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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Nick Collis Bird on November 09, 2015, 02:13:48 PM

Title: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 09, 2015, 02:13:48 PM
Had a delightful afternoon yesterday over here in Swanage.
I bought Malcolm's Koch... Now come on don't start!
It's a pressed wood in GC and it is in an apalling cosmetic condition, yet unbelievably it plays really really well. Okay, yes there are a few sticky levers but nothing that a forefinger whilst playing can't cure. The cosmetics are terrible and that gives it such character. It certainly goes with steam punk.
 I'll you tube it when I can.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: 911377brian on November 09, 2015, 02:15:50 PM
Got a spare Bb Malcolm?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 09, 2015, 02:19:59 PM
Well, actually - but not a one-row.

Only took it round there to consult the master about the covering material on the frame and bellows.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: 911377brian on November 09, 2015, 04:03:33 PM
That NCB is beginning to make me feel normal..
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 09, 2015, 04:24:49 PM
Is it buckram?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 09, 2015, 04:27:57 PM
It might be - he never actually told me!
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Theo on November 09, 2015, 06:19:34 PM
The ones I've seen have been covered with a textured paper which doesn't wear terribly well.  Sandgrain Rexine is the best match I've managed to find.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 10, 2015, 07:14:48 AM
Wot Theo says
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 11, 2015, 11:50:38 AM
The ones I've seen have been covered with a textured paper which doesn't wear terribly well.  Sandgrain Rexine is the best match I've managed to find.

I've got one of these undergoing a rebuild, and the paper bellows tape is well past its use-by date. I like the Rexine idea; any suggestions as to the best adhesive to use?

Cheers
Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: 911377brian on November 11, 2015, 11:53:52 AM
I've re taped bellows but never replaced the bellows paper. Anyone ever tried vinyl wall paper?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 11, 2015, 11:54:20 AM
From previous conversations, first find your Rexine. Then worry about gluing it.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 11, 2015, 12:25:53 PM
From previous conversations, first find your Rexine. Then worry about gluing it.

Already sourced and in my shopping cart; just wondering about adhesive in case I need a specialist glue that I can order at the same time.

Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 11, 2015, 12:43:53 PM
Okay, first off "Rexine" is not made anymore, you either have a lookalike or old stock.
Rexine is an absolute bastard to glue especially if you have to glue the shiny side to itself. If that's the case rough up the surface with acetone or similar. PVA is the preferred glue but make sure it's the right stuff, woodworkers PVA is not.
As for the bellows paper, paste is preferred but again not wallpaper stuff it's too acidic.
Why spend a lot of time restoring something and then use something that will rot.
  If you find the the PVA is drying too quickly before you can properly position your material, then add a little paste. This will give you a longer "open" time.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 11, 2015, 01:00:55 PM
Brian, I think it will be way too thick. I fancy using some of the Japanese papers when I get a chance. I'm guessing Nick might be taking talking corn paste.

Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 11, 2015, 01:08:33 PM
No Malcolm, I don't eat corn paste!
 Best thing is to buy it in powdered form from bookbinders suppliers. Otherwise rice flour  is the best.
 put rice in a food whizzer until you have a powder, mix with water and slowly bring to the boil as if making a white sauce. When cooling add some thymol crystals to prevent mold. Will keep in the fridge for about a week. So it's probably better to buy the powder and just add cold water.

Edit . For spelling
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 11, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Okay, first off "Rexine" is not made anymore, you either have a lookalike or old stock.
Rexine is an absolute bastard to glue especially if you have to glue the shiny side to itself. If that's the case rough up the surface with acetone or similar. PVA is the preferred glue but make sure it's the right stuff, woodworkers PVA is not.
As for the bellows paper, paste is preferred but again not wallpaper stuff it's too acidic.
Why spend a lot of time restoring something and then use something that will rot.
  If you find the the PVA is drying too quickly before you can properly position your material, then add a little paste. This will give you a longer "open" time.

Thanks Nick. I know Rexine was last made in 2005; the material in my shopping cart is leathercloth from Ratchfords, which they say is as near as dammit. No money has changed hands yet - I'm open to other suggestions for suitable materials. The problem, of course, is the wide bellows frames; bellows tape just doesn't come 2 inches wide!

Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 11, 2015, 02:44:27 PM
Ratchfords, is as near as you can get Graham.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 11, 2015, 06:04:57 PM
problem, of course, is the wide bellows frames; bellows tape just doesn't come 2 inches wide!

Graham
I had some red leather that I was going to use, until I saw the green bellows paper. Hence the visit to chez Collis-Bird to get some advice on alternative materials.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 15, 2015, 08:21:13 AM
Continuing this thread. How important is this machine? I was thinking that I might doctor it for steam punk. Would that be sacrilege? It would still be playable of course but just have bits and pieces added on. :o
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 15, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Well, it's a 1930s pressed wood G/C box with wide bellows frames. The case says Koch, it has a metal action and Hohner air button, so presumably shortly after Koch got taken over.
So not terribly common, but not vanishingly rare.
Didn't get as far as taking photos...
Condition wise, the casework is in quite good shape but has a number of old wormholes. Action works but is rusty. Has its original buttons, including bass buttons. Fingerboard intact but with some wear and a few extra holes. Pallets have probably not been off. Grille is gone (replacement piece of ply with some holes drilled to be re-united on next visit!).
Bellows as discussed but with a number of character-adding repairs and one known leak, but still not bad for holding air. Original candlewick (?) bellows gasket, but not leaking badly.  Reeds have light surface rust but, on a cursory examination, no major pitting and leather valves in fairly good shape for its age. Original wax. (Bass block stamped 880.) Didn't really check tuning but not wildly out as far as I recall.
So restorable, but not economically.
Presently a battle scarred veteran with a lot of character ;D and a bass to make an ocean liner jealous.
So I wouldn't say any great sacrilege. Sounded rather good with Nick playing it, life in the old dog yet. (Same applies to the melodeon.)
Only comment, if you're going to start thrashing it, you might want think about getting the reeds rewaxed and maybe the springs sorted. For light use it seems to be hanging in there.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 15, 2015, 11:13:28 AM
Well Malcolm, that's made me think twice! It might possibly be worth putting back together properly rather than "adapt" it forever. You're right about the basses, whilst playing it overlooking Poole bay from my house, Brittany ferries replied but not quite as deep a resonance. 8)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: rb on November 18, 2015, 02:52:43 PM
Well, it's a 1930s pressed wood G/C box with wide bellows frames. The case says Koch, it has a metal action and Hohner air button, so presumably shortly after Koch got taken over.

I recall reading something that suggested Hohner only kept producing these under the Koch name until around 1931. I've seen Kochs stamped with "original Hohner" on the rear of the fingerboard so I assume these date from the period 1929-31.

I'd be interested to see pics! I just acquired an A/D in nice original cosmetic condition but so leaky around the gaskets that it is more like a personal cooling device.

Oh...and new member here! Hi! ;)

rb

Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 18, 2015, 02:58:59 PM
Hi rb welcome to the forum, I'll try and get some pics up, but I'm not very IT compatible .
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 18, 2015, 04:30:48 PM
I recall reading something that suggested Hohner only kept producing these under the Koch name until around 1931. I've seen Kochs stamped with "original Hohner" on the rear of the fingerboard so I assume these date from the period 1929-31.

 I think you may well be right. Mine (a B♭/E♭) is stamped "Original Hohner" and I believe it's 1930 or very close.

Graham
(Welcome, btw!)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 19, 2015, 01:41:04 AM
Well, it's a 1930s pressed wood G/C box with wide bellows frames. The case says Koch, it has a metal action and Hohner air button, so presumably shortly after Koch got taken over.

Ah, so a very different beast to the poker work Koch models illustrated in Hohner's Catalogue No. 700 (c.1929-30) which shows them still with poker work grilles, open stepped keyboards and wooden actions;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/scan0016.jpg)

or my 1920's 3-row one that was found in a French barn;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/004_1.jpg)

that I want to restore and inspired my question about buckram, seeing that the bellows frames and edges could seriously do with recovering;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/015_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 19, 2015, 07:48:15 AM
Similar case and bellows, but with the Koch legend, and straps on the side. Two row.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 19, 2015, 11:04:12 AM
Similar case and bellows, but with the Koch legend, and straps on the side. Two row.

But yours has the all-metal action, presumably with casein plastic buttons and a closed keyboard, and probably Hohner reeds Malcolm? (They're Koch reeds in mine.)

But is that buckram Nick?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 19, 2015, 12:33:46 PM
Have just nipped ( if that's the word) upstairs to have a look Stephen. No it's not it's a grained paper.
On my advice Theo managed to obtain something very close, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was. It's an age thing.  :-\
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 19, 2015, 01:19:57 PM
No it's not it's a grained paper.

I guess I'm deceived by the thickness of it and the threads running through it then (maybe that was their idea!  ;) ):

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/016_2.jpg)


Quote
... I can't remember what it was. It's an age thing.  :-\

I know the feeling...  :(
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 19, 2015, 01:38:16 PM
 Hmmm, if it was Rexine it wouldn't have separated like that, in fact I don't know a material that would do that. Now it could be- and looks like Mull has been applied. Mull is an open weave linen and gives a better grip when glue is applied as in the spines of books. Mull is used in slip case or box making for added strength and this might be the case (pun) Most materials which are linen based are then sprayed with a chalk based pigment. That's old style Buckram. The modern stuff is different and is sprayed with a plastic type finish likewise Rexine. Therefore I think Mull was applied for added strength.

Edited for spelling :-[
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 19, 2015, 01:41:32 PM
Looking at the photo in enlargement, that's definitely Mull.
  The way to remove it easily is to make up some paste and brush it on. Leave for a while and then gently scrape it off with a knife or similar, it will be very sticky. Because of its age that will be pearl glue, hoof and horn and should present no problems. I despair for the poor restorers in the future who will have to put up with PVA! Unless it's reversible.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 19, 2015, 04:15:16 PM
Similar case and bellows, but with the Koch legend, and straps on the side. Two row.

But yours has the all-metal action, presumably with casein plastic buttons and a closed keyboard, and probably Hohner reeds Malcolm? (They're Koch reeds in mine.)


Well it's Nick's now, but yes. Don't know what Koch reeds look like but pretty sure Hohner v

Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 19, 2015, 05:37:39 PM
Don't know what Koch reeds look like ...

They're stamped with the Koch "Mira" chamois (mountain goat-antelope) head trade mark:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/014_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 19, 2015, 09:27:05 PM
... Most materials which are linen based are then sprayed with a chalk based pigment. That's old style Buckram. The modern stuff is different and is sprayed with a plastic type finish likewise Rexine. Therefore I think Mull was applied for added strength.

Well I guess it would have been "old style" that they used in the 1920s - and I don't suppose there's likely to be the odd roll of that (in brown even!) laying around anywhere...  ???

Do you think there would be any problems/difficulties in using "the modern stuff" to cover both the bellows frames and edges?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Theo on November 19, 2015, 10:14:29 PM
I've used modern materials to cover similar boxes with wide bellows frames. I've successfully used both buckram and Rexine. There are many different colours and textures of buckram and leather cloth and you should be able to find something that is reasonably close to the original.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: The Idle Rich on November 19, 2015, 11:34:46 PM
An E flat Koch single row with a different marking. I like the goats!

(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/rchrss/DSCN7055_zpsyxgkzjzn.jpg)

(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/rchrss/DSCN7056_zpse5jstnng.jpg)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on November 20, 2015, 12:22:20 AM
Steven, Having had a more magnified look at your picture, do you think the bellows tape might be the same but less worn than the 'mull+' material around the ends ?

It looks to be some sort of paper base with mull over and then some gloss & coloured finish, the mull giving a texture like a sort of (cheap) crackle finish - what seems strange is that the loose filaments straggling over the hot pressing appear to be continuation of threads laid in the open - close direction rather than frayings of the up - down, if this is the case does it imply the mulled whatever was folded double with the fold at the key ends ?? perhaps an unworn bit under the corner protectors might yield an answer.

Just when you need a Tony Robinson with bellows cam, Time Team pack up  :(

 :( The E flat single reedplate markings must mean square deal reeds - a mano ? well there was a lot of outwork back then, a wifo and a kiddo were probably also available  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 20, 2015, 01:31:48 AM
An E flat Koch single row with a different marking. I like the goats!

Hohner also sometimes used those reeds with the square stamp in the 1920s, until they either started to make their own, or started to get them made for them with their own markings, like Koch.

I have a very similar-looking Koch single-row Vienna accordion myself that has the full-height image of the chamois, with "Mira" emblazoned across it, gold-branded into the front of the treble casework. But it has steel reeds on aluminium plates with the chamois-head stamp, and they are "laid-flat" in true Viennese style instead of on a removable upright block.

Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 20, 2015, 01:37:52 AM
Steven, Having had a more magnified look at your picture, do you think the bellows tape might be the same but less worn than the 'mull+' material around the ends ?

Yes, I've been suggesting all-along that the material on the bellows frames is the same as the (very thick) bellows tape. It reminds me very strongly of the covering on many older books, which is why I was asking about buckram...
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on November 20, 2015, 02:13:02 AM
We've a few Victorian to pre war German books which grandfather brought back after WW1 about the house but nothing of that nature covering them. The nearest I can recall seeing that sort of finish on is old, cheap, pasteboard prewar suitcases.
Doubt they would  have made it in house, must have been a commercial product, as there was no shortage of paper / board makers in that neck of the woods. Does the thickness make the bellows heavy resistant to use - or has the glue given up the ghost anyway ?
The bookcloth / buckram type materials about seem to be based on a finer, tighter weave material than this and with the range of colours available would make a splendid job, but perhaps not if you were aiming to replicate the look / feel of what this might have originally left the factory like.

Anyhow, a nice problem to have and conserve / restore / renew apart, a nice article of free reed history to have in your squeezearium  :D
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 20, 2015, 03:43:35 AM
Anyhow, a nice problem to have and conserve / restore / renew apart, a nice article of free reed history to have in your squeezearium  :D

I was thinking in terms of making a character-full, not-too-heavy, 3-row to play out of it, converting the tuning from 3rd button start G/C/F to 4th button A/D/G. There have been times when I've wished I had one... 

But it'll have to wait until after I get my mint-condition 1939(?) 4-voice grey Casali converted from C/C# to C#/D!
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 20, 2015, 09:20:42 AM
Steven, Having had a more magnified look at your picture, do you think the bellows tape might be the same but less worn than the 'mull+' material around the ends ?

Yes, I've been suggesting all-along that the material on the bellows frames is the same as the (very thick) bellows tape. It reminds me very strongly of the covering on many older books, which is why I was asking about buckram...

The frames and bellows folds on mine were (bits still are - it's pig of a job getting the stuff off and I've had no time to work on the box for a couple of months) covered in the same material; certainly not thick, though. It's a grained/textured paper of some description, and noticeably thinner than modern bellows tape. Mine has the metal action, closed keyboard and casein buttons, and as far as I recall, not having looked at it for a while, Hohner reeds. I do have a number of Koch reeds with the chamois stamp, however, which bizarrely were harvested from a VERY poorly Hohner HA112.......

Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on November 21, 2015, 01:36:18 AM
For such a few Hz difference, couldn't you just play your Casali from a suitably moving vehicle and let Mr Doppler take care of the difference as far as your audience is concerned? Then you could make a quicker start on the three row conversion..............
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 21, 2015, 02:06:01 AM
For such a few Hz difference, couldn't you just play your Casali from a suitably moving vehicle and let Mr Doppler take care of the difference as far as your audience is concerned?

Sorry, but I can't drive my Subaru AND play the C/C# at the same time, and I couldn't get it through the door of Michael Hennelly's  bar in Gort either...  :P

Anyway, the C row is out of tune with itself! (With slight rust on the reeds, from the little playing that it seems to have got when new.)  :(
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on November 21, 2015, 03:32:19 AM

Anyway, the C row is out of tune with itself! (With slight rust on the reeds, from the little playing that it seems to have got when new.)  :(


Might have been played in a convertible with the top down in the rain....   :-\
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: triskel on November 21, 2015, 08:05:21 AM
Might have been played in a convertible with the top down in the rain....   :-\

Maybe?  ???

Or just a perfect demonstration of how the "old lads" in England (it came from a Lancashire home), and probably Australia too, used to play a C/C# (or B/C) box - on the C row, though possibly using the other row for accidentals...

In fact similarly to the way many Irish-style players might still use a D/D# or C#/D to play in D, instead of "across the rows" on a B/C.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on November 22, 2015, 01:39:36 AM
You just can't help some folk  ;)
Anyhow Nick is keeping concerningly quiet on his hijacked thread - unless he's busy with the B&D jigsaw and his topper ............
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 22, 2015, 06:39:11 AM
 8)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: rb on November 22, 2015, 10:02:02 AM


 It's a grained/textured paper of some description, and noticeably thinner than modern bellows tape. Mine has the metal action, closed keyboard and casein buttons, and as far as I recall, not having looked at it for a while, Hohner reeds. I do have a number of Koch reeds with the chamois stamp, however, which bizarrely were harvested from a VERY poorly Hohner HA112.......


I'm trying to decide whether to replace the frame paper which is faded and ugly but otherwise intact....or perhaps simply lacquer it. The bellows tape is a sure candidate for replacement...and there's a single valley in the otherwise perfect light green bellows with a torn and stained paper! I still have to come up with a creative solution for that.

I was surprised to find that the reed blocks in my Koch are a combination of Hohner H and T types with a single odd mystery reed. Throws my earlier notion that it was pre-Hohner out of the window, I think.

rb


Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 22, 2015, 01:44:35 PM


 It's a grained/textured paper of some description, and noticeably thinner than modern bellows tape. Mine has the metal action, closed keyboard and casein buttons, and as far as I recall, not having looked at it for a while, Hohner reeds. I do have a number of Koch reeds with the chamois stamp, however, which bizarrely were harvested from a VERY poorly Hohner HA112.......


I'm trying to decide whether to replace the frame paper which is faded and ugly but otherwise intact....or perhaps simply lacquer it. The bellows tape is a sure candidate for replacement...and there's a single valley in the otherwise perfect light green bellows with a torn and stained paper! I still have to come up with a creative solution for that.

I was surprised to find that the reed blocks in my Koch are a combination of Hohner H and T types with a single odd mystery reed. Throws my earlier notion that it was pre-Hohner out of the window, I think.

rb

If you have the same paper bellows tape as mine has, be VERY careful removing it. Even with extremely gentle moistening with warm water on a soft watercolour brush and delicate lifting with a sharp scalpel blade it's very difficult to avoid bringing some of the bellows paper with it. It's also a very time-consuming job. You could, of course, apply new tape over the old, but IMHO that never looks quite as good as complete replacement.

Graham

Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on November 22, 2015, 04:24:13 PM
Absolutely right. If you over tape  the bellows  you'll  have to move  the straps.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: rb on November 25, 2015, 09:27:05 AM
Absolutely right. If you over tape  the bellows  you'll  have to move  the straps.

I was faced with replacing all the straps anyway. None were original and none matched. Possibly making my own from veg tan lined with felt....

I've already committed to stripping the old tape on one side at least...

It...it's...it's a project!   ::)

rb
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: 911377brian on November 25, 2015, 11:36:00 AM
Thought I'd try painting my bellows so used one of my Microbotted 'Chansons'as a guinea pig. I'd glued two sets of bellows together but didn't get the pattern to match very well. Anyway, a couple of coats of blackboard paint seems to have done the trick...looks quite concertina ish and has covered my cockup....
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on November 26, 2015, 12:06:37 AM
Oh the temptation.........
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: 911377brian on November 26, 2015, 10:34:53 AM
Ah! Point taken Richard...must take less rum when posting.... :|bl
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on December 09, 2015, 12:38:49 PM
I've just received by post a sheet of "Skivertex", a heavyish paper with a leather-type embossed texture in a lovely deep Burgundy, which seems ideal for refurbishing the Koch bellows. I hope to be in a position to start re-papering and binding the bellows in a few days,and will report back on how I get on with it. For the record, I got mine from Fifi's Craft Supplies (yes, really - it's an eBay shop) and paid £9 for a sheet about 18in x 42in.

Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 11, 2015, 04:26:58 PM
Brill! That's the stuff. ;D though seems a bit pricey. Mind you I only knew trade prices.

Edited because of an intake of red wine
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on December 13, 2015, 07:55:22 AM
"I bought Malcolm's Koch... It's a pressed wood in GC"---Nick Collis Bird

"Well, it's a 1930s pressed wood G/C box with wide bellows frames. The case says Koch, it has a metal action and Hohner air button, so presumably shortly after Koch got taken over.
So not terribly common, but not vanishingly rare....
Presently a battle scarred veteran with a lot of character ;D and a bass to make an ocean liner jealous.
"--- Malcolm Bebb

I looked at the bass reeds on my Koch G/C and the lowest bass reed has large weight soldered onto the tip rather than a lump o lead

"But yours has the all-metal action, presumably with casein plastic buttons and a closed keyboard, and probably Hohner reeds Malcolm?"---Triskel

My Koch G/C with metal action/treble grille and casein plastic buttons has Hohner H reeds, alas, I was hoping for goat imprints. I recently picked up this Koch branded press wood G/C for £27. It has a crack in the fingerboard, and a piece missing between two buttons. I found the piece under the treble, so the repair will be relative easy. I removed the sticking plaster(adhesive tape) at the bellows joins and have been gently picking at the residue with a plastic pallet knife. Here are a few pictures. Does this one look like yours Nick?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on December 13, 2015, 09:45:38 AM
Does this one look like yours Nick?

Now, if I were to say at this point "Yes that does look like Nick's Koch" I could introduce some opportunities for misunderstanding  :o

So I will leave Nick to comment on the outside and just say yes, it has H reeds and the basses do have substantial tip weights.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 13, 2015, 12:09:03 PM
Yes psuggmog, it's exactly the same but minus the grill. It's not  a bad box at all but does need some work. Which I'll get sorted.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Graham Spencer on December 13, 2015, 12:34:32 PM
I guess mine may be a little later then, as the pattern on the woodwork is different, and perhaps more Hohner-ish. Same damage to the fingerboard - though the repair s a pretty straightforward job.

Graham
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on December 13, 2015, 12:58:07 PM
Yes psuggmog, it's exactly the same but minus the grill. It's not  a bad box at all but does need some work. Which I'll get sorted.
Might be able to find a grille if you want. Rusty but not bad.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 15, 2015, 02:05:08 PM
Sounds good to me Malcolm.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Broadland Boy on December 15, 2015, 10:59:46 PM
Malcolm, should you end up not needing the 'new' pressedwood ends, pls let me know, I was the unfortunate later-bidder  :(
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: pikey on December 16, 2015, 08:01:34 AM
Happy Christmas Spartacus, I hope you handle your Koch carefully  ;)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on December 16, 2015, 08:07:20 AM
 ;D ;D :P
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: pikey on December 16, 2015, 08:23:07 AM
Wotcher Koch !!
 8)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Andrius on October 17, 2016, 11:29:56 AM
Hello,
may be somebody owns Koch simile to this No. 8068 in catalogue but larger?
I have Koch like this but 12,5 inches instead 11" in catalogue.
Unfortunately it is without original grill.
I have idea to make copy of the grill using laser cutting, so i am looking for HQ photos of the grill.

Well, it's a 1930s pressed wood G/C box with wide bellows frames. The case says Koch, it has a metal action and Hohner air button, so presumably shortly after Koch got taken over.

Ah, so a very different beast to the poker work Koch models illustrated in Hohner's Catalogue No. 700 (c.1929-30) which shows them still with poker work grilles, open stepped keyboards and wooden actions;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/scan0016.jpg)

or my 1920's 3-row one that was found in a French barn;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/004_1.jpg)

that I want to restore and inspired my question about buckram, seeing that the bellows frames and edges could seriously do with recovering;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/015_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Theo on October 17, 2016, 11:45:37 AM
The picture in the catalog page seem to be two rows.  Malcolm's is three rows.  Does that explain the size difference?
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 17, 2016, 12:00:31 PM
The one that I had was two row. I can't remember if it had a grille, don't think it did, but the standard 2915 grille pre-war grille fitted perfectly (so I expect a modern one would, too).
I did start to look at making a pattern for laser cutting, but I don't have photographic equipment or skills.
I tried getting a photocopy into a graphics program, but it was a major job cleaning it up and the original I had was slightly dished and caused some distortion, so I eventually lost interest.
It would be possible to do something very similar in a vector drawing program, but again time consuming. I used the photocopy as a background in Visio, enough for a proof of concept, but didn't take it further.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Theo on October 17, 2016, 12:13:19 PM
Surely it would be easier to cut a new grill with a fretsaw?  The pattern that I've seen on these is fairly simple and a fret cut grill would look more authentic.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: malcolmbebb on October 17, 2016, 05:34:14 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear, it was the metal one we were trying to copy. At the time I was in a conversation with NickF about laser cutting and fancied getting the same appearance in a wooden replacement grille.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Theo on October 17, 2016, 05:40:56 PM
The metal grills I've seen on those have been identical to the older style Hohner grill.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Andrius on October 18, 2016, 03:26:57 PM
This Koch is exactly the same design like in catalog, two rows, 12 basses, but larger. May be because three voices (nothing about voices in catalog).
Original grill is made using a hot-press, as the body itself. It is missing so now this Koch is with wooden grill from Russian  button accordion. It seems like cuted with a fretsaw and not similar to original, that must be like this in attachment 1:
If to find 11 inch wooden grill from model with roses, may be i can scale photo to required size. Also i hope i can convert photo into corel graphic.
Another Kochs are simile like No. 8366 in catalog, it's 11 inches both, 12 basses and 8 basses, 2 voices models (attachment 2)

Koch with roses, metal grill and Hohner's keyboard pad (and grills there: http://www.ebay.de/itm/182299136933 ) it seems are made by Hohner when original Koch parts finished. I am not very interesting in them.
Title: Re: Malcolm Bebb's Koch
Post by: Andrius on July 04, 2017, 12:46:57 AM
Some links about the Koch history - post under this name is locked (?):
this post (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,17795.0.html) and Pokerwork History (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=823.0)
Outside Melnet - there (http://www.slidemeister.com/forums/index.php?topic=13087.0) and there (http://gumshoearcana.blogspot.lt/2011/07/kochs-presswood-pokerworks.html), also Koch saxophone (http://woodwindforum.com/helen/info/version5/vintage-saxes/sax-shaped-things/blow-accordions/ands-koch-saxaphone) and Koch fiddle (http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/3809)
In German language: wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Koch_Harmonika-Fabrik) and book about Koch family (https://buch-findr.de/themen/andreas-koch-ag/)

Irony - address of company Hohner:

HOHNER Musikinstrumente GmbH
Andreas-Koch-Straße 9
78647 Trossingen Germany
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