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Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 12:39:23 AM

Title: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 12:39:23 AM
Due to years of below standard posture, I have been having pains in my neck and shoulder.

It's hard to change after all these years, but this is what I've done so far:

*Heating pad
*Pinpoint Massager  https://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Restore-Pinpoint-Back-Massager/dp/B00LY9P6BY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484872878&sr=8-1&keywords=pinpoint+massager
 (https://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Restore-Pinpoint-Back-Massager/dp/B00LY9P6BY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484872878&sr=8-1&keywords=pinpoint+massager)
*Chair Massage
*Stretches for neck shoulder (no routine yet)
*Bought a wireless keyboard for my laptop so I can get more ergonomic and get the screen at eye level
*Brought my not so heavy dumbbells out of storage to get going
*When I play I focus on sitting up STRAIGHT, and remind myself to stay RELAXED. Limit practice sessions now
*"Tall" walking, focusing on posture
*Tylenol or Advil occasionally
*Towel as lumbar support

Somewhere in there, this is melodeon related  ;)
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: robotmay on January 20, 2017, 01:02:49 AM
For the first time since I was a teenager, I've managed to make my shoulders ache from too much computer work (I tend to hunch when really into some programming). Possible downside of finally having a job with exciting work? :o
Happily enough, however, playing the melodeon helps me to relax and actually alleviates the aches.

...that's the excuse I'm using, anyway >:E
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 01:42:22 AM
I just saw that using a desk chair with higher arms takes stress off the shoulders, which in turn relieves neck pain.
Swapping chairs now to use one with arms.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 20, 2017, 07:48:24 AM
About 18months into my playing I realised over the Christmas break that I was getting really 'tired' arms and elbow twinges. It felt like I'd been carrying out heavy work continually with my arms, which I hadn't.
I reviewed my playing position, box position etc and it wasn't abnormally out in any way. As the Christmas break went on it seemed to ease.
I suspected my computer desk at work was more likely a culprit and on returning had it officially assessed. Though not a proper work station it was remarkably spot on.
Hmmm.......
Fairly soon afterwards, at work I lightly touched the desk at work and felt my arm go immediately weak. The pc tower was sat on the desk and the fan was very gently vibrating. The effect was to continually fire the muscles ever so gently in my arms - which over the course of a day has the effect of constant work.
I isolated the tower from the desk - and to my relief sorted the problem.

There are many  and varied causes of pain or discomfort, some as I discovered not always immediately obvious.
Hope things settle down stevejay
Q
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 02:01:39 PM
I know what you mean!

I think I am on to something regarding the left arm and shoulder/neck and extra support while I am at the computer.
Due to a condition, the lack of support is causing stress and pain. Hopefully the rolled towel on the arm of the chair
is giving the support I need.

Put a towel on the left arm of my chair to help support everything, and I'll see how this goes. Without being able to use a computer without pain,  I am sol.

Now have some empathy for people suffering with chronic pain. The bright side is maybe slight subtle changes offer relief! I see how it can effect someone mentally and physically.

Best,

Steve
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Tufty on January 20, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
A couple of years ago I was in constant and growing pain - neck and shoulder. Bought a Tommy and am now fine, the heavier box now only comes out on special occasions!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 03:47:43 PM
Hi Tufty,

I don't think the melodeon caused my problems, but I'm going easy until it settles down.
I may have what is affectionately referred to as a "flare up"

I'm 56 now, so arthritis is not off the table.

PS Glad you are not in pain!! It's awful nothing seems funny, it diminishes focus for me.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: robotmay on January 20, 2017, 05:47:07 PM
I actually have the opposite problem in that I spend so much time at a computer that I now remove the armrests from any chair I have, as they caused me to get quite bad pains in my arms!
One of my previous bosses didn't want me to remove the arms of my chair in the office because it was a daft IKEA chair and the seat might have broken if I had. So they went on upside down instead; it looked like it had skis ;D

In general I find the recommended seating positions for computer use to be a bit uncomfortable. I don't think they were thought out with very prolonged use in mind. I must admit that I find being lazily reclined with a decent back support to be the most comfortable long-term. Raising your seat up higher so your arms come down onto the desk from above certainly helps too. Makes the reclining harder though!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 20, 2017, 06:27:09 PM
In general I find the recommended seating positions for computer use to be a bit uncomfortable. I don't think they were thought out with very prolonged use in mind. I must admit that I find being lazily reclined with a decent back support to be the most comfortable long-term.
We get quite expensive chairs with adjustable everything, but I too find the slouch position more comfortable and have done for many years. Apparently it has been researched, and for at least some is better than officially approved sit up straight position. The occupational health lady gives me a dirty look each time she sees me.
I get a lot of arm problems at work, but on the whole they don't affect the melodeon. I do use back straps, and the most comfortable position is very different between my Hohner and the Dino.
My home chair is a basic "operator's chair", diverted from the skip, with the left armrest removed. Oddly enough, at home I sit forward to type.
With one Morris side, at practice, we always stand up to play. This is OK, even with arthritic hips, as we sit down in between. With the other side, we sit down to play, and I find this does cause back and shoulder issues and I have to be more careful how I sit, and also use the back strap when seated.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Jack Campin on January 20, 2017, 07:34:15 PM
I was one of the first people in the UK to use a mouse (actually a puck, on the magnetic bitpad of a Perq workstation).  I developed shooting pains down my arm when using it, and thought it was RSI at first.  Turned out it was actually caused by a metabolic intolerance to anthocyanins and tannins (the red/purple pigments in fruit, and the polymerized forms of those in tea).  The worst things for setting the problem off were red cabbage, red wine, rowan jelly and strong tea.  (Beetroot is fine, the purple pigment in that is not an anthocyanin).

Once I cut my intake of those, and occasionally took gotu kola (which stimulates the thyroid and prods the detoxifying enzymes for those chemicals into doing their thing) the problem went away, with no change in my work posture or mouse usage.

Some kinds of beer and cider are high in tannin - consumption of those might correlate with melodeon playing.

(It's not an allergy - limited amounts are ok.  I'm probably heterozygous for the gene that codes an anthocyanin-degrading enzyme).

I first got the problem without recognizing it decades earlier, when I was drinking a lot of tea and found I was getting arthritis-like pains in my hips.  I've often wondered how many old people are suffering what they think is arthritis, actually caused by their tea intake.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: vof on January 20, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
I was one of the first people in the UK to use a mouse (actually a puck, on the magnetic bitpad of a Perq workstation).

Jack

Off-topic I know but was intrigued by your Perq reference. Wondered whether you had ICL/Dalkeith/ERCC connections but looking at your CV, I see it was via Glasgow Uni CS Dept. I never worked on Perq but spent most of the years 68-85 at ICL Bracknell working on VME/IDMS/SQL/CAFS. I'm 18 months older than you and I now find I have shoulder pain, probably caused by many years sat at computer terminals, but thankfully it does not yet hinder my very basic melodeon playing. I have cut down severely on my tea consumption recently so interested to read of your thoughts on the side effects of tannin. Not so happy that it implies I should cut down on red wine too though.  :(

Vince
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Winston Smith on January 20, 2017, 10:02:57 PM
That sounds a bit scary, Jack! Whilst I'm not completely T total, I drink an awful lot of it, it's just lovely! I've had lots of pains in the past few years which my doc puts down to arthritis (supported by x-ray) but maybe the tea isn't helping?
I don't play my melodeons for very long periods, so I don't think they're any problem.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 20, 2017, 11:07:26 PM


I first got the problem without recognizing it decades earlier, when I was drinking a lot of tea and found I was getting arthritis-like pains in my hips.  I've often wondered how many old people are suffering what they think is arthritis, actually caused by their tea intake.

I drink a lot of green herbal tea! Who knows.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Jack Campin on January 20, 2017, 11:21:46 PM
I don't think any herbal tea (mint, rooibos, maté...) has much tannin.  Real tea (green or brown) always does.  Red or purple fruit teas like blackcurrant will contain anthocyanins, though not an enormous amount.

If you cut the relevant drinks out, you'll know within a day if you have the same issue I did - it's not like some elimination diets where you have to wait for weeks before seeing results.  If you don't see a change, go back to your usual tea intake.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 21, 2017, 12:22:31 AM
And coffee is recently toted as an anti-inflammatory, and possibly very good. This contradicts findings from a few years ago.


Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: gettabettabox on January 21, 2017, 01:06:12 AM
Forget the drugs.....Swimming. Move your joints with supported assistance.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 21, 2017, 03:17:21 AM
Getabetta I agree 100% and I am trying to become more active for this reason.

Diet is important, but the body remains strong through exercise.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: ACE on January 21, 2017, 09:18:43 AM
When I used to work, I was a gardener, big strong arms etc. But hammering forks and spades into the ground for years gave me a lot of problems later on. I had to give up the melodeon for years because of the aches and pains. Then after tests it was found to be carpel tunnel problems. They slit my wrists ;) and after it all healed up no pains at all in my arms and shoulders. I would think this could be a common problem for box players especially some of those boxes with 'sharp' edges where the wrist connects. I only had the tingling in my fingers a few times so I did not connect it with the carpel tunnel syndrome. Worth getting checked out for it if you are having problems.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 21, 2017, 09:45:13 AM
Ace has a good point.
A friend is a one strapper, looong strap, plays vigorously and powerfully. About a year back he started getting a numb left arm and was being lined up for an op. Luckily it resolved before the surgery.
Though a relatively young chap, he's played like this since a very early age and pushing a box 3-5kg? With a right angle bend at the wrist is taking its toll.

Though it is a hugely debatable and personal choice, using 2 straps keeps the weight on both shoulders and usually keeps the body position away from extreme postures.
I looked at Bernard Loffets website, full of tips, in order to get a reasonable posture with the box, and tried to iron out any big bends in arm or wrist.
Poor posture can wreck the joints.
Q
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 22, 2017, 12:22:34 AM
Just as a follow up, my shoulders and neck feel better today.
I'm trying to keep good posture, and set up my workstations ergonomically.
Thanks for all the replies :)
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 22, 2017, 09:21:13 AM
Ah.... Fingers crossed .....
Good luck
Q
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Clive Williams on January 22, 2017, 10:32:28 AM
I work in IT, and had similar issues - the thing that worked for me, after much Alexander Technique stuff, was putting a forward slanting cushion on the chair. These days I don't bother with the cushion - I just use an office chair that allows me to slant forward slightly.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: fc diato on January 22, 2017, 01:04:28 PM
Another thing perhaps worth considering:  Do you wear glasses, ever? If so, you might consider eyeglasses with a prescription just for the computer.

As someone says, the causes can be difficult to pinpoint.  Last year, my shoulder pain got to the point where I couldn’t play much (or even reach for anything that was off to a side). Went to an amazing physiotherapist who said: “not your shoulder, it’s your neck.”  Simple exercises (twice a day though) and especially glasses just for the computer did the trick. A lot of people tend to let the head go forward and the chin tilt up when on the computer, as did I.  Eyeglasses just for computer work has changed everything, making good posture come more naturally.
Just a thought.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Clive Williams on January 22, 2017, 01:09:12 PM
Yes, ditto. I use glasses tuned for about 90cm focal length for screen use.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: playandteach on January 22, 2017, 01:19:28 PM
I have a similar problem when viewing students' compositions on screens, they think if they make it big I can see it, but I have to shove them out the way and take their seat to avoid weird postures. Table tennis cures most things.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: IanD on January 22, 2017, 02:05:40 PM
Melodeons which are badly designed ergonomically don't help either -- things like bass buttons too close to the edge so you have to "hook" your fingers back, treble buttons too close to the keyboard edge, keyboard at wrong angle, strap hangers in wrong position, sharp edges on bass end, thumb groove at wrong angle or sharp edge on treble end, treble button rows too close together of with too big a step between them, button spacing too large (or small)...

And there's no excuse for most or all of these, all it takes to fix them is a bit of thought by the maker with input from players -- Martyn Banks made all these changes when be built my Model 4, and it made it so much more comfortable to play. He did say nobody had ever pointed them out to him before...
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 22, 2017, 03:00:01 PM
The problem is not with melodeons, they are easy to standardise, but with people, who insist on coming in all different sizes and finger lengths, not to mention shapes. I found out what my melodeon was pivoting on when I play standing up...
My fingers are short relative to my hands, so Ian's too near is my too far. Concertinas, too, I struggle to reach all the accidentals on a 30b.
One lady I know can't easily reach both the air button and G/D/C basses, has to choose between playing the basses and running out of air. And she finds the sharp edge (pokerwork) a problem.
I really like the Hohner Club style finger groove, others I know hate them.

So it's a matter of personal bespoke melodeons.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: IanD on January 22, 2017, 03:07:13 PM
The problem is not with melodeons, they are easy to standardise, but with people, who insist on coming in all different sizes and finger lengths, not to mention shapes. I found out what my melodeon was pivoting on when I play standing up...
My fingers are short relative to my hands, so Ian's too near is my too far. Concertinas, too, I struggle to reach all the accidentals on a 30b.
One lady I know can't easily reach both the air button and G/D/C basses, has to choose between playing the basses and running out of air. And she finds the sharp edge (pokerwork) a problem.
I really like the Hohner Club style finger groove, others I know hate them.

So it's a matter of personal bespoke melodeons.
Indeed -- Martyn shaped the treble keyboard edge to exactly fit my thumb at the angle it's at when I'm playing ;-)
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dazbo on January 23, 2017, 01:08:39 PM
I had loads of arm, shoulder and hand problems from melodeon playing - almost stopped for a year or more.

I found all these helped:

When, standing use two (properly adjusted straps) otherwise you get terrible posture trying to hold the box properly - same with left hand strap too
Give your self regular breaks, put the box down don't just sling it over one of your shoulders - again hunching the shoulder to keep in place and using muscle to support the box rather than your skeleton
Sit to play as often as you can
Don't play as loud as you can (that's the trouble when you play for morris and have more drummers than melodeons)
Don't attack bellows direction changes quite as aggresively.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: stevejay on January 23, 2017, 05:49:34 PM
Thanks Darren,

I am doing various stretches and exercises to try to help myself. If I use music, I now make sure it is at a comfortable height on a stand, not looking down on my case. 

I am hoping to get this under control, the only good that came of it is empathy for others suffering pain.

Trying to learn to relax, not take everything to my heart, shoulders and neck.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: IanD on January 24, 2017, 12:29:42 PM
I had loads of arm, shoulder and hand problems from melodeon playing - almost stopped for a year or more.

I found all these helped:

When, standing use two (properly adjusted straps) otherwise you get terrible posture trying to hold the box properly - same with left hand strap too
Give your self regular breaks, put the box down don't just sling it over one of your shoulders - again hunching the shoulder to keep in place and using muscle to support the box rather than your skeleton
Sit to play as often as you can
Don't play as loud as you can (that's the trouble when you play for morris and have more drummers than melodeons)
Don't attack bellows direction changes quite as aggresively.

Glad those all work for you, but would argue with the "use two straps when standing (or sitting)" advice...

For many people (including me) a single strap works very well with no problems, and can actually be less hard work playing for dancing than two straps. If you hold the box like I do (fairly long strap, left hand well down, right hand braced against edge of keyboard) then you're using the stronger muscles in your arm to move the bellows in and out, with two straps you're mostly moving the bass end laterally which uses weaker muscles which tire more easily. For this to work well the strap hangers have to be positioned so that the treble end doesn't try and rotate when you  push and pull, which is often not the case (often too close to rear edge of case).

For other people (like you) two straps work better, which is also fine.

So I wouldn't say either (one strap or two) is inherently better, but whichever you choose it should be comfortable and work for you.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dazbo on January 24, 2017, 01:19:05 PM

Glad those all work for you, but would argue with the "use two straps when standing (or sitting)" advice...

For many people (including me) a single strap works very well with no problems, and can actually be less hard work playing for dancing than two straps. If you hold the box like I do (fairly long strap, left hand well down, right hand braced against edge of keyboard) then you're using the stronger muscles in your arm to move the bellows in and out, with two straps you're mostly moving the bass end laterally which uses weaker muscles which tire more easily. For this to work well the strap hangers have to be positioned so that the treble end doesn't try and rotate when you  push and pull, which is often not the case (often too close to rear edge of case).

For other people (like you) two straps work better, which is also fine.

So I wouldn't say either (one strap or two) is inherently better, but whichever you choose it should be comfortable and work for you.

Hi Ian, I've seen you play for Hammersmith on many occassions and I don't know how you hold your box like you do.  I always preferred playing for morris standing with one strap but it didn't do me any good so, reluctantly, I swapped to two.  With one strap I always seemed to have to hunch my right shoulder up to keep the strap in place.  I think the real source of the problem was always trying to play at maximum volume. 

I only ever use one strap when sitting unless the second one gets in the way in which case it's over my shoulder but not supporting the box.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: robotmay on January 24, 2017, 01:55:53 PM
I switched a lot between 1/2 straps and altered strap lengths until I settled on my current setup of a very long single strap. At Halsway Manor last year Saul Rose picked it up and quickly wondered how long my arms were ;D
I find it by far the most ergonomic, especially with a heavier box, strangely. I have the strap long enough that my right wrist/arm are straight, and overall it's very comfortable. I do however make sure I put the box down regularly and move about, as holding any heavy-ish weight on the front of your body is going to make you roll your shoulders a bit.

I think my strap length is still shorter than Ian from Carreg Las border morris, however, who has a great style (and probably very long arms): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtrvBiy75E

For this to work well the strap hangers have to be positioned so that the treble end doesn't try and rotate when you  push and pull, which is often not the case (often too close to rear edge of case).

I suspect when I fitted new brackets to my Erika that I set them a little further back than I should have, as that one does sometimes get away from me a little. I find the keyboard angle the biggest problem personally, and of my boxes the only one that I'd say is perfect is on my Lilium. My Pariselle, for example, has no notable angle to the keyboard and I find it much harder to play with gusto.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Elledeepee on January 24, 2017, 09:46:42 PM
If you've always done a lot of desk work then you may have over developed the trapezius muscles that are involved in shoulder shrugging movements and can be strained by too much forward stretch of the neck (such as reading a screen, peering at a music stand).  Desk/computer workers tend to develop a 'tortoise neck' which puts considerable strain on the upper back lower neck and can cause shoulder pain.   One way of counteracting this is to take regular breaks and stand with your back and heels against a wall and 'slide' the back of your head as high up the wall as it will go whilst tucking in your chin.  This corrects that tortoise neck posture and eases off the muscle.  When sitting looking at the screen do a few minutes of chin tucking to keep the neck elongated and upright and use a posture chair or cushion. 
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: IanD on January 24, 2017, 10:41:07 PM
I switched a lot between 1/2 straps and altered strap lengths until I settled on my current setup of a very long single strap. At Halsway Manor last year Saul Rose picked it up and quickly wondered how long my arms were ;D
I find it by far the most ergonomic, especially with a heavier box, strangely. I have the strap long enough that my right wrist/arm are straight, and overall it's very comfortable. I do however make sure I put the box down regularly and move about, as holding any heavy-ish weight on the front of your body is going to make you roll your shoulders a bit.

I think my strap length is still shorter than Ian from Carreg Las border morris, however, who has a great style (and probably very long arms): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtrvBiy75E

For this to work well the strap hangers have to be positioned so that the treble end doesn't try and rotate when you  push and pull, which is often not the case (often too close to rear edge of case).

I suspect when I fitted new brackets to my Erika that I set them a little further back than I should have, as that one does sometimes get away from me a little. I find the keyboard angle the biggest problem personally, and of my boxes the only one that I'd say is perfect is on my Lilium. My Pariselle, for example, has no notable angle to the keyboard and I find it much harder to play with gusto.

Keyboard angle is also a problem, with a lot of boxes it's not tilted back far enough (too close to a right angle). Coupled with a strap bracket too near the back, the result is that when you push the bellows the treble end swivels forwards (the keyboard moves away from your body), then on pull it swivels back -- the end result is the treble end continuously wobbling back and forth and making it very difficult to play.

If you can't tilt the keyboard back (another change I got Martyn to do when he made my Oakwood) then try moving the strap brackets forwards to reduce the tendency to swivel -- I've done this for several single-strap players (and on several of my boxes) and they invariably said it transformed how their box played.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: malcolmbebb on January 24, 2017, 11:54:44 PM
Keyboard angle is also a problem, with a lot of boxes it's not tilted back far enough (too close to a right angle). Coupled with a strap bracket too near the back, the result is that when you push the bellows the treble end swivels forwards (the keyboard moves away from your body), then on pull it swivels back -- the end result is the treble end continuously wobbling back and forth and making it very difficult to play.
This is an interesting point, and one I've been looking at recently. I was playing a tune I know well, solo, for Morris practice and I wanted to give it some welly. I found myself missing notes all over the place.
When I tried at home, I reached the conclusion it was the box moving - there exists a natural pivot point at the front of my person at present which doesn't help - and if I changed the angle of the box, the movement stopped and I didn't miss notes.
Apart from trying to remember that, I haven't done anything to resolve that issue but I might give it a bit more thought now.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: MarioP on November 25, 2018, 08:31:36 PM
Just pulled a neck muscle also this would explain single strap for my Corona III recently acquire was not a good choice and perhaps throwing lemons at that cat that craps in my backyard wasnt a smart choice either.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: rees on November 26, 2018, 12:13:17 AM
Whenever I encounter a melodeon that I wish to keep, e.g. my Oakwood 7 and my Castagnari Roma, I make the following modifications:
a) I ditch the Italian style pushy-inny air-button and fit a genuine Hohner replacement.
b) I sand off the back edge of the fingerboard to a comfortable curve as that's where my thumb sits (not in the specially designed groove!)
Of course, none of the above applies to Hohners which are ergonomically perfect.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Steve C. on November 26, 2018, 01:18:38 PM
Not the answer for everyone, but Dr. S. prescribes the Streb. Requires virtually no bellows movement if you set it up that way and same for buttons.  Very little resistance.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on November 26, 2018, 01:41:32 PM
Thanks Darren,

I am doing various stretches and exercises to try to help myself. If I use music, I now make sure it is at a comfortable height on a stand, not looking down on my case. 

I am hoping to get this under control, the only good that came of it is empathy for others suffering pain.

Trying to learn to relax, not take everything to my heart, shoulders and neck.

Exercise and stretching are good...as are:

1.   Regular professional massage.  I buy them in a "package" of 12 to get a rate that works out to about a 40% savings.

2.   A good chiropractor. 

3.  Proper footwear.  See again items 1 & 2.  Everything starts in the feet.

4.  Arnica, both in gel form for topical application and in homeopathic sub-lingual tablets.  Powerful anti-oxidant.

5.  Hot epsom salt soaks.  Hands, feet, elbows. 

6.  Finnish sauna.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Chris Rayner on November 26, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
I have recently bought a Wenger Nota chair.

https://www.wengercorp.com/chairs/nota-standard-chair.php (https://www.wengercorp.com/chairs/nota-standard-chair.php)

Which has transformed my seated posture.  It is designed and made in the USA, but there is an importer and distributor near Tonbridge Wells.  As you will see from this link, they have some available at a considerable discount.

https://www.blackcatmusic.co.uk/clearance-items.html (https://www.blackcatmusic.co.uk/clearance-items.html)

I regret to say that although my comfort and ease of practice have been improved any improvement in performance is almost undetectable.☹️

 
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on November 26, 2018, 02:18:05 PM
I have recently bought a Wenger Nota chair.

https://www.wengercorp.com/chairs/nota-standard-chair.php (https://www.wengercorp.com/chairs/nota-standard-chair.php)

Which has transformed my seated posture.  It is designed and made in the USA, but there is an importer and distributor near Tonbridge Wells.  As you will see from this link, they have some available at a considerable discount.

https://www.blackcatmusic.co.uk/clearance-items.html (https://www.blackcatmusic.co.uk/clearance-items.html)

I regret to say that although my comfort and ease of practice have been improved any improvement in performance is almost undetectable.☹️

I use these:  https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70404875/
Mine is the taller 29" model.  They were selling for $12 at the time. 

Folds for transport, great for the back.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Winston Smith on November 26, 2018, 02:56:45 PM
Mmmmmm? It's only tested to 100kgs! One or two of us are a touch heavier than that, Dick.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Chris Rayner on November 26, 2018, 05:30:58 PM
Mmmmmm? It's only tested to 100kgs! One or two of us are a touch heavier than that, Dick.

That struck me too, especially if you have a rather weighty instrument.  Not to mention a large accordion.😉
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on November 26, 2018, 06:12:27 PM
Mmmmmm? It's only tested to 100kgs! One or two of us are a touch heavier than that, Dick.

That struck me too, especially if you have a rather weighty instrument.  Not to mention a large accordion.😉

For $5 more you can get the "beefed up" model which is 29" tall and handles 110 kilos.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Steve C. on November 26, 2018, 06:36:19 PM
Chris, the Wenger chair is very interesting.  I often have wondered if a chair was available that had a narrower back but regular width seat.  Local U has some and am going to ass-test this week.  Not sure which model. Thanks!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Graham Spencer on November 26, 2018, 07:35:04 PM
Mmmmmm? It's only tested to 100kgs! One or two of us are a touch heavier than that, Dick.

I used to be, but I had to lose some weight before a knee replacement a couple of years ago, and I'm delighted to say I've managed to avoid putting it back on. A steady 82Kg for the last 23 months - result!

Graham
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on November 26, 2018, 08:02:17 PM
Mmmmmm? It's only tested to 100kgs! One or two of us are a touch heavier than that, Dick.

I used to be, but I had to lose some weight before a knee replacement a couple of years ago, and I'm delighted to say I've managed to avoid putting it back on. A steady 82Kg for the last 23 months - result!

Graham

Congrats!  I have had great luck since cutting out wheat bread and opting for crisp rye flatbread for my ham and cheese snacks.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: george garside on November 26, 2018, 08:35:27 PM
apologies for furthering thread drift but I have lost over 30 lbs in 6 months by following the  Scandinavian Belly Fat programme by Berit Nordstrand.  not so much  diet but a change in eating on a long term basis . Book available on amazon etc'


Back on topic  whilst I have arthritis in my right shoulder it is not exacerbated by playing boxes be it a Lilly or a 96 bass hohner gaelic..  This may be because I sit or stand in an upright position with shoulders well back as 'on parade'.  Also the weight of the instrument is equally distributed between shoulders by using 2 carefully adjusted straps.

Many  players seem to play with a 'forward droop' stance which will put more pull &strain on the shoulder  which can also be compounded by bodily twisting about   if using a single longish strap and waving the bellows about all over the place.  The 'on parade' or standing to attendtion  with shoulders back puts the weight of the box  down towards the spine (or arse if you want it to go further!)  with absolutely no forward 'pull' on the shoulder as occurs if playing with the droops.


As to what to sit on  a normal straight back 'dining' chair is just fine.


many years ago my doctor sent me to a physiotherapist because of shoulder neck pain - she couldn't work out what was causing it   and the treatment didn't help' I asked her if it could be anything to do with box playing but she didn't understand what I was getting  t.  So for the next session I too a 96 bass box and demonstrated the playing thereof.  She swiftly saw the cause of the problem and recommended what I have written above.  I was around 50 at he time. NOw at 76  and playing  very regularly I still don't get shoulder/neck pain even after a couple of hours of playing,

Hope this os of some help to somebody?

george
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on November 26, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
George...

I find the seat height to be most critical for my lower back.  My chiropractor told me "no cushions or couches", just a good solid seat.  Being almost 6'2", I find the average dining room chair to be about 2" too short, causing my back to lock up when rising from the chair.  I have made prosthetic "body shims" out of 2" thick rigid pink foam insulating board for "my" chairs in the house and can easily fit one into my skweezbox case for a bit of insurance when going out to play.

It's amazing what a difference a couple of inches can make in changing the angle of your spine and hips when seated.  As to the diet thing, my acronym is cut out the C.R.A.P. 

Concentrated
Refined
And
Processed

Good health, good tunes and good fellowship through the holidays and beyond!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 27, 2018, 07:53:05 AM
Interesting stuff.
My mother in law came to stay a few years back and as a very elderly lady, we bought a shower stool for her.
It is a simple stool plastic top/aluminium legs that has adjustable legs. Push in the button, shove up/pull down the leg and it moves accordingly.
I've taken it over, adjusted it to the right height and most of my practice is done sat on this.
My two shoulder straps are adjusted to give maximum comfort at this height. It now fels like the best set-up for me when playing.

I concur with Dick in one of his recommendations. In the past if I have tweaked any muscle in my shoulder or back, I've got a good osteopath who have worked their magic, often with a good massage to pull out all the muscles knotted after years of mis-treating my frame. It's worth investing some money to keep the frame going.
my tuppence.....
Q
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: george garside on November 27, 2018, 09:58:21 AM
two well padded wide shoulder straps can help to spread the load rather than 'digging in' to one bit of the shulder.  I use two and a half inch on small 2 rows and three and a half inch on3 row gaelic.

george
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: MarioP on December 23, 2018, 08:45:23 AM
I have had all the pains mentioned here started doing burpies and its died out..
I do feel a sore left shoulder while playing fast bass but thats the tension while excitement that im keeping up...

How to do a burpie: https://youtu.be/JZQA08SlJnM
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Pearse Rossa on December 23, 2018, 10:15:04 AM
How to do a burpie: https://youtu.be/JZQA08SlJnM
That's my new year's resolution sorted...fifty of those first thing every morning!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Winston Smith on December 23, 2018, 10:31:33 AM
Pearce, you should be on the telly with cracks like that!
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Chris Rayner on December 23, 2018, 02:09:35 PM
How to do a burpie: https://youtu.be/JZQA08SlJnM

She seems to be making little chuffing sounds rather than burping.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: MarioP on December 25, 2018, 02:33:12 AM
How to do a burpie: https://youtu.be/JZQA08SlJnM
That's my new year's resolution sorted...fifty of those first thing every morning!
I've been able to reach the 60 a day... just start light my first instructor drove me to 40 all at once but it was brutal to the body.. so I went back solo and start with 5 a day, then slowly 10, 20, 30, 40 i'm up to 45... i don't mind skipping a day or two if Knees or back aches :D
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: MarioP on December 25, 2018, 02:36:01 AM
How to do a burpie: https://youtu.be/JZQA08SlJnM

She seems to be making little chuffing sounds rather than burping.
i shall say I don't do the jump after getting up (preventing knee pains here) for a nearly 300 pounder :D.. I chose her video for she doesn't lower her body as much as I was at the beginning causing some calvs pain instead slightly lower the body and then shoot the legs back ;)
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Peter Morris on January 29, 2019, 08:07:42 PM
Having a bad left arm has meant I had to move on from the "cool" melodeon playing of one strap when playing for Morris standing up, now I use two straps. Just had the op on the left shoulder, turned out the bone had grown so it impinged on the tendon, hence the pain when moving the arm, fascinating op I could watch it on a screen!!!
But when sitting down to play I now have all the weight of the box taken on the thighs and so now use just one strap again, well when I can get playing again.
Title: Re: Shoulder/Neck Pain
Post by: Dick Rees on January 29, 2019, 08:10:25 PM
Having a bad left arm has meant I had to move on from the "cool" melodeon playing of one strap when playing for Morris standing up, now I use two straps. Just had the op on the left shoulder, turned out the bone had grown so it impinged on the tendon, hence the pain when moving the arm, fascinating op I could watch it on a screen!!!
But when sitting down to play I now have all the weight of the box taken on the thighs and so now use just one strap again, well when I can get playing again.

Best wishes for a full recovery!  Try not to push the river...
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