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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Rog on January 11, 2014, 04:48:46 PM
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It must have been discussed before...but I'm not sure how to find it...
Can someone point me at any threads where the reasons why a B/C box is prevalent among players of Irish tunes is explained, and why this may or may not enable you to play fast reels etc. I'm curious also to know if any players prefer the D/G for Irish tunes, and whether this handicaps their playing. I've just watched a video of Tim Edey playing an Irish tune on a D/G *very* fast, and it doesn't seem to have hampered his playing.
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I think playing fast is just a matter of practice whatever system you choose. If you want to play fast.
The BC system gives a different feel and phrasing to the music at least partly because of where in the scale of, say D, it places the changes of bellows direction, compared to playing along a D row.
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http://thesession.org/discussions/28396 is what I could find.
I've had this choice not too long ago and remember finding lots and lots of topics on the matter, ended up with C#/D in the end. I posted here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13190.0.html and I got some opinions on the matter.
Overall, B/C is just a lot more flexible in tunes as well, it's chromatic, there will be tunes you can't play on the D/G.
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Dave Mallinson (Mally to most people) plays lots of Irish stuff on DG. I think the main reason for BCC being preferred my the majority of ITM players is down to ''tradition' i.e. as the BC, CC# etc boxes were around well before the DG's were invented that is what they played - and that is what was passed on down the generations - and that is what the 'top' players played - and that is what teachers of ITM box playing tought etc etc.
There are of course those who swear by one system or the other , often with absolutely no experience of playing the system they are not swearing by! There are also points of view on the BC generally requiring less ins and outs than the DG played on the row - but then the cross row DG players have their bit to add.
My personal view, as a player of both systems, is that
- either will do the job well provided the skills of the player are good!
- neither will do the job well with a mediocre player!
- the BC does a far greater veriety of keys than does the DG
- The DG whilst limited in keys offers more sope to 'drive a rhythm' with the bass ( which many players of ITM don't want anyway)
- the individual choice needs to take into consideration the system being played by the people you will play most with - go with the flow!
- It also needs to take into consideration andy desires to play other than ITM and its suitability for such 'other'stuff
george
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OK, so tradition then and maybe more flexibility on a chromatic box, if you're not bothered about the LH.
I thought there might be an explanation around fluid playing across the rows, or whatever, but it doesn't sound like it.
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http://thesession.org/discussions/28396 is what I could find.
I've had this choice not too long ago and remember finding lots and lots of topics on the matter, ended up with C#/D in the end. I posted here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13190.0.html and I got some opinions on the matter.
Overall, B/C is just a lot more flexible in tunes as well, it's chromatic, there will be tunes you can't play on the D/G.
In what form did the choice take? Were you looking for a new box/first box/something different to try?
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It is my first box so I started from scratch. I had some mitigating issues though, as I didn't want to play only Irish music on my box but also in C/Amin/Ddorian and A/Bdorian.
Really thinking about it, if you want to play in D and G and all its related modes the D/G is probably the most logical I mean, you got the G the B and the A in two bellow directions of choice while for B/C it's only B and E. With 3 notes for own interpetation you can choose however you want to sound. I would miss the F natural and G# though for tunes in other key as well as tunes that just use accidentals.
Just a final thing, ornamentation, long rolls aren't available if you want to play them traditionally. but you still got the short roll/grace notes/stutter so I don't know if that should let you down.
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I'm a B/C player - when I started playing it seemed to be the "standard" for Irish players now Csharp/D appears to be nearly as popular- Tim Edey I believe plays B/C as well as D/G and probably other systems.
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As George said, it is tradition that semi tone boxes are used for Irish just as it is now tradition that DG is for English. As mentioned in another recent thread, this was only invented in the 50s so it is a new tradition. The biggest reason for not playing BC if you live in England is that you can't find anybody to teach you - seems to scare alot of folks off!!
I play BC mainly because to my non musical background, having all the keys open to you just makes more sense but so am struggling with playing a decent bass end. To an extent this is down to user error though! I play what ever tunes take my fancy regardless of origin or tradition and I aspire to mediocraty...
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For anybody within reach of Anglesey I teach BC!!
The simple answer for BC players wanting to drive a bass rhythm is to go for one of the rare double rays with 12 stradella. The box is transformed!
george
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I'm a B/C player - when I started playing it seemed to be the "standard" for Irish players now Csharp/D appears to be nearly as popular- Tim Edey I believe plays B/C as well as D/G and probably other systems.
and C#/D/D# (:)
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im curios at the all Ireland championships, do they all play b/c boxes ive seen various videos of this annual competition and always wondered?
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im curios at the all Ireland championships, do they all play b/c boxes ive seen various videos of this annual competition and always wondered?
I met a guy in Dublin just after the All-Ireland this year who played a G/D system - it was bizarre!
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There is a strong tradition of B/C box playing in Ireland in the last 55 odd years ,this is because most of the decent players worked out that this was the best way to interpret the music as they heard it,so a lot the new players naturaly aspired to this ,but there have always been other systems such as C#/D D/D# C/C# and the 2 row D/G box for eg and many other tunnings ,I think that semitone boxes realy put the Irishness into the music because of all the rolls and cuts etc,but very good music can also be played up and down the row in melodeon style but to do this effectivly great skill is needed so unless you are pretty handy, the B/C is probably the best way to go.This is only my take on it.
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If the D/G came about by accident in 1950s, so to speak, then prior to that semitone boxes would have been the logical boxes for ITM given the keys that the music was played in. A quick look through "O'Neils 1,001" shows a preponderance of sharp tunes so C/F and G/C would have been of limited use.
Steve
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I don't expect this to be met with a lot of agreement, but I'd like to put in a vote for the A/D system. If you're playing mostly in D, anyway...I find that the bass notes of an A/D are very well suited for playing in D. The chords less so, though taping off thirds might improve that. (I seldom use chords myself; my stroke-addled brain does better the less you give it to confuse it.) I have tried the B/C system (I own a B/C Double Ray, in fact, with the old Hohner B/C bass setup) and it never really appealed to me.
I should say that I'm not much on traditional Irish music, but what I do play of it works well in the A/D even if I seldom manage to sound very Irish.
I am told that players of D/C# Irish-American boxes with eight basses often used the bass setup from an A/D, but I have no idea how true this is.
TBV
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If the D/G came about by accident in 1950s, so to speak, then prior to that semitone boxes would have been the logical boxes for ITM given the keys that the music was played in.
Another interesting question is - what did they use in England before the 50's? There's a comment http://www.eatmt.org.uk/percy_brown.htm (http://www.eatmt.org.uk/percy_brown.htm) that Percy Brown of Norfolk used a C/C# as well as a D/G. I suppose the answer is "whatever they could get" ...??
Steve
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sometime in the fifties me and a mate both bought hohner double rays from an accordion dealer in Manchester . They were the only ''button accordions'' in stock . We hadn't a clue what keys the rows were in and for a few years ,as teenagers, we played them on the row in B or C the choice of row being purely made to ring some changes in the sound! We thought of it as being the same as a mouthie which we were already playing so we just did the same on the box
Eventually we discovered more by good luck than good management that other keys could be had by starting elsewhere on the C row and nicking the odd note of the B row!
nobody mentioned that there were such things as DG boxes and it was many years before I acquired one
george
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I don't expect this to be met with a lot of agreement, but I'd like to put in a vote for the A/D system. If you're playing mostly in D, anyway...I find that the bass notes of an A/D are very well suited for playing in D.
[snip]
I am told that players of D/C# Irish-American boxes with eight basses often used the bass setup from an A/D, but I have no idea how true this is.
C#/D bass setups are usually almost the the same as the A/D layout. They tend to have D-G or E-G instead of the G-G bass-chord pair, but the first thing I would do with either of these is have them changed to G-G - giving the exact same layout as an A/D box. So it ought to be a good layout for D/C# too.
As for the A/D being a good choice for Irish music: you're right, I don't think many will agree with you. (:) Although you may be playing "mostly in D" (by which I would mean keys with two sharps), a lot of the time you are playing in keys with one sharp (not just G and related minors but D mixolydian as well). This makes A/D unsuitable for a lot of the Irish repertoire - you really need a C-natural somewhere more handy than down at the bottom of the rows.
So a D/G is IMO a much better choice than A/D.
Can someone point me at any threads where the reasons why a B/C box is prevalent among players of Irish tunes is explained, and why this may or may not enable you to play fast reels etc. I'm curious also to know if any players prefer the D/G for Irish tunes, and whether this handicaps their playing. I've just watched a video of Tim Edey playing an Irish tune on a D/G *very* fast, and it doesn't seem to have hampered his playing.
Roger, as you have noted, a D/G is no handicap as far as speed is concerned. And as far as repertoire is concerned, on a D/G you can play any tune that can be played on a D tin whistle (without the use of half-holing to get accidentals etc.), which adds up to a big chunk of the Irish repertoire. But there's another big chunk that goes beyond that...
It's been pointed out that historically D/G vs. B/C was not a choice open to Irish players. But now that semitone boxes are well established, I think the extra possibilities they offer - being able to play fairly easily in a wider range of keys, never being stuck for accidentals (which are exceedingly conveniently placed), and being able to execute certain twiddly bits that you can't do on a "quint box" - mean that D/G is never going to get a look-in among Irish players.
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Quoting Steve:- "It's been pointed out that historically D/G vs. B/C was not a choice open to Irish players. But now that semitone boxes are well established, I think the extra possibilities they offer - being able to play fairly easily in a wider range of keys, never being stuck for accidentals (which are exceedingly conveniently placed), and being able to execute certain twiddly bits that you can't do on a "quint box" - mean that D/G is never going to get a look-in among Irish players"
Perhaps it depends what the Irish players want to play. They don't all play what we imagine they all play, i.e 'diddly' music. I took an A/D box into a session in Co. Clare. They all wanted to try it and were very taken with the possibilities it offered compared to their 'semitone' boxes; I had a struggle to get it back! There's more to Irish music than jigs and reels, and many of the more serious players are exploring other music, and find the possibilities of the 'quint' bass end very interesting.
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I was reminded (again) of the limitations of the DG last night, at a guitar/song oriented session. Sooner or later I'll have a go at a BC or a BCC#. John Kirkpatrick said he learned BCC cos that's all there was in the 1960s. He was also inspired by the instrument played by J Shand.
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If you are thinking in terms of playing both DG and BC(C#) I would recommend skipping the BC and going directly to ,perhaps, a hohner trichord (12 stradella bass). You then would have the DG for what its good at plus a chromatic (treble) box that is easier to play then a 2 row BC and which has bass for CGDA plus enough to get by in F and E.
Jump up a size to a long 48 bass 12x4 eg casali and you have bass down to Ab
Its a pity nobody makes a trichord size 3 voice with as many stradella bass as could be fitted(preferably longer rather than wider!)
george
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I remember playing a three row, four voice Paolo Soprani with a stradella 80 bass setup back in the early 80s. It was a beautiful box.
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If you are thinking in terms of playing both DG and BC(C#) I would recommend skipping the BC and going directly to ,perhaps, a hohner trichord (12 stradella bass). You then would have the DG for what its good at plus a chromatic (treble) box that is easier to play then a 2 row BC and which has bass for CGDA plus enough to get by in F and E.
Jump up a size to a long 48 bass 12x4 eg casali and you have bass down to Ab
Its a pity nobody makes a trichord size 3 voice with as many stradella bass as could be fitted(preferably longer rather than wider!)
george
With the 12 stradella bass you say you have enough bass for CGDA and partial F and E. If that's the case and the decision is BC or BCC# why not chose a 12 bass stradella BC? Wouldn't the keys that are added with the C# row need sharp basses C#, G#, D# etc?
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The advantage of a trichord over a 2 row double ray is that for little extra weight and bulk you get the wherewithal for the flat keys ( that can of course be played on a 2 row but require more learning and more tricky fingering).
But it is not only the learn 5 and get 12 keys that are the attraction of a BCC# There is also the greater range of alternative direction treble notes which can simplify fingering and greatly facilitate bellows control, the latter being more important if the bass is being used as compared to a BC where often it isn't. Having the flat keys without bass but with easlier fingering than the Bc is another little bonus
Another reason is that 12 stradella 2 voice 2 rows are not common an;d the slightly more common double ray delux 3 voice is little smaller than a trichord.
george
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Quoting Steve:- "It's been pointed out that historically D/G vs. B/C was not a choice open to Irish players. But now that semitone boxes are well established, I think the extra possibilities they offer - being able to play fairly easily in a wider range of keys, never being stuck for accidentals (which are exceedingly conveniently placed), and being able to execute certain twiddly bits that you can't do on a "quint box" - mean that D/G is never going to get a look-in among Irish players"
Perhaps it depends what the Irish players want to play. They don't all play what we imagine they all play, i.e 'diddly' music. I took an A/D box into a session in Co. Clare. They all wanted to try it and were very taken with the possibilities it offered compared to their 'semitone' boxes; I had a struggle to get it back! There's more to Irish music than jigs and reels, and many of the more serious players are exploring other music, and find the possibilities of the 'quint' bass end very interesting.
No doubt Steve Chambers will be able to confirm that subsequent to your visit, Frank, there was a run on A/D boxes in his music shop. ;) I'm not surprised by what you say - in another recent thread I mentioned a older B/C player in Australia who loved to borrow my friend's D/G. I just don't think that these anecdotes portend an appreciable upswing in the popularity of D/G or A/D in Ireland.
However your assertion about "many of the more serious players" being intrigued sounds very confident and I am sufficiently intrigued in turn to ask you who all these serious players are, and what evidence you have of players of diatonic boxes in Ireland playing stuff other than traditional music.
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Roger, as you have noted, a D/G is no handicap as far as speed is concerned. And as far as repertoire is concerned, on a D/G you can play any tune that can be played on a D tin whistle (without the use of half-holing to get accidentals etc.), which adds up to a big chunk of the Irish repertoire. But there's another big chunk that goes beyond that...
To be fair, that's true of the English repertoire too.
As a question, there seems to be what suspect is a myth prevalent amongst D/G players that B/C players play chromatically. As far as I'm aware one of the points about the B/C system was that is easy (well, reasonably possible and all that) to play in the "usual" keys, and that players were more easily able to imitate the style of the fiddle. ie. different to the the "push-pull" style.
Point being, that it's not easy for playing outside the "usual keys" with one or two sharps and players tend not to do that.
Am I creating my own myth here?
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Andrew, it goes a bit further than that IMO. B/C is very handy - much handier than C#/D - for tunes with no sharps or flats and one flat. D minor tunes are a snap, and the B/C opens up all those moody fiddle tunes in G dorian, and allows you to play with those fiddlers who enjoy playing G tunes in F for the mellow sound.
And don't forget that C#/D and B/C allow you to play in A major proper (with abundant G#s).
There are exceptional players who can play chromatically, really chromatically. If I get a minute I'll post Dermot Byrne's amazing demonstration of this skill in a recent workshop.
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Andrew, it goes a bit further than that IMO. B/C is very handy - much handier than C#/D - for tunes with no sharps or flats and one flat. D minor tunes are a snap, and the B/C opens up all those moody fiddle tunes in G dorian, and allows you to play with those fiddlers who enjoy playing G tunes in F for the mellow sound.
And don't forget that C#/D and B/C allow you to play in A major proper (with abundant G#s).
There are exceptional players who can play chromatically, really chromatically. If I get a minute I'll post Dermot Byrne's amazing demonstration of this skill in a recent workshop.
Yes, I suppose I realise that it opens up the hinterland around the usual keys, and an actual G# and I'm obviously familiar with D minor (and fudging F) being a C one-row player.
It's a curiosity that I've been complained at in the past by fiddle players for the limited range of keys we (I mean generally, not just box players) play in, and how they'd like to be able to play in other the keys they can etc etc ... like it's all my personal fault.
Then I take along whistles and boxes in other keys, or even just do something in B minor and there's no interest, not even to have a proper "go" at it.
I've seen Dermot Byrne, but he's not, um, normal, is he :P
I wonder whether thre's an A/D/G player who plays chromatically?
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I wonder whether there's an A/D/G player who plays chromatically?
Mike Hurst of this parish does.
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If I get a minute I'll post Dermot Byrne's amazing demonstration of this skill in a recent workshop.
That would be good to see Steve.
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I wonder whether thre's an A/D/G player who plays chromatically?
I spent some time working towards extending the range of the three row quint box.
There is a chromatic scale of just over an octave and a half and most keys are possible. In this clip I play in all 12 major keys using a standard layout Hohner G/C/F:
http://libtrad.eu/mp3/chromatic.mp3
There are frustrations around the fact that there is only one Ab available. (In A/D/G terms this would be Bb.)
I have since moved on to play chromatic boxes viz D/D# and C#/D. These allows a fluidity that was not apparent on the quint box.
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bravo! (:)
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If I get a minute I'll post Dermot Byrne's amazing demonstration of this skill in a recent workshop.
That would be good to see Steve.
Here you go (http://rogermillington.com/steam/DB_EveryKey.mp3).
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If I get a minute I'll post Dermot Byrne's amazing demonstration of this skill in a recent workshop.
That would be good to see Steve.
Here you go (http://rogermillington.com/steam/DB_EveryKey.mp3).
Incredible.... It boggles my mind how he doesn't even seem to think about it. He just does it.
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"It's just a matter of getting used to where all the notes are".
Got it.
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i'm sure that the gaelic language has the phrases and turns for this sort of thing, but when I hear this kind of virtuosity, I prefer to believe that the music has chosen the individual... and then uses that individual as a conduit into this world!
accepting this (and knowing that I am not yet, nor likely to be one of the chosen,) allows me to plod on, in my own little mechanical way, trying to make my noise more like that. (:)
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Great - thanks Steve - has he got one of those buttons on the back that changes key like my mates electric piano? :)
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It's a great demonstration, but any classically trained musician would wonder what all the fuss was about. You have to learn to play in any key with equal facility. It takes a while to get to know the territory, but then you just do it.
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'tis true in one sense, but a good handful of them would need the sheet music?
....and difficult to compare the skills of classically trained musicians to traditional/folk music players....particularly box players. !!
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Not a lot of classical music B/C players in these parts! I'll have to work on some of them Bach partitas on my C#/D.
Dan
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I did say to Steve on a different thread, that this level of accomplishment
would not be uncommon amongst Irish musicians, but I am not going to labour the point.
No need, and I'm sure you're right.
For one thing the habit of using chromatic boxes has allowed Irish musicians to play in any key they want generally, and for another I suspect the Irish see a whole spectrum of musical ability from folk music to classical, whereas the English see it more as either one thing or the other, even with a certain amount of inverted snobbery in some parts ("if you can read music you can't play folk properly" is one version of it)
I'll have to work on some of them Bach partitas on my C#/D.
That would be a fine thing to do 8) Please do it and post a video (:)
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Johnny Og Connolly has had a go... (https://soundcloud.com/jonesbach/bach-on-the-box) I'll leave this up for a day or two - posted without permission.
Without permission for me to view it either...
Quoth Soundcloud:
"Sorry, we can't find that track
Did you try to access a private track, but were not logged in?"
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Sorry Steve, I've been out of contact for a few days so didn't reply to your earlier post. Not that I've much to offer in terms of concrete evidence I'm afraid, except in my travels I've now met quite a few Irish players who play "other' music, and, from conversations, would obviously welcome the ability to add bass lines and harmonies to their playing. My experience of Irish music has been in sessions over there, but I never asked or made a note of any names. I'm sure you're right there isn't going to be a sudden upsurge in popularity of the 'quint' system in Ireland, but I'd be surprised if there isn't some interest. My Irish repertoire is very limited, but I played a handful of the Irish tunes I knew with added harmonies and basses, and this seemed to surprise quite a few who'd never met the system; certainly there appeared to be serious interest and there were enquiries about where to purchase a 'fifth apart' box.
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I didn't comment on the so-called "fuss" before now because I wanted to run the situation past some conservatory-trained cellist friends whom I saw at the weekend. Yes, classical musicians have to learn to play in every key, but what Dermot did was more than that. He asked me to name a tune - any tune.
My cellist friends thought that only very few - exceptional - classically trained musicians would be able to play a piece that they knew by heart in every key with equal facility spontaneously, with no advance warning. They themselves certainly wouldn't be able to. But they would be able to play a piece in any key when you put the score in front of them. And players of transposing instruments are used to reading a score in one key and playing it in another. But that isn't what Dermot did.
Now of course it has to be said that Humours of Drinagh and other tunes in Dermot's repertoire are melodically very simple and formulaic compared with the normal diet of classical musicians. But it also has to be said that although the semitone box is chromatic in the sense that all the notes are there, playing in remote keys is particularly challenging because of the changing push-pull patterns and the fact that notes get out of synch across the rows. Playing in Eb on a C#/D box to give just one for example, going up the scale you have to change bellows direction for every note, and your g natural in the second octave is two buttons away from your f natural on the other row, and is also closer to your knee than your Ab. And all the remote keys have pitfalls of this kind. How many orchestral instruments are as counterintuitive as that?
A better comparison actually would be not with classical but with accomplished jazz musicians, who need to be able to play standards in any key without warning. But I haven't seen any of those playing diatonic boxes. ;)
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Good answer Steve
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My cellist friends thought that only very few - exceptional - classically trained musicians would be able to play a piece that they knew by heart in every key with equal facility spontaneously, with no advance warning. They themselves certainly wouldn't be able to. But they would be able to play a piece in any key when you put the score in front of them.
OK, it's true that not every rank-and-file orchestral player would be able to to do that. Some find it hard to play anything from memory, though they have an amazing ability to sight read anything fluently.
although the semitone box is chromatic in the sense that all the notes are there, playing in remote keys is particularly challenging because of the changing push-pull patterns and the fact that notes get out of synch across the rows.
It's hard to make comparisons, but typical wind and stringed instruments have similar levels of complexity. Like the button accordion they have a home scale that is easy to play (open the holes, one at a time, like a tin whistle...) and the further away you get in numbers of sharps and flats the more complex the fingering as you have to hit special keys (or combinations of) to get all the in-between notes.
A better comparison actually would be not with classical but with accomplished jazz musicians, who need to be able to play standards in any key without warning. But I haven't seen any of those playing diatonic boxes. ;)
Yes, some jazz musicians have all the musical skills at once: reading, picking up by ear and improvising. And all in any key.
In my previous posting I was speaking from personal experience of classical music. The cello was my first instrument.
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It's a great demonstration, but any classically trained musician would wonder what all the fuss was about. You have to learn to play in any key with equal facility. It takes a while to get to know the territory, but then you just do it.
I dunno, I think the on the spot transposition element makes it quite a bit more impressive.
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I did say to Steve on a different thread, that this level of accomplishment
would not be uncommon amongst Irish musicians, but I am not going to labour the point.
No need, and I'm sure you're right.
For one thing the habit of using chromatic boxes has allowed Irish musicians to play in any key they want generally, and for another I suspect the Irish see a whole spectrum of musical ability from folk music to classical, whereas the English see it more as either one thing or the other, even with a certain amount of inverted snobbery in some parts ("if you can read music you can't play folk properly" is one version of it)
Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
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I think that comment is an exaggeration, a generalisation and is divisive. Whilst it may well be true that a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform ( and I am sure the reverse is also to true) most box players appreciate the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.
george
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most box players appreciate the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition,
Well said George.
I always enjoy my visits to events organised by EATMT in East Anglia where players from Ireland as well as England are often included in the guest list. I've never been aware of anything but mutual pleasure in shared music when they play together.
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I think that comment is an exaggeration, a generalisation and is divisive. Whilst it may well be true that a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform ( and I am sure the reverse is also to true) most box players appreciate the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.
george
Of course it's a generalisation. I just feel like I end up reading an awful lot of comments on this board from English players critisizing Irish box playing based on a perceived emphasis on speed/technicality/musical trickery for its own sake, none of which are central to Irish traditional music/box playing.
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Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
I fail to see how you drew that conclusion from what I said. For the record, my opinion is entirely the opposite. To spell it out: coming (as mentioned before) from a classical musical training, I am full of admiration for the way that Irish folk musicians take their instrumental technique and musicality to the same levels as classical musicians do. That is not meant to be a put-down in any way.
I don't play Irish music myself: not because I don't like it but because:
- I'm English
- The Irish play their music better than I can! (I used to, I've given it up now)
- There's lots of good English music to be discovered and I enjoy doing that.
I'm really sorry if anything I said came across as negative. It certainly wasn't meant that way.
it may well be true that a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform
It may be. I'm not one of them, though I choose to play in a different style.
most box players appreciate the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.
Exactly.
(edit: typo in "given it up")
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perceived emphasis on speed/technicality/musical trickery for its own sake, none of which are central to Irish traditional music/box playing.
Actually I tend to think of that as applying more to English people playing Irish music.
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I replied after reading another thread that was particularly mired in "those are Irish are trying to play as fast as they can again", so in truth I had that that fresh in my mind and was presensitized if you will.
The reason I took what I did from your comment, Anahata, is that it seemed to imply that Irish box players tend to view musicality as a line, from worst to best (which is obviously ridiculous), and that fits in with a lot of the commonly held misconceptions around here about Irish music. So sorry, you didn't seem to have it in for Irish players, it was just poor timing for me to read another generalisation about a group of musicians.
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Luke, if it is any consolation here's an observation I made a couple of years ago at a festival in England that opened my eyes to the ignorance behind the misapprehension that Irish music is always "too fast". I overheard a conversation between a few players looking for a pub for a session. One pub was mentioned and the consensus among the group was that it was just "fast Irish" and therefore not worth joining. I'd been in that session earlier, though not playing as it happens, and nearly all the music though fast was actually Scottish. ;) Make of that what you will.
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I find some peoples ignorance very frustrating , i walked into a session once, and was greeted pleasently, then when i took out my DG paolo soprani, was imediatly met with shouts of "No irish ! " and i said i dont realy play irish tunes ( i do now, but didnt at the time, i was just starting out ) and one guy, not knowing it was DG, said that i had an irish box !
I said no mate, its italian !
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Luke, if it is any consolation here's an observation I made a couple of years ago at a festival in England that opened my eyes to the ignorance behind the misapprehension that Irish music is always "too fast". I overheard a conversation between a few players looking for a pub for a session. One pub was mentioned and the consensus among the group was that it was just "fast Irish" and therefore not worth joining. I'd been in that session earlier, though not playing as it happens, and nearly all the music though fast was actually Scottish. ;) Make of that what you will.
Don't start me on that Scottish music ;) irony alert just in case!
I'm probably just getting grumpy with nerves before my gig tomorrow...
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I play an A/D/G box, and I've been learning ITM for the last few years and I've been learning from joe burke and finbarr dwyer ect. And you can teach yourself to sound pretty much like a semitone player of course not exactly it's just getting the right mind set when learning, you can play pretty much any kind of music on any box if you wanted to
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Players like Dave Mallinson play wondrous Irish tunes on a D/G box, heaven knows how he does it !
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for what its worth I have played BC ( and BCC#) as well as DG ;& one row for many years. I do not and have never thought of the BC as being an ''Irish'' box and I don't play Irish trad session music. To me the different tunings etc are just part of the fascinating world of so called diatonic ( even if chromatic) boxes all of which have their advantages and disadvantages depending on what you are playing and what other instruments or singists you are playing with
logic in some ways says go for a continental chromatic and dispense with the need for MAD! Been there - done that - but I must be a sook an blaw man at heart 'cos it didn't last!
george
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I play an A/D/G box, and I've been learning ITM for the last few years and I've been learning from joe burke and finbarr dwyer ect. And you can teach yourself to sound pretty much like a semitone player of course not exactly it's just getting the right mind set when learning, you can play pretty much any kind of music on any box if you wanted to
Hit the nail on the head there Ashley
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How do you play an F natural on a D/G or an A/D/G box ? On the charts I've seen there appears to be an F nat on the low end of the inside row, I ask because there are some Irish tunes in G where an F nat crops up which really makes the tune.
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How do you play an F natural on a D/G or an A/D/G box ? On the charts I've seen there appears to be an F nat on the low end of the inside row, I ask because there are some Irish tunes in G where an F nat crops up which really makes the tune.
You use the Fnat that you found, or play the tune in D and the Fnat becomes a Cnat which is easier to locate.
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I know that's why I had a special A/D/G made with stradella bass, I have 3 octaves of f, 3 octaves of Eb, 3 octaves of Bb and a low g which is also handy for Irish music, but on a standard adg there is a f on the push on the g row and middle f on the pull on the a row, but tunes like yellow tinker and bunch of keys ect. Don't sound all that great on a dg cause of no f bass... But it is doable as Lester said such tunes are easy in D just cross over to the c
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I know that's why I had a special A/D/G made with stradella bass, I have 3 octaves of f, 3 octaves of Eb, 3 octaves of Bb and a low g which is also handy for Irish music, but on a standard adg there is a f on the push on the g row and middle f on the pull on the a row, but tunes like yellow tinker and bunch of keys ect. Don't sound all that great on a dg cause of no f bass... But it is doable as Lester said such tunes are easy in D just cross over to the c
I would love to see the layout that you came up with for the treble side (as would others I'm sure).
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I have a wonderful DG Modell 2 with F natural in the helper row.
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I know that's why I had a special A/D/G made with stradella bass, I have 3 octaves of f, 3 octaves of Eb, 3 octaves of Bb and a low g which is also handy for Irish music, but on a standard adg there is a f on the push on the g row and middle f on the pull on the a row, but tunes like yellow tinker and bunch of keys ect. Don't sound all that great on a dg cause of no f bass... But it is doable as Lester said such tunes are easy in D just cross over to the c
I would love to see the layout that you came up with for the treble side (as would others I'm sure).
Sure I got a proper image some where I must dig it out!
From chin:
G row top button F pull Eb push, 2nd button the same but octave higher last button (knee) pull Eb push high Bb.
D row top button low G both push and pull, 2nd button low C pull Middle Bb push
A Row top button low F pull, low Bb push
It's a 37 key beastie! But it seems to work perfect for me
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I have a wonderful DG Modell 2 with F natural in the helper row.
Wouldn't you know it: now we're talking about 'F' in melodeons ... 'spose you have to expect that on mel.net ::)
[sorry, I'll be getting my coat]
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You use the Fnat that you found, or play the tune in D and the Fnat becomes a Cnat which is easier to locate.
So the f nat at the bottom end then is a low f (f3 ? or f4?) if so then it's not that useful if you want f5 (which is in a couple of tunes I play) - playing in D is an option if you are playing the tune on it's own but not if it's in a set or you're playing in a session.
This may help answer the OP's question about B/C versus D/G.
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on a standard 2 row DG etc box if you havn't got the required accidental at the chin end you havn't got it!
alternatives in decreasing order of practicality and increasing order of cost are
free of charge fake it
free of charge choose a different tune
expensive buy a Dg box with an extra ro or part row of accidentals
expensive and requiring re learning go for a chromatic semitone box ( and lose the highly rhythmic DG bass)
expensive , heavy and requiring relearning go for a Shand Morino with 105 or 117 stradella bass and you have everything required on both ends!
george ;)
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Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
...in stark contrast to the attitude in ITM circles, where England and all things English are spoken of in tones of hushed reverence ;)
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Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
...in stark contrast to the attitude in ITM circles, where England and all things English are spoken of in tones of hushed reverence ;)
(:)
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Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
...in stark contrast to the attitude in ITM circles, where England and all things English are spoken of in tones of hushed reverence ;)
(:)
I think this a road of which we might peer down the entrance but shouldn't go down.
:|bl
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seconded!
george
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...in stark contrast to the attitude in ITM circles, where England and all things English are spoken of in tones of hushed reverence
Here we go again - I've been playing folk music since the 60's - American, Blues, English folk tunes and of late (20 years ish) mainly ITM in sessions etc. In all that time I can't remember hearing any Irish trad muscian knocking English trad music (heard plenty of English people doing so).
But on this forum I'm constantly hearing snide remarks about ITM, it's the kind of stuff I'd expect to hear from a bunch of kids!
Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players
My impression also (some of them)
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Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.
...in stark contrast to the attitude in ITM circles, where England and all things English are spoken of in tones of hushed reverence ;)
This comment seems to imply that this forum is a place to right wrongs committed in other places - by means of innuendo and snide comments. If that were true, consider for a moment what that makes us all look like.
So please, let us not go down that road, or even, as Steve FR said, peer into its entrance (although that sounds more like a tunnel).
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Hear hear! Thanks Steve.
...or even, as Steve FR said, peer into its entrance (although that sounds more like a tunnel).
Hmm... I think I must be letting my mining background show through. ;)
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Seems to me like make it up as you go along. SO, " Calm down dear!" and appreciate others tastes.
I think it was Voltaire who said " I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
" Calm down dear!" - who's that aimed at?
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I'm with Benny Hill ;D ... Road of Cobras ;D
Smile ....... (that's aimed at everyone :-* )
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Just having a bad Five minutes. :-\
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As one of the sages of mel.net says, "different horses for different courses" - no styles or systems are better than any other - if it sounds good it is good.
I am saddened that there is a hint of snarky mustard-board attitude creeping into melodeon.net - even if you think your comment will be understood as being said with a twinkle in your eye, don't presume others will interpret your post that way.
People: be nice - let's keep mel.net friendly - come on - we're button accordion players.