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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Boyen on March 15, 2014, 01:24:43 PM

Title: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 15, 2014, 01:24:43 PM
I was listening to a version of Inisheer on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktzJc1IhS14
And I noticed many cuts on the long notes, I tried to replicate the sound and noticed there's two ways you could do a cut.

https://app.box.com/s/0yy22iqd9vqdvm1mvv3q
Hold the note, play the grace note while holding the original note.

https://app.box.com/s/u0hdo48xulsy0oekrc5u
Release note, play grace note, play original note.

The second version will probably require a bit more finesse from my part as I don't have the technique under control. Anyway, is either of the two above techniques preferred? Which one sounds the most "Irish" or correct?
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 15, 2014, 01:45:25 PM
I can't answer your main question but I think the ornament you're using is an upper mordent (a turn?) not a cut note. As I understand it a cut is a very short note played immediately before and sharing the duration of the main note, usually the cut note is a tone higher than the main note.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 15, 2014, 02:26:27 PM
Hah.. so things get more complicated then. I don't quite understand your explanation though, it is played before the note and shares duration?

I've been going by Hans's squaazebox site mostly: http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/irishbox/ornamnts.html
And one of his explanations is what I'm doing in my second example, I think (?). Except I don't go a half step lower but a half step higher, which seems to correspond with what I hear in the youtube video, or is that not the case?
Quote
Sometimes a grace note lower than the note being ornamented is used, and in this case, typically the note a half-step lower is used, creating the impression of "sliding onto" the actual note. This note lies directly beside the note to be ornamented, but on the outside row. It can be played simply by sliding off this lower note onto the note you wanted to play, using the same finger, or with 2 fingers, using the index for the ornament note and the middle for the actual note. These lower-pitched grace notes are sometimes referred to as "dip".
Though I have to admit that I'm not sure at all about the duration of each note in this sequence. I might have played something closer to a short roll.. too many variations  :Ph
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 15, 2014, 06:10:09 PM
I don't quite understand your explanation though, it is played before the note and shares duration?

This means that the cut note starts on the beat when the main note should, so it steals a fraction of a second at the beginning of the beat and the main note still ends when it should.

Quote
I've been going by Hans's squaazebox site mostly: http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/irishbox/ornamnts.html
And one of his explanations is what I'm doing in my second example, I think (?). Except I don't go a half step lower but a half step higher, which seems to correspond with what I hear in the youtube video, or is that not the case?
Quote
Sometimes a grace note lower than the note being ornamented is used, and in this case, typically the note a half-step lower is used, creating the impression of "sliding onto" the actual note. This note lies directly beside the note to be ornamented, but on the outside row. It can be played simply by sliding off this lower note onto the note you wanted to play, using the same finger, or with 2 fingers, using the index for the ornament note and the middle for the actual note. These lower-pitched grace notes are sometimes referred to as "dip".
Though I have to admit that I'm not sure at all about the duration of each note in this sequence. I might have played something closer to a short roll.. too many variations  :Ph

I can't really comment here as I don't play in Irish style and it sounds as if this is a semitone box like B/C or D/D# that is under discussion. If you play an ornament that uses a lower note than the main note it's called a lower mordant but I've no idea what the trad name for that is!
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Gromit on March 15, 2014, 08:46:06 PM
Release note, play grace note, play original note.

Is how I play a cut on a BC box - in other words for cutting on a G I lift my finger off the G button and quickly "tap" the B button before returning to the G button (it's like "cutting" into the G) - I don't play the B while the G is sounding which I think is what you are doing in the 1st example,

This is the nearest I can get to a cut that I play on the flute.

The other box  technique described by tallship is starting with the grace note (B) before playing the G so it's as above without playing the G first.



Hope this makes sense
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: oolong32 on March 15, 2014, 08:53:50 PM
This means that the cut note starts on the beat when the main note should, so it steals a fraction of a second at the beginning of the beat and the main note still ends when it should.

Isn't this rhythmically inconsistent? Even if the ornamented note only shifts by a fraction of a second, it's still out of time. While I am no Irishman (sorry) I'd still like to advocate for the ornament (cut) to be played just before your foot hits the ground, and the ornamented note stays on the beat and in time.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: arty on March 15, 2014, 09:22:57 PM
I was listening to a version of Inisheer on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktzJc1IhS14


Grace notes are a 'decoration' and should enhance the music one is playing. I have tried to listen twice, to the YouTube clip you attach and I can't bear it because the grace notes / decorations that the melodeon player adds, in my view, totally destroy the whole feel of this completely beautiful piece of music. Please don't try and copy him, it's not nice IMHO.

I adore Inisheer, I play it and listen to it often. This is my favourite version on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywycZb3UMA0. Listen to it and you will hear very subtle but few grace notes while the fiddle player plays Inisheer, because they are not needed, the tune is beautiful enough as it is.

If you want to hear grace notes played well and the different ways of doing them, then you can't go wrong by getting John Kirkpatrick's video, 'How to Play the English Melodeon'.

Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 15, 2014, 09:31:19 PM
Release note, play grace note, play original note.

Is how I play a cut on a BC box - in other words for cutting on a G I lift my finger off the G button and quickly "tap" the B button before returning to the G button (it's like "cutting" into the G) - I don't play the B while the G is sounding which I think is what you are doing in the 1st example,
Makes a lot of sense thanks! I did indeed play the B while the G is sounding, to my ears it seems closer to what is done on the video but maybe I just can't perform the cut fast enough. Any name for an ornament that holds the note while gracing? Probably not traditional I'm guessing  (:).

What is the timing on the release note, play grace and play original?

Grace notes are a 'decoration' and should enhance the music one is playing. I have tried to listen twice, to the YouTube clip you attach and I can't bear it because the grace notes / decorations that the melodeon player adds, in my view, totally destroy the whole feel of this completely beautiful piece of music. Please don't try and copy him, it's not nice IMHO.
Don't worry, it's for educational purposes only. I was just thinking about how I could put feeling in the music.
Nice version of Inisheer indeed! It's played with so much feeling.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 15, 2014, 10:35:21 PM
Isn't this rhythmically inconsistent? Even if the ornamented note only shifts by a fraction of a second, it's still out of time. While I am no Irishman (sorry) I'd still like to advocate for the ornament (cut) to be played just before your foot hits the ground, and the ornamented note stays on the beat and in time.

I don't understand your point I'm afraid. Didn't I make it clear that the grace (appoggiatura) or cut note and the main note take the space of a single beat? The ornamented note doesn't shift at all and is never out of time. This has nothing to do with Irish music or the understanding thereof, you may advocate anything you wish but a cut note is defined by standard music theory. A cut makes the main note pop out like a cork from a bottle, it emphasises the note but doesn't steal the thunder by coming in early. YMMV
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Gromit on March 16, 2014, 12:02:20 AM
Here's a trad version I thought was quite good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6sp2X9Rmgs

Here is one of Steve's excellent videos showing a cut at around 1.14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRzXZ3q8Pg

He has lots of good videos to learn from (plays C sharp/D but still relevant for B/C IMHO)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 16, 2014, 12:12:30 AM
I agree with all of your point Gromit as they emphasise everything I have said!
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Idelone on March 16, 2014, 02:40:12 AM
Boyen,
If it is of interest to you, in one of my saxophone exercise books, I do have a reasonably clear verbal and visual explanation of the grace note, double grace note, the turn, and the mordent, similar in style to the Han Speek article. I would be quite happy to scan the relevant pages for you, (hoping that I do not infringe copyright of course) and send them to you. I'm not sure if it's possible to send attachments via this site, but I'm sure somebody will enlighten me as to whether this can be done. Although this might not necessarily be what you are looking for, it does show that some ornamental notes are jammed in ahead of the beat, and that others are taken from the note value to be decorated, as mentioned in the previous postings.
Let me know if you would like a copy, regards, Ian
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 16, 2014, 10:07:18 AM
Here is one of Steve's excellent videos showing a cut at around 1.14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRzXZ3q8Pg
He doesn't seem to lift his finger off the main note or is it just a very subtle movement?

@Ian, that might help, thanks a lot for the offer.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: NormanB on March 16, 2014, 10:51:54 AM
You may also wish to look at the B/C lessons on Online Academy of Irish Music site. www.oaim.ie were cuts are described and demonstrated
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 16, 2014, 11:16:14 AM
This page may be of interest (http://www.irishworldacademy.ie/inbhear/volume-1/n-keegan/v1-i1-n-keegan-02.html) as it has audio samples and notation for individual ornaments used in ITM
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 16, 2014, 11:27:37 AM
This page may be of interest (http://www.irishworldacademy.ie/inbhear/volume-1/n-keegan/v1-i1-n-keegan-02.html) as it has audio samples and notation for individual ornaments used in ITM
Excellent site! That's extremely useful for me thanks  (:)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Gromit on March 16, 2014, 06:40:29 PM
Quote
He doesn't seem to lift his finger off the main note or is it just a very subtle movement?

Yes it looks as though he doesn't in that video, if I lift my finger on my box it sounds crisper than if I don't.

Found what I was looking for -  this was a about "how to do an Irish roll" and as a cut is the first part of a roll it may help.

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8150.0.html

Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Lyn on March 16, 2014, 07:46:58 PM
I was listening to a version of Inisheer on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktzJc1IhS14


Grace notes are a 'decoration' and should enhance the music one is playing. I have tried to listen twice, to the YouTube clip you attach and I can't bear it because the grace notes / decorations that the melodeon player adds, in my view, totally destroy the whole feel of this completely beautiful piece of music. Please don't try and copy him, it's not nice IMHO.

Totally agree, it sounds awful, like the box player has hiccoughs! What a dreadful thing to do to this beautiful tune. :'(

I
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: george garside on March 16, 2014, 08:12:04 PM
[

Grace notes are a 'decoration' and should enhance the music one is playing.  I
[/quote]

Well said Lyn!.   In my opinion anything that comes under the heading of ''non tune twiddles''  ( or fancy individual names for different types of 'twiddles' should always be used sparingly  and only where they definitely enhance the tune, which can of course sometimes be not at all! 

I think there is sometimes a tendency to shove  a random selection in just because  one can  - and even sometimes when  one can't!

George.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 16, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
All these decorations should be applied "with discretion". Great technical stuff, but they are neither melody, nor its "development"  ::)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Stiamh on March 16, 2014, 11:03:12 PM
Quote
He doesn't seem to lift his finger off the main note or is it just a very subtle movement?
Yes it looks as though he doesn't in that video, if I lift my finger on my box it sounds crisper than if I don't.

That's right - you get a quite different effect and as far I am concerned both methods are equally valid. But to the question of which is more "correct" or "Irish", I think you should make up your own mind.  (:)

You seem to be interested in the Irish tradition. Just bear in mind that the advice and opinions of people who are not well versed in the aesthetics of the Irish tradition (even if they are top-notch box players) may be of limited or no use.

My advice: get some CDs of players that you like and listen to them very attentively - i.e. not as background or mood music. Preferably soloists rather than bands. Make sure you have recordings by a few fiddlers, pipers and fluters in your collection.

«rant alert»I think there's a certain danger in trying to execute techniques from descriptions of what finger should be used when and how and so on. In that if you don't know what you want the ornament or whatever to sound like - from attentive listening to the playing of people who know what they are doing in the tradition that interests you, and preferably to a wide variety of such people, on different instruments - then following instructions about what finger to use (for example) won't necessarily produce a satisfactory result.

Whereas if you know what the music you want to play sounds like (from attentive listening over time, preferably etc. etc.) then such instructions may well be useful, because you will have a good basis for judging whether what you are doing adds to or detracts from the music, or sounds good or horrible (to people well versed in the tradition that interests you etc. etc.). «/rant alert»
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Gromit on March 16, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
Quote
In my opinion anything that comes under the heading of ''non tune twiddles''  ( or fancy individual names for different types of 'twiddles' should always be used sparingly  and only where they definitely enhance the tune

Quote
All these decorations should be applied "with discretion"

I agree - sparingly and with discretion is good, I feel the same way about the oom-pah bass playing that crops up in some box playing - it ruins the tune for me :)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on March 17, 2014, 07:03:42 AM
Oompah, guilty Guv. I 'ope yule be lenient wiv me sentence  :-*
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Lyra on March 17, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
Quote
In my opinion anything that comes under the heading of ''non tune twiddles''  ( or fancy individual names for different types of 'twiddles' should always be used sparingly  and only where they definitely enhance the tune
Quote
All these decorations should be applied "with discretion"

If you can't hear the tune for the twiddles then you're doing it wrong. Listen to a piper playing it - being armpit powered they have to use twiddles to punctuate, but these should be almost subliminal.
Compare my band of the moment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwJdkPjraNw&list=RD-tzTmJXS574 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwJdkPjraNw&list=RD-tzTmJXS574). Tune clear as crystal but if you slow it down and check there isn't a note without at least one twiddle, most of which you don't notice.

So, imho, it's not the quantity that matters - it's the quality/subtlety and relevance. Much as I worship the flute he blows down, I'd not really want to hear Kevin giving Princess Royal the Lúnasa treatment. Although Cillian is playing the pipes on the next Bruce Springsteen album which is quite mind boggling.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: george garside on March 17, 2014, 09:25:36 AM
[  ]

Quote
All these decorations should be applied "with discretion"

I agree - sparingly and with discretion is good, I feel the same way about the oom-pah bass playing that crops up in some box playing - it ruins the tune for me :)

To me the simplest and most effective ornamentation for um pa ists  is to just leave the bass off for a bit of the tune here and there.  It is particularly effective if done where there is a fancy bit of melody as the emphasis is automatically thrown onto that significant' part of the tune.  It can be done for a few notes or a few bars depending on the tune and the rhythm will not be lost provided ,as it should be, it is inherent in the way the  melody is played.  The run down in harvest home is a place where it can be effective.

george
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 17, 2014, 10:49:44 AM
Yes, "silence" as an ornament, here left end but also the space between notes, or a note replacement is much underrated. Naragonia do it very well.

Congrats to George in getting his post below(rather than mixed in with) the quote ;) 

Ever forward .. off to Broadgreen :|glug
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Stiamh on March 17, 2014, 11:50:29 AM
If you can't hear the tune for the twiddles then you're doing it wrong.

Nicely put. Another angle: if the listener can't hear the tune for the twiddles...

Quote
Tune clear as crystal but if you slow it down and check there isn't a note without at least one twiddle, most of which you don't notice.

The "you" is key here. I'd suggest that the listener well-versed in the tradition will be well aware of them all.  (:)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Peter G on March 17, 2014, 10:11:44 PM
Quote Totally agree, it sounds awful, like the box player has hiccoughs! What a dreadful thing to do to this beautiful tune. :'(
According to comments on the Takahero Kunugi clip Thomas Walsh wrote the tune  :-[ I guess he wouldn't be the first to murder his own tune - Dylan did it regularly!  ;D
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Boyen on March 17, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Thomas Walsh didn't play in the link I provided. Thomas Walsh is a button box player though! This one is supposed to be him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGswCTCs2Vg&list=UUOCpw5a80LYja-dzoUVIchg

I don't know if the teaching and learning section of this site is the right place to burn someones performance... His version is different and it might not appeal to you but it doesn't have a lot to do with how to play a cut or grace note :-X

Thanks everyone for the advice, this place always comes through for me  :|||:
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: gettabettabox on March 17, 2014, 10:49:06 PM
looks like/sounds like...the same lad in both. I personally prefer the way he swings or half-waltzes the first version. (listen to that a few times, you might just be humming it tomorrow?)..ha! maybe not?
good enough player in my book, cuts or no.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: gettabettabox on March 17, 2014, 11:39:37 PM
maybe not the same!...but both b/c style.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Lyra on March 18, 2014, 12:33:32 AM
The "you" is key here. I'd suggest that the listener well-versed in the tradition will be well aware of them all.  (:)
I think what I meant was you are aware of the overall effect, you know they are happening, but no individual twiddle is sufficently dominant for you to be aware of it unless that's the intent of the performer (as opposed to just ham fistedness  :|bl ).
You could possibly apply the same logic to eg English tunes - aware of the, um, "pumpy liftiness" but not overtly conscious of how it is achieved, and very aware when it descends to plain lumpiness?
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 18, 2014, 11:59:08 PM
"pumpy liftiness"

I'm agog to know where imaginative descriptions of tempo and dynamics will lead us to next! Farty bounciness and poncy preening perhaps?  :|bl  :|glug
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Peter G on March 20, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
Thomas Walsh didn't play in the link I provided. Thomas Walsh is a button box player though! This one is supposed to be him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGswCTCs2Vg&list=UUOCpw5a80LYja-dzoUVIchg

Aha! Closer scrutiny reveals it was played by 'Donegal's own.... Shaun Sweeney, Morgan Ferriter and Frank Doherty...' But Thomas Walsh adds the comment 'Well done lads - Lovely version'
I am also uncomfortable about criticising someone else's style as I know how devastating that would be for me - but I am a beginner. I reckon if you've played in Irish pubs most of your life you can probably hack a little 'constructive criticism?
 :||:
 
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Stiamh on March 20, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
Yes, Peter, but all these negative comments by English players about the ornamentation/articulation used by Irish box players strikes me as analogous to a morris dancer watching a ballerina and saying he doesn't like the footwork!  >:E

Yes I'm using an extreme example to make a point... but only 'cos I know you lads can take a bit of constructive criticism.  (:)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Gromit on March 20, 2014, 07:48:47 PM
Quote
analogous to a morris dancer watching a ballerina and saying he doesn't like the footwork!  >:E

Very good!
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 20, 2014, 08:01:12 PM
Same applies to jazz, it doesn't really sound good if a wall of fancy technical stuff submerges the underlying improvised line.

Irish, in contrast has (IMHO) fidelity to tune as "part of the tradition" and I think the various cuts, rolls and mordamts are an important part of its "lift", all the more so if these happen on different instuments and the others "give space". But Irish sessions are … Irish sessions.

Discretion, as ever in music? (I exclude heavy metal rock this).
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Andrew Wigglesworth on March 21, 2014, 10:09:05 AM
That's right ... <snip> ... «/rant alert»

Good rant   ;)   I think this is top notch advice.

You really need to build the intuitive reflexes for the tradition, and that can only be done over time, by listening closely to a lot of players, and especially *not* just listening to box players or to large ensembles. Individuals (and duos) are best as Steve says. Even better in some ways is sitting next to good players week after week at a session. Tunes and traditions often live a rather different (and more varied) life away from the concert hall and the commercial recording.

From the English end of things, John Kirkpatrick comments in the intro to one of his tune books how he automatically (unconsciously) puts the "twiddles" into the tunes he plays and finds it difficult to play them "straight", even for demonstration purposes. It's the way that he feels and hears the tunes, and that's what is translated onto the box.

There was a comment some years ago on this forum that often a tune will let you know when it's ready for you. That is, you'll surprise yourself by "accidentally" playing a tune whilst practicing, one that you'd considered too difficult or inaccessible before. It has sunk into your unconscious mind and starts appearing almost of its own volition. That's the point at which to worry about the technicalities of that particular tune that you never "got" before. I think it's at the point at which you've learnt enough control of the instrument and internalised the musical style that the decorations will start to appear because that is how you are now hearing and expressing the tune. That's the time, I think, to look more closely at the technicalities and worry about them, don't force the issue, it'll just sound and feel awkward and artificial.

Lastly, at the end of my ramblings (which were meant to be a just short statement of agreement with Steve  ::)  ), remember that there is not just one way to do all this. Irish traditional music, even after much of it was reimported from the States on early recordings, even after modern communications and transport links, still retains regional styles, and particularly influential individuals who influenced generations of players in particular areas, what you do with that is up to you, but it's something to bear in mind.
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: Peter G on March 24, 2014, 08:47:59 PM
Yes, Peter, but all these negative comments by English players about the ornamentation/articulation used by Irish box players strikes me as analogous to a morris dancer watching a ballerina and saying he doesn't like the footwork!  >:E

Yes I'm using an extreme example to make a point... but only 'cos I know you lads can take a bit of constructive criticism.  (:)
As a morris dancing vegetarian homeopathic vet  who supports Sheffield Wednesday coping with criticism is easy!
 ;D :||:
BTW how do get quotes to come up in a nice little blue box?


Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: boxcall on March 24, 2014, 10:58:29 PM
Yes, Peter, but all these negative comments by English players about the ornamentation/articulation used by Irish box players strikes me as analogous to a morris dancer watching a ballerina and saying he doesn't like the footwork!  >:E

Yes I'm using an extreme example to make a point... but only 'cos I know you lads can take a bit of constructive criticism.  (:)
As a morris dancing vegetarian homeopathic vet  who supports Sheffield Wednesday coping with criticism is easy!
 ;D :||:
BTW how do get quotes to come up in a nice little blue box?
just do what you did on your last post ;)
Title: Re: Cut/Grace Note
Post by: KLR on March 25, 2014, 12:06:12 AM
If you can't hear the tune for the twiddles then you're doing it wrong. Listen to a piper playing it - being armpit powered they have to use twiddles to punctuate, but these should be almost subliminal.

The chanter of the pipes can be silenced at any time, you don't need to use gracings of any sort to emphasize things.  There are also decorations like sliding into notes, or raising the chanter up, which increases the volume and modifies the pitch, that aren't "twiddly" either.

The bellows powering the pipes has absolutely nothing to do with the ornamentation used, either. 
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