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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: triskel on October 10, 2016, 02:04:31 AM

Title: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 10, 2016, 02:04:31 AM
Not wanting to drag the Tasmania. An odd question (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=19291.20) thread even further off topic, I've opened this new one about a subject arising from it:

Hitherto, the Old "English Chromatic" C/C# system (going back to the 1880s) was prevalent amongst English 2-row melodeon players, played in C (with a row of semitones, much as an Irish D/D# player might play his instrument in D), and indeed, C might be considered as "concert pitch" amongst the old-style players recorded in East Anglia (like it still is amongst the Cajuns in Louisiana). In fact I'm reminded of a number of instruments I bought after the death of Suffolk melodeon player Cyril Stannard - who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes that had all quite evidently been played exclusively on the C row...

I've been told that D/G (in English music) originated with a couple of dance players on Dartmoor in the 1940s, who got their Club Model C/F accordions (which were themselves a new introduction in the 1930s) converted to play in D/G, to suit the keys of the fiddle players. Peter Kennedy then took up D/G and seems to have been behind the more general introduction of the system.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom, a Swedish firm who had set up an accordion factory in Sunderland after WWII and brought Nils Nielsen with them as a young factory-trained tuner. Those boxes were made (subject to a Licence from the Board of Trade, in those immediate post-war years of restrictions, rationing and 100% Sales Tax on musical instruments!) especially for the English Folk Dance Society in 1949, and they could only be bought at that time by members of the Society who had pre-ordered them.

The very first Hohner D/Gs for the English market (and the first D/Gs to be commercially available in Britain) only appeared in 1955, when Bell's of Surbiton ordered a small batch of Pokerworks, and then another of Ericas (which were then a new model) - one of the Pokerworks was bought by Reg Hall, and the last of the Ericas by Brian Hayden - but the second batch sold much more slowly than the first, and Brian ("Inventor" of this parish) has reported that he was told they might not be getting any more made.

The system was so new, and little known, that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song magazine, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it!

I commented in the Tasmania. An odd question (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=19291.20) thread that;

... people might be surprised to learn that even my latest Bell's catalogue, from May 1968, only lists the Erica in C/C# - and no Pokerworks, or D/Gs, at all!

But tonight I came across an even later, January 1971, Bell's catalogue that I bought recently.

It still shows the Erica as being in C/C# as standard, but adds (almost as an afterthought, below the main body of the description) "Also available in D and G tuning."

There are still no Pokerworks in that catalogue though, and there are altogether 4 different models in C/C#, four in B/C and 4 in B/C/C# listed, as well as 2 models in C#/D and 2 in D/D#, but only the Erica in D/G!  :o

Early days for D/G, even then!

Edited title
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: ACE on October 10, 2016, 07:52:04 AM
When I got my first soprani in D/G from accordions of London I got it cheap as the salesman said he would not be able to sell it to any of his regulars, this was  years before the internet, so I  suspect advertising the thing country wide was not an option and Kilburn then being termed as the Irish Quarter, his regulars would not be seen dead with those tunings. My very first D/G was a pokerwork purchased in the early seventies from the West Midlands Folk federation who had managed to obtain a batch of pokerworks and a couple of Coronas in A/D/G.  For us players out in the back woods it was still 20 years plus after the 1949 intro that we came across the weird beasts. Playing in C was the norm up to then or a very squeaky G on a cheap old lachenal anglo.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 12:07:32 AM
...But tonight I came across an even later, January 1971, Bell's catalogue that I bought recently.

It still shows the Erica as being in C/C# as standard, but adds (almost as an afterthought, below the main body of the description) "Also available in D and G tuning."

There are still no Pokerworks in that catalogue though, and there are altogether 4 different models in C/C#, four in B/C and 4 in B/C/C# listed, as well as 2 models in C#/D and 2 in D/D#, but only the Erica in D/G!  :o

Early days for D/G, even then!
It seems obvious that the supplier was catering mainly to Scottish and Irish box players?
Which begs the question...how many English folk musicians were actually playing the button box at the time? Very few maybe?

Which models were available in C#/D and D/D#?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 12:22:40 AM
When I got my first soprani in D/G from accordions of London I got it cheap as the salesman said he would not be able to sell it to any of his regulars, this was  years before the internet, so I  suspect advertising the thing country wide was not an option and Kilburn then being termed as the Irish Quarter, his regulars would not be seen dead with those tunings...

If an Irish player wanted to play like Paddy O' Brien or Joe Burke or Finbarr Dwyer (and they all did!),
then it had to be B/C or some other semi-tone.
You just can't get the ornamentation that those players get, on a D/G.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 11, 2016, 12:46:31 AM
Which begs the question...how many English folk musicians were actually playing the button box at the time? Very few maybe?

In the 1970s, probably quite a lot, but I suspect they tended not to be documented very much. Certainly in East Anglia (where the eponymous Traditional Music Trust has done so much research) there were Oscar Woods, Dolly Curtis, Percy Brown, George Craske, and others. They mainly played two row melodeons in C/C# or B/C using the C rows only, although latterly, Percy Brown played a D/G Erica. The one-row four-stop melodeon in C was also popular and came to be Oscar Woods' iconic box (http://www.eatmt.org.uk/oscar_woods.htm).

I've no reason to doubt that there were similar players in other parts of England at the time, the Dartmoor area of Devon especially coming to mind.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 02:33:44 AM
I've been told that D/G (in English music) originated with a couple of dance players on Dartmoor in the 1940s, who got their Club Model C/F accordions (which were themselves a new introduction in the 1930s) converted to play in D/G,...
I'm wondering how these conversions were made. Were there many fettlers around in those days?
Did the boxes go back to the supplier or the factory? Were reeds retuned or replaced I wonder?

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom...
Do you mean Club Models with a gleichton?
Why not a straight up D/G?...unless the players were only interested in playing the D row.


Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 08:13:28 AM
..Oscar Woods, Dolly Curtis, Percy Brown, George Craske, and others. They mainly played two row melodeons in C/C# or B/C using the C rows only, although latterly, Percy Brown played a D/G Erica. The one-row four-stop melodeon in C was also popular and came to be Oscar Woods' iconic box (http://www.eatmt.org.uk/oscar_woods.htm).

I couldn't find any video archive on Oscar Woods, does anyone know of anything online?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 08:16:34 AM
I have it now (https://vimeo.com/11033996)!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 11:12:29 AM
...But tonight I came across an even later, January 1971, Bell's catalogue that I bought recently.
... there are altogether 4 different models in C/C#, four in B/C and 4 in B/C/C# listed, as well as 2 models in C#/D and 2 in D/D#, but only the Erica in D/G!  :o
It seems obvious that the supplier was catering mainly to Scottish and Irish box players?
Which begs the question...how many English folk musicians were actually playing the button box at the time? Very few maybe?

Which models were available in C#/D and D/D#?

Bell's were the biggest accordion dealers in England in the 1950s/'60s/'70s, mainly selling piano accordions (including "own brand" ones made for them by Hohner), many of them by mail order, and also offered their own hire purchase facility. They certainly sold to both English players and Irish ones living in England, but Scotland had big accordion dealers of its own.

There were plenty of English button box players, most of them playing C/C# or B/C, and some with Paolo Sopranis (I've a 5-coupler, "horseshoe grille", C/C# that came from an English home and has a Bell's celluloid label on it), but the piano accordion would have been hugely more popular in those days.

The Hohner Primatona and Amatona IV models were available in B/C, C/C#, C#/D or D/D#.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 11:36:15 AM
If an Irish player wanted to play like Paddy O' Brien or Joe Burke or Finbarr Dwyer (and they all did!),
then it had to be B/C or some other semi-tone.

Originally, in 1955, when his three 78 rpm discs came out, it was all about playing like Paddy O'Brien (from Nenagh) on B/C, and nobody else. Those other "young lads" hadn't even been heard of then...

Though "the young bucks" of the box in those days were listening to Jimmy Shand too!
 
Quote
You just can't get the ornamentation that those players get, on a D/G.

No "semitonally-inflected downward mordants" I trust, nor "pointless and random ornaments"...   ::) (Seán Ó Riada)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: 911377brian on October 11, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
The sheer economy of his playing is an inspiration....
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 11, 2016, 01:11:42 PM
I've been going to the Sidmouth Festival since I happened to drive through the town on a day trip to the beach and wondered what was going on, probably 1972-3.
My interest in the festival and folk things grew and I was aware that melodeons could be bought from the local EFDSS office in Exeter, along with song books which were my initial interest and reason for visiting the office. Not sure if other stalls at the festival had them and in fact can't even remember if there *were* many music stalls then!
Don't remember the date when the first Hobgoblin stall appeared but then melodeons were 'out in the open' along with other folk instruments. It looked like an Aladdin's Cave. Quite exciting I remember!
Q

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 02:09:23 PM
I've been told that D/G (in English music) originated with a couple of dance players on Dartmoor in the 1940s, who got their Club Model C/F accordions (which were themselves a new introduction in the 1930s) converted to play in D/G,...
I'm wondering how these conversions were made. Were there many fettlers around in those days?
Did the boxes go back to the supplier or the factory? Were reeds retuned or replaced I wonder?

I'm sorry to say that, basically, "nobody knows" the answers to any of your questions.  :(

Which means we can only speculate.

So, seeing that no "ready made" sets of D/G reeds would have been available then, whoever did it (and there were precious few tuners around in those days) must have re-tuned the C/F ones up a full tone, much as Nils Nielsen would have done when he converted a 1930's Club 235 to D/G for me in the late '70s.

Certainly the renowned Dartmoor player Bob Cann, born in 1919 and playing for dances by the 1940s, was later known for playing a post-war Hohner Club III M that must have been converted, to be in D/G.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom...
Do you mean Club Models with a gleichton?
Why not a straight up D/G?...unless the players were only interested in playing the D row.

Unless somebody finds one, and there were only ever a handful of them made, we only know that those Hagstrom boxes were described as "Club Melodeons" by Peter Kennedy.

But I'd suspect they were probably made without the dreaded gleichton...  ???

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 03:30:58 PM
No "semitonally-inflected downward mordants" I trust, nor "pointless and random ornaments"...   ::) (Seán Ó Riada)

I wonder what Sonny Brogan and Éamon de Buitléar made of that...

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 11, 2016, 03:37:57 PM
I wonder if Ivor Hyde would have any input into this?
Though I've never met him, friends have used him since the 70's. He's in Somerset ( Yeovil? ) and now in his 80's and was still tuning ass far as I know, though his daughter has helped him apparently..
Apparently Hohner trained. He would have been tuning and witnessed this being at the 'reed end' of it all during this time period.
He might be worth contacting, if anyone's local to him, and get his version of events.
Just a thought........
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 05:04:59 PM
No "semitonally-inflected downward mordants" I trust, nor "pointless and random ornaments"...   ::) (Seán Ó Riada)

I wonder what Sonny Brogan and Éamon de Buitléar made of that...

You'd wonder...  ???

Though Ó Riada had nothing but praise for Sonny Brogan's tasteful box playing, and I don't remember Éamon de Buitléar being too fancy either.

Actually, I was trying to get Éamon to talk to me about Ó Riada's attitude to the accordion ("designed by foreigners for the use of peasants with neither the time, inclination nor application for a worthier instrument"), but he died before we got around to it - a man of many talents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Buitl%C3%A9ar), not least (but you wouldn't know if you never got a letter from him) being calligraphy, so that even my address on the envelope was a work of art...
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 05:10:43 PM
I wonder if Ivor Hyde would have any input into this?

I was wondering myself, and he might have had a hand in things in the '50s/'60s, but he'd be too young to have tuned those boxes in the '40s - though he might have seen some of those original ones later.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 05:20:00 PM
... although latterly, Percy Brown played a D/G Erica. ...

In fact Cyril Stannard also had a D/G Pokerwork, only it seemed to be in "as new" condition - like he'd never played it...
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Phil B on October 11, 2016, 05:29:30 PM
"Certainly the renowned Dartmoor player Bob Cann, born in 1919 and playing for dances by the 1940s, was later known for playing a post-war Hohner Club III M that must have been converted, to be in D/G." quote from Triskel's post
I am not sure about to boxes he played in the 1940,s but to the best of my memory the one I danced to late 60,s early 70,s was converted to DG by Ivor Hyde. I believe It also did have the dreaded glechion! because when Bob borrowed my 3 voice ADG Corona to try on one occasion he could not get on with because he missed having the glechion.
But Ivor would be the person to confirm this
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Rob2Hook on October 11, 2016, 05:48:38 PM
Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I'd love to see him again and tell him how much I've enjoyed the boxes he's fixed for me.

Rob.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on October 11, 2016, 06:01:00 PM
Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I'd love to see him again and tell him how much I've enjoyed the boxes he's fixed for me.

Rob.

Mark Bazeley (Bob's grandson for those who might not know) still plays Bob's box...I'll ask him what he knows...unless someone else does first...
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 07:03:14 PM
Certainly the renowned Dartmoor player Bob Cann, born in 1919 and playing for dances by the 1940s, was later known for playing a post-war Hohner Club III M that must have been converted, to be in D/G.

I am not sure about to boxes he played in the 1940,s but to the best of my memory the one I danced to late 60,s early 70,s was converted to DG by Ivor Hyde. I believe It also did have the dreaded glechion! because when Bob borrowed my 3 voice ADG Corona to try on one occasion he could not get on with because he missed having the glechion.
But Ivor would be the person to confirm this

Ah, thanks for that!

There's at least one old photo of a young Bob Cann playing a 2-row Hohner, on the Moor Music (http://www.moormusic.co.uk/history.html) page, but he may well have later got used to having a gleichton on his red Hohner Club IIIM (which must be the box you danced to).

Maybe those Hagstroms did have "the dreaded gleichton" after all then.

I suppose this begs the question of did Peter Kennedy's boxes have a gleichton - does anybody know?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 07:11:23 PM
Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 07:24:44 PM
..Maybe those Hagstroms did have "the dreaded gleichton" after all then.

I suppose this begs the question of did Peter Kennedy's boxes have a gleichton - does anybody know?

..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 07:52:36 PM
..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!

It was probably simply that

a) that's how Hohner made them, and people played instruments as they were in those days - whilst both the Club system and the gleichton have lots of fans and adherents, though chiefly in Central Europe. In fact if you were Swiss, or Slovenian, or somesuch, you'd think your 4th-tuned box with gleichton(es) perfectly normal, and B/C system totally bizarre! (For that matter, there were whole Accordion Club bands of Club Models in Ireland in the 1930s, and I've even seen a photo of them being used at that time in an ITM setting...  :o)

and

b) there wasn't a whole caste of fettlers to customise boxes for you if you did want something different anyway.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on October 11, 2016, 08:44:28 PM
From Mark on the Club box he now plays which was Bob's

"It was originally C/F and Ivor Hyde did re-tune it to D/G for gramps. He tuned each reed individually so it has the original Morino reeds in their original places rather than moving reeds around and replacing some. It was a big job! Five voices on the treble and bass."

And on the Gleichton

"Never heard it called that before, or even knew it had an actual name! I used to call it the wine gum as it looks a bit like the small round wine gums you used to be able to get in a tube, rather than the big shapes they are these days! It is the same note on the push and pull as it was originally, except tuned up a tone. I've always played a club box hence why I struggle a bit on a non club box, but not as much as watching the look on someone else's face when they play my box without realising!"

I]ll ask about date 
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on October 11, 2016, 08:57:49 PM
Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(

Not sure of the model, but I know it's black... (:)

More from Mark

"Gramps got the box from Roger Watson who was working for Hohner at the time and had it as a demonstrator. It's a Hohner Overture V and was basically a bigger version of his current box at that time, a red Hohner Club IIIM. I think I was about ten as when Gramps got it he gave me the red one and that's what I started playing after the concertina. So that would have been about 1982 ish, +/- a year or two! "

Spot on Rob... :|glug
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 11, 2016, 10:55:50 PM
..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!

It was probably simply that

a) that's how Hohner made them, and people played instruments as they were in those days - whilst both the Club system and the gleichton have lots of fans and adherents, though chiefly in Central Europe (In fact there were whole Accordion Club bands of Club Models in Ireland in the 1930s... )

and

b) there wasn't a whole caste of fettlers to customise boxes for you if you did want something different anyway.

Yes, but I was referring to this piece of information:
.. Peter Kennedy then took up D/G and seems to have been behind the more general introduction of the system.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom....

Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 11:33:46 PM
Yes, but I was referring to this piece of information:
.. Peter Kennedy then took up D/G and seems to have been behind the more general introduction of the system.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom....

Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.

We don't know that he didn't, like I said, nobody has seen one.

But my point was that Peter may have followed the lead set by the Dartmoor players who started things off with their retuned Hohners, and Mark Bazeley has now told us that at least Bob Cann (if nobody else) retained the original Club fingering with the gleichton.

I wonder how 1956 All-Ireland Champion George Ross (right) and his friend got on with the Club Models they're playing in the photo below?

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/george%20ross.jpg)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 11, 2016, 11:41:47 PM
I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(

Great to have the low-down from the ultimate authority on the subject! (The gospel according to Mark, so to speak...  ;))

But they're Morino reeds he says, and tuning them all up by a full tone is both arduous on the tuner, and pretty severe on the reed tongues - they'd want to have started out with plenty of meat on them!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 12, 2016, 12:49:23 AM
As I recall from conversations with Ivor, there are two black Ouvertures. The first one had Morino reeds tuned up from C/F to D/G (arduous indeed but successful!) and the second one had Italian D/G reeds fitted and was "a bit of a disaster".
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 12, 2016, 07:35:12 AM
Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.
We don't know that he didn't, like I said, nobody has seen one.

Is it at all possible that some of the earliest German-built D/G Ericas or Pokerworks still around today originated from Peter Kennedy's initial ordering? We wouldn't necessarily today know their provenance.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 12, 2016, 09:36:29 AM
Is it at all possible that some of the earliest German-built D/G Ericas or Pokerworks still around today originated from Peter Kennedy's initial ordering? We wouldn't necessarily today know their provenance.

Well, not exactly, because Peter Kennedy's initial ordering was of Hagstrom Club models - licensed only to be sold to EFDS members in 1949. The earliest German-built Hohner D/G Ericas or Pokerworks were a later (1955) commercial venture on the part of Bell's of Surbiton, though (no doubt) at somebody's behest - could it have been Peter Kennedy's?

I know who two of the first Hohner buyers were though, one of them is Brian Hayden (who got the last of the batch (of 10?) Ericas, the other is Reg Hall who made great use of the Pokerwork he got, playing it with the likes of Scan Tester, Walter Bulwer and others.

Maybe one or two of those boxes have survived, but you wouldn't know them if you saw one, unless its history was known...  :(
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Howard Jones on October 12, 2016, 09:40:41 AM
1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton, it just requires a slightly different approach to playing. It is only a problem when you are used to playing a "normal" keyboard, but with a bit of concentration you can soon adjust for it.  For some time I played a club system in C/F as well as a normal D/G, and found it was not a problem provided I played only tunes which I'd worked out specifically to take account if the gleichton (I was using it mainly for song accompaniment). I eventually had it de-clubbed so I could busk on it more easily, but only after considerable thought and with a little regret, as the gleichton does offer some benefits.

2) Since it is usually fiddlers who gripe that sessions are confined to D and G for the sake of the melodeons, I find it ironic that we have adopted the D/G (which is not the optimum tuning, being a bit too high-pitched) in order to play along with them in the first place.

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 12, 2016, 09:44:00 AM

2) Since it is usually fiddlers who gripe that sessions are confined to D and G for the sake of the melodeons, I find it ironic that we have adopted the D/G (which is not the optimum tuning, being a bit too high-pitched) in order to play along with them in the first place.

If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 12, 2016, 10:06:15 AM
1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton

I'm glad somebody said that.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 12, 2016, 10:12:15 AM
If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 12, 2016, 10:23:48 AM
Agreed Anahata! My view (like yours apparently) is that it's a good thing sometimes not to play, so that others, like fiddlers,  can play in keys they enjoy.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 12, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton

I'm glad somebody said that.

Sorry but I couldn't find the "tongue-in-cheek" smiley...  ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on October 12, 2016, 06:31:56 PM
As I recall from conversations with Ivor, there are two black Ouvertures. The first one had Morino reeds tuned up from C/F to D/G (arduous indeed but successful!) and the second one had Italian D/G reeds fitted and was "a bit of a disaster".

Again from Mark

"I think Ivor took over a year to do the conversion though. He did a bit every few days as it was such a big job! "...I think that counts as "arduous" :|glug :|glug....
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 12, 2016, 07:21:57 PM

I wonder how 1956 All-Ireland Champion George Ross (right) and his friend got on with the Club Models they're playing in the photo below?

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/george%20ross.jpg)

I don't know how he got on with a Club, but the man was a demon on B/C/C#!
George Ross (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kdnZj5XJtM).
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 12, 2016, 07:30:54 PM
1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton

I'm glad somebody said that.

I'm glad too. Everyone should try it at least once in their life and I happen to know where
one is available at a very reasonable price right now. See here (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,18985.0.html).
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Matthew B on October 12, 2016, 07:32:23 PM
I don't know how he got on with a Club, but the man was a demon on B/C/C#!George Ross (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kdnZj5XJtM).

The tune George Ross is playing sounds very much like one that I know as "Slow Hornpipe" from Tony Hall's "Mr Universe" CD.  Its interesting to compare what each player does with the tune.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Richard Shaul on October 12, 2016, 08:24:04 PM
If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)


All hypothetical now of course, but wouldn't G/C have been better? Still the nice low pitch, and throw in a couple of C# accidentals and you have D scale as well.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 12, 2016, 08:45:34 PM
I don't know how he got on with a Club, but the man was a demon on B/C/C#!George Ross (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kdnZj5XJtM).

The tune George Ross is playing sounds very much like one that I know as "Slow Hornpipe" from Tony Hall's "Mr Universe" CD.  Its interesting to compare what each player does with the tune.

It is also a version of The Cliffe Hornpipe.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 12, 2016, 10:24:31 PM
If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)


All hypothetical now of course, but wouldn't G/C have been better? Still the nice low pitch, and throw in a couple of C# accidentals and you have D scale as well.

...Or C#/D or B/C, but we are where we are, as the saying goes.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 13, 2016, 12:12:27 AM
I came across this from an old discussion.
That's a good looking box. What decade is it from? What was the key?
It looks similar to a Casali model that I have seen somewhere.


There's never been an "accordion industry" in Britain, unlike (especially) Germany & Italy - indeed the only accordion factory has been the one exported there (after the Second World War) by the Swedish maker Hagstrom. Here's one of theirs that I have:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Hagstrom2-row.jpg)

Hagstrom built the first production G/D boxes, for Peter Kennedy at the EFDSS, in 1949.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 13, 2016, 08:17:05 AM
According to a post on here from 'Inventor' ( Brian Hayden ), where he describes his purchase of the last of the Peter Kennedy Erica's: Peter Kennedy chose DG keys because he'd been on a tune collecting trip  in the north, and the tunes were mostly in those keys. Hence his original order of Hohners in those keys.
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 13, 2016, 09:41:10 AM
If that is the case then perhaps the idea was to fit in with Northumbrian pipers who are the music is written in D and G, though traditionally it is played at a pitch between F and F#.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 13, 2016, 10:32:41 AM
We should be thankful all our melodeons are not tuned to C-and-a-bit/F blunt  ;D
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 13, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
Theo: Yes I think that was the case.

Anahata: I'm truly grateful!

.....and I still *love* the term 'F blunt'!!!!!
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 13, 2016, 05:36:02 PM
According to a post on here from 'Inventor' ( Brian Hayden ), where he describes his purchase of the last of the Peter Kennedy Erica's: Peter Kennedy chose DG keys because he'd been on a tune collecting trip  in the north, and the tunes were mostly in those keys. Hence his original order of Hohners in those keys.

The version of the tale that Howard Mitchell (Mitch the bass) gave a dozen years ago, was that:

Quote
Some years ago I asked Peter Kennedy to relate the story of the introduction of D/G melodeons into England as his name always seems to come up.

He said something like:

In the 1950s most melodeons were based in C with either F or G as a second row and the half row, often in the club format, to give more chromaticity. He was collecting songs and tunes in Northumberland and found strangely that much of the repertoire played by fiddlers in particular was of Irish origin and in G or D and sometimes A. He investigated and found that an anomolous reception of Radio Eirrean (sp) occurred in the NE and local players were picking up Irish tunes for their repertoire from the radio.

Now Irish melodeon players had adopted chromatic instruments based on C with either B or C# as a second row to enable them to play in other keys but this was not generally popular in England and the local melodeon players couldn't join in with this repertoire. So to help local melodeon players Peter arranged for Hohner to produce a batch melodeons in G/D, I believe that they were stocked and distributed by Bells of Surbiton and the EFDSS shop.

And it all followed on from there...


But that seems a bit odd since Peter Kennedy had already got those D/G Club Models made in 1949 and (as I commented in 2004) in the 1950s "most Irish accordion players had yet to solve the problem of playing in what they would term "concert pitch", that is to say, playing in D, G and A. The playing of B/C boxes like that didn't become common until after 1955" following the release of Paddy O'Brien's recordings that year.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: oggiesnr on October 14, 2016, 11:06:52 AM
I no longer have my original copies but from memory the Fiddler's Tunebooks were published for the first time in early the early 1950's and the tunes were, I think, almost exclusively in D and G which would make it sensible to order D/G boxes.  I'm not sure how many othe tunebooks were around at the time but certainly not the plethora there are today.

By the same token D/G is the dominant key (plus minors of course) in the O'Neill's collection so it's interesting that they went towards semitone boxes.  Presumably because that was the best way to get the fiddle ornaments?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 14, 2016, 11:36:20 AM
Fiddler's Tunebooks were published for the first time in early the early 1950's and the tunes were, I think, almost exclusively in D and G
Good point, and likely to be quite influential.

Quote
By the same token D/G is the dominant key (plus minors of course) in the O'Neill's collection so it's interesting that they went towards semitone boxes.  Presumably because that was the best way to get the fiddle ornaments?
These things can simply come down to personalities - The Irish played one row melodeons in "press and draw" style before B/C came along, and I seem to remember that one or two players who used B/C boxes and used the two rows to get other keys (instead of just playing on the C row like the English did)  influenced a whole generation to play in that style.

Similarly, if Peter Kennedy hadn't encouraged the manufacture and import of D/G boxes, it's possible that the English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? B/C or C/# in fully chromatic style, or B/C/C# like Jimmy Shand (another example of one man influencing a whole generation), or maybe English fiddlers would be playing in C now.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Chris Ryall on October 14, 2016, 12:41:10 PM
Similarly, if Peter Kennedy hadn't encouraged the manufacture and import of D/G boxes, it's possible that the English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? B/C or C/# in fully chromatic style, or B/C/C# like Jimmy Shand (another example of one man influencing a whole generation), or maybe English fiddlers would be playing in C now.

Agree. I too subscribe to the 'cock up' theory of history and melodeon variations are a splendid example of how much diversity that can produce. No bad thing though?  :|glug
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 14, 2016, 12:49:49 PM
Similarly, if Peter Kennedy hadn't encouraged the manufacture and import of D/G boxes, it's possible that the English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? .....

C/F I would have hoped!  ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 14, 2016, 01:16:27 PM
'C/F I would have hoped!......'
It's interesting that currently there's a surge in interest in 'other' key boxes, typically Bb/Eb simply because they sound so much more mellow.

Presumably Peter Kennedy did what he though right, as a reflection of the tunes he collected, and mirrored in the tune books of the time.
What is quite amazing is that the choice of keys and 'standard' DG keyboard format has continued unchallenged for such a long time until this forum started questioning both layout and now key choice.
If it hasn't been satisfactory for such a time, why has the status quo been maintained?
...... presumably in the early days, it was 'Hobson's Choice'. The melodeon on sale for many years was the Pokerwork, in DG and 3rd button start.
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 14, 2016, 01:35:09 PM
What is quite amazing is that the choice of keys and 'standard' DG keyboard format has continued unchallenged for such a long time until this forum started questioning both layout and now key choice.

I think there's been a big tune session culture since that time, which has tended to perpetuate the habit. Nobody wants to turn up at a session with a box that won't fit in with everybody else, and that in turn influences our buying decisions. And one step back from that - if you are starting a music shop and selling melodeons, what keys will you stock first, if you want them to sell quickly?... and advise potential buyers to choose, if they aren't sure?

English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? .....

C/F I would have hoped!  ;)

Yes, quite possibly, as they were always readily available. With the possible consequence that we'd be playing less with fiddles and more with wind and brass instruments whose keys are more closely related. I'm always amazed at how Sax players with E♭ instruments manage in D, which is five sharps for them.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Simon W on October 14, 2016, 01:38:56 PM
Similarly, if Peter Kennedy hadn't encouraged the manufacture and import of D/G boxes, it's possible that the English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? .....

C/F I would have hoped!  ;)

Me too Steve
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 14, 2016, 05:13:28 PM
Anahata: I think the session culture has been hand in hand with the growth in English music and (re) learning how to play it.
More people learning, more demand for instruments so increase in shops and eventually greater choice of instruments.
Ultimately, more people become proficient in their instruments and start to explore both music and instruments in greater depth. Perhaps that's where we are now and looking back with hindsight and ~70 years of accumulated knowledge.
' if we knew what we know now we'd have done something different....'
Maybe.....
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: IanD on October 14, 2016, 05:36:07 PM
What is quite amazing is that the choice of keys and 'standard' DG keyboard format has continued unchallenged for such a long time until this forum started questioning both layout and now key choice.

I think there's been a big tune session culture since that time, which has tended to perpetuate the habit. Nobody wants to turn up at a session with a box that won't fit in with everybody else, and that in turn influences our buying decisions. And one step back from that - if you are starting a music shop and selling melodeons, what keys will you stock first, if you want them to sell quickly?... and advise potential buyers to choose, if they aren't sure?

English melodeon players now might be playing... who knows? .....

C/F I would have hoped!  ;)

Yes, quite possibly, as they were always readily available. With the possible consequence that we'd be playing less with fiddles and more with wind and brass instruments whose keys are more closely related. I'm always amazed at how Sax players with E♭ instruments manage in D, which is five sharps for them.

It's all a matter of what you're used to. Hilda improvises sax harmonies on-the-fly (and occasionally plays tunes...) in D and G because that's what she's always done. Now put her in a flat session and watch her head explode as she tries to unlearn all those accidentals and play in the natural keys of the instruments...;-)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: oggiesnr on October 14, 2016, 06:50:57 PM
It's interesting to  note that the biggest melodeon teaching weekend in the England (Melodeons at Witney) is specifically for D/G.  Don't expect to see an end to the dominance any time soon.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on October 14, 2016, 11:13:59 PM
... or B/C/C# like Jimmy Shand ...

Or John K.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 15, 2016, 12:52:38 AM
It's interesting to  note that the biggest melodeon teaching weekend in the England (Melodeons at Witney) is specifically for D/G.  Don't expect to see an end to the dominance any time soon.

I've mentioned this to Dave Townsend (the organiser) a couple of times in the past, wondering if it might be possible to run one or two workshops specifically for melodeons in other keys, especially for G/C doing French tunes/tuition with someone like Emmanuel Pariselle as a tutor. Dave thought it was an interesting suggestion but feared the take-up for the workshops would be too small. However, I can foresee a possible growing demand and I might mention it again at MAW in a few weeks time.

Meanwhile it's D/G business as usual, because (as Dave says) that's what everyone has.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: george garside on October 15, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
having started around 1956 on bc because a mate of mine had one and DG's were not available  we played mostly on the row in B or C! . I eventualy discovered the chromatic properties of the BC getting the hang of the bluebell polka with its 3 keys. From that point the BCC# was the obvious way to go for the flat keys free of charge  and easier everything than a 2 row bc plus decent bass for all keys.

It s many years later when I bought a DG box  simply because it was pointless taking a large bcc to sessions that were entirely in  D & G !  From that point I have played  BC(c#) and DG boxes regularly the choice depending on where, and with who.

 flirtations with CF  aand GC boxes have been short  followed by rapid disposal  as the bc does the C bit with a full dose of accidentals and  FCGDAE are easy on the treble end but largely bass less on 8 bass jobs. The bbc#  does with aplomb what CF anad GC boxes do.

because of its lightness ( I have angina)  and punchy bass I use a 3 voice dg for ceilidh  band work  and have always used DG for morris because that's what others in the ''band'' use so again no point in lugging around a large 3 row.

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Inventor on October 15, 2016, 05:01:39 PM
Parts of that Erica of mine from the 1950s still exist; I never throw anything away. However I first converted it to an A/D/G melodeon with a slightly different octave. Then it got canibalised for other later experiments.
In those days Fiddlers not melodeonists led the way, and were likely to burst into the key of A at the drop of a hat.

Inventor. 
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 15, 2016, 09:40:16 PM
Parts of that Erica of mine from the 1950s still exist; I never throw anything away. However I first converted it to an A/D/G melodeon with a slightly different octave. Then it got canibalised for other later experiments.
In those days Fiddlers not melodeonists led the way, and were likely to burst into the key of A at the drop of a hat.

Inventor.

And still do, most A fiddle tunes are pretty straightforward on a D/G box.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 15, 2016, 10:49:20 PM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 16, 2016, 12:07:14 AM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.

Aye, they're only playing half the box  >:E
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: george garside on October 16, 2016, 12:36:56 AM
posted when pisatively post  ! the DG is great but has severe limitaions - long live the BCC#!

george ;D
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: richard.fleming on October 16, 2016, 09:25:09 AM
Interesting to see George Garside daring to mention the limitations of the DG box on this forum. I'm amazed that more players, hearing semitone boxes played well, don't see that as the way to go.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Mike Carney on October 16, 2016, 10:00:56 AM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.
As someone who has done just that I agree with you. However I would suggest that for some people it is so far out of their comfort zone that attempting to play in A in a group situation feels too risky. Unless you have had a good go at doing so in the privacy of your own home it is entirely understandable. When choosing which tunes to learn I can understand not choosing anything in A when someone plays a DG...  Now, where's that music for Atholl Highlanders...
M
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Steve_freereeder on October 16, 2016, 10:06:36 AM
Interesting to see George Garside daring to mention the limitations of the DG box on this forum. I'm amazed that more players, hearing semitone boxes played well, don't see that as the way to go.

As usual, I think it's horses for courses. As George has already mentioned D/G boxes are fantastic for English traditional dance music where you need the great rhythmic drive which comes from the push-pull action of a 4th-apart tuned box, with its really useful basses. Can't see a B/C box being particularly effective for morris or molly dancing... And you can't beat a nice G/C box for those slinky sexy French mazurkas in A minor.
 >:E
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Chris Ryall on October 16, 2016, 10:26:41 AM
those slinky sexy French mazurkas in A minor.   >:E

Careful there! GCHQ have thousands of computers monitoring these groups … building up our "profiles" ::)  we've already been Net Nannied wrt ….ways of attaching strips of leather to boxes  ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: 911377brian on October 16, 2016, 12:41:15 PM
Straps? Works for me, but I'm special...
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 16, 2016, 02:34:52 PM
.. the DG is great but has severe limitaions -

Interesting to see George Garside daring to mention the limitations of the DG box on this forum.

I think you might have got him in a particularly jolly mood! :|glug
There is a none too subtle clue here;

posted when pisatively post  !
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Anahata on October 16, 2016, 02:51:14 PM
Atholl Highlanders is a particularly good example where there's no excuse at all for D/G melodeon players.
- It doesn't need a top G♯
- A is the ONLY key you can play it in on a D/G melodeon
- you have all the notes and all the chords (except you should probably avoid the  E minor and just play the bass note).

There are other tunes in A where real compromises are needed, but AH is not one of them.
I came to melodeon from B/C/C♯ though, where I was used to playing in G on the C row, so it wasn't such a hard transition.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: playandteach on October 16, 2016, 04:26:02 PM
I've mentioned this to Dave Townsend (the organiser) a couple of times in the past, wondering if it might be possible to run one or two workshops specifically for melodeons in other keys, especially for G/C doing French tunes/tuition with someone like Emmanuel Pariselle as a tutor. Dave thought it was an interesting suggestion but feared the take-up for the workshops would be too small. However, I can foresee a possible growing demand and I might mention it again at MAW in a few weeks time.

Meanwhile it's D/G business as usual, because (as Dave says) that's what everyone has.
I'll be bringing my G/C - and whatever D/G box I end up with. I'm worried that I'll be the only one there struggling to rethink the chords and RH as a transposition of the G/C world - I'll be at least 3 steps behind.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Hasse on October 16, 2016, 08:57:48 PM
Interesting reading!!!  (:)

I've also been wondering when the D/G became the most popular box in Denmark, I suspect it might not have been until the 1970s?

I know where I grew up one of the CBA player had a G/D box, that he had probably put together himself from a A/D and G/C box. Did any one of you ever come across G/D boxes like that?

Can’t really remember if he played it one row style, but since he played mainly CBA I suspect he didn’t play much cross row on that box.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on October 16, 2016, 09:27:51 PM
Hasse, there is a famous GD box being talked about on another thread.
I think Rees will give you the details in a while. It was played by Dave Roberts who was the original Blowzabella melodeon player.

Take a look here....
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,19341.0.html

Cheers
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Hasse on October 16, 2016, 09:46:39 PM
Yes, sorry I know of that thread. Didn't mean to thread drift... much anyway... ::)

I was just wondering if older home fixed G/D boxes might have been a more normal sight before the luxury of factory made D/G boxes were available. The G/D as a sort of pre-D/G? And might just been played up and down the rows?

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 17, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Hasse, there is a famous GD box being talked about on another thread.
I think Rees will give you the details in a while. It was played by Dave Roberts who was the original Blowzabella melodeon player.

Take a look here....
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,19341.0.html

Cheers
Q

Dave Roberts certainly played across the rows on his G/D.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Chris Ryall on October 17, 2016, 11:26:38 AM
I went back to early 70's Folk Camps with Dave and was delighted with what he did after joining Blowzabella.

Last saw him at mid Wales festival in '95 and had the pleasure of telling that "he'd done more than anyone I knew to move on melodeon technique in Britain". He seemed surprized! Great bloke, though he was the original 'Bazerker' at times.  Yes .. "G/D"  :o
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Pearse Rossa on October 17, 2016, 04:21:19 PM
I was just wondering if older home fixed G/D boxes might have been a more normal sight before the luxury of factory made D/G boxes were available. The G/D as a sort of pre-D/G? And might just been played up and down the rows?

That would not be the case it seems, based on this piece of evidence;

I've been told that D/G (in English music) originated with a couple of dance players on Dartmoor in the 1940s, who got their Club Model C/F accordions (which were themselves a new introduction in the 1930s) converted to play in D/G, to suit the keys of the fiddle players...

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pgroff on October 18, 2016, 06:29:13 PM
Not to dispute anything written above (which explicitly focuses on English music), but I have seen the occasional low-octave D/G Italian box turn up in the US, seemingly made ca. 1940s- 1950s.  The one I have at present is a ca 1950 (? plus or minus a decade?) Ficosecco in high-pitch D/G (around A 450, not really high enough to be considered a low-pitch Eb/Ab), voiced LMM but with each of those sets of reeds an octave below a typical English D/G in LMM. Maybe this should be indicated "L, LL"

Thus the inside G row of this D/G Ficosecco is very low-pitched; it has reeds in the octave you would usually find in an Italian LMM box in the keys of G/C. But its outside D row has reeds that are a fourth interval lower still.

I think Malcolm Clapp wrote me that he also had a "low LMM D/G" box in similar keys, voicings, and octaves.

The Hohners from the 1930s in DGC (also with a very low octave D row) that turn up in the US have been discussed in other threads on this forum over the years.


PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: rees on October 18, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
I have a Castagnari Roma MMM, about 10 years old, in low D/G as you describe. I bought it second-hand from an Italian musician. It is well used.
They play in the upper octaves so it makes sense.
This explains the confusion when I first began importing boxes to the UK from Italy in 1984. Whaaaaat!!!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Grape Ape on October 18, 2016, 09:32:01 PM
I would like to find a box in DGC, that sounds fun! 

Man, even for someone who has never played a DG box, this discussion is fascinating.

I also wonder, after seeing videos of Luke Deaton playing French tunes on his BC if GC really is the best key for French tunes....

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on October 18, 2016, 10:58:31 PM

I think Malcolm Clapp wrote me that he also had a "low LMM D/G" box in similar keys, voicings, and octaves.

PG

Yes, indeed I do, but a more modern (1991) Dino Baffetti Carnival ART 87. I can't really say that I have bonded too well with it though, as it is only 19 buttons, so playing up at the dusty end often leaves me short of the ideal range, and at the low end, using the standard D/G style fingering, it lacks the tonal quality to be heard at sessions or while busking, though for home use in a nice resonant room it certainly makes the windows rattle.

Judging by its condition, I would say that it has been played quite a lot by its previous owner(s). I purchased it from Italy, so presumably somewhere in that country there is/was possibly a D/G tradition....
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: IanD on October 20, 2016, 02:31:57 PM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.

Aaargh -- A is by far the best key for Atholl Highlanders on a D/G box!!!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 20, 2016, 07:48:47 PM
Exactly, of course it is.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Henry Piper on October 28, 2016, 08:40:05 PM
Is it at all possible that some of the earliest German-built D/G Ericas or Pokerworks still around today originated from Peter Kennedy's initial ordering? We wouldn't necessarily today know their provenance.

 I had an Erica in D/G which I bought in the Early 70, if I remember correctly, Second hand from a middle aged lady in Catford S.E London, who formerly used it for Country dance playing, it came with a Bell accordians Plastic badge on the rear, It was fitted with a new set of reeds about 15 years ago, and I recently refurbished it including stripping the plastic covering off complete with a coat of black paint !! (added when the Black Ericas became trendy) as it was getting really tatty and sold it on to another member on this forum, who as far as I know is very happy with it.
I have often wondered if this might have been one of the EFDSS issue ones, The lady from whom I bought it certainly gave the impression of being an EFDSS, and PLayford type !!.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on October 29, 2016, 11:20:03 PM
I know that English concertina player and I think I know the session. Yes, he does play "Athol Highlanders" in A as God intended. The only D/G player who follows him on this is usually me (thank you George!). Most D/G players round our way tend to play it in G, because they need the basses for ceilidh playing.

Chris B.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 30, 2016, 07:05:36 AM
I play it in A for ceilidhs.  The guitar player takes care of the chords.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: george garside on October 30, 2016, 08:11:18 AM
i just tap the bass very lightly  - ?slightly tuned percussion- nobody has ever made an adverse comment but maybe too pissed to notice!
george ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: ACE on October 30, 2016, 02:49:57 PM
I would like to find a box in DGC, that sounds fun! 




Mine is nearly there G/D/Bb. The Bb is a 9 button helper row with 14 basses on the other end. Fun? yes, confusing at first and still finding the possibilities. Speciality tuned for somebody in a former life, but not having a helper row I had to learn how to use one anyway so the layout although strange to somebody else is starting to fit me now.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on October 30, 2016, 03:04:26 PM
I play it in A for ceilidhs.  The guitar player takes care of the chords.

That's what they're there for.... :|glug :|glug
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: george garside on October 30, 2016, 04:38:39 PM
I would like to find a box in DGC, that sounds fun! 




Mine is nearly there G/D/Bb. The Bb is a 9 button helper row with 14 basses on the other end. Fun? yes, confusing at first and still finding the possibilities. Speciality tuned for somebody in a former life, but not having a helper row I had to learn how to use one anyway so the layout although strange to somebody else is starting to fit me now.

that sounds fairly horrendous to get the hang of!  The BCC# layout is completely logical in comparison to  DG + any sort of helper row and has the advantage of accidentals in both directions.  The keys of G and D are also very easy to get the hang of   (and automatically give you the wherewithal for Ab and Eb entirely free of charge!   For what its worth I love my simple 2 row DG boxes for playing in D & G  but once  you start adding varied 'complications' to a simple 2 row DG  it becomes more complicated to learn than a BCC# box

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Jack Campin on October 30, 2016, 05:25:53 PM
Quote
Mine is nearly there G/D/Bb. The Bb is a 9 button helper row with 14 basses on the other end.

That should be a pretty good setup for klezmer.  Can you do all of D & G major and D & G minor on the push?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: IanD on October 31, 2016, 05:48:56 PM
I play it in A for ceilidhs.  The guitar player takes care of the chords.
Why don't you play the chords on the box, they're all there?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 31, 2016, 05:51:25 PM
That's why we have a guitar player.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pikey on October 31, 2016, 06:49:43 PM
I know that English concertina player and I think I know the session. Yes, he does play "Athol Highlanders" in A as God intended. The only D/G player who follows him on this is usually me (thank you George!). Most D/G players round our way tend to play it in G, because they need the basses for ceilidh playing.

Chris B.

Ahem .......
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pikey on October 31, 2016, 06:52:00 PM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.

That would have been Mike Jary, and I'm never quiet  ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Theo on October 31, 2016, 07:02:43 PM
I agree with you there Rees, but when I venture south of the Tees it's rare to find a DG player who doesn't put their box down when the key of  A crops up in a session.  I was recently at an event in York where this happened.  A English concertina player played a set that went into a well known A tune, Athol Highlanders I think, and the DG section went very quiet.

That would have been Mike Jary, and I'm never quiet  ;)

Of course not you Pikey, but the total volume level from the boxes took a noticeable dive at that point.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Julian S on October 31, 2016, 07:14:39 PM
Sorry for thread drift, but I vote for playing Atholl Highlanders in A at the forthcoming M.at W sometime ! No other key will do...
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Rog on October 31, 2016, 07:17:00 PM
If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)

This is why I keep a little Hohner Student II PA handy, with thirdless chords.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pgroff on December 10, 2016, 05:11:44 PM
Not to dispute anything written above (which explicitly focuses on English music), but I have seen the occasional low-octave D/G Italian box turn up in the US, seemingly made ca. 1940s- 1950s.  The one I have at present is a ca 1950 (? plus or minus a decade?) Ficosecco in high-pitch D/G (around A 450, not really high enough to be considered a low-pitch Eb/Ab), voiced LMM but with each of those sets of reeds an octave below a typical English D/G in LMM. Maybe this should be indicated "L, LL"

Thus the inside G row of this D/G Ficosecco is very low-pitched; it has reeds in the octave you would usually find in an Italian LMM box in the keys of G/C. But its outside D row has reeds that are a fourth interval lower still.

I think Malcolm Clapp wrote me that he also had a "low LMM D/G" box in similar keys, voicings, and octaves.

The Hohners from the 1930s in DGC (also with a very low octave D row) that turn up in the US have been discussed in other threads on this forum over the years.


PG

Here's that Ficosecco (low) D/G that I mentioned. Checking more closely, the pitch is closer to A 446.

Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on December 12, 2016, 01:00:35 PM
Not to dispute anything written above (which explicitly focuses on English music), but I have seen the occasional low-octave D/G Italian box turn up in the US, seemingly made ca. 1940s- 1950s.

The Hohners from the 1930s in DGC (also with a very low octave D row) that turn up in the US have been discussed in other threads on this forum over the years.

For that matter, I've become aware that a small number pf D/G boxes were built by Hohner in the 1930s - because the odd (and very rare) one has occasionally surfaced in Germany. And why not, seeing that they seem to have made boxes in all sorts of keys in those days?

But I've never heard of a pre-1955 Hohner turning up in England, where they're now regarded as very much a part of "the tradition" and ubiquitous...

Likewise, you wouldn't think today that G/G# was very popular in Ireland in the 1930s and '40s, carrying on into the '50s and '60s, or that you couldn't buy a C#/D Paolo Soprani until 1953, and, even then, only in 4-voice.  :o
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on December 12, 2016, 01:37:37 PM
Here's that Ficosecco (low) D/G that I mentioned. Checking more closely, the pitch is closer to A 446.

With buck-tooth couplers and a "pepperpot" grille of sorts, they look rather strange on such an angular box - when you'd be more-used to seeing them on a streamlined one.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pgroff on December 12, 2016, 02:11:50 PM
Here's almost the same model Ficosecco, in G/C. Different color scheme and slightly different decoration. My D/G was a nicely made box (though now in rough, "project" condition), so this G/C might be a good value for someone. It has been listed for sale for quite a few years and I've thought about making an offer on it:

http://www.kuikaccordeons.nl/ka/webwinkel/webwinkel/?categorie_id=21&subcategorie_id=53&product_id=954

PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: pgroff on November 30, 2017, 06:08:21 PM
Back to D/G accordions . . .  Though a little off-topic, our discussion above included some examples of D/G system button accordions  from outside the "English folk revival mainstream;" here are two more.

The Quagliardi may not be very old, though well used, but the Engelmann is probably ca. 1900.

1) H. Engelmann No. 109, St. Louis Missouri USA. D/G LM, scale starts on button #2, pitch ca. A = 446 (non-equal tempered).
See this discussion topic:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,21434.0.html

2) Quagliardi Orlando & Figli, Castelfidardo. D/G LMM, A = 443 (non-equal-tempered).  Pallet cover (grille) missing. Some pallets unoriginal. Reeds seem to be TAM or better.

PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: MarioP on December 28, 2017, 12:05:22 PM
Thanks for this topic has helped me understand where the C/C# went.. Thanks D/G
I just got me a two row C/C# love it's feeling and it's like new. this topic also explains why it is still like new.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-1930-40s-Steel-Reeds-Hohner-2-Row-Button-Accordion-Art-Deco/362184122997?hash=item5453db2275:g:-cwAAOSw0A9aLuNE
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: pgroff on December 28, 2017, 04:17:35 PM
MarioP,

That's a really cool accordion, congratulations!

PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: MarioP on December 28, 2017, 04:22:56 PM
I couldn't help myself (i actually got it thinking i'm gonna swap the keyboard to modify it and use it on my 3 row but i'm keeping it the way it is :D
MarioP,

That's a really cool accordion, congratulations!

PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 30, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)

This is why I keep a little Hohner Student II PA handy, with thirdless chords.

A is not difficult on a DG box but its even easier on a BC ( and easier still on a BCC#)

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: gettabettabox on December 30, 2017, 05:59:45 PM
i tried the B/C/C# system a while back, but it didn't last long.
Everything was just too easy, the tunes simply flowed from the accordion in any key I could imagine.
I gave it up because I no longer felt it to be a challenge.
I prefer to struggle these days on a single row in D.  (:)  :||:
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: gettabettabox on December 30, 2017, 06:05:43 PM
 >:E
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 30, 2017, 07:39:08 PM
i tried the B/C/C# system a while back, but it didn't last long.
Everything was just too easy, the tunes simply flowed from the accordion in any key I could imagine.
I gave it up because I no longer felt it to be a challenge.
 

I've heard that said often enough about the continental chromatic C system but never about the BCC# which  I have heard  on some occasions being refered to as a 'diabolical contraption'

george ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: gettabettabox on December 30, 2017, 09:00:19 PM
I yield George...to your incredible persistence.
I shall rejoin the church of the holy trinity row accordion.
 (:)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 31, 2017, 08:09:33 AM
 ;)
G
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: baz parkes on December 31, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
;)
G

B/C surely

 :|glug
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 31, 2017, 02:50:13 PM
that and the BCC#  , the third row making it far easier to play  .  you also have in effect a BC aand a CC# which adds up to 5 scales for 12 keys

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 31, 2017, 02:55:37 PM
I've just been listening to John Kirkpatrick playing several Shropshire tunes on his BCC#.
It always reminds me that the beast is really huge, the box, not John ( though he's not diminutive!)
Surely they must require some physical effort to play?
It must be one extreme to the other going from that to a one row!

Also, listening to his lovely left hand accompniament it is a great mixture of chord and bass with the plus of bass runs everywhere, but it sounds different. It never sounds as crisp as a melodeon, much fuller round sound, or is it my perception?
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 31, 2017, 03:15:00 PM
the way John plays the BCC# is quite unique  and quite brilliant as well!.  He uses much more energetic bellows movement which seems to fit well with his style. Most BCC# players use minimal bellows opening  and there are loads of youtube vids of such playing  .  Jimmy Shand was particularly noted for his economic use of the bellwos.   

personally as a knackered 75 year old I find the 96 bass gaelic (played seated) requires  less effort that my 3 voice DG 8 bass serenellini.  This is probably because the mush greater cubic capacity of the bellows  provided the necessary wind over the reeds  with far less movement than on a smaller box  and therefore much less  effort with the left arm.  As I have said John has his own unique way of playing which works very well for him.

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Anahata on December 31, 2017, 03:39:14 PM
I've been told that the Shand Merino, despite being a good bit bigger than the Gaelic IV, is actually easier to play because it is so well made. Everything perfectly balanced, and very responsive reeds.

I suspect John K's box is highly performance-tuned too.

I switched from Gaelic IV to Hohner Pokerwork because I could get just as much sound from a much lighter box, and by then I'd found out that it wasn't all that useful to be able to play in lots of keys. I missed the fully chromatic bass, though.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 31, 2017, 03:41:48 PM
I'm aware of the larger the box the greater the bellows capacity and the frequent comment about them being easier to play. I'm amazed that you find your BCC# less effort than a 2 row 8 bass !
I can understand it, after once trying a 3 row 18(? ) bass Handry whilst it's owner was building his Pariselle. I sneaked into another room with it and did find it surprisingly easy to play, but as you say, with much less energetic bellows movement.

Still, as ever John seems to break the 'normal' rules with great effect!
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 31, 2017, 03:57:12 PM
For 'english' ceilidhs/ barn dances I use the  3 voice 2 row mostly as everybody seems perfectly happy with tunes in D or G  and the much lighter  weight  means less strain on the shoulders.  So in some ways its a balancing trick between effort of bellowing - v - overall weight on the shoulders ,even when seated. In other words the simple Dg does the job very well and the  veriety of keys and much more harmonic bass of the big box are simply not required.

But for sheer pleasure of playing  its my gaelic everytime  it being ,to me , a poor mans Shand Morino.  Much as I would love a 40 button SM I cannot justify ( to her indoors)  forking out the going rate for a good one  which is  around 3 or 4 times as much as a good gaelic.

 george

 
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 31, 2017, 04:57:19 PM
You and Anahata touch on something else there - the keys of DG!
When I played English Concertina, I had access to all the keys, being chromatic, but lacked the accompniament of a bass end. That in a nutshell is why I switched. I wanted to 'thicken up' the sound with a bass end and rarely played in other keys but D and G as that's where my music lies. If I did play outside those keys at a session then it became a solo....
As you say George, the DG melodeon is the tool I need for the job!
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: aegelstane on December 31, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
Saw Brandon M'Phee in action in Shrewsbury in November.Fantastic! Look him up on utube
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 31, 2017, 05:27:10 PM
I bought my present gaelic off Brandon and its very good indeed!

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: oggiesnr on January 12, 2018, 01:20:43 PM
At a slight tangent. 

D/G is the most common melodeon and lots of tunes for whatever reason fall into those keys.  Why then is the most common two row anglo G/C?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: triskel on January 12, 2018, 02:30:58 PM
D/G is the most common melodeon and lots of tunes for whatever reason fall into those keys.  Why then is the most common two row anglo G/C?

Firstly, for clarification, Anglos aren't in G/C, they're in C/G (low C/high G), it's melodeons that are in G/C (low G/high C), and they sound very good together in G (an octave apart).

Otherwise, if you play a 3- or 4-row C/G Anglo "across the rows" (like they were designed for, instead of simply "on the straight row") the third key of the instrument (needing only one note from the outside/accidentals row = C#) is that of D.

Secondly, as I wrote, English music used to be played on C melodeons (which were much the easiest to get) - as was still traditional in East Anglia into recent times. The first 2-row D/G boxes didn't appear (in England) until 1955 (and there were only 20 of them made then!), but D/G was still only becoming popular in the late '60s/early'70s (when I first took an interest in playing such things) and Bells were still selling C/C# boxes as "the norm" even then.

But a lot of tunes were written down from the playing of fiddlers, or tabor pipe players, so they're notated in the usual D and G keys of their insuments, whilst if they'd been collected from cornet players they'd be written out in Bb and Eb, and so on - but that doesn't mean they have to be played in those keys...

Thirdly, for that matter G/D Anglos were virtually non-existant until the 1970s, when a number of tuners (myself included) started to convert old Salvation Army Ab/Eb ones (to go with the brass instruments) into G/D to go with these "new fangled" D/G melodeons.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Theo on January 12, 2018, 04:33:39 PM
D/G is the most common melodeon and lots of tunes for whatever reason fall into those keys.  Why then is the most common two row anglo G/C?

And further -  I see plenty of signs that the rise of the DG melodeon has resulted in many tunes being transposed to those keys.  When I visit sessions further south where DG boxes are the most common session instruments D and G and related minors are almost the only keys I hear.  Here in NE England where fiddles are the most common session instrument a much wider range of keys are played.   On a typical session I will hear several of D G A E Am Em Bm Bb F Gm Dm F#m C.  It makes for a much more varied evening and it is really very enjoyable to *not* play every tune but instead to listen and enjoy what others are playing.

I've recently acquired a very nice lightweight CF box so I now take that along and am starting to learn some of the Gm and Dm tunes that the fiddle payers love and which are hard work on a DG box, even with extra accidentals.  I'm encouraged by the recent interest in BbEb boxes and hope it will be a start towards opening up a wider range of keys in session playing generally.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Rob2Hook on January 13, 2018, 12:06:23 AM
That's the problem for a small box player (the box, that is - although I'm not of great stature either).  If you want to enjoy playing in a wider variety of keys during one evening, you end up lugging several boxes into the pub.  That's OK, but I find it much more difficult to lug them out again after a few bevvies!

I once turned up with D/G, C/F and Bb/Eb, but as you say here in the south nobody was interested in letting me play anything but the D/G - so I played a tune in C on it just to confuse them...

Rob.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Lester on January 13, 2018, 09:00:21 AM
That's the problem for a small box player (the box, that is - although I'm not of great stature either).  If you want to enjoy playing in a wider variety of keys during one evening, you end up lugging several boxes into the pub.  That's OK, but I find it much more difficult to lug them out again after a few bevvies!

I once turned up with D/G, C/F and Bb/Eb, but as you say here in the south nobody was interested in letting me play anything but the D/G - so I played a tune in C on it just to confuse them...

Rob.

I take my current D/G box plus a small case with a C/F and a Bb/Eb Liliput, lightweight and covers most bases.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on January 13, 2018, 10:41:11 AM
for ease of carrying for Englishish  sessions  a 2 row DG plus a handful or pocketful of mouthies  does the trick .  For anybody that has not come from  a mouthie   background  in simple terms 'if you can play it on the row on a dg or whatever box you can play it on a mouthie - and compared with boxes they ae cheap as chips.  I  have them in Bb.Eb,F,C, (g,d,)  A and E.  anad they all fit in a little camera bag.

george

Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 13, 2018, 11:16:34 AM
To pick up Theo's point about possibly seeing the start of different keys appearing in sessions:
I wonder if, as Triskel says, that with the rise ( re-birth?) of English music in the early '70's we are now becoming more mature.
More precisely, the music has matured and we can start to step outside the narrow road and explore, safe in the knowledge we have a good solid base of music to come back to that is now self propelling and won't fizzle out now?
Just musing.....
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on January 13, 2018, 11:32:33 AM
on one of the rare occasions I took a big 3 row to a session in DGland  I accidentally  played  'home on the range' in Ab instead  of G to   disgruntled comments such as 'what bloody key is that'

george ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: triskel on January 13, 2018, 12:08:27 PM
on one of the rare occasions I took a big 3 row to a session in DG-land  I accidentally  played  'home on the range' in Ab instead  of G to   disgruntled comments such as 'what bloody key is that'

That'd be where the D/D#, instead of the C#/D, would come in handy... ;)

Mind you, I've a 3515 in G/C, and another in G#/C# (they made them in some unusual keys in the 1930s! :o), that I have wicked thoughts of turning into a G/G# and a C/C#. >:E
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 13, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
Ooh! You ARE awful.  8)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: triskel on January 13, 2018, 01:26:21 PM
Ooh! You ARE awful.  8)

Mea culpa!  :|bl
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: oggiesnr on January 13, 2018, 07:24:13 PM

Otherwise, if you play a 3- or 4-row C/G Anglo "across the rows" (like they were designed for, instead of simply "on the straight row") the third key of the instrument (needing only one note from the outside/accidentals row = C#) is that of D.
...
Thirdly, for that matter G/D Anglos were virtually non-existant until the 1970s, when a number of tuners (myself included) started to convert old Salvation Army Ab/Eb ones (to go with the brass instruments) into G/D to go with these "new fangled" D/G melodeons.

Whilst I take your point about a three row anglo I did specify two row as when I started playing those were what were commonly around at affordable prices (I still have the Lachenal I learnt on, cost me a tenner).  I also remember my first G/D (also a tenner) which was one of those East German painted jobbies that arrived in the early seventies. 
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 14, 2018, 08:18:54 AM
Oddly enough I’ve only just come across this thread, I think I was in Tasmania at the time.
  When I had the honour to play Bob Cann’s Hohner in a pub “The Ring o Bells” in St Issey Cornwall in the 70’s it certainly didn’t have a gleighton.
  Incidentally, I managed to break a reed....he was very nice about it.  :'(
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on January 14, 2018, 10:52:05 AM
when DG boxes started to become popular I think most people played more or less entirely 'on the row'  exept for going over to the D row for low E.  This was great  for dance and session music as there was rumpy pumpy bass for both rows  unlike the BC  which only had rumpy pumpy bass if playing in C ( unless you had one of the relatively rare 12 stradella bass double rays)

So life on a DG was simple  and if you could get a tune out of a mouthie you could get one out of a DG box.

But then  the  fashion for playing 'cross row'  on the DG crept in   which not only made a simple but great  box far more complicated  but eventually led to the need for an extra dollop of buttons on a half row - which made it even more complicated!

But people forgot that the humble BC  or C#D was far easier and logical to play in  a range of keys  than the new fangled DG+ boxes

just a thought!

george ;)
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Winston Smith on January 14, 2018, 11:01:25 AM
I think I really need to get hold of a playable semi-tone box, Mr Garside's posts always leave me curious!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Nick Collis Bird on January 14, 2018, 01:42:32 PM
You’re absolutely right George, in fact I still play “rumpy pumpy” bass. I still reckon it’s a dance instrument .
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 14, 2018, 02:13:57 PM
Again George, I think this might also come back to where we are now and reflective of the English music revival since the early '70's.
Then tutors for melodeon were unheard of ( well I didn't know of any!) so people learnt by themselves, trial and error. Tune books were uncommon. My mid- late '78 ish entry with concertina into English music and I was advised to get an EFDSS series of books and Kerrs Merrie Melodies and that was that.
Now the whole scene has matured, tune books easily available, tutors accessible at festivals and even into your own home and computer via Skype.

My point being, people are no longer struggling to *just* play tunes.
They want to play better, investigate the dusty corners of the boxes and tunes from manuscripts being available now online.
I think cross rowing and playing more than the rumpty bass is all part of the desire to go further and investigate what can be done on a melodeon.
Some videos appearing recently on here recently go from  a Scandanavian tune described as an accidental workout, and playing Stevie Wonder tunes. People are becoming more adventurous in their playing!
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Rob2Hook on January 14, 2018, 04:23:43 PM
Indeed, things have changed and continue to change.  Of course with change comes both advancement and misadventure.  I'm of the school of thought that dance music, whilst it may be tastefully decorated and arranged, is most importantly simple and rhythmic.  My legs and lungs aren't up to the challenge anymore, but thinking back there were a number of bands who managed to achieve fusion of differing popular styles into their music - prime examples being The Committee Band and Whapweasel.  I won't name those I was less than impressed with, but even at major festivals one was sometimes presented with a band that tried so hard to be different that they exceeded the bounds of what would be acceptable in concert yet whilst they were being engaged as a dance band their music was frankly undanceable!  More complex boxes do sometimes tempt their players to excess but in a band context it seems best that the band leader should not be the one likely to go overboard.

For myself I prefer a two row D/G, preferably three voice, for dance.  It suits the mix with other band instruments and the lower voice adds a little lower timbre missing from most melody instruments.  At home I often play a Club which of course is C/F and has seven accidentals/reversals, though limited bass options.  It could be that my choice is made easier by the fact that I am not confident of playing the more complex repertoire in public!

Rob.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 14, 2018, 04:45:58 PM
Thanks Rob, I'm relieved I'm not alone in thinking there's been change.
To my mind it's a classic situation. Now there is a massive base of music and musicians to fall back on, then there's scope to experiment.
As ever some experiments will work and others not, but at least overall the movement is going forward and not stagnating, which must be a good thing.
Q
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: triskel on January 14, 2018, 08:55:52 PM
Whilst I take your point about a three row anglo I did specify two row ...

Which is why my paragraph on that topic started with "Otherwise ...", but it's not impossible to get away with playing a C/G Anglo in D-manqué - you just have to fudge the missing C#, like 10-key melodeon players do to play in other keys...  ;)

Quote
... two row ... when I started playing those were what were commonly around at affordable prices. (I still have the Lachenal I learnt on, cost me a tenner).

Two rows were always more common, but I was lucky enough to find a metal-ended 36-key Lachenal for my first Anglo and it cost me £17 ,, !0s - but that was the price of a new Hohner 114 then, and expensive-enough for a student at the time.  :(

Quote
I also remember my first G/D (also a tenner) which was one of those East German painted jobbies that arrived in the early seventies. 

My earliest recollection is of smaller, single-reeded red ones, in C/G that cost 5 guineas, and larger, double-reeded yellow ones, in D/G that cost 8 guineas. But German concertinas in G/D had been around for a century or more by then (only no D/G accordions to go with them :-\), whilst I was talking about English-made Anglo concertinas in G/D being "virtually non-existant until the 1970s".
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Ivor Hyde on January 28, 2018, 05:19:54 PM
Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I'd love to see him again and tell him how much I've enjoyed the boxes he's fixed for me.

Rob.

Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Hugh Taylor on February 19, 2018, 04:38:04 PM
I haven't read all the posts on this topic, but I thought I would share this with you. When transcribing the Matthew Betham tune book dated around 1815 for the Village Music Project, I assessed the keys of the tunes and came up with this list -
G major (47)
D major (44)
C major (4)
A minor (3)
E minor (3)
A dorian (2)
G mixolydian (1)
D mixolydian (1)
That means that 86% of the tunes were in D or G.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Winston Smith on February 19, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
Are tunes in D and G difficult to play on a C/C# box?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Lester on February 19, 2018, 05:06:52 PM
Are tunes in D and G difficult to play on a C/C# box?

Certainly harder than on a D/G
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: pgroff on November 30, 2019, 01:09:35 PM
Quote
Hi all,

Reviving this thread to see if we can learn more about the earliest "Irish style" (i.e. flat keyboard, 23 melody key) Paolo Sopranis made in DG.

Catalogs posted by Ted McGraw suggest that the key system of DG was offered for the 4-voice, 2 coupler model "Professional IV" or "510/1" Paolos by the 1960s if not earlier. The photo of that model for this catalog (see link below * ) shows a horseshoe-grille box of the type I usually call "late 1950s," or even sometimes dated "ca 1957."  But it's possible that the photo was out of date by the time that Paolo Sopranis were being exported to Britain or Ireland in the keys of DG, so Ted's 1960s catalog may have been suggesting a combination (box in keys of DG with horseshoe grille) that never existed.

Has anyone seen a horseshoe grille Paolo Soprani like this that was an original DG? Or even an original DG example of one of the earlier types of 23 key, flat board Paolos made in the mid-1950s or earlier (pepperpots, pearl greys, etc)?

*
http://www.tedmcgraw.com/PS_Irish_catalogs.html

I can follow up with photos of two DG 4 voice, 2 coupler Paolos that I would date from the 1960s, but with a later grille type than shown in the photo here.

PG

Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: JD Dawson on December 02, 2019, 09:35:07 AM
Having started playing English music on a D/G box, and then gravitating more towards Irish tunes with their greater complexity, I've retuned my box (on the basis that many notes are duplicated on the D and G rows). Some of the notes on the D row have been converted to accidentals. In addition, all the notes have been moved up one button, to make more room for push/pull accidentals at the top of the fingerboard. The resulting box is still D/G but is completely chromatic over two octaves (D-D-D). I can understand this being regarded as eccentric rather than practical, but it is always amusing to see the look on the face of other players who attempt to play it!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 02, 2019, 10:32:18 AM
Are tunes in D and G difficult to play on a C/C# box?

easier on a BC

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: george garside on December 02, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
   I won't name those I was less than impressed with, but even at major festivals one was sometimes presented with a band that tried so hard to be different that they exceeded the bounds of what would be acceptable in concert yet whilst they were being engaged as a dance band their music was frankly undanceable!   .

For myself I prefer a two row D/G, preferably three voice, for dance.  It suits the mix with other band instruments and the lower voice adds a little lower timbre missing from most melody instruments. 
Rob.

seconded!  - and the low voice is great for 'thickening up'   tunes  for waltzes.

george
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: richard.fleming on December 02, 2019, 02:06:44 PM
Quote
Hi all,

Has anyone seen a horseshoe grille Paolo Soprani like this that was an original DG? Or even an original DG example of one of the earlier types of 23 key, flat board Paolos made in the mid-1950s or earlier (pepperpots, pearl greys).

PG

You'll be lucky to find evidence of such boxes, though as we all know  absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I suspect they started making DG boxes as a response to the English folk revival in the 1960s which featured this creation.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: Gary P Chapin on December 02, 2019, 04:18:37 PM
No "semitonally-inflected downward mordants" I trust, nor "pointless and random ornaments"...   ::) (Seán Ó Riada)


Rock on!
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: pgroff on December 03, 2019, 02:01:37 AM
Quote
Hi all,

Has anyone seen a horseshoe grille Paolo Soprani like this that was an original DG? Or even an original DG example of one of the earlier types of 23 key, flat board Paolos made in the mid-1950s or earlier (pepperpots, pearl greys).

PG

You'll be lucky to find evidence of such boxes, though as we all know  absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I suspect they started making DG boxes as a response to the English folk revival in the 1960s which featured this creation.

Thanks Richard, I agree - but had to ask. Never know who might have had one, or who might have seen one.

Here are 2 Paolos of a later style than the 1950s "horseshoe grille models." I think these two were made in the 1960s, and both in DG. One was purchased from Walton's in Dublin by Ted McGraw for Jim Finucane, who used it to play in traditional Irish music sessions.

PG

Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Theo on December 03, 2019, 08:34:53 AM
I recently purchased a set of DG reeds that were originally fitted to this much later (1980s?) Paolo Soprani.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: pgroff on May 19, 2020, 05:12:58 AM
Hi all,

Reviving this thread yet again to include another early example of a D/G. This G. Galleazzi, made in San Francisco ca 1914, is a purely diatonic DG with diatonic basses, and no accidentals on the melody side. It's an MM box in the normal octave familiar to English players of postwar 2 voice Hohner pokerwork DG boxes (not a low-octave DG as we saw in some early Italian boxes like the Ficosecco I posted earlier in this thread), but the 23 button melody keyboard takes each row down a bit lower.  This box is in quite a high pitch (approximately A 453, non-equal temperament), but that is not unusual for these early San Francisco boxes. I suppose you could consider it a low pitch Eb / Ab box but again the pre-WW1 San Francisco accordions by Galleazzi and Miller tend to be pitched high. Kimric Smythe originally reported the keys of this instrument as F# B, but in the process of passing it on to me he rechecked and found it is in DG which I have confirmed. Will attach Kimric's photo, and will try to get more photos later if there is interest. This accordion was previously discussed in the following thread:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,19312.0.html

PG
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Andrew Kennedy on May 19, 2020, 11:19:51 AM
I have a D/G heligonka which, to judge by the metal plate attached, was supplied as such (see picture).  The finish is less sophisticated, shall we say, than others by Antonin Hlavacek that I've seen in pictures, but whether this means it's an early or late model I really don't know. 
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Andrew Kennedy on May 19, 2020, 11:29:21 AM
Here's a photo of the box itself - is there anyone out there who knows about the history of this maker and what the style of the box says about its age?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Peadar on May 19, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
Vienna/Italian boxes with both side hook closures and Stradella corners appear to have been in production by 1900.

 https://archive.is/20130702161158/http://www.museistradella.it/pagine.aspx?id=2

The mix of styles appears spectacular....but it all looks original - e.g. the lettering style of Helgonka and Hlavacek is on both the treble cabinet and the bellows.

It starts to look as though Pet er Kennedy didn't invent the D&G tuning but  popularised  within English traditional music what had peviously  been a very unusual key.

(Dons tin hat, retreats to bunker).

ADMIN: edited to remove dodgy url
Edited- Second attempt at URL- From Wikipedia Article on City of Stradella in Lombardy

Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 19, 2020, 01:13:13 PM
Vienna/Italian boxes with both side hook closures and Stradella corners appear to have been in production by 1900.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Has the link been hijacked? It goes somewhere different when I try it.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Mike Hirst on May 19, 2020, 03:30:18 PM
Looks dodgy to me. i got adverts for f**in' polo shirts.  >:(

Vienna/Italian boxes with both side hook closures and Stradella corners appear to have been in production by 1900.

xxxxxxxxxxxx


Has the link been hijacked? It goes somewhere different when I try it.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Peadar on May 19, 2020, 05:44:42 PM
Sorry Chaps- I think this is the correct URL

https://archive.is/20130702161158/http://www.museistradella.it/pagine.aspx?id=2

Archived page - from Museums of City of Sradella, Lombardy, Wikipedia entry. (Shows a box cira 1900 with Stradella corners)

But even better....a live link to the Museum

http://www.comune.stradella.pv.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/163

Relevance to the the thread? Andrew Kennedy's DG Heligonka exhibits both side hooks and Stradella corners
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Tufty on June 30, 2020, 08:11:28 PM
I had always assumed that the D/G was a strictly English development but recently I have been playing along with a 1980's recording by Alain Pennec (Breton) and quickly found that I needed the D/G, rather than the G/C I had expected. On the album cover he seems to be playing a two row + 2 with 12 basses. Does anyone know if he did indeed use a D/G at that time and if so, was it common with other Breton players?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Gary P Chapin on June 30, 2020, 09:27:00 PM
That's interesting. I new about the fact that A/D boxes had a following in Brittany, but didn't know about D/Gs.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on June 30, 2020, 10:21:07 PM
I'm sure I read somewhere Stephane Delincq played a DG but the G was an octave down.... or have I dreamt it?
Title: Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
Post by: triskel on July 19, 2020, 08:40:25 PM
I've been told that D/G (in English music) originated with a couple of dance players on Dartmoor in the 1940s, who got their Club Model C/F accordions (which were themselves a new introduction in the 1930s) converted to play in D/G,...
I'm wondering how these conversions were made. Were there many fettlers around in those days?
Did the boxes go back to the supplier or the factory? Were reeds retuned or replaced I wonder

I think I've now identified a very possible candidate for the converting of those two Club Models.

There was a long-standing concertina and chromatic melodeon dealer and repairer named James A. Travers in Bridgwater, Somerset, who was born about 1890 and died at Taunton in the last quarter of 1952.
Title: Re: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949
Post by: Winston Smith on July 19, 2020, 08:49:41 PM
How lovely to see a posting with your name on, hope that you're well?
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