting the music come out like water.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 12, 2013, 04:18:04 PM
I find the most annoying thing at the moment is drifting from one tune into another - I see it coming every time and can't stop myself drifting from Lillbulero into Grimstock...Not that I can play either well. :(

" Keep calm and carry on"
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Mike Hirst on January 12, 2013, 04:21:43 PM
the inner game of music if fascinating

There is an excellent book of this name, which I have read myself and I have often recommended to pupils

The Inner Game of Music - Barry Green/W Timothy Gallwey (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inner-Game-Music-Timothy-Gallwey/dp/0330300172/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358007466&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Howard Jones on January 12, 2013, 04:23:51 PM
Most mistakes are noticed only by the player - the audience isn't even aware.  You may have played an incorrect note, but if it's not glaringly obvious that it's "wrong" then no one will know, or care.  Fortunately the melodeon is fairly forgiving since any wrong notes will at least probably be in the right key.

The next level of mistake may be noticed by the audience at the time, but is immediately forgiven and forgotten as it is just a minor glitch which doesn't interfere with their enjoyment of the performance as a whole.

The mistakes which most challenge a performer are the ones which do interfere with the performance - the challenge being how to deal with them.  Examples are forgetting the words or the tune, or starting in the wrong key.

Inexperienced performers tend to panic over even minor mistakes.  Experienced performers learn to cope with them and develop tricks to disguise them.  I was once complimented that I never seem to forget the words to songs - wrong!  However I became quite good at throwing in an unplanned instrumental break, mumbling something to cover a lost word or two or even making it up as I went along.  What I tried to avoid was staring at the ceiling while strumming the same chord - a dead give-away, but one which you see all to often in singarounds.

As Theo has pointed out, John K frequently makes mistakes - usually he just laughs them off, which brings the audience on his side.  Dick Gaughan (a superb Scottish singer and guitarist) says on his website that the difference between a professional and an amateur is "The professional normally doesn't tell the audience they've forgotten the next verse".  He's also said that in his professional career almost anything that could go wrong has gone wrong, so he's learned to deal with it and not to let it rattle him.

The lesson (besides continuing to practice) is not to worry so much about mistakes.  This will also make you more relaxed, and less likely to make any.  However when you do make one, learn how to deal with it.  It's all part of the learning experience.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: tedrick on January 12, 2013, 04:44:50 PM
Great comments Howard - thanks!
My school band director always recommended the Inner Game of Music -
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 12, 2013, 05:08:21 PM
I agree with everything said.  I've always had trouble with this, although for reasons unknown to me, after about thirty years of playing I noticed I was suddenly making noticeably fewer mistakes.

Also, it's easy to forget just how complex playing any musical instrument actually is - for the box you have to remember a pattern of right hand fingerings and bellows movements, play them in time, at the right speed, with the right emphasis and length, at the same time as playing a different pattern on the left hand, and controlling the bellows with your thumb.  It takes a very long period of time to gain enough experience to have found ways of learning all those things in such a way that you can do them all at once.  In JK's case he's doing all these things to a very high level of complexity, and on top of all that, singing and relating to an audience, and I find the amazing thing about him is that he doesn't make more mistakes!

However, I also feel that some people do seem to find it easier than others to play without mistakes, and this may be something to do with inadvertently learning other conflicting patterns, subconsciously, as the brain assimilates a tune into long-term memory.  I find that rehearsing a tune once (or more until you've got it right) just before you perform it live is a very useful technique, because for me it has the effect of 're-cementing' the right patterns in my memory.

I have often wondered why I suddenly seemed to get less-mistake prone over the last few years.  It's partly down to doing more practice these days, but I think it's mainly caused by my having reduced my 'performance-shyness' problems through just relaxing - and I notice that the same thing has happened with all the different instruments I play, supporting my theory.  It's almost as if getting older has made me realise that I ain't going to improve my technique much from now on, so I might as well relax about it (and that, lo and behold and wha-hey, was actually the key to improving my technique all along!)
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 12, 2013, 05:31:19 PM
  I find that rehearsing a tune once (or more until you've got it right) just before you perform it live is a very useful technique, because for me it has the effect of 're-cementing' the right patterns in my memory.

That's interesting, Chris, because I find just the opposite; for some reason, I tend to play tunes I've rehearsed 2 or 3 days prior to a performance better than ones I've run through within 24 hours of a gig. I did an open mic night just before Christmas, with no rehearsal and not deciding what I was going to play until about 20 minutes before I went on.  I astonished myself with how well the 2 sets went, and friends in the audience remarked (kindly) that it was the best they'd heard me play.  Funny old thing, the sub-conscious........

Graham
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 12, 2013, 05:53:23 PM
Graham, that is very interesting, as you say!  Maybe some other factor is at work, and both of us have found something that works psychologically for ourselves, and that is why we are confident, so therefore we get it right?
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 12, 2013, 06:42:52 PM
Graham, that is very interesting, as you say!  Maybe some other factor is at work, and both of us have found something that works psychologically for ourselves, and that is why we are confident, so therefore we get it right?

Absolutely, Chris - horses for courses, as has been said so many times here.  There's no "right" or "wrong" way - whatever works for you.

Take care
Graham
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: AirTime on January 12, 2013, 06:50:26 PM
Quote
Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????

I feel your pain. It is a most exasperating thing.

As a newcomer to the box, my theory is: the melodeon is a simple instrument ergonomically & musically. As such, it is relatively easy to pick up & start playing a few tunes within a fairly short period of time. However, "playing" & "playing without mistakes" are two completely different things! I get a lot of pleasure learning a variety of tunes for myself, when "mistakes" don't really matter as I'm focused on enjoying the musicality of the tune itself. Playing for other people though, or even for the video cam, is an entirely different matter. I find it takes A LOT of repetition to reach the point where I can play a tune confidently enough to be able to play it through consistently with no (or very minor) mistakes.

I suspect that the majority of box players play by ear (ie. memory) rather than music, so there's no "guide" to keeping on track. I don't know about anybody else, but I play tunes by learning the inherent "pattern" - the rhythm of push/pull, button & row - that is particular to each tune. With a lot of different "patterns" floating around in my subconscious, it is easy to go for the wrong one in the heat of the moment!

I'm assuming (hoping!), that with more time & experience, not only will the mechanics of playing get easier & easier, but the "patterns" will become ingrained in a more fundamental way.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Mike Hirst on January 12, 2013, 07:02:11 PM
The sagely voice of Neil Young poses the same question on the album Ragged Glory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvRmBUEwtZg

Melodeon version, anyone?
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Andrew Shead on January 12, 2013, 07:48:18 PM
Mistakes just add interest to the performance. As a rank beginner, I've found that melodeon face distracts the audience sufficiently to allow the mistakes to pass. The worst thing you can do is to draw attention to any mistakes by stopping or hesitating.

Last November, shortly after I took delivery of my box, I recorded Happy Birthday for my sister. Before sending the recording, I used Audacity to remove an unfortunate hesitation that upset the rhythm, but apart from that all went well. My sister shrieked with laughter at the spectacle of my internal struggle with the instrument and missed the mistakes.

I've found that playing in front of a camera is good practice. I just keep going until I've got something passable. Anyway, I like the fun and challenge, it keeps one's wits burnished.

Bottom line: Relax and don't worry about it. Have fun.

Edit: In my hurry to post this, I conflated two recordings I did of the tune for two persons, one audio and the other video. I edited the audio version. Here's the video for your amusement:

http://awd-s.smugmug.com/share/N915hH23MHRps (http://awd-s.smugmug.com/share/N915hH23MHRps)

I got a lot mileage out of this first tune.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Keithypete. on January 12, 2013, 08:15:56 PM
Thanks for all the replies, support & advice, great stuff.

I've been doing some long hours - early starts mainly, and am pretty tired, so practice has become a bit of a chore. Probably better to not practice until I feel like it.
I've managed to more or less learn several new tunes, by ear, at sessions recently, so there are some positives.

Perhaps I'll get myself a copy of The Inner game of music, safe in the knowledge that reading it won't make me a better musician, anymore than owning a flashy, expensive box will.
I was told years ago "Practice doesn't make perfect - Practice makes PERMANENT." Which I took to mean get it right - then nail it on.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 13, 2013, 06:39:31 AM
The worst thing you can do is to draw attention to any mistakes by stopping or hesitating.

Bottom line: Relax and don't worry about it. Have fun.

Excellent advice - couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Pat. on January 13, 2013, 08:18:48 AM
When I was  an apprentice in the constuction industry ,I was told  that the man who never made a mistake never made anything,this saying equaly applies to musicians.I also think that sometimes making a mistake can sometimes add something to the tune [providing that the mistake is in the same key ;D].It is the ability to recover that is important as most people will not even know ,this might well explain different versions of the same tune.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 13, 2013, 08:41:59 AM
When I was  an apprentice in the constuction industry ,I was told  that the man who never made a mistake never made anything,this saying equaly applies to musicians.I also think that sometimes making a mistake can sometimes add something to the tune [providing that the mistake is in the same key ;D].It is the ability to recover that is important as most people will not even know ,this might well explain different versions of the same tune.

I refer you all to my previous post.
" Keep calm and carry on"
Unless you have a complete blunder, no one will notice if you carry on as if nothing had happened.
I recall several times in a folk club, starting off in one key and realising it's the wrong one and recovering with a few twiddly bits.
 I should point out that Cecil Sharpe or Lionel Bacon were not present!!
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: FlowingTide on January 13, 2013, 09:46:30 AM
Relax and enjoy - that's the key I think. If I can keep the rhythm going mistakes are just variations anyway....  Being tense and anticipating mistakes makes them happen.
If it's the same mistake over and over again I have two strategies: Insert something new elsewhere in the tune (an ornament, say) that attracts all my "worries" and muscle  memory takes over for the bit that I got wrong before. Problem solved plus a nice ornament added!
The second strategy is to work on building that muscle memory correctly. Learning something on an instrument is done in a "modern" part of the brain. And when "mastered" it is moved to an older part and becomes what I think of as muscle memory. It's like walking over a meadow. If you use the same route every day you will tread a path. And that will lead you in the future - you will choose that route unthinkingly. If you choose a wrong route over and over and over again: That will become a path and the original one will grow over. So I take the bits that I "always" play wrong and practice them extra slow. Only gradually adding neighbouring phrases and increasing speed.

Oh and there is a third strategy: Don't play the  worrying bit. If it's just too hard to do I change it. A long note instead of an arpeggio or ornamentation - something like that. I usually figure out lots of possible variations that sound good, that I CAN play (and enjoy) and that I can throw in at will. That's a great skill gained and the fun brought back!

If your question is about different mistakes all over the place: Relax and enjoy!
It took me some time to accept that this is what I can play NOW. I am not going to wait, sweat and struggle for enjoyment in the future. I will never get perfect, I might never even be "good" by other peoples standards but that's not why I play music.

(My music buddies and I had a band once - we played very well on stage but we were so tense and didn't really enjoy it. And neither did the audience I think. Now we just play a session in a pub for our own entertainment and people are reserving tables for the night.)

Irina
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: hubert on January 13, 2013, 10:16:48 AM
sounds like good advice...Hubert
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 13, 2013, 10:32:51 AM
There's a lot of sensible comments in this thread that confirm what I'm starting to realise.
Having just returned to a week's work after the Christmas break, therefore early starts in the madhouse that is a modern school, I get home and am tired in the evenings. Some nights this week I've really messed up some normally reliable tunes. On these nights I've just practised lightly and not pursued any hard practice as I find it counter productive. Rather than beat myself up I've come to realise I'm tired and so it's daft trying to get stuff into my head, better go and relax and get an early night.
To highlight this, on friday I came home early, everyone was out, so I grabbed the box and had a good practise. I felt relaxed as it was the start of the weekend, and not too tired, and I played the best I'd done all week.
I'm starting to realise and recognise tiredness is the curse for good practice and playing, and relaxing also improves my playing immeasurably.
Q
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: IanD on January 13, 2013, 11:36:05 AM
Because you are human!  We all do it.

Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......
That's because you make the mistake of thinking about it too much :-)

Same issue in the old days of recording onto tape when if you fluffed something you had to replay that section again and drop it into the recording in real time. Practice the bad bit several times perfect every time, then "rolling...", then think "here we go, coming up, I mustn't make that mistake agai... ** BOLLOCKS *** ". Repeat several times with exactly the same outcome.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Howard Jones on January 13, 2013, 12:22:04 PM
Same issue in the old days of recording onto tape when if you fluffed something you had to replay that section again and drop it into the recording in real time

Thank god for digital recording! 

It does seem to the the case that the more aware you are of making a mistake at a particular point the more likely you are to repeat it.  Either that, or you are thinking so hard about not making it that you fluff something else. 

I find it's necessary to achieve a mental state where I'm concentrating on what I'm doing, but not too hard. I notice it more when playing guitar, where the fingerboard is more easily visible than a melodeon keyboard - I watch my fingers with a sense of detachment, they seem to be working on their own without conscious thought from me.  As soon as I start to think about what I'm doing, it all falls apart.

Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Sage Herb on January 13, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
Because you are human!  We all do it.

Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......
That's because you make the mistake of thinking about it too much :-)

Same issue in the old days of recording onto tape when if you fluffed something you had to replay that section again and drop it into the recording in real time. Practice the bad bit several times perfect every time, then "rolling...", then think "here we go, coming up, I mustn't make that mistake agai... ** BOLLOCKS *** ". Repeat several times with exactly the same outcome.

Been thinking about this a bit more and I suspect it differs with how I've learned the tune in the first place. Mostly I learn by ear without paying any attention to what my fingers should be doing - they just do it. In that case, I think Ian is right about how to avoid repeating mistakes, ie relax and let my fingers get it right. But there is a minority of tunes that I have learned with more conscious thought (which is not necessarily to say from the dots). When I make a mistake in these, I have to *think* my way out of the mistake next time through the tune. Of course I make no claims that this applies to anyone else.....
Steve
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 13, 2013, 12:44:44 PM
' concentrating on what I'm doing, but not too hard.....'
Yes that's the secret!
I find if I can somehow relax and let my mind almost wander, but somehow keep the 'background' part of it subconsciously focussed on the tune then it's my ideal state and tunes seem to flow.
I'm sure there's a strange psychological name for this altered state, but it is nevertheless the point at which I can play best. I suppose the trick is to learn to get into that frame of mind quickly, whereupon you unlock your inate ability without thinking about it.

That's ok for playing tunes, but learning them is another totally different matter...... and another thread entirely!
Q
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Will Allen on January 13, 2013, 01:12:49 PM
'Don't think of it as practice, just playing' Andy Cutting, and I agree with him, the moment you call it practice it becomes strict and a chore, just play for the enjoyment of it and you will just do the things you like creating your own style and variations on tunes. Also every time I make a mistake I think about how I could do It again in slightly different ways to make the tune more exciting and/or add to my collection of techniques.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Accordion Dave on January 13, 2013, 03:32:33 PM
I keep making mistakes when people completely derail my playing by talking to me whilst I am playing by ear.

The best way I can describe the way I play is that my mind is like a phonograph record playing back melodies that I have learned.

When someone bumps into a gramophone, the needle goes skidding across the disc and the tune is lost. 

If I was a true machine, I could totally ignore the person speaking, but they want an immediate response to their question about sports, politics, or religion.

Sometimes they just want to tell me to stop playing so an announcement can be made. I wish they would let me finish the verse of the song.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Keithypete. on January 13, 2013, 03:44:44 PM
The problem I have, is because I play B/C there is a very good chance that the the bum note ISN'T in the right key.
I think it would be fair to say my playing is better than this time last year, & I make fewer mistakes, but I still get frustrated by those that I do make.
I'm sure the desire to be better is a good starting point on the journey to being better.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: boxer on January 13, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
good point

tune for tune, the odds of hitting a howlingly inappropriate note are far higher on B/C than on D/G

semitone boxes are harsh mistresses
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: boxcall on January 13, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
As a carpenter there are always mistakes ( cut it three times and it's still to short ) but it's how you fix it or work your way out of the problem that
shows the good from the not so good.  (this is when you send the apprentice to the truck to get the board stretcher )

I was at a session this past Fri. and noticed that when I was concentrating on what was being play and not focusing on what I was doing that the tunes where just flowing on there own and I was playing better. Until it was my turn start a tune and the nerves kick in I could still play but it felt more forced.

I also find if I play with some passion or gusto things go better ( this is a tip my teacher gave me)
As the Bobby Mcfarland  tune goes   "don't worry be happy" words to play music and to live by. 

Michael
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 13, 2013, 06:18:19 PM
Bobby McFerrin.....but we know what you mean!!  ;) :|glug

Graham
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: boxcall on January 13, 2013, 06:32:30 PM
Bobby McFerrin.....but we know what you mean!!  ;) :|glug

Graham
Thanks Graham
I thought that was wrong but didn't check
Michael
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Ryall on January 13, 2013, 09:00:27 PM
Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......

Concur.  But if you were an improviser, Steve ... they actually teach you on Stage Impro:  "And if you strike a bum note - make sure you repeat the same note next time through. They'll think you did it on purpose, and are cool!

NB This does not apply to eg hitting major 3rd C# against an Am chord  :-\
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: langleymick on January 13, 2013, 09:36:00 PM
The more you whittle about it the more mistakes you'll make.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Martyn on January 13, 2013, 11:27:28 PM
If you find you keep making the mistake in the same place you could try just repeating that section of the tune over and over again until it's gone into your muscle memory. Sometimes a few days or a weeks break from playing will really help, it seems to freshen up your playing and your enthusiasm.

Martyn
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Howard Jones on January 14, 2013, 12:22:13 AM
I'm sure there's a strange psychological name for this altered state,

Drunk?  :|glug  :D
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Andrew Shead on January 14, 2013, 02:08:14 AM
Oh and there is a third strategy: Don't play the  worrying bit. If it's just too hard to do I change it. A long note instead of an arpeggio or ornamentation - something like that.

Yes, in his book Swann's Way Donald Swann said that he played in a style that is easy for him. Once a friend was watching while I played piano with the dots on the stand and commented that I wasn't playing what was written; I said no, it's just a recommendation.

A calm, internal mental state focused on the present moment helps.

I suppose a musical free-for-all is OK for individual players, but more problematic when something like Knees-up Mother Brown makes an uncalled for appearance in the middle of Morris evolutions.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Sage Herb on January 14, 2013, 06:17:03 AM
Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......

Concur.  But if you were an improviser, Steve ... they actually teach you on Stage Impro:  "And if you strike a bum note - make sure you repeat the same note next time through. They'll think you did it on purpose, and are cool!

NB This does not apply to eg hitting major 3rd C# against an Am chord  :-\

Well I do improvise quite a bit (though much more radically on gob-harp than melodeon) but it's more instinctive than the conscious choice of notes that Chris's post implies. My mistakes aren't usually a wrong note, but rather a clumsily executed passage. Everything that's been said about making mistakes with aplomb is of course correct, as the audience rarely notices and certainly doesn't remember. And yes, Martyn, playing every day isn't necessarily the best practice strategy (once you've played for some years).
Steve
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Brimley on January 14, 2013, 08:13:57 AM
One thing about playing the box for me is that it does require pretty much total and uninterrupted attention - I was playing in a session last night and totally lost it when playing a set I can normally play without any trouble, simply because I realised that I was going to have to tell everyone else to move onto the next tune, but because of the unfamiliar seat I was on, I couldn't easily wave a leg.  So I said 'Next!' instead, and my fingers immediately completely forgot where they were.  With playing guitar, somehow it's less demanding of your total attention (presumably because you're not trying to do so many things at once rather than because it's in any way easier technically), and I'm sure I wouldn't have had that trouble.  I've never really looked at it that way before, but I think this must be the reason that I find performing on the box has more pitfalls than performing on the guitar.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: IanD on January 14, 2013, 01:48:04 PM
Indeed we are and we do. What I find more galling is my tendency to repeat the mistake next time through the tune - not always, but too often......

Concur.  But if you were an improviser, Steve ... they actually teach you on Stage Impro:  "And if you strike a bum note - make sure you repeat the same note next time through. They'll think you did it on purpose, and are cool!

NB This does not apply to eg hitting major 3rd C# against an Am chord  :-\
Unless you're Ralph Jordan or playing free jazz...
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Ryall on January 14, 2013, 02:35:22 PM
 ::) I think the 'sudden death' rule about playing major 3rds when you are over a minor even applied to God Coltrane, Davis, Hancock etc. Certainly when we had a whole morning of 'free impro' over Am/Am6 back in 2010 (Brubeck's Take Five is another good example of playing over a single minor chord) .. all notes apart from *C#  :o happened at some stage - but you are welcome to try it  ;)

But we digress: The issue (as Steve says) is that should you make a mistake in play, to repeat it in any AABB structure of a tune.  Audiences are enormously flexible in such matters, and actually seem to prefer to think you did it on purpose!  :|glug


Incidentally the reverse does not apply - playing a minor third when the chord is major is perfectly OK - indeed much of Blues is grounded on doing exactly that!
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Stiamh on January 14, 2013, 03:17:52 PM
Pete - how many of your mistakes involve using the r-h little finger?

Only half winding you up.  >:E

Practising when you're totally knackered is often counter-productive not to mention demoralizing.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Graham Spencer on January 14, 2013, 03:23:48 PM
The issue (as Steve says) is that should you make a mistake in play, to repeat it in any AABB structure of a tune.  Audiences are enormously flexible in such matters, and actually seem to prefer to think you did it on purpose!

Assuming, of course, that in the heat of the moment you can analyse what you did wrong, anticipate the point when it comes round again, and reconstruct the offending phrase exactly!  >:E >:E ;D

Graham
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Keithypete. on January 14, 2013, 10:05:37 PM
Steve - just seen your post! I don't know, but obviously now I am going to be very conscious of what Sammy Small is doing, aren't I. The point I made, & the point you also rightly make is about practicing when fatigued. I've had a rest since the O P, and seem to have got my mojo back, somewhat.

As for bum notes being, or more importantly NOT being in the right key, hitting D# when aiming for F# is very jarring! (Sad face)
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Chris Ryall on January 14, 2013, 11:44:35 PM
Assuming, of course, that in the heat of the moment you can analyse what you did wrong, anticipate the point when it comes round again, and reconstruct the offending phrase exactly!  >:E >:E ;D Graham

I know where you are coming from, but generally it's 2, commonly one button wrong, and second time round .. well there are options but we're exploring doing the same thing again. Not really all that hard as you only took that path seconds ago.   I guess that's also to say that 'practising making mistakes' is also a good thing  ::)  Funny old world, isn't it?
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Rob2Hook on January 19, 2013, 12:57:18 AM
Not exactly practicing, but playing when knackered I often fall asleep.  You get a whole new crop of aches and pains when you wake up still strapped into a box!

We all keep making mistakes because we're human and our minds wander from the task at hand.  The most perfect performances are always at home with no distractions and ideally eyes closed.  That's why I practice with the TV on so there are distractions - so get used to it.  Apart from those crash and burn moments when starting a tune in a session, my most common train crash is when playing in company and I stop listening to myself and take a close interest in how someone else is playing.

Rob.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 19, 2013, 10:17:32 AM
This distratction idea is quite interesting.
I too sometimes play whilst watching the tv on mute - football or something mindless like it, not often but sometimes - and at times seem to play quite well.
Whether it's because something is taking my mind away from concentrating or worrying  too much, so I relax and play more fluently?
Dunno what's the reason but it is an interesting phenomenon and one I've noticed over the years.
Q
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Anahata on January 19, 2013, 01:35:32 PM
I too sometimes play whilst watching the tv on mute - football or something mindless like it, not often but sometimes - and at times seem to play quite well.

Possibly, but I think what Rob2Hook is referring to is something that's been mentioned on melnet (or somewhere similar) before, which is that if you always practice at home in the same room, you'll get put off when you get in front of an audience just because everything you see and hear around you is different, therefore you should spend some time playing in every room of the house, maybe outdoors, facing in different directions, with or without other people around (or the TV on, perhaps) so you aren't phased by different surroundings.

In particular, I remember times when I've been put off by playing in a different acoustic from the one I'm used to.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Rob2Hook on January 19, 2013, 02:46:33 PM
Well yes, anything can be distracting though my preference is a lovely girl dancing well...  At least with that one I can just play to her alone, safe in the knowledge that she'll never know.  As for accoustics, it isn't unusual for the foldback to be less effective once the dance starts than it was on setting-up.  That generally results in a more lively performance as I have to play with more gusto so I can hear the echo coming back off the far wall!

Rob.
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 19, 2013, 03:04:54 PM

Possibly, but I think what Rob2Hook is referring to is something that's been mentioned on melnet (or somewhere similar) before, which is that if you always practice at home in the same room, you'll get put off when you get in front of an audience just because everything you see and hear around you is different [snip]
Agreed, the first time I played a concertina in a hall instead of a small room I completely lost it. Initially I thought the concertina was broken!
Title: Re: Why do I KEEP making mistakes???????
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 19, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
ahhhh yes I understand......
When it's possible I do move around a bit and even have been known to venture outside to play though not last 'summer' obviously  ;D
I am reminded of this the other day when I sat in the conservatory to play ( not my usual haunt ) and the accoustics were amazing, lack of carpets and soft fusrnishings made the box sound quite different and bright and I actually tlhought about this different effect it had as it happens.
Q
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