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Discussions => Recordings and Videos => Topic started by: Mike Hirst on June 28, 2013, 12:15:50 AM

Title: hardcore hohner
Post by: Mike Hirst on June 28, 2013, 12:15:50 AM
I was gonna post this in the recent belly dance thread, but it doesn't quite fit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B0S8I5vLKg

I'd be interested if anyone knows anything about this music, style, origin, etc..

There's plenty of this stuff on youtube. Some of which would challenge even the most fervent accordion nut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjwWpyoqOI

I think it comes from Turkey, possibly Çanakkale province.

In this vid we get to see some dancing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLG5HqFjMA

googling the word nartajans (seen the bottom RH corner of the youtube posting) brings up links to a Crircassian culture site, this could be the original Circassian Circle dance!!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: smiley on June 28, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
In this vid we get to see some dancing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLG5HqFjMA

I couldn't watch the whole 12mins+ but it began to get interesting about 20secs from the end...
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 28, 2013, 08:01:03 AM
Not a clue. There's probably structure in there, I find it hard to perceive.

[Edit] The dancing one makes more sense musically, still no ideas though. We need a proper ethnomusicologist!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: dunlustin on June 28, 2013, 01:16:09 PM
Well I reckon the music is only there because the dancers are - not a bad principle.
As to the dancing I found it fascinating. From the dress variations it doesn't seem ultra conservative.
On the other hand there seem to be obvious taboos - men apart from women, the bow at the end of each dance which could be a touch but isn't quite, the girls not turning their backs as they leave the floor. Sometimes it looks as if one dancer initiates a move and a partner copies it. There aso seems to be a lot of flirting + seeing how close you can get without infringing some convention. Also As with other posters I have no idea what is going on but it's compulsive viewing.
One other thing - how do you guys stumble on these amazing finds?
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Theo on June 28, 2013, 01:25:42 PM
There's plenty of this stuff on youtube. Some of which would challenge even the most fervent accordion nut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjwWpyoqOI

I think it comes from Turkey, possibly Çanakkale province.


I think I've seen this lady busking in Newcastle. ;D
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 28, 2013, 01:27:52 PM
One other thing - how do you guys stumble on these amazing finds?

.. have melodeon, will travel! Got my first breton festival next month, hopefully Québéc in the Fall :P
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 28, 2013, 04:04:11 PM
i know what this music and who the people are..I am one of them...i will post more info very soon..
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 28, 2013, 04:56:12 PM
Brilliant, look forward to that.  ;D
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 28, 2013, 10:44:43 PM
Well, lets start with a a brief history and geography lesson. This music, dancing, people are all of Circassian origin, and I am one of them, like i mentioned in an earlier post. My ancestors are from the region called the North Caucasus on the coast of the Black Sea in Russia. The region is made up of small republics, a few of them are, Adygea, Kabardeya, Chechnya, Abkhazia to name just a few. These are collectively known as the North Caucasus and the people are called Circassians. They have their own language, not dialect, music, traditions food are exclusive to that region. How these people came to be in Turkey is the history now !! 150 years ago, Russians drove out these people from their homelands. There was mass genocide and the Circassians had become one of the first stateless peoples in modern history. They fled from the North Caucasus across the Black Sea into what was then "The Ottoman Empire". They settled in and around the empire which is now known as the Republic of Turkey. 150 years later, our culture, language, food, music and dance is very much alive. My great grandfather had travelled the treacherous journey and settled in the north of Turkey. And this is how we became Turkish citizens. We embrace our homeland and our birth country too.                       

  The music and the rhythm is based on the walk of the horse. The horse is very symbolic and important in this culture as the horse was part of the family so to speak. The mans dancing moves mimics the horses behaviour. Circassian music originally, before the melodeon was a string instrument, that was played with a bow.  With time, the instruments evolved and thus we came to discover the melodeon and followed by the piano key accordion. The melodeon is the only instrument now that speaks our native language and expresses our life and feelings. Well observed by dunlustin. In fact your observation was almost spot on, very impressed !!! Circassian culture is very strict on respect. Respect for elders is paramount, respect for women, well everyone really. So at a wedding or dancing time, there would be no contact and yes there is flirting but its harmless banter and never crude. Some regions will have a dance at the beginning of an event and some at the end. This dance is the only one in which there would be contact. A guy would go up to a girl and ask to be a partner bit like country dancing. It is only then during the wedding will they have a chance to speak. At the end of the other dances, both the girl and the boy should NOT turn their backs as this is considered very rude. Also it is upto the girl to finish the dance.
To be honest I could go on and on about our culture it is very complex and leads to so many other topics. I don't want to bore you but this is just a few basics. If you want to know more I would be glad to write more !!!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: smiley on June 28, 2013, 11:52:20 PM
Thanks invadm for your informative background to Circassian dance music. You & Mike Hurst have opened the door to another world of melodeon playing I'd never heard of.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: rees on June 29, 2013, 12:27:16 AM
Thank you, invade. Very interesting to hear about your culture.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: oolong32 on June 29, 2013, 01:49:45 AM
Next Theme of the month: Circassian dance music. ABCs please!  :||:
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 29, 2013, 02:13:59 PM
I couldn't watch the whole 12mins+ but it began to get interesting about 20secs from the end...

I'm surprised, I was enthralled by the whole thing! Many thanks to invadm for such a concise and informative introduction to the Circassian culture, fascinating stuff!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 29, 2013, 02:48:46 PM
Next Theme of the month: Circassian dance music. ABCs please!  :||:
I am not a great dancer but fortunately I am quite a good melodeon player of Circassian music and I happen to live in London, and I am more than happy to share my music with anyone who is interested !
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on June 29, 2013, 02:50:19 PM
I was gonna post this in the recent belly dance thread, but it doesn't quite fit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B0S8I5vLKg

I'd be interested if anyone knows anything about this music, style, origin, etc..

There's plenty of this stuff on youtube. Some of which would challenge even the most fervent accordion nut



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjwWpyoqOI

I think it comes from Turkey, possibly Çanakkale province.

In this vid we get to see some dancing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLG5HqFjMA

googling the word nartajans (seen the bottom RH corner of the youtube posting) brings up links to a Crircassian culture site, this could be the original Circassian Circle dance!!

It's pretty obvious the lady is not playing at all, just puffing the bellows in and out. Are you sure this has not been put up by Borat ( aka Sasha Baron Cohen)
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: dunlustin on June 29, 2013, 06:55:17 PM
What amazing good luck for melnet that invadm stumbled on the OP - and for him to be living in London.
By the way, thank you for your kind words.
I found the video quite moving - 2 reasons off the top of my head:
1.The clear authenticity of the dancing.
2. The music is servant to the occasion and the dance.
Personally I would really like to know more.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 29, 2013, 09:52:51 PM
Ditto, I'd sort of half connected Circassian with the Greater Caucasian mountains, but this has been an eye opener.  (well done, Mike) There are many references to beautiful Circassian women in British literature incidentally, eg Byron, and including (I suspect)

   And the Georgia boys with their greedy eyes,
   Coveted our daughters
(Ralph McTell, 70's)

They really do hav the most greedy eyes! Another cultural thing perhaps?

More Circassian stuff please, and congratulations on your perfect English.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 30, 2013, 12:30:57 AM
   And the Georgia boys with their greedy eyes,
   Coveted our daughters
(Ralph McTell, 70's)

The Gypsy from Ralph's 1972 'Not Till Tomorrow' Album, a song I've often wondered about. It's a toss up between that LP and 'Easy' for his best ever work, but definitely his best period.

I would like to know more of the Circassian culture but I fear it's well off topic for this forum.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 30, 2013, 12:56:33 AM
Not in this thread, if they really do it with melodeons ::)
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 12:20:12 PM


It's pretty obvious the lady is not playing at all, just puffing the bellows in and out. Are you sure this has not been put up by Borat ( aka Sasha Baron Cohen)
[/quote]

It is not a prank from Borat for sure !!  :D  This lady probably hasn't played in a long while and is rusty. This tune is one of the classics from teh Abkhazian region called APSUWA KOSARA, you can find plenty more on you tube if you type that in. http://www.apsuvara.org/videolar/videobak/96/mzka/mzka-bck-cekim.html  - this might be a better example of melodeon playing by circassians!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Pete Dunk on June 30, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
This more formal style caught my eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48YUzaBXTGE).
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 12:48:56 PM

 Invadm, thanks for the background info, very interesting, I'd like to hear your stuff if you have recorded any, or if you could explain a bit more about how a tune or a performance is put together, this is some good music that I don't totally understand yet.  How much of a tune is fixed and how much is improvised or added by the player
[/quote]

I have tried to upload some of my own clips but they seem to be too big for this site. I will try to reduce them and try to re-post.
The tunes go back hundreds of years and none of them are written. They are handed down from generation to generation purely by ear. I learned to play these tunes from my grandfather, he knew nothing about reading music so he must have learned these tunes by ear too from his elders. Mostly all tunes are fixed, there is always a beginning a middle and end and the dancers follow the music.  Generally the tunes are not too long but constantly repeated as it comes to the end, you would start again from the beginning without stopping.  There are many known lyrics and are mostly love stories or about the diaspora, the longing for their homeland. When I watched RIVERDANCE for the first time, I thought then it was very similar to my culture.
Every melodeon player would have their own style and a little twist to the tune, but the core of the music will be pretty much the same.

Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 01:02:13 PM
   And the Georgia boys with their greedy eyes,
   Coveted our daughters
(Ralph McTell, 70's)

They really do hav the most greedy eyes! Another cultural thing perhaps?

More Circassian stuff please, and congratulations on your perfect English.
[/quote]

It's not just the melodeon and the dancing that is apparent in our culture, Circassian girls are very well known for their beauty, elegancy and their hourglass figure. But now, thanks to McDonalds and KFC's and pizza hut and turkish doner's our girls seem to have grown a little, i personally blame GM food ! ;D !!!! One of the most impressive talents of our girls is if they can play the melodeon whilst dancing !!
I must say though, the girl playing in this clip is very good, this is father and daughter, they have a clip in which they play together it is amazingly in sync, brilliant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdZIPaCrArA

Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 01:11:21 PM
This more formal style caught my eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48YUzaBXTGE).

There a many dance groups within Turkey and of course back in the Caucasus.   You're right, it is a more formal dance as dance ensembles are usually for show. However, in these dance groups the instrument changes from melodeon to accordions or the russian made garmonica.
The most well known and famous professional dance group is called NALMES there are plenty of their clips from their shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKaOPzjTDW4
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 01:19:25 PM

I would like to know more of the Circassian culture but I fear it's well off topic for this forum.

It is very difficult to explain the melodeon playing in this culture without going into a bit of history. It wasn't my intention to go into the culture, however the melodeon played a very significant and important role in music. Obviously, times have changed and so has the instruments now there are very few authentic melodeon players in Turkey. The younger generation have adopted the piano accordion and the melodeon players are becoming extinct !! :(   There are a few enthusiasts who still are eager to teach their melodeon skills and are running courses in teaching young players.  :||:

Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on June 30, 2013, 01:25:43 PM

googling the word nartajans (seen the bottom RH corner of the youtube posting) brings up links to a Crircassian culture site, this could be the original Circassian Circle dance!!
[/quote]

NARTAJANS is a media establishment which is aimed at the circassians living in Turkey. They try to collect data and bring it all together under one roof. Music and dance changes from region to region and NARTAJANS tries to collate all this data from all over Turkey. It's difficult not to go into more info but there are Circassians that also settled in, Syria, Jordan, Israel, even as far as USA, therefore the music and instruments change.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 30, 2013, 01:45:50 PM
Could you please add in explicit {button to press} instruction in any examples. My written Nartajan is "pitifully weak to non existent" ;) and even Google translate doesn't yet go there

But do keep this coming, lovely and lively!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: waltzman on June 30, 2013, 03:17:53 PM

I would like to know more of the Circassian culture but I fear it's well off topic for this forum.

It is very difficult to explain the melodeon playing in this culture without going into a bit of history. It wasn't my intention to go into the culture, however the melodeon played a very significant and important role in music. Obviously, times have changed and so has the instruments now there are very few authentic melodeon players in Turkey. The younger generation have adopted the piano accordion and the melodeon players are becoming extinct !! :(   There are a few enthusiasts who still are eager to teach their melodeon skills and are running courses in teaching young players.  :||:

I'm really surprised that the piano accordion would displace the melodeon for this type of dance music.  The melodeon really shines in its ability to create punchy rhythmic music for dancing.  This is very hard to do on the PA.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Mystery Jig on June 30, 2013, 10:12:50 PM
I've learned so much! Thanks! Don't stop now!  :||:
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on July 01, 2013, 12:19:27 AM
Could you please add in explicit {button to press} instruction in any examples. My written Nartajan is "pitifully weak to non existent" ;) and even Google translate doesn't yet go there

But do keep this coming, lovely and lively!

Nartajans is a media group which collates and collects all kinds of news and info specifically for circassians in Turkey, and therefore the Nartajan website is in Turkish. For info on melodeons it is not the best source for this music.  I will keep you posted for better examples. 
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: invadm on July 01, 2013, 12:34:22 AM

[/quote]

I'm really surprised that the piano accordion would displace the melodeon for this type of dance music.  The melodeon really shines in its ability to create punchy rhythmic music for dancing.  This is very hard to do on the PA.
[/quote]

The melodeon is almost exclusive to the Circassians living in Turkey. The circassians in the motherland plays the PA and the Russian made "garmon". My guess is that after the circassians settled in the, then Ottoman empire, discovered melodeons and adapted. Going back in history, you will find there was a strong connection between Germany and the Ottoman Empire. Of course there are many makers and makes of melodeons, but the most widely known and used by circassians in Turkey is HOHNER C/F.

When the iron curtain fell, turkish circassian started to travel to motherland together with developing technology "www." the younger generation started to listen and discover the PA was actually used in the motherland as opposed to the melodeon.  The circassians in the motherland or any other circassians ie, ones in Jordan, Syria, etc wouldn't know the tunes of the melodeon itself. Actual fact is that the Circassians living in Turkey believe that the melodeon is purely for their own music and that no-one else would know about it. When I told them there are melodeon players in UK and that I met a few of them, the reaction I got was "how do they know about melodeons" ? !! ???
They strongly believe that the melodeon only speaks their language and in fact they refer to the instrument as "circassian melodeons" ! :||:
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Matthew B on July 01, 2013, 03:45:48 PM
"Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship"
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: hionay on July 04, 2013, 01:05:24 PM
This is from Black Sea of Turkey folk music. Usually played with Hohner 1-row:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjQQLlYQoDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5SzyQmmPeg

and its dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOOup5nXx8M

Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: hionay on July 04, 2013, 01:26:48 PM
It'll be message flood but I couldn't edit my previous post.

I can post more videos if any of you interested.

This music is played only in Rize (Turkey / Black Sea) and It's only played on a row with blocking G/C bass usually.

We dance with this music and name of the dance is "Horon".

Also we call this instrument(Hohner 1 or 2 rows melodeons) in our city(Rize) "Armonik" or "Mozika".

There is a facebook page that I own and upload all of this videos who plays that kind of music with melodeons.

To see all melodeon and dance videos:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=vb.218421751508137&type=2


Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Mike Hirst on July 04, 2013, 03:39:21 PM
To see all melodeon and dance videos:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=vb.218421751508137&type=2

This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: rees on July 04, 2013, 03:54:39 PM
Great stuff, many thanks. The humble one-row strikes again!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: smiley on July 05, 2013, 08:03:57 AM
To see all melodeon and dance videos:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=vb.218421751508137&type=2

This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing.

Same for me. I never would've guessed a melodeon could play dance music like this.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: nfldbox on July 05, 2013, 12:03:14 PM
To repeat Rees: Great stuff.  Your ability, invadm, to add so much information so fully and clearly, in what I assume is a second language, is quite amazing.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: btracy on July 10, 2013, 02:39:57 PM
There's plenty of this stuff on youtube. Some of which would challenge even the most fervent accordion nut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjwWpyoqOI


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p-1he_d5JRE/UPYP6gg5ckI/AAAAAAAAAL8/73w1d3nWz2s/s400/Vurt+Da+Furk.jpg)
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: btracy on July 10, 2013, 02:41:10 PM
In this vid we get to see some dancing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLG5HqFjMA

The beginning of this had a nice cajun sound to it, at least it seemed that way to me.  I liked this music the best of what was posted here.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Anahata on July 01, 2018, 10:58:28 PM
The melodeon is almost exclusive to the Circassians living in Turkey. The circassians in the motherland plays the PA and the Russian made "garmon". My guess is that after the circassians settled in the, then Ottoman empire, discovered melodeons and adapted. Going back in history, you will find there was a strong connection between Germany and the Ottoman Empire. Of course there are many makers and makes of melodeons, but the most widely known and used by circassians in Turkey is HOHNER C/F.
...
They strongly believe that the melodeon only speaks their language and in fact they refer to the instrument as "circassian melodeons" !


Reviving an old thread to let people know that this weekend I had the privilege of recording a whole CD full of our own Invadm 's music. It's fabulous - I'm playing my own copy of it now and really enjoying it. Mostly played on a C/F Erica but for the last track, on a last minute flash of inspiration, he borrowed my Hohner 1 row 4 stop C box and it fitted the tune perfectly. 

Though I had a slight initial reaction typical of listening to music from another culture that it "all sounds the same" I'm now quickly learning to hear all the variety in it. Beautifully played and compulsive, hypnotic listening, and he plays it regularly for dancing at weddings and other social events.

I've learned SO much about Circassian culture yesterday!

(I'm not trying to sell anything - only 25 CDs burned so far for friends and family. I think we're waiting to see if there's demand for more than that, but that part of things is out of my hands, and I won't publish any of it on the web without permission)
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Pete Dunk on July 02, 2018, 12:18:30 AM
I've learned SO much about Circassian culture yesterday!

(I'm not trying to sell anything - only 25 CDs burned so far for friends and family. I think we're waiting to see if there's demand for more than that, but that part of things is out of my hands, and I won't publish any of it on the web without permission)

I would buy a copy without question. Anahata, I think we all know you well enough to know that you wouldn't ever sell anything for personal gain without saying so and if you thought it was worth it I'd probably buy it anyway just on your say so. I don't care where in the world it comes from, a good tune is just that and is guaranteed to make me smile, so I'll welcome it into my repertoire with many thanks. Get it out there!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: syale on July 04, 2018, 04:23:12 PM
Mostly played on a C/F Erica but for the last track, on a last minute flash of inspiration, he borrowed my Hohner 1 row 4 stop C box and it fitted the tune perfectly. 

What is the name of the track?
Stephen
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Anahata on July 04, 2018, 05:25:05 PM
"Wuig" (which is only an approximation to the Turkish/Circassian name)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1JmelDMYQ is an example on YouTube of something similar in speed and rhythm, though I suspect that example is played on PA.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Anahata on July 06, 2018, 05:17:59 PM
OK, for the terminally curious I now have permission to publish This video (https://www.treewind.co.uk/studio/mustafa.php) where we are making a short test recording of the first track, and to use it to promote my new home studio.

Though the sound there is from the iPhone that was used to shoot the video, even that is better than the few examples of this kind of music that can be found on YouTube, perhaps because of the studio acoustics and certainly helped by lack of extraneous background noise.

(The rest of the web site is due for a rewrite, it's looking a bit old and isn't all small-screen friendly)
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Anahata on July 06, 2018, 07:15:59 PM
There wasn't any orientation problem here. (Linux, Firefox or Chrome) nor on my phone.
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Winston Smith on July 06, 2018, 07:24:05 PM
It's also fine here in the NE.
By the way, I'm glad that your surgery went OK, now just be careful for a while and do as they tell you!
Title: Re: hardcore hohner
Post by: Anahata on July 06, 2018, 09:51:15 PM
I have recoded the video so it doesn't rely on "rotate 90°" instructions in the metadata, and it should now show correctly for everyone.
If that's fixed it for you, I'd love to know...
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