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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Atzarin on August 26, 2013, 11:50:24 PM

Title: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Atzarin on August 26, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
I've recently read several different past threads which comment on "diddly diddly" music, fast playing and the relationship between music and the dance and other threads about row crossing, where a clear distinction is made between the "English style" and "Continental style".

A lot of the comments have made me wonder what an English melodeon player's impression of Basque melodeon technique might be. I was born and brought up in England, but my exposure to diatonic accordion has been in the Basque Country, where I've been living for the past 20 years.

The comments about "diddly diddly" music in the threads mentioned above are often made in relation to Irish music on the melodeon and seem to show a general dislike of what is considered to be high speed playing. I've not heard much Irish music on the melodeon myself. However, compared to a lot of Basque trikitixa, the so called "fast" Irish music I have heard by following links from different threads doesn't seem so fast. The same might be said about the dance that is associated with each kind of music.

As for the the debate about row crossing and the contrast between "English style" and "Continental style" I was surprised to see that many people who posted comments seem to use the term "Continetal style" to refer to any style across the European continent from Portugal to Russia!

Row crossing, attributed to the "Continental style", is described by one person as "emasculated, rhythmless playing"! Another analysis maintained that "Continental style" often has a "fairly so-so tune" fitted over an interesting chord sequence "with plenty of arpeggios and "noodling" but not much shape or structure to the tune." "English style" is described by many as "bouncy", "punchy", "rhythmic" and as having tunes with a "strong distinctive shape and structure".

My aim here is not to stir up another heated discussion but rather to get an idea of how people who play "English style" may view "Basque style". The Basque Country is in Europe, sitting astride the western end of the Pyrenees, and would, I imagine be classsified as "Continental style" by the "English style" players. I've chosen a video of a young couple from last year's competition in the Basque Country. I've deliberately chosen a piece with no singing as the singing is often terrible. The important thing is the technique and the playing. Bear in mind that the basses are unisonoric.

I'd really like to read English melodeonists' answers to the following questions:

Is it "diddly diddly"?
Is is very fast?
Is it rhythmic?
Is it bouncy?
Any comments on the use of bellows waggle?
Generally, what's your impression of this style of playing?
Do such competitions exist in other countries in Europe or is the emphasis on festivals and workshops?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7IUAunrY-k&list=PL0_8RRvp7KyL32k_zJZiyg1RLH_w3HN2b

The piece is danceable. Here's a link to an example of Basque dance so you can get an idea, also taken from a competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APiCXCWVnho

Sebastian
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Mike Hirst on August 27, 2013, 12:58:05 AM
Is it "diddly diddly"?
Is is very fast?
Is it rhythmic?


I've had a busy weekend, but the best answer I can bring to the above query would have to be:

"There's a great big mystery
It sure has worried me
It's diddy wah diddy
It's diddy wah diddy
I wish somebody'd tell me
what diddy wah diddy means"
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: daveyaaa on August 27, 2013, 02:13:50 AM
I remember seeing Kepa Junkera, Riccardo Tesi and John Kirkpatrick doing a tour together in the 90's. If you look for Trans Europe Diatonique on youtube you'll see about 20 minutes of the concert....Basque, Italian and English all getting on nicely.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 27, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
This is clearly fine, rhythmic, powerful stuff, safely rooted in a living dance tradition. The examples you offer are extremely well played. Those strong gaps without sound in the first duet are particularly strong rhythmically and "not diddly"!  Actually all the (limited) trixa I've seen has been good.

As I've said repeatedly, the same applies to the Irish music I encountered in Eire (especially to the West), also in France, After this month I can also add Brittany. I got to your country 3 years back and heard only Basque music.

Not all delivery of any tradition is as crisp. I try not to use the "diddly" word myself as it has become a bit of a label. I see it as an onomatopoeia referring to originally, 6/8 gigs. These can be a true pleasure done steady, but by the time the room (I refer to English pub back rooms) has reached medley number five, and the pace has doubled (can be faster, 2 Bohdranists are still pushing it, the other has gone for a drink) well the notes of melodies sort of merge. Think I'll go for a drink too :-\

In this manifestation even I feel the "diddly" word coming on, though  I think others who aren't fond of melody (rather than chord) grounded tunes might even use it for reels. I personally see this as a peculiarly English thing, and in its "racing" aspect probably most related to the absence of dancers, who wouldn't put up with such chicanery for a moment.

Application to Basque music, played well? None in your examples.

Do you have any Fandangos, played really badly?  >:E
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: dunlustin on August 27, 2013, 09:37:09 AM
It's always bad to generalise BUT, I feel that a lot of what is called "continental" refers to a core of tunes from Central France borrowed by English bands about 25 years ago.
More specifically they are often in Aminor - unlike a lot of that stuff from Central France.
I enjoyed your questions. Tunes can be too fast because the players are showing off/drunk or slow because they are for Morris which is manly.
As commented above, dancers have a sobering effect on tempo.
Quote:  "English style" is described by many as "bouncy", "punchy", "rhythmic" and as having tunes with a "strong distinctive shape and structure". We also go to church a lot, pay our taxes and never mistreat our children.
I have to bring up the parallels with Morris - single sex at times, bell pads, sticks (well hoops) even I think I've spotted what we call "galleys"
Do you think there is the +/- of competitions going on here?
The presentation reminds me of the contrast between French "Groupes Fokloriques" and the "Folkeux" of the revival in the 70s - 80s. Is there the same contrast in Basque music.
I'm not up to date with trends but I seem to remember groups like Mont Joia (A bit to the East) had something of an "alternative" feel.
Finally I noticed a Youtube comment from someone who had spent some time in the Pays Basque and was struck by the vitality of its traditions - the music/dance would confirm their experience.
"Doo wha diddy"  - everyone knows what that means - or at least if they enjoy 1930s Piedmont-ragtime-blues. Vive le Kicking Mule!
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: diatosoldo on August 27, 2013, 10:34:30 AM
Is it really a "melodeon" ? the basses are chromatic aren't they ?

http://atzarin.com/eng/atzarineng/trikitixa.html

(sorry, you mentionned it in your post ..)

But nevertheless, it remains difficult to compare 2 ways of playing, if the musical instruments are different, doesn't it ?
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Malcolm on August 27, 2013, 10:36:40 AM
I always wondered whether the 'diddly diddly' was a half reference to lilting - a means of expressing a tune using the voice rather than an instrument - rather than simply a pejorative term for Irish music no matter how fast or slowly it is played. I am always interested to hear music played well on any free reed instrument whether it be English, Irish, French or even Venezuelan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfFYPzgM1nc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfFYPzgM1nc).  I particularly enjoy the Basque style of playing as evidenced in the two clips posted which is wonderfully rhythmic and percussive. Ditto the free reed 'wall of sound' approach of some Portuguese dance groups I have seen on my travels - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9In5vwEL4hw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9In5vwEL4hw) I once sat in with a Portuguese band that had about 6x4 voice accordions going full tilt. Great fun. 

In the final analysis, doesn't it all come down to the quality of playing and the respect for the music?  If that is the case then tempo is part of the equation that goes towards achieving a satisfying outcome and that is why session playing can sometimes be so trying when things start to speed up.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Gromit on August 27, 2013, 10:42:28 AM
It's not "diddly" music which to me describes the kind of ornamentation used in Irish music.

It's intereresting but too accordion for me, a fiddle in there would be nice.

The dancing is good - a lot better than the morris stuff I saw yesterday

Is Basque music related to Asturian music, from the North of Spain - I like this kind of music -

DRD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D544we-_Y8o
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: **DTN** on August 27, 2013, 12:31:48 PM
Heres a story - I took a holiday in the Basque country around Sans Sebastien a few years ago to go around the area hear the superb music and dancing as i just love all the Trikitixa music and then also with every intention to try some boxes out and hopefully buy one (zero Sette Antiko) went to Lasarte-Oria, Gipuzkoa  home of the Tirikitrauki shop (i could see them through the window .. arrrrgh!..to find out i got there 1 day after they had shut for holidays for 3 weeks :(  (as were all the other decent shops!.)  So without trying it out i gave up!
I came home and tried to navigate the website at that time and tried to steer my way through the then Basque / Spanish website (Tirikitrauki) to place an order....
I then got contacted by them after it seemed i had ordered 5 boxes instead of 1 somehow even though the price was for one and my requirements were completely confusing...... so the order was cancelled and to reorder i needed to restart again and the communications got so confusing i gave up! ... so no Trikitixa for me. :(
Their newer website although still in Spanish and Basque is much clearer now and google translates everything. ... but when i was there the Euro was nearly 1.5 to the £ and a Box was approx £1200 for a really good one... the same one is now £2600  :o
Oh well ... so just need a crash on the Euro and i'll be back in business.. ;D
Derek
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 27, 2013, 01:47:01 PM
(I posted a link to some Calabrian music during the last outbreak of dislike towards Irish music but only got a positive comment.  I did wonder whether it would attract the same kind of criticism

I got well Leprchauned that time, but please read my lips, ie the context ("English" Irish) of what I wrote even then. Irish music is superb, its melody led base might not suit my approach (unusually chord led) but I'm jealous of those who play it well. But I've never enjoyed "racing" and am prepared to say it's one of the few things you can do "wrong" in folk music. I prefer the green stuff to the brown stuff

Back on topic. We all agreed this is good, not diddly at all, but 3 definition of what a diddle might actually be ::) anyone care to comment on bellows waggle? The basque lady at stage impro waggled a lot, amazing technique!
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Stiamh on August 27, 2013, 02:47:17 PM
For those of you who like to harp on about Irish music being played too fast and having lost any connection with the west of Ireland and/or  dance, have at look and listen to this clip (http://youtu.be/Kk8LMBjed9M). Upwards of 125 bpm and the distinctly mature-age dancers are not complaining, and [edited to add] doing the footwork.

Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 27, 2013, 06:57:49 PM
Good try, but about half speed for this island, and they don't even speed up  :-\
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: ACE on August 27, 2013, 07:48:16 PM
We were at an international folk dance festival many moons ago. There was a Basque group there and in the beer tent one evening two of the younger males danced a type of double jig to a tune very similar to Bacca Pipes. Very energetic but the music was steady and the dancers jumped through their arms whilst still holding their berets. Not to be outdone and the drink talking, two of us started dancing Bacca pipes with a couple of sticks on the ground to their music. It fitted the dance a treat.

All good fun and we taught them our dance and they taught us theirs. (don't try it with top hats it don't work) Basque music to me will always be morrissy.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 27, 2013, 09:04:47 PM
nah, nothing in common with Morris ;)
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Malcolm on August 28, 2013, 09:37:36 AM
Looks like they North West Morris too ~ at 2m50sec here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EO1NZx_I-k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EO1NZx_I-k)
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Chris Ryall on August 28, 2013, 09:54:59 AM
I went to a pelota game, the second half was kids dancing. I kid you not, six lads in white and red with hankies lined up to a pipe and tabor, and did (inter alia) galleys! No idea what the connection with English Cotswolds might be, but there clearly is one.

To return to topic for a millisecond or two, there are further similarities in the chrispness and squareness of the music phrasing. i'd offer  :neigh: that the presence of dancers is the common theme. The tunes themselves were "different". Basque dance of course extends a long way beyond this sort of thing , 400+ according to wiki.

« Les basques : un petit peuple qui chante et qui danse au pied des Pyrénées » Voltaire
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: malcolmbebb on August 28, 2013, 11:49:15 AM
There is a gentleman called Steve Rowley from Gloucestershire who is well into the Basque stick dances and could tell you more than you probably want to know. He's with Gloucestershire Morris Men, and quite a few other organisations.
He's into the music as well, AFAIK, but I don't think he plays a box...

I think there have been similar "Morris" or "early Morris" dance styles noted in S. Germany also.

If you subscribe to the "Moresca" theory for the origin of morris dancing, you can fairly easily ascribe the spread of the dances and dress to travel around the courts of Europe and thence spreading out into the countrysides.
It's likely that the dances had to evolve to fit what the available musicians could play, probably the popular tunes of the day, so you could postulate a diverging set of traditions with a still-visible common root.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: dunlustin on August 28, 2013, 12:23:03 PM
I'm always a bit bothered by the notion that trends start in the Royal Courts and spread out to the mob, becoming debased in the process.
Musicians have often gone to where the people are and made money by collecting pennies.
The Royals and their hangers-on have always been famous for resisting rather than embracing change.
When was the last time you saw a set of dodgems outside Buck House or Queen Vic travelling by traction engine?
Surely someone might see a thesis in rehabilitating the common man. I once bought a book entitled "How to become a Colliery Manager" when I got it home I found it was in Welsh!
Can't believe curiosity, self-improvement and creativity began in the Nineteenth Century.
Off-topic but I've needed to get it out for ages.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: Atzarin on August 28, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
Heres a story - I took a holiday in the Basque country around Sans Sebastien a few years ago to go around the area hear the superb music and dancing as i just love all the Trikitixa music and then also with every intention to try some boxes out and hopefully buy one (zero Sette Antiko) went to Lasarte-Oria, Gipuzkoa  home of the Tirikitrauki shop (i could see them through the window .. arrrrgh!..to find out i got there 1 day after they had shut for holidays for 3 weeks :(  (as were all the other decent shops!.)  So without trying it out i gave up!
I came home and tried to navigate the website at that time and tried to steer my way through the then Basque / Spanish website (Tirikitrauki) to place an order....
I then got contacted by them after it seemed i had ordered 5 boxes instead of 1 somehow even though the price was for one and my requirements were completely confusing...... so the order was cancelled and to reorder i needed to restart again and the communications got so confusing i gave up! ... so no Trikitixa for me. :(
Their newer website although still in Spanish and Basque is much clearer now and google translates everything. ... but when i was there the Euro was nearly 1.5 to the £ and a Box was approx £1200 for a really good one... the same one is now £2600  :o
Oh well ... so just need a crash on the Euro and i'll be back in business.. ;D
Derek

You could try Txirula, although they don't seem to sell the Antiko model. However, their site is available in English and they are a good deal cheaper than Trikitrauki.

http://www.txirula.com/eng/TRIKITIXAK.html

If you're after a classic look, the Basque Italian brand Larrinaga-Guerrini has been brought back. The instruments are assembled in Irun in the Basque Country. Bb-Eb as standard but you can order in any tone and choose the colour of the box etc. 3 voices left hand, 4 voices right hand. Site in Spanish only.

https://sites.google.com/site/acordeonesdumboa/venta/diatonicos-larrinaga-guerrini

It's intereresting but too accordion for me, a fiddle in there would be nice.

Is Basque music related to Asturian music, from the North of Spain - I like this kind of music -

DRD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D544we-_Y8o

Basque music is not related to Asturian music, no. Asturian is Celtic, so they're big on bag pipes, which are not played at all in Basque music.
Basque music uses, amongst others, instruments like the txirula, a kind of shrill whistle, txistu, alboka, and the txalaparta, thick wooden planks struck with thick sticks for percussion . In this video of Kalakan you can see a group from the "French" or northern part of the Basque Country using a txirula and the txalaparta. These blokes played with Madonna at her concert at the Paris Olympia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD-6t-qxw6k&list=PL098EE06B3BA55CA8

If you want to hear some fiddle try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeDqSHYYMIw

Is it really a "melodeon" ? the basses are chromatic aren't they ?
...........
But nevertheless, it remains difficult to compare 2 ways of playing, if the musical instruments are different, doesn't it ?


The basses are unisonoric, yes. My aim is not to obtain a comparison but rather to obtain reactions to the style of playing from people who play a very different style. I want to know, for example, if the people who describe the "English style" as bouncy, usually attributed to on the row playing, think this is smooth, associated with cross rowing. What I hoped to get was some adjectives describing the resulting sound. I could have provided examples on the chromatic accordion and asked the same questions.

Do you have any Fandangos, played really badly?

Only the ones I've ever managed to play!

Sebastian
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: JohnAndy on August 28, 2013, 02:06:35 PM
There is a gentleman called Steve Rowley from Gloucestershire who is well into the Basque stick dances and could tell you more than you probably want to know. He's with Gloucestershire Morris Men, and quite a few other organisations.
He's into the music as well, AFAIK, but I don't think he plays a box...
Here he is: http://gloucestergrallers.wordpress.com/contact/ (http://gloucestergrallers.wordpress.com/contact/)

He is part of this group playing the gralla, which is a shawm-like double-reed instrument from Catalonia.
Title: Re: "Basque style" from the perspective of "English style". What do you think?
Post by: smiley on August 29, 2013, 12:44:28 PM
For those of you who like to harp on about Irish music being played too fast and having lost any connection with the west of Ireland and/or  dance, have at look and listen to this clip (http://youtu.be/Kk8LMBjed9M). Upwards of 125 bpm and the distinctly mature-age dancers are not complaining, and [edited to add] doing the footwork.

I saw Johnny Reidy playing like that in a Killarney pub and the dancers were towelling down after each set. More like aerobics than dancing, I reckon! Anyone who can keep up that pace on the banjo deserves a medal.

Now back to the Basques & Brits ...
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