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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cardiff Pauly on April 29, 2014, 02:00:22 PM

Title: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Cardiff Pauly on April 29, 2014, 02:00:22 PM
....hmmm I used to play in a band and it was quite easy to involve yourself, and not be found wanting, so to speak!
Playing solo these days, I just wonder what the panel think, as to how you know when you are good at it!  8)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: EastAnglianTed on April 29, 2014, 02:45:45 PM
    When you can play without looking  ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: TomB-R on April 29, 2014, 03:28:25 PM
When I was first playing fiddle solo for a dance side, people used to come up and tell me how they were learning fiddle. I think "too" was left unsaid.

I hope I've got a bit better, they don't do that any more!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: GPS on April 29, 2014, 03:33:31 PM
....when another player asks, "How do you do that?" (whatever "that" may be in the particular circumstances).
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Rob2Hook on April 29, 2014, 03:39:24 PM
It's not an absolute, but inversely relative to how often you doubt your own competence.

Rob.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Prestidigitator on April 29, 2014, 04:08:10 PM
    When you can play without looking  ;)

At what? The instrument, the dots, or the prettiest girl in the room?
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: EastAnglianTed on April 29, 2014, 04:13:44 PM
    Haha, the girl of course!  :D
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on April 29, 2014, 04:14:24 PM
Someone posts "who was the chap with the Oakwood, playing the weird French stuff"? on melodeon.net. :|bl OK, it's not RCM stuff, but it did my ego good, and started me on the forum.

More seriously … some good players get a ripple of applause after a solo spot, but others are in the heart of the session and actually get everyone else playing better. Not a simple issue?
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Cardiff Pauly on April 29, 2014, 04:14:35 PM
Tom B-R, good answer, made me chuckle did that!  8)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: GPS on April 29, 2014, 04:23:05 PM
    When you can play without looking  ;)

At what? The instrument, the dots, or the prettiest girl in the room?

I reckon I'm doing extremely well if I can play to an acceptable standard and STILL look at the prettiest girl in the room....
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on April 29, 2014, 05:01:22 PM
How about … your play making the prettiest woman in the room notice YOU?

    There have been occasions …
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: EastAnglianTed on April 29, 2014, 05:21:05 PM
    In all honesty, I think that I agree with:

....when another player asks, "How do you do that?" (whatever "that" may be in the particular circumstances).

    It is relative though isn't it really  :D
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: TomB on April 29, 2014, 05:38:44 PM
All players are good, but some are gooder than others  :||: :P
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Stiamh on April 29, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
I don't think you can ever (really) know that you are a (really) good player, because good is relative, it's like the top of a hill that recedes as you ascend. And as soon as you get cocky about things you'll hear someone who really is good and that'll bring you down to earth pronto.

There does come a time when you become reasonably happy with what you can do though (after years of low-level dissatisfaction); that's a good enough goal for me and, as said earlier, it's nice when someone comes over to say they enjoyed your music.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: ladydetemps on April 29, 2014, 06:38:41 PM
I for one know i'll never be good enough.
P.s. Not interested in the pretty ladies.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: arty on April 29, 2014, 07:44:32 PM
I think, the day you know you are good at it is the day you stop learning.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: GPS on April 29, 2014, 07:52:02 PM
I think, the day you know you are good at it is the day you stop learning.

Actually I think that's probably the day you stop being good (assuming you were good in the first place!). The only day I can imagine stopping learning is the day I die; there's no-one - NO-ONE - who's so good at anything that they can afford to stop learning.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Stiamh on April 29, 2014, 07:55:26 PM
I think that is the point arty was making, Graham.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Ollie on April 29, 2014, 08:30:21 PM
I think for me it was when I looked back at some old recordings from when I'd just started playing, and realised how far I'd come in just over a year. Comments from members here when I've posted videos and sound files in the past were also a nice ego massage.  :P

I don't think realising your abilities is a bad thing, as long as you are level headed about it. Being confident in your abilities is key, and knowing how good you are at some things but not at others is also key to the learning process; it helps you focus and consolidate. As long as you don't think that you're better than you are, then it's fine.

P.S - also not interested in the pretty ladies.

Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: GPS on April 29, 2014, 08:30:38 PM
You could be right, Steve - I didn't read it that way, for which I apologise.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: arty on April 29, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
I think, the day you know you are good at it is the day you stop learning.

Actually I think that's probably the day you stop being good (assuming you were good in the first place!). The only day I can imagine stopping learning is the day I die; there's no-one - NO-ONE - who's so good at anything that they can afford to stop learning.

Yes GPS, I agree with you completely, that is exactly what I meant. It is just that your words are clearer than mine.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: george garside on April 29, 2014, 10:36:16 PM
it could be viewed as a sort of 'graded' thing .  i.e.  somebody may see themself   as a 'good ' player after 12 months on the box and indeed it may well be true when judged  by what is generally achieved with 12 months experience. But if they were playing the same after ,say, 5 years it could well be seen as crap playing! So in other words its a moving feast.

There are , I suppose some indicators given by others that can lead a player to viewing him or her self as being a good player  such as the amount of clapping where that is the custom eg in some folk clubs ( but beware of the sympathy clap!).   Being specifically asked to play somewhere or join, or even 'sit in ' with a 'band' can also be an encouraging sign of progress.   To me  one of the best indications of a good dance player either solo or band is the ability to get the feet of those sitting out/standing around tapping


From a personal angle I see being a 'good player'' as a constantly moving target that is never reached!  In other words I agree totally with Graham (GPS)  that becoming a 'good player' is a lifelong learning curve and if you ever sit back  thinking you have achieved it you  are well and truly buggered!

george
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on April 29, 2014, 11:58:48 PM
I know I'm not a good player, but I also know that I'm getting better at it. I'm starting to think of "A" as an achievable objective on a D/G (Thank you George!) and can almost get away with plying for some dancing. I AM interested in young ladies, but sadly they are not interested in me.  :(
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Howard Jones on April 30, 2014, 09:05:34 AM
I think one mark of a good player is realising that the better you get the more there is to learn
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: TomB on April 30, 2014, 10:16:57 AM
In that case I'll never be a good player, as the more I learn, the faster the goal posts move.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Cardiff Pauly on April 30, 2014, 10:29:08 AM
  8) Wow, lots of feedback, particularly felt that George nailed it!
Should be a "was this article useful" box, so I could tick it! Cheers folks!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: ACE on April 30, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
Good on some tunes, adequate on  others, useless on even more while I practise them a lot until they get good. Then it starts all over again. Now if their was such a thing as reincarnation and you all stopped composing and finding new tunes, I might even catch up and be a good player.

Not that I really believe in reincarnation, I didn't believe it when I was Mozart and I ain't starting now. ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on April 30, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
First you need to define 'good'.......eg

Was Albert Farmer good ? (A very "'rustic" player).

Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on April 30, 2014, 01:26:38 PM
My wife likened my hobby of playing box to hers ( quilting ).
She rightly said ' we both have hobbies in which we will continue to learn and improve for life.......'  and that's the way I look at it.
Therefore it is always a continual learning curve, knowing you're good implies stopping on the curve of life!
Q
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Cooper on April 30, 2014, 01:34:37 PM
As a side note: i always think that there is a difference between being a good musician and being a good melodeonist.

A good musician can make a real contribution to a tune/song/session without being good at the instrument in hand. Knowing/feeling exactly when to play those 2 chords he knows for example.

A good melodeonist can control his instrument/bellows very well, and his fingers can hit the right buttons at a considerable speed. Yet it is possible he still has to learn how to make music with all the abilities he has.

W
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Rob2Hook on April 30, 2014, 01:40:23 PM
I reckon it's a mark of one's progress when you recognise how much better others are than you.  I recently unearthed a copy of All Buttoned Up (Hemlock Cock and Bull Band).  Deceptively simple, but beautifully played!

Rob.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: GPS on April 30, 2014, 02:35:11 PM
I reckon it's a mark of one's progress when you recognise how much better others are than you.

Couldn't agree more. Also when you recognise that you can learn something from almost any other player, whether they're "better" or "worse" than you are.
Graham
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on April 30, 2014, 06:36:24 PM
Is a proposition that good musicians are good listeners emerging? Utterly true in jazz, and I'd assert the same in folk session music, but would anyone else agree? …
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Guy on April 30, 2014, 07:25:43 PM
Is a proposition that good musicians are good listeners emerging? Utterly true in jazz, and I'd assert the same in folk session music, but would anyone else agree? …

I would, for one.....
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Gromit on April 30, 2014, 07:29:59 PM
Quote
Is a proposition that good musicians are good listeners emerging?

Of course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3V6zNER4g
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2014, 08:04:25 PM
Indubitably!

george
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on April 30, 2014, 08:13:15 PM
Btw the ability to do any, some, or all the following does not automatically equate to 'good'
- playing fast
- playing lots of accidentals
- playing fancy bass runs
- playing Andy Cutting tunes
- playing in C on a D/G box
- playing 'music for a found harmonium'
- playing across the rows

 >:E

however, I will concede that anyone who can play 'Young Damons Flight', automatically qualifies for being good !

 ;).
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Helena Handcart on April 30, 2014, 08:27:36 PM
I know I'm not a good player and still very far from it. I also know that I will be 'good' (whatever that means) one day and if not I'll have a lot of fun trying. That's enough for me for now.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on April 30, 2014, 08:39:59 PM
I'm not 'good' , and will never claim to be. I'm still learning, and my technique is still improving and not as adept as some other players. Eg I still can't pay the B part of Sportsmanship Hornpipe !

However, some people seem to enjoy my playing,  just like I enjoy the playing of Helena, Nick, Lester, Daddy long les, Anahata, Mike, Bob, Tufty, Tommy, Sandy, George, and lots of others on here. All of whom have different experience and different playing styles.

Hence IMHO 'Good' is not a useful adjective.

Rant over  ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: george garside on April 30, 2014, 08:56:00 PM

Hence IMHO 'Good' is not a useful adjective.

Rant over  ;)


I prefer the term '' half decent''

george
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on April 30, 2014, 09:06:58 PM
I reckon it's a mark of one's progress when you recognise how much better others are than you.

Couldn't agree more. Also when you recognise that you can learn something from almost any other player, whether they're "better" or "worse" than you are.
Graham

LIKE
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on April 30, 2014, 09:09:59 PM

Hence IMHO 'Good' is not a useful adjective.

Rant over  ;)


I prefer the term '' half decent''

george

'Competent' is a much preferred term.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Lyn on April 30, 2014, 11:00:31 PM
I was JUST going to say competent as I was scrolling down the posts, and there you got there before me Pikey! That, or 'confident', which doesn't mean the same as cocky.
But I guess you can exude confidence while at the same time playing quite appallingly. But I hope I have never done that. I have played appallingly, but not whilst exuding confidence!

I suppose - I'm ruminating now - you can be only a little bit goodish, yet play well enough to please people. That has to be something to warm the cockles of your heart. Great to be appreciated. However humble your offering.

Sorry, rambling now, it is getting late. Let's all enjoy having our aspirations, whatever they may be, and hope there will be a few achievements along the way. Night night!  :|||:
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on May 01, 2014, 04:35:09 PM
Well put lyn, as always  (:)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Theo on May 01, 2014, 05:00:18 PM
I believe it is only your audience that can decide if you are a good player.  The good players I know are never satisfied with their own playing, which I suppose means they don't consider their playing to be as good as it could be. 
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: YorkieKen on May 01, 2014, 06:50:22 PM
Spot on Theo, I think you are a good player and a good box fettler too !  8)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Theo on May 01, 2014, 07:09:21 PM
Thank you Ken.  Your Saltarelle has just jumped several places up the queue!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on May 01, 2014, 07:28:20 PM
.      Nicely put. Being good is not about "playing well"

hmm, two Fundamental Truths already, we are doing quite well!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: george garside on May 01, 2014, 07:59:15 PM
then perhaps being a 'good player' is about knowing when your not!

george
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Noodle on May 09, 2014, 03:32:09 AM
Firstly, I completely agree with the suggestion that a good musician is able to listen to others in a group, then alter his/her playing if necessary.

I cannot disagree with Pikey's list, either!

For me, I rely on feedback from people listening and whether they enjoyed it.

From a morris (I could hear the groans from some of you from way over here! It has to be mentioned though, given the ego boost it gave and continues to give me) perspective, it was first to be asked to start a dance, then later being nominated as lead musician for Black Pig. Getting compliments from dancers and audience members suggests I'm at least on the right path for playing for dance.

I can never work out whether applause in sessions when I lead a tune/set is for the tune selection, my playing or simply humouring me for 'at least you gave it a go, now someone else can play something better'. Probably the latter.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Gary on May 11, 2014, 09:28:37 AM
...when you are asked if you have a CD of your music for sale ! this happened to me last week and the lady concerned was dissapointed when i said no.She then said to remember to let her know when I have one made.  Also I have had some visitors say how they enjoyed my playing.

I will improve more when I master reading the dots and then organise my sets and practice will become more organised.

Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: george garside on May 11, 2014, 10:43:45 AM

I will improve more when I master reading the dots 





not necessarily!

george
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Anahata on May 11, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
I believe it is only your audience that can decide if you are a good player.

...when you are asked if you have a CD of your music for sale !

Seems to be a consensus here - other people are better judges of whether you're any good.
Your own judgement should always be critical enough to keep up pressure to improve, while not being so harsh as to make you want to give up.

I will improve more when I master reading the dots
As George says, not necessarily, but it might help you with learning and remembering tunes.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 12, 2014, 09:18:24 PM
You know when you are a good player when the wife stops saying " oh! For god's sake"  :neigh:
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on May 13, 2014, 10:07:24 PM
Lol !

Based on our dance out last night, you know you're a good player when the landlady and some of the regulars keep bringing you free beer.....

 :|glug
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Cardiff Pauly on May 14, 2014, 10:41:00 PM
 8) Crikey, free beer for playing a melodeon, sounds good...what tune...You Are My Sunshine?
Saddest song I know, beautiful if sung slow!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on May 14, 2014, 10:52:58 PM
Long way to Tipperary, pack up your troubles, Siegfried Line, run rabbit run, white cliffs of Dover, Delilah, Telstar, Memphis Tennesee, Delilah, Woodland Revels, every tune from Trumpton, Wallace and Gromit, .......  ;) damn, one of those was a 'folk' tune........   ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: IanD on May 15, 2014, 03:51:32 PM
You know when you are a good player when the wife stops saying " oh! For god's sake"  :neigh:
Or at least, not until you've been practising the same tune for four hours...
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Gary Chapin on May 15, 2014, 06:23:37 PM
I find it interesting this reluctance to say, "I'm a good player." Or the assumptions that go along with it ... if you are saying you are good, that means you're saying you have nothing to learn; or that you are done learning; or that you are placing yourself somewhere on a hierarchy.

It was a big step for me when I could say to myself, "Yeah, I'm a good player. I play for dancers. They seem to like it. I play for cafes. They seem to like it. I enjoy what I play. I've been playing for fifteen years, and working hard at it. I play in a couple of bands, and get along with others."  I in no way am saying, "I'm done." I am constantly trying to push myself further. I still have heroes who inspire me, no end. And I have a very clear view of my deficiencies. But ... deficiencies and all ... I think I'm a good box player.

Not great.  But pretty damn okay.

Maybe this is a USA/Brit psychology thing?
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Ollie on May 15, 2014, 07:06:47 PM
I agree entirely, Gary. I think the assumptions that some people have made in the thread connected to recognising your own talent are absurd. I'm like you; I realise that I am a good player, and I recognise my strengths and weaknesses. I'm well aware that my playing is flawed in many ways, and I've still got a lot to learn about certain things, and recognising that I am good at certain things has not impeded my criticism at all.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on May 15, 2014, 11:30:54 PM
Hmm, odd mix of realism, humour, and self deprecation here ::)

I think we should (must, surely?) all try to be good, and also try to recognise when we actually do something well. As Ollie sort of implies, not to do so is a real handicap in practicing out one's faults?
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 16, 2014, 12:51:56 AM
We all do our best. We all think we are good drivers, cars that is .
 If you play for your own enjoyment... Who cares? You do. As has been said before ,when you think you are good you stop improving.
I thought I was good until I joined this forum. The likes of Pikey, Lester, Chris R. Just blew me away.
There are many others too numerous to mention.
The answer? Practice. But most of all enjoy it.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Frank Lee on May 16, 2014, 01:53:27 AM
My stance on this aligns almost exactly with Theo's.  If I start thinking I'm any good at it I'll start gardening again.  I'm always looking for musical inspiration, and finding it all over the place, and for technical inspiration and finding it in folks who've been playing for many years, and sometimes from those who've just started playing and are not learning from a book.  I'll never regard myself as a good player, because I've always just found someone who can do something that's beyond me, and so long as that's the case I'll feel second-rate, but that's the thrill of it - there's always something new to chew on.  I was brought-up on Tyneside where the rather razor-edged mantra was 'self praise is no recommendation', (too true!), and I've just spent a week with a young Japanese girl who said, 'in my country the best music comes from the quietest people', I know what she means!
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Chris Ryall on May 16, 2014, 07:10:53 AM
No need for self praise Frank. You are in there with the Great and the Good. i realised that when I watched you lead that session in Whitby last year. Keep practicing though …  ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 16, 2014, 07:42:38 PM
You know when you are good, by the fact that
when you are totally knackered everyone  says " Oh come on, come on, Oh perlease"  8)

 On another tack. Some years back the phone rang. "Nick, can you spare an evening to play in our band?" ( Famous)
" That's very flattering" says I  " well Nick, we really have scraped the bottom of the barrel"
I can't tell you the name of the band, but it had something to do with plants & having fun..
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: pikey on May 18, 2014, 10:37:02 PM
The jolly geranium band ???  ;)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: BJG on May 31, 2014, 05:47:26 PM
The happy haricots?
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on May 31, 2014, 11:30:16 PM
Ok, you give in.
Your starter for ten Bamber.
Fl...rs & Fr...cs. 8)
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: ACE on June 01, 2014, 09:42:24 AM
Must be my mind, but I always revert to being a mockney, with that band, not just one, but a load of. Just like my box playing at present having to learn a swathe of new tunes for some dancing on the dark side.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: BJG on June 01, 2014, 07:17:43 PM
Ok, you give in.
Your starter for ten Bamber.
Fl...rs & Fr...cs. 8)

So that's your claim to fame...? To have performed with a band which is apparently Cockney rhyming slang for "B*ll*cks"...?

Seriously, I am, in all honesty, moderately impressed.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on June 01, 2014, 07:21:05 PM
Don't be BJG, it was a very short lived appearance.
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: oggiesnr on June 02, 2014, 12:38:52 PM
... when the first three offerings in Tune of the Month inspire you rather than intimidate you  (:)

Steve
Title: Re: You Know When You're A Good Player....
Post by: Helena Handcart on June 02, 2014, 12:52:46 PM
... when the first three offerings in Tune of the Month inspire you rather than intimidate you  (:)

Steve

I like this a lot Steve.  I also look forward to the day when it applies to me  (:)
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