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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Andrius on September 13, 2016, 02:15:11 PM

Title: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on September 13, 2016, 02:15:11 PM
Hello,
may be somebody can identify two "new" boxes?
Nothing is written outside and inside too on both of them.
I am very interesting in photos or scans from catalog for brown one - some details are missing and needs to be restored.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on September 13, 2016, 02:16:25 PM
second ("brown")
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: boxer on September 15, 2016, 06:19:44 PM
I've seen a picture of one of the Flannagan Brothers (of NYC) playing a box with a keyboard that looked like the first of your boxes.  As I recall the rest of the woodwork was white.  I'd guess the picture was taken in the 1920s.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on September 15, 2016, 08:41:00 PM
Thank you.
First arrived from Germany. Reeds are zinc with O letter; G/C, two voices.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: triskel on September 15, 2016, 09:01:38 PM
second ("brown")

It's the same model as this one (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9610.0.html) that Theo was asking about four years ago (but I've only just seen, sorry Theo!), and the metal pallets in both strongly suggest they were made by (Hohner's rivals) Koch in Trossingen in the 1920s.

It's their "No 3182 S  25 Keys, 8 Basses, Steel Reeds, Genuine Russian Tuning ... Price each $35.00" in a U.S. Ands. Koch catalog that I have (with an additional updated, reduced, Price List for July 1 1920 inside it).

Hohner continued to market similar ones as "Polish or Russian Model Accordions" after they took over Koch.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: triskel on September 15, 2016, 09:12:25 PM
The first ("black") one has a grille that's strongly reminiscent of some boxes made in Klingenthal in the 1930s.

I made a long reply about similar instruments with faux piano keyboards in this old thread from 2009: "Vintage Ludwig Piano Accordion" but not off-topic (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2047.0.html)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on September 15, 2016, 10:23:30 PM
second ("brown")

It's the same model as this one (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9610.0.html) that Theo was asking about four years ago (but I've only just seen, sorry Theo!), and the metal pallets in both strongly suggest they were made by (Hohner's rivals) Koch in Trossingen in the 1920s.

It's their "No 3182 S  25 Keys, 8 Basses, Steel Reeds, Genuine Russian Tuning ... Price each $35.00" in a U.S. Ands. Koch catalog that I have (with an additional updated, reduced, Price List for July 1 1920 inside it).

Hohner continued to market similar ones as "Polish or Russian Model Accordions" after they took over Koch.

Hello,
I was searching forum but not successfully.
It's amazing. My very best accordions are Koch. Last one arrived today. May be you can scan or take picture of this page in Koch catalog? Or may be it's possible online?
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: triskel on September 16, 2016, 01:19:17 AM
May be you can scan or take picture of this page in Koch catalog?

I'll see what I can do when I'm not as tired, but my scanner is getting old and creaky, as is my computer, and also myself, whilst my internet connection is pretty awful too...  :(

But there is an illustration of a similar style "Polish or Russian model" in a c.1930 Hohner catalogue;

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/HohnerPolishorRussianModel.jpg)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on January 04, 2017, 10:22:29 PM
May be the black one is "Royal Standard"?
recently sold on eBay 3 row 3 voices "Royal Standard" Fis/B/E with the grill identical to my.
eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/162344709373)
No any sign of manufacturer on photos too, "Royal Standard" only in description.
BTW - my G/C sounds great  (:)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: hickory-wind on January 05, 2017, 02:28:26 PM
The second appears identical to a Hohner I have closely matching Triskel's 1930 catalog scan for the Polish/Russian model. This one still has the removeable grill and 8 bass/chord spoons. Mine is in CF. I am willing to sell as-is or restored if anyone is interested.

  Scott

BellingersButtonBoxes.com (http://BellingersButtonBoxes.com)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on January 06, 2017, 12:46:33 PM
PM sent
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 05, 2018, 08:41:20 AM
can somebody identify new toy?
seller's photos from ad there (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yOOj1sq6Fs9qTWiy-qEF16L8qRYDn1-m)
Meinel & Herold?
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 06, 2018, 07:22:56 AM
any ideas?
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 06, 2018, 07:44:15 AM
I should think that it cold be anyone's guess. Meinel and Herold? Why not!

If, like me, you follow the numerous fascinating threads where Stephen Chambers and Paul Groff debate the various styles and cross-over features of a thousand and one boxes, it must surely become apparent that many named boxes, never mind unnamed boxes seem to be real mongrels. i.e. This part is identical to such and such a manufacturer, but this other part is reminiscent of such and such's earlier version, etc etc ad infinitum!

It seems to me that there were just too many makers manufacturing for too many badges, the same as is currently happening with the Chinese factories.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: KLR on March 06, 2018, 11:26:13 PM
Finto-Piano - The Accordionists Forum (https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1170)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: triskel on March 07, 2018, 03:03:17 AM
Meinel & Herold?

There's nothing with the same grille in my (1936?) Meinel & Herold catalogue, but it's really quite a "generic" Klingenthal type of instrument... :-\
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 07, 2018, 09:07:54 PM
Arrived.
Reeds with six corner stars. Stamps on reedblocks "Paul Krüpiganss" and two words I can't reed. Manufacturer or repairer?
May be first.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 07, 2018, 09:28:24 PM
Andrius, I'm intrigued by the half-moon shaped filed (?) bit on the valve side of the reed slot! What's its purpose, anyone?
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 07, 2018, 09:46:12 PM
If I understand correct - small piece of wood? Four like this limits place for reed blocks from sides.
But it isn't half-moon form, more near to irregular quadrangle
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: boxcall on March 07, 2018, 10:23:11 PM
Andrius, I'm intrigued by the half-moon shaped filed (?) bit on the valve side of the reed slot! What's its purpose, anyone?
Good question, they don't look equal some look like more material is gone and it makes me wonder if maybe something was rubbing it during tuning or filing of the inner reed.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 07, 2018, 10:37:33 PM
Oh, now I understand.
I don't know why it is so.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: tirpous on March 08, 2018, 01:09:17 AM
Quote
Andrius, I'm intrigued by the half-moon shaped filed (?) bit on the valve side of the reed slot! What's its purpose, anyone?

Good question, they don't look equal some look like more material is gone and it makes me wonder if maybe something was rubbing it during tuning or filing of the inner reed.

I rather think it's part of the manufacturing process.  I have a few old boxes where all the reed plates are like that.
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: tirpous on March 08, 2018, 01:34:01 AM
Couple of pictures...  Note there is a half-moon at both ends of the slot on the bass reedplate.  The other plates also have a half-moon at the rivet end of the slot (hidden by valves).
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: triskel on March 10, 2018, 05:10:11 AM
May be you can scan or take picture of this page in Koch catalog?

I'll see what I can do when I'm not as tired, but my scanner is getting old and creaky, as is my computer, and also myself, whilst my internet connection is pretty awful too...  :(

I noticed the other day that I'd never got around to doing this for you Andrius, but tonight I managed to get the computer, scanner and myself in synch (it takes re-booting all three! ;))

So here's the Polish model (top) from the Koch catalogue:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/scan0003_2.jpg)

And also two Russian models:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/scan0004_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Andrius on March 10, 2018, 07:03:17 AM
Thank you very much.
I wish good health for all three (You, PC and scanner) to scan complete catalog someday.
No special needs but very interesting...
Both accordions, first in topic and second I bought from Scott are No. 3182 S
I was asking for scan because first accordion was without grill and few parts missing from bass site.
Then I bought second from Scott, complete and in perfect condition for it's age.
Only difference - sign "M. Hohner" attached. Interesting - it's old, made by Koch, only with new name after overtake, or Hohner made more...
And - no "genuine Russian tuning". Russian tuning it's like all reed plates are reversed. Both accordions are in standard tuning.

Also it was nice to find model 17¾ - I own one in A/D and second in C/F, but this is 12 bass model.

Title: Re: Can you identify the boxes?
Post by: Doug Eisemann on March 14, 2018, 01:52:25 AM
My apologies for barging into a thread like this,  as a person of little experience and not much to say for the past few months, but I have been quite interested in people's takes on these Koch and Hohner "Polish or Russian Style" boxes. 
I say this because I took a slight departure from my interest in early American diatonic accordions and purchased 2 Polish made boxes,  both in C/F,  one from Scott Bellinger and another on Ebay.

In my research into their peculiarities,  I was attempting to figure out how the German made equivalents from Koch or Hohner fit in.
It seems that Koch made a clear differentiation between their so called "Polish" models,  and their "Russian" models.  It would appear however, that Hohner simplified things by simply calling the 3182 "Polish or Russian" 

What I am still not sure of is if the "Genuine Russian Tuning"  as advertised by Koch was simply a reversal of the scale push vs. draw (this is where my lack of music terminology knowlege gets me in trouble.) as in many Russian diatonic boxes,  or an actual difference in tuning.    Listening recordings of old Polish and Russian accordions does make me think there were some specific tuning peculiarities,  but whether or not that is what Koch and/or Hohner meant,  I am not sure.

One other point of interest,  both of my Polish boxes are 2 voice with the treble reeds on long brass plates,  something I have noticed seems most common on older Polish or Russian instruments (as well as Bandoneons and Chemnitzers)   I believe it was mentioned somewhere,  but I would imagine Koch and Hohner used more typical individual reed plates. 

Again,  my apologies for the intrusion,  but my interest in this somewhat less discussed style of melodeon has been greatly piqued.

Thank you and best regards,
Doug Eisemann