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Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: Gary P Chapin on February 05, 2017, 11:04:19 PM

Title: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 05, 2017, 11:04:19 PM
Hello, I recently purchased an as new small accordion (organetto), and it has been playing fantastically and has been the joy of my life. Tonight in rehearsal two of the buttons on the melody side started to stick. It feels like the wood of the arms that the buttons are attached (sorry about the technical terms  :P ) are rubbing against the slot that the arm sits in. So, I wonder if the wood is swelling ... not that it should with super dry winter air going on. Or if it's sticking for another reason. Two pictures below. Any advice? I was actually planning to use this box at a gig on Saturday. Thank you!

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hvrxz8llmrjxxq1/20170205_173901.jpg?dl=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/38sxh98f07kuevx/20170205_173916.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: tirpous on February 05, 2017, 11:30:16 PM
If it's dry maybe the problem is the keys are warping.  If you have feeler gauges (or a slip of paper?) you could try to find if/where the key is rubbing against the keyboard. 
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Lester on February 05, 2017, 11:32:34 PM
Probably not the cause but I would have to snip off the bits of hot glue that bridge between buttons and over the rods.

Otherwise as tirpous said thin feeler gauge to clean out between the wooden levers and the casework may help.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: diatonix on February 06, 2017, 01:04:53 AM
What happened with those pallets??
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 06, 2017, 02:02:04 AM
Thanks, team.

Diatonix, could you be more specific.

Lester and Tirpous, what is a "thin feeler gauge" and what do I do once (if) I discover where the keys are sticking?

And if the keys are warping? What should I do about it?

Thanks
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 06, 2017, 07:54:49 AM
I've dealt with this kind of problem a number of times.  I've never had success with trying to fish in the cracks with a feeler gauge,  and using paper is only likely to make matters worse if the paper gets into a tight spot and bits get stuck there.

You could try a DRY lubricant down the sides of the levers, for example powdered talc, powdered graphite or powdered ptfe.

Ultimately the solution is to strip down the keyboard, check the every key moves easily on the axle, and ease any spots where there is evidence of wood rubbing against wood.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: sammypenn on February 06, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
 French chalks your man but only a little on a small art paint brush.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: diatonix on February 06, 2017, 10:01:47 AM
,
Diatonix, could you be more specific.,

Pallets seem to have been rather unprofessionally (re?)faced, aligned and glued.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: folkloristmark on February 06, 2017, 10:32:36 AM
check the springs they may have tiltedor be giving up. I would remove those glue bands. As an emergency fix you can tie an elastic bad or modelling balloon over the suspect pallot wire attatched to the ones either side this might help in deciding if its rubbing wood or dodgy springs. The key board is removed from inside . You should see two screws on the pallot face either side that old the key board on.To get in pull the four pins on the bellws frame.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: folkloristmark on February 06, 2017, 10:38:49 AM
to be clearer I say attatch to the pallot wires as this is non intrusive you could use drawing pins and anchor the bands?springs onto the pallot face.If I am correct there is a long pin that runs the whole length of the keyboard that anchors all the pivots in place. If its a real b....er then this is pulled from the right end and releases all the parts for dismantaling whatch out for springs dont snap the wire and go down that route when all else has failed its not that high tech but ha ho
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on February 06, 2017, 01:48:11 PM
I encountered this problem on my old XL/L/L Dino Baffetti D/G that I bought last year.

The offending buttons were very slightly more compressed than the others, allowing the wooden arms to be pushed deeper into the keyboard housing. Quick fix was a thin cardboard spacer between the felt washer and the arm to reduce travel. (Luckily the buttons were screw on).

Probably a better fix would be to replace the washers with a slightly thicker and more dense felt, but the quick fix would at least prove whether that was indeed the source of the problem, so worth considering.

Good luck.



Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: mselic on February 06, 2017, 10:32:18 PM
I'm having a similar problem on a few of the buttons on the wooden keyboard of my 1 row, 4-stop box. In my case, two of the buttons don't move as smoothly as they used to, but are still functional. Based on similar problems reported here over the years, it seems that wood swelling around the axle rod might be the culprit. The solutions presented involved disassembling the keyboard, removing the axle rod and carefully drilling out the pivot holes in the affected wooden keys, essentially widening them a *little* and allowing for smoother action. This is a process I have admittedly not had the courage to undertake myself yet, for fear of messing something up; a fear that is probably justified. Apologies if I don't quite have that right...perhaps the makers of one rows can chime in?

As far as the dry weather goes, I live in Quebec, not too far from you, and I'm not sure I'd call the weather in this part of the world dry! We get a damp cold around here and, although I heat with wood (which certainly dries out the air in the house), when I'm not around for a good portion of the day, the damp cold tends to sneak back into the house once again..my guess is that this was the cause of wood swell at my place.

Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 06, 2017, 11:02:58 PM
Two things:

First extreme dryness e.g. n centrally heated homes, can cause wood to distort just as much as high humidity.

Second - be very careful with the holes in the levers that the axle rod goes through.  The difference is minute between a good fit and over large holes.  Over large holes will give you a sloppy feeling action and pallets that can move sideways and not seal reliably.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: TomBom on February 07, 2017, 12:58:09 AM
I'd certainly not drill out the pivot holes. No chance to get a snug fit. Guess how I know ...
Pushing and pulling the axle rod through the lever arms might be enough.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: boxcall on February 07, 2017, 01:50:02 AM
I found on my box after taking it apart and checking to see if the lever would spin freely on the axle, then putting it back together it worked great. But then it happened again :(
I broke things down again ( much easier 2 time) I notice a slight roughness on axle in the area sticking. I found spinning the axle end for end worked for me. No problems since then.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: mselic on February 07, 2017, 04:21:07 AM
Thanks for the all the input regarding pivot holes!
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 07, 2017, 08:08:25 AM
I've often found roughness on the axle rod is the cause of sticking keys with wooden levers. Sometimes there are high spots that you can remove with a very fine file, sometimes polishing with a fine grade of steel wool is enough.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on February 07, 2017, 09:15:01 AM
I was noticing that, on some of the felt pads under the key buttons , there seems to be fraying. Perhaps some fibers liberated from the felts have become impacted in the slots which the levers move in and have increased friction in certains areas. If the binding is occurring  between axle and key levers, and if you could rotate the axle of the keys without pulling it, any rough spots on the axle might become burnished, and the wooden parts slightly reamed without dismantling. If you can grab the axle end, I would use a hand cranked " eggbeater" drill to spin the shaft. I would caution against enlarging the pivot holes.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Winston Smith on February 07, 2017, 09:34:04 AM
Obviously, I've no idea of the design of the lever/axle/bearing/mounting arrangement on a miniature Costalotti (mind you, I think I'd like to become acquainted!!!). But if it's anything like the old fashioned things which I've messed around with, then I would echo Psuggmog's "I would caution against enlarging the pivot holes", unless, that is, you are going to enlarge the main bearing holes and replace the axle too.
In which case, the record of my, eventually successful, labours might be useful to you:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,18507.msg226384.html#msg226384

I used gas welding rod, which is plated and would seem to negate the possibility of Theo's "high spots that you can remove with a very fine file" for the foreseeable future, as it has no unevenness or roughness about it.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 07, 2017, 02:59:43 PM
Thank you everyone. This has been fantastically helpful. For the nonce I have used Malcolm's advice of reducing the travel on the button so that the two wooden arms don't get set into the slot and stick. I've used dental rubber bands (for braces) and wrapped them under the buttons so that they act as the washers you describe would.

This is only temporary -- to get me through Saturday's gig. After that, I'm going to send it off to the Button Box because, like mselic, I lack courage.

I feel, in my heart of hearts, that this is a matter of the arms sitting inside their slots and warp occurring. You literally cannot see daylight between the arm and the slot.

Also, mselic is right: Maine is a poster child for damp, but I was talking about the central heating enviro of my home.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: boxcall on February 07, 2017, 05:08:02 PM
Glad you got the rig to save the gig! :)
If you were a little closer I'd help you,if you trust me. I'm in the other Rockport (motif #1)

I know that some use of powdered graphite is ok but I would note on my box the rough spots were where someone had use it on the keys that were sticking. I would think that if you had two solid surfaces where the power would slide against itself no problem but where it has the ability to get stuck in the wood and then grind against the axle? It is just a fine rock so it will grind.
I could be wrong the spots may have been there and then graphite was used.

Good luck
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 07, 2017, 05:23:34 PM

but where it has the ability to get stuck in the wood and then grind against the axle? It is just a fine rock so it will grind.


That is complete and utter hogwash.  Graphite is many many times softer than steel or even brass,  it is a superb lubricant and has no grinding properties at all. 
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: boxcall on February 07, 2017, 06:57:32 PM
Like I said "I could be wrong". but it appeared to have done something and only where the powder was?
All the other levers did not have powder residue and axle had no other areas of roughness.
Speaking of roughness ;)
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 07, 2017, 07:02:53 PM
The powder would presumably have been placed where the buttons were already sticking. So a consequence, not a cause of the sticking.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: gettabettabox on February 07, 2017, 07:22:01 PM
Like I said "I could be wrong". but it appeared to have done something and only where the powder was?
All the other levers did not have powder residue and axle had no other areas of roughness.
Speaking of roughness ;)

You have to mention... or recommend "oil" ... to really feel forum roughness. 
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Theo on February 07, 2017, 07:47:54 PM
Apologies for my grumpiness!  I've had to deal with a lot of web hosting problems over the past three weeks,  not just melnet, but my own sites too.  "Customer Service" seems like some sort of bad joke.  I *think* I've fixed the last problem today, so I will he wreathed in smiles from now on👍😀
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 07, 2017, 11:50:28 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  :||:
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 08, 2017, 09:02:19 AM

but where it has the ability to get stuck in the wood and then grind against the axle? It is just a fine rock so it will grind.


That is complete and utter hogwash.  Graphite is many many times softer than steel or even brass,  it is a superb lubricant and has no grinding properties at all.

Theo is quite right.
Graphite is very soft (between 1 and 2 on Mohs' scale of mineral hardness). The lubrication property of graphite is due to its macro-molecular structure of flat sheets consisting of tessellated hexagonal units of 6 carbon atoms. These sheets can easily slip over each other and give rise to the slipperiness of the graphite powder or flakes.

I think any perceived problem with graphite is where people use ground-up pencil 'lead' graphite, which is not pure graphite, but is mixed with a binding agent, usually clay of some sort. Harder grade pencils have a higher proportion of clay. The clay is harder than the graphite and tends to disrupt the sheet structure mentioned above and also binds to wood surfaces in the same way that a fine grit would.

Therefore you should use pure graphite powder as a lubricant, which is fortunately readily available through locksmiths' suppliers or good DIY shops.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 13, 2017, 04:04:16 PM
UPDATE: Now it's happening to other keys on the box. I'm thinking definitely warping because of cold/dry. I will be sending this off for repair. Will this box ever be healthy for performance for me?
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Winston Smith on February 13, 2017, 04:21:54 PM
I'm a "no=nothing", but if you believe the problem to be, indeed, "warping because of cold/dry" then why do you think that sending it away for repair is going to fix it?
Surely you need to sort out the environment where the box is kept/played? If that cannot be accomplished, then you're throwing good money after bad. Perhaps you're right, and the box will never be healthy for you in your current location?
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: boxcall on February 13, 2017, 04:53:20 PM
Dry weather would cause the hole in the lever to shrink slightly if the wood use for lever wasn't completely dry when made. No glue chair makers use this to their advantage spreaders are completely dry and legs are wet when holes are made and the chair is made, when the leg wood dries the hole shrinks which tightens around the spreader. Good for chairs not for melodeons (:)

So I would think a trip to repair shop would help.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: folkloristmark on February 13, 2017, 05:12:45 PM
If its spreading look to see if there is any movement of the whle keyboard. Either up or down because the tow inner screws are loose or worse there is a curve accross the key board end to end,were it is warped.Pull the bellows pins at the treble end detatch the end and you wiil see the srews. Careful theres a seal on the bellows ends. You should be able to see that. Most warped keyboards I have seen have been vintage and it is unlikely.If the angle of the board changes as in vintage boxes the a small degree of fettling may be needed. I doubt its that serious might just need tightening. If the long pin that holds the pallot action is bent that could be a problem its only like mechano  so you could have a go or send it off. Its probably not that serious but if you dont know what you are looking at can be disheartening. Good luck
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: folkloristmark on February 13, 2017, 05:42:27 PM
Hi gary just noticed you are in France. I am in Normondy St Sever for a while were are you? Would not be close??
Or looking at the website are you in Maine not close.Its the french interest
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 13, 2017, 08:14:39 PM
... if you believe the problem to be, indeed, "warping because of cold/dry" then why do you think that sending it away for repair is going to fix it?
My assumption was that it wouldn't keep warping. Just that it would warp because of new climate, then stop when it acclimates. I will send it out because, as much as I believe, I may very well be wrong, and my repair guy won't charge me if he can't fix it.

Its probably not that serious but if you dont know what you are looking at can be disheartening. Good luck

I hope so, and INDEED!
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Gary P Chapin on March 10, 2017, 04:44:19 PM
Let me share the end of this chapter.

After our exchange about the stuck buttons, the box kept getting worse. More and more buttons sticking. In the end, five were sticking. I arranged to ship it to the Button Box for a look. There was a waiting list. They called me this week and said they are ready and I should ship it. Today, while packing it up to send, I gave it a flourish, and realized it was working perfectly fine. Not only do the buttons not stick, they work completely freely. So I'm not sending it for repair, I will simply continue to observe and play the heck out of the thing while I have the opportunity.

So, this is extremely great news for me ... but I have to admit to bafflement. I can't even pretend to know what happened. Theories welcome.

Thanks everyone for your support!

Gary
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Grape Ape on March 10, 2017, 10:28:34 PM
Gnomes.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: boxcall on March 10, 2017, 11:01:08 PM
Bad dream? hopefully not a reoccurring one.
Title: Re: Stuck buttons. Help!
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 12, 2017, 12:50:43 AM
Let me share the end of this chapter.

 ... but I have to admit to bafflement. I can't even pretend to know what happened. Theories welcome.

Gary

Climate change (local, not global warming  :D )?
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