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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: 911377brian on July 16, 2013, 10:10:43 PM

Title: New York Gals
Post by: 911377brian on July 16, 2013, 10:10:43 PM
I've been singing' New York Gals' for about 60years and playing it on melodeon for a bit over a year and have always been puzzled by ....'away you shanty' in the chorus. I've come across several versions of the tune but 'away you shanty' is always there. I'm pretty sure the song isn't a shanty, [could get shot down for that] so what does it mean? In passing, I was told recently that the Martin Churchill mentioned was a notorious crimp; anyone care to confirm? ???
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: nudiefish on July 16, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
I'm not sure, but in old Aussie slang a "shanty" is a rough - often illegal - bush pub.  Given that most Aussie slang originated in England it might have an English source?  One of its meanings means a roughly built dewling, as our bush pubs used to be - hence the modern description of third-world camps as "shanty-towns". 

Of course, all this is highly speculative and probably plain wrong because "away you shanty" in the context of New York girls makes as much sense as the Winter Olympics. 
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Pete Dunk on July 16, 2013, 11:26:23 PM
Well, I've never thought it was shanty, it always sounded more like 'santy' and took it to be an abbreviation for Santa Anna but I've no idea why and it certainly doesn't make any sense. I've no idea what a notorious crimp is either and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I really care. I've always known this song as New York Girls btw, there aren't many 'gals' in Airedale!

A now defunct forum I frequented a few years ago had a delightfully funny thread on 'misheard lyrics', just saying like . . .  ;D
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 16, 2013, 11:41:40 PM
A now defunct forum I frequented a few years ago had a delightfully funny thread on 'misheard lyrics', just saying like . . .  ;D
Aha! Mondegreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen) - I love 'em!
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Sage Herb on July 17, 2013, 12:10:40 AM
A now defunct forum I frequented a few years ago had a delightfully funny thread on 'misheard lyrics', just saying like . . .  ;D
Aha! Mondegreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen) - I love 'em!

And many more here too: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/mondegre.htm
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Sage Herb on July 17, 2013, 12:21:08 AM
Well, I've never thought it was shanty, it always sounded more like 'santy' and took it to be an abbreviation for Santa Anna but I've no idea why and it certainly doesn't make any sense. I've no idea what a notorious crimp is either and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I really care.

A crimp is/was something like the merchant fleet equivalent of the pressgang, an individual who would employ devious means to supply ('shanghai') crew members (often with little or no seagoing experience) to skippers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: LDbosca on July 17, 2013, 03:14:13 AM
"Away!", you shanty, as in chanter....like "'Away', you sing!"?? My reckoning.
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Mystery Jig on July 17, 2013, 04:08:41 AM
I think it's more often heard as "sanity." If so, there's a theory of sorts near the end of the discussion here...

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=72420
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Graham Spencer on July 17, 2013, 05:06:29 AM
I've always known it as "santy" as well; Stan Hugill gives "Santy", "Santee" and "Santi", but doesn't offer any explanation of its meaning (though he does regard it as a proper noun).
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Lester on July 17, 2013, 07:43:20 AM
The song was just ahead of its time:

Santy is a computer worm created in Perl to exploit a vulnerability in phpBB software which used Google to spread across the internet.
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: 911377brian on July 17, 2013, 10:40:05 AM
On checking the various hand written versions I've got about the place it does seem that Shanty, Santy , Santi  are interchangeable. This has become the equivalent of an earworm, taking up too much of my failing brain capacity.... ???
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Daddy Long Les on July 17, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
A now defunct forum I frequented a few years ago had a delightfully funny thread on 'misheard lyrics', just saying like . . .  ;D
Aha! Mondegreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen) - I love 'em!

My mum was famous for singing that well known Neil Diamond song Reverend Blue Jeans - more commonly known as Forever In Blue Jeans!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: rees on July 17, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
A now defunct forum I frequented a few years ago had a delightfully funny thread on 'misheard lyrics', just saying like . . .  ;D
Aha! Mondegreens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen) - I love 'em!

My mum was famous for singing that well known Neil Diamond song Reverend Blue Jeans - more commonly known as Forever In Blue Jeans!! ;D ;D

My mate used to begin Whiter Shade of Pale with "Skip a life, and dangle"
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: ladydetemps on July 17, 2013, 05:38:24 PM
Mondgreens, don't you eat those with roast beef and potatoes?
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Chris Ryall on July 17, 2013, 05:59:16 PM
Sir,

I've just heard the first "double Mondgreen" of the summer! Is this a record?

Yours etc  ::)

Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Ollie on July 18, 2013, 12:58:54 AM
Since when did folk song choruses have to make sense?  ::)


A bit of research on the Full English shows that Grainger's collected version from London in 1907 has the following chorus:

"Away Lannie, my dear Lannie
Away you New York girls, can't you dance the polka?"

http://www.vwml.org.uk/record/PG/5/121

I too have always heard 'santy' rather than 'shanty', but it seems possible that Lannie, or Annie, could have devolved into santy or shanty over time, possibly to make it scan better and avoid repetition. I have absolutely no evidence, other than the Grainger manuscript, to support this - just a little hypothesis.
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on July 18, 2013, 08:11:50 AM
Ooh, ooh, ooh,  me ears are alight  >:E
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: ladydetemps on July 18, 2013, 08:23:30 AM
Not shandy as in the drink then? ;)
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: ocajun on July 18, 2013, 10:49:02 AM
A few shandies may often have been a factor. For that reason, among others, I'm going to carry on with "Santy, my dear Annie" and put it down to a reference, of no obvious relevance, to the Mexican chap (who has his very own sailor song, anyway). It fits and I'll get confused if I try and change it. Worse, the rest of the band would probably get confused as well. It is hard enough making sure that Joe and I are singing the same thing at the same time, when that is called for, at the best of times.
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Ranzo on January 16, 2014, 09:25:40 PM
I ran across this old thread while searching for something else.

I study chanties and their history, so I can shed some light on this.

Yes, "New York Gals" is a chanty. I don't know of this song as such ever being noted (historically, Age of Sail) as anything but. However, the style of it is that of a popular song; it is without the really particular "chanty" qualities. For this reason, it cannot work for any hauling actions. That also means it's likely that the chanty was based in a popular song.

The vast majority of documented versions have "Santy" (or some variation in spelling).

I have found a minstrel song, called "Cynthia Sue," that has a very similar tune and similar scansion as "New York Gals," also with certain words or rhymes in the right places. In the corresponding place to "Santy" is "Cynthia."

I think "Santy" is a degeneration of "Cynthia" (or Cynthy or Cindy).

Incidentally, the tune works very well on accordion because it has the pattern of (descending) Ti-La-Fa-Re which is characteristic of the draw notes!
Title: Re: New York Gals
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 16, 2014, 09:43:49 PM
I ran across this old thread while searching for something else.

I study chanties and their history, so I can shed some light on this.

Yes, "New York Gals" is a chanty. I don't know of this song as such ever being noted (historically, Age of Sail) as anything but. However, the style of it is that of a popular song; it is without the really particular "chanty" qualities. For this reason, it cannot work for any hauling actions. That also means it's likely that the chanty was based in a popular song.

The vast majority of documented versions have "Santy" (or some variation in spelling).

I have found a minstrel song, called "Cynthia Sue," that has a very similar tune and similar scansion as "New York Gals," also with certain words or rhymes in the right places. In the corresponding place to "Santy" is "Cynthia."

I think "Santy" is a degeneration of "Cynthia" (or Cynthy or Cindy).

Incidentally, the tune works very well on accordion because it has the pattern of (descending) Ti-La-Fa-Re which is characteristic of the draw notes!

 You should email my friend Tom Lewis. He's very much into this type of research ,a brilliant shanty singer and findable on Google " Self Propelled Music"

Tell him I sent you. ;D
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