Melodeon.net Forums

Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 03:21:14 PM

Title: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 03:21:14 PM
I'm sitting here, morning of day 6 of learning, having had 5 days to practice so far and I have a few questions. I think I might keep adding more questions to this one thread... unless people think it best to start new threads as new questions arise? (So first, thoughts on that from mods?

But here are my several questions right now.

1. I flipped ahead this morning through the P&M method book for GC box. I'm only working on exercises 7-10 currently, but I was skimming through and I"m looking at exercise 31 and 32 here. I didn't take a picture, but exercise 31 is a natural minor scale in A from A to A two octaves. Top part of the music is what I'm accustomed to seeing - the notes on a staff. Underneath that are the fingering cues and below that are the rows C and below that G - representing the rows on the box. Exercise 32 Uses that scale to do an exercise, adding in bass notes/chords with the rhythm written in below all. This is teaching cross row playing which I do want to become proficient in.

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g80/melissa_sinclair2003/16683269_10154998317457579_940905110_n_zps4g9cce3e.jpg)

It is not obvious (with only 5 days practice) if I should keep using the staff as a guide where/what to play for notes, or if I should only be using that for knowing the rhythm and use the CG lines to actually know what notes to play. Like maybe I should be learning the buttons as 3-5 for C-G (C row) and 4-6 for C-G (G row) instead of just looking at them as C-G on the staff? So far I've been using the staff to follow notes. I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't be doing that? That I need to force myself to know that 8 on the G line is C and 6 on the C line is B? Maybe I should start the exercises over by learning the numbering, and only use the staff to know the rhythm? Advice for that?

2. Playing higher notes. It feels like I need more air, faster air to play higher notes, is this feeling true? When I do that (on both instruments I have) the bass then gets VERY loud while the high notes feel so light/weak. Any tricks to helping the balance feel better? I cannot imagine there is something, but I could be totally wrong.

3. Watching videos - even of the same players on different tunes, I see some pieces the player is essentially slapping the bass keys in faster pieces and gently pressing in slower pieces? Is it just for that player it's harder to control the hand to make a smoother/calmer movement (so you cannot hear the clack of keys) or is it a style of play?

4. And maybe I can find in a search, but are there books of GC simple tunes to practice/learn from that you would reccommend? (with accompanying CD would be ideal as I'm an auditory/visual learner).

I had another question too, but it escaped me.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 10, 2017, 03:46:48 PM
Just on your 1st point: knowing the staff notation but not where the notes are on the buttons doesn't really make sense as you will be able to read it but not play it. I'd say there is no need to be fluent in pitch notation but familiar enough to work it out quickly. It seems that you already have some notation skill so I'd focus on knowing where important notes are on the right hand. For example the A minor notes on the pull and the E minor notes on the push (etc eventually).
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 04:32:07 PM
Just on your 1st point: knowing the staff notation but not where the notes are on the buttons doesn't really make sense as you will be able to read it but not play it. I'd say there is no need to be fluent in pitch notation but familiar enough to work it out quickly. It seems that you already have some notation skill so I'd focus on knowing where important notes are on the right hand. For example the A minor notes on the pull and the E minor notes on the push (etc eventually).

Right... What I have been doing, and that could be totally wrong, is that when I see middle C, right how I know where that is on the row - top row, third button, Push. But I'm thinking of Middle C up to next C as:

CDEFGABC versus 33445566. I guess what I was trying to ask... should I stop thinking of them as lettered "notes" per se, and start thinking of them as numbered notes? Or should I really be learning both of them equally well. I have been completely ignoring the numbered notes.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: TomBom on February 10, 2017, 05:11:21 PM
I thought there are soundfiles to download for the M&P tutor books?
If so: maybe a good idea to stop thinking and try to learn from the recording.

Regarding the basses: maybe it's just the player (you) who notices any kind of imbalance. Might be different for a listener. Alternatively you could try to play the left hand more staccato. However, I think it's not easy (for a beginner) to play left hand staccato and right hand legato.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 10, 2017, 05:44:43 PM
I'm not now advising you but explaining a couple of options that a learner like me might consider. There are lots of ways for lots of people.
I wouldn't ever think of button numbers. I MIGHT consider numbers for degrees of the scale (e.g. for the G row notes G, B, D would be 1, 3, 5.) That would help me for learning On The Row locations and is a transferable piece of info on any row. This may help with learning note location for bellows direction.
However, the way I do approach it is to know that the note E, A, and C are roughly in the middle but that the E is followed by a different note then the A and C come together. I also know that the B feels like it is between the A and C but on the inside row.
I grew up in London and accepted that I knew the East End well, and I knew Marylebone well. Then I knew 2 ways to get between them. Gradually I found other routes. I think pockets of keyboard geography is also a common starting point. Eventually they join up.
Note familiarity is never a redundant skill.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: tom f on February 10, 2017, 06:23:31 PM
Hi Melissa,
The Milleret and Pignol series are excellent tutors but as you note are bit short of basic tunes.  I use M&P but also have Yann Dour's 'Accordeon Diatonique' series which have less exercises and more tunes.  At your stage I would recommend his 'Livre du Debutant' which has over 40 G/C tunes  ranging the very simple to the slightly more difficult.  The books come with a CD of the tunes to help you learn (or did when I got them) and are very user friendly.  These should be available from Yann Dour's website at www.editions-caruhel.com.  More expense I know but I think you'll find them worth the outlay.  Best wishes.
Tom
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 07:20:04 PM
I thought there are soundfiles to download for the M&P tutor books?
If so: maybe a good idea to stop thinking and try to learn from the recording.

They do, but it's exercises (mostly) and I want to supplement the exercises with some simple tunes made for the box. And you are making an assumption of how people learn music. Not everyone can learn easily by hearing it and then playing it. I "can" learn that was, but I would learn faster by hearing it and then seeing it written out as notes on a page (for the box) to get it from my head to my fingers faster/more efficiently. I've played music this way basically always, so it comes much easier for me. I don't know why I would want to struggle with just trying to pluck it from head without visual guidance. EVENTUALLY then, if I wanted to memorize it, I could so that I wouldn't need the sheet of paper.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 07:21:50 PM
I'm not now advising you but explaining a couple of options that a learner like me might consider. There are lots of ways for lots of people.
I wouldn't ever think of button numbers. I MIGHT consider numbers for degrees of the scale (e.g. for the G row notes G, B, D would be 1, 3, 5.) That would help me for learning On The Row locations and is a transferable piece of info on any row. This may help with learning note location for bellows direction.
However, the way I do approach it is to know that the note E, A, and C are roughly in the middle but that the E is followed by a different note then the A and C come together. I also know that the B feels like it is between the A and C but on the inside row.
I grew up in London and accepted that I knew the East End well, and I knew Marylebone well. Then I knew 2 ways to get between them. Gradually I found other routes. I think pockets of keyboard geography is also a common starting point. Eventually they join up.
Note familiarity is never a redundant skill.

This makes sense - whatever way gets you there is all the same in the end. And yes... I'm beginning to figure out where things are. I still need to look and count - for C row... starting G row in a day or two.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: stevejay on February 10, 2017, 08:00:46 PM
http://www.diato.org/tablat.htm

Pick one out, find it on youtube or listen to ones with an mp3.

Learning tab and using the music together is good, each brings something to the experience.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 08:04:27 PM
Hi Melissa,
The Milleret and Pignol series are excellent tutors but as you note are bit short of basic tunes.  I use M&P but also have Yann Dour's 'Accordeon Diatonique' series which have less exercises and more tunes.  At your stage I would recommend his 'Livre du Debutant' which has over 40 G/C tunes  ranging the very simple to the slightly more difficult.  The books come with a CD of the tunes to help you learn (or did when I got them) and are very user friendly.  These should be available from Yann Dour's website at www.editions-caruhel.com.  More expense I know but I think you'll find them worth the outlay.  Best wishes.
Tom

hmmm... that site is mostly in french and I don't speak French and I don't see that book, but I found it elsewhere, I think. This? http://www.atelierdupiano.fr/m%C3%A9thodes/294-pouillard-methode-de-piano-debutant.html
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 08:07:15 PM
http://www.diato.org/tablat.htm

Pick one out, find it on youtube or listen to ones with an mp3.

Learning tab and using the music together is good, each brings something to the experience.

Oh great! Thank you!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: TomBom on February 10, 2017, 08:32:18 PM
hmmm... that site is mostly in french and I don't speak French and I don't see that book, but I found it elsewhere, I think. This? http://www.atelierdupiano.fr/m%C3%A9thodes/294-pouillard-methode-de-piano-debutant.html (http://www.atelierdupiano.fr/m%C3%A9thodes/294-pouillard-methode-de-piano-debutant.html)
Yes, it is. On the other site: http://www.editions-caruhel.com/methodes (http://www.editions-caruhel.com/methodes)

Quote
And you are making an assumption of how people learn music. Not everyone can learn easily by hearing it and then playing it. I "can" learn that was, but I would learn faster by hearing it and then seeing it written out as notes on a page (for the box) to get it from my head to my fingers faster/more efficiently. I've played music this way basically always, so it comes much easier for me. I don't know why I would want to struggle with just trying to pluck it from head without visual guidance.
Ah, I see. I thought you prefer learning by ear. Combining notation and listening surely is quite efficient.
(BTW I used to played from sheet music exclusively for decades. The melodeon helped me to rely more on my ears).
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 10, 2017, 08:46:06 PM
Ah, I see. I thought you prefer learning by ear. Combining notation and listening surely is quite efficient.
(BTW I used to played from sheet music exclusively for decades. The melodeon helped me to rely more on my ears).

Well we will see if that happens or not.  ;D First I need to build a foundation. I have decided for now that the little break I take at work when I'm in the office, I pick up the liliput (CF) and try to play that by ear... kind of giving different skills a practice at different times. At home, for longer periods, I'll work on the methods book and written out music.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: tom f on February 10, 2017, 09:15:19 PM
Hi Melissa,
The Milleret and Pignol series are excellent tutors but as you note are bit short of basic tunes.  I use M&P but also have Yann Dour's 'Accordeon Diatonique' series which have less exercises and more tunes.  At your stage I would recommend his 'Livre du Debutant' which has over 40 G/C tunes  ranging the very simple to the slightly more difficult.  The books come with a CD of the tunes to help you learn (or did when I got them) and are very user friendly.  These should be available from Yann Dour's website at www.editions-caruhel.com.  More expense I know but I think you'll find them worth the outlay.  Best wishes.
Tom

That's the one.

hmmm... that site is mostly in french and I don't speak French and I don't see that book, but I found it elsewhere, I think. This? http://www.atelierdupiano.fr/m%C3%A9thodes/294-pouillard-methode-de-piano-debutant.html
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Randal Scott on February 11, 2017, 11:09:08 PM
For starting off, the melodeon really excels as an instrument suited to simply laying one's fingers upon the buttons, squeezing in/out whilst working them, and having a go at making a tune.  Unlike other instruments (ie, winds and strings requiring significant technical proficiency to even begin to render a beautiful sound), button accordians do a significant portion of that bit itself given the free reed emits sonority with just a bit of air 'cross it..  Try it and see - trust your intuition...the box may not only open itself to you, but through it perhaps even a whole realm of finding music within yourself at the mere thought or feel of it.  :) :|glug
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 11, 2017, 11:37:37 PM
That is deep. Tantric Box.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 12, 2017, 12:06:17 AM
For starting off, the melodeon really excels as an instrument suited to simply laying one's fingers upon the buttons, squeezing in/out whilst working them, and having a go at making a tune.  Unlike other instruments (ie, winds and strings requiring significant technical proficiency to even begin to render a beautiful sound), button accordians do a significant portion of that bit itself given the free reed emits sonority with just a bit of air 'cross it..  Try it and see - trust your intuition...the box may not only open itself to you, but through it perhaps even a whole realm of finding music within yourself at the mere thought or feel of it.  :) :|glug

Beautifully expressed. Well said - there is a lot of wisdom and truth here.

Sometimes there is a tendency to overthink all this business of button numbers, bellows direction, staff notation, etc. and what's needed is just to sit down and let the blimmin' box play what's in your head.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: AirTime on February 12, 2017, 12:11:19 AM
For starting off, the melodeon really excels as an instrument suited to simply laying one's fingers upon the buttons, squeezing in/out whilst working them, and having a go at making a tune.  Unlike other instruments (ie, winds and strings requiring significant technical proficiency to even begin to render a beautiful sound), button accordians do a significant portion of that bit itself given the free reed emits sonority with just a bit of air 'cross it..  Try it and see - trust your intuition...the box may not only open itself to you, but through it perhaps even a whole realm of finding music within yourself at the mere thought or feel of it.  :) :|glug

Absolutely! When I got my first box I spent my time creating tunes by pushing & pulling & exploring the buttons. This was before attempting to play any "real" tunes. The melodeon is uniquely suited to that approach IMO.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 12, 2017, 12:44:49 AM
Melissa: Regarding your difficulty with French, some browsers, eg Google's Chrome, are equipped to do a rough and not too inaccurate translation for you. I'm generally OK with French, but it will make sense of some of the more difficult languages for me.

Chris B.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 12, 2017, 02:29:57 AM
For starting off, the melodeon really excels as an instrument suited to simply laying one's fingers upon the buttons, squeezing in/out whilst working them, and having a go at making a tune.  Unlike other instruments (ie, winds and strings requiring significant technical proficiency to even begin to render a beautiful sound), button accordians do a significant portion of that bit itself given the free reed emits sonority with just a bit of air 'cross it..  Try it and see - trust your intuition...the box may not only open itself to you, but through it perhaps even a whole realm of finding music within yourself at the mere thought or feel of it.  :) :|glug

I do that too - I do a mix of different things, but when I really want to "know" what notes I'm playing too. I am doing some of the method book. Some of trying to play a tune I know. I made up a variation I know (but wrote it down so I want forget it.) but also yes, just pulling notes.

But I have to laugh about overthinking it... That is my nature - a planner, an organizer - with a creativity streak... married to an economist and actuary... we're a bit cerebral (especially my spouse).  ;D

But, yes, I think my background and the beating in from childhood onward that it's hard work and don't expect instant rewards!  So thank you... I'll add just piddling around on the thing too...  :|||:
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: 911377brian on February 12, 2017, 11:37:12 AM
Piddling around on the thing means something different this side of the pond Melissa...just saying like... :|bl
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: richard.fleming on February 12, 2017, 02:09:03 PM
Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on February 12, 2017, 02:26:36 PM
I tried to buy a tutor from Yann Door's website, and got totally lost. So won't be buying from that site.

Sir John
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 12, 2017, 03:18:54 PM
Melissa: Am I right in understanding your second paragraph as stating that you are a bigamist? I thought that this was only legal in Utah!  >:E
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 13, 2017, 08:07:09 PM
Piddling around on the thing means something different this side of the pond Melissa...just saying like... :|bl

Ha! Well - here is the online dictionary definition:

Piddle: to spend time in a wasteful, trifling, or ineffective way; dawdle (often followed by around): He wasted the day piddling around. 2. Informal. (especially of children and pets) to urinate.

I'm going to guess you were thinking second definition?  :P
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 13, 2017, 08:09:11 PM
Melissa: Am I right in understanding your second paragraph as stating that you are a bigamist? I thought that this was only legal in Utah!  >:E

I was a bit confused as you didn't quote the statement, but that my spouse is an actuary and economist? He is ONE man who has education and works as both... not two men - one being an actuary and one being an economist... no.  ;D  One spouse is plenty enough! (But I do love him dearly...and he's being fully supportive of this accordion madness)
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 13, 2017, 08:21:08 PM
Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive. I am looking for stress relief to my life. Music used to play that role for me. Writing plays that role for me (I've written blogs for an organization before and for my pleasure too). Finding community is a stress relief for me, as well, it is for most of us. It needs to be things I can do between obligations and I have never, ever had "one thing" that ticks all my boxes. We all spend our time where we need and want with leisure time. Right now, this is how I prefer to spend mine. And that hour a day with practicing is tops my body can handle anyway. I get elbow, hand pain if I do more. And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Gary P Chapin on February 13, 2017, 08:25:06 PM
Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive ... And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.

It may be presumptive and judgmental, but having kept an accordion blog since 2011, I completely identify. (It's funny cause its true). And, yes! Absolutely supposed to be fun. I found that when I used the box to procrastinate from actual work ... that was wonderful.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 14, 2017, 05:03:15 PM
Sorry Melissa, I understood you to say that you are married to an Actuary AND an Economist and I couldn't avoid being mischievous.  ;D
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 14, 2017, 05:18:16 PM
And I always have trouble copy/pasting on here somehow!  :|bl
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Jack Campin on February 14, 2017, 05:35:37 PM
Quote
I tried to buy a tutor from Yann Door's website, and got totally lost. So won't be buying from that site.

You mean Yann Dour.

As far as I can see, he doesn't have one.  There are pages about him on other sites which are probably what you found.

He does appear to be on Facebook, maybe that would work.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 14, 2017, 05:37:52 PM
No, he does have a site... someone linked it to me the other day. Let me see if I can find it and I'll edit this post and include it.

ETA... well, probably not his site? Seems this is the publisher's site. http://www.editions-caruhel.com/
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Jack Campin on February 14, 2017, 06:39:34 PM
Well done.  They look a bit expensive for what you get, though.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Roger Howard on February 14, 2017, 08:17:40 PM
It's no coincidence, though, that Yann Dour's méthode is so popular in France - it's clear, accessible and well thought out. Not my own favourite, but undooubtedly good.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: TomBom on February 14, 2017, 08:31:20 PM
Well done.  They look a bit expensive for what you get, though.
26 € for a tutur book including a CD - that's expensive?? Oh well ...
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Winston Smith on February 14, 2017, 10:29:59 PM
"26 € - that's expensive??"

I suppose it's all relative, isn't it? But it would seem expensive to me, as well. That's the sort of price I like to pay for melodeons!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 14, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Well done.  They look a bit expensive for what you get, though.
26 € for a tutur book including a CD - that's expensive?? Oh well ...

Getting a bit off topic with this comment, but it is interesting what prices things go for US and Europe. Books are relatively inexpensive in the US and the secondhand market is huge and strong. When a book is first published, it's pricey, but if it's in paperback, it's usually CHEAP. Wait a bit long for a top seller and it will start showing up in secondhand shops, ebay, and other used booksellers sometimes for as little as the cost of shipping.

Now this particular books is a specialty item with a CD, so you would never find that secondhand, but a quickly look on Amazon.com and some method books with CDs are available and they are $15 versus $25 USD, so yes, it doesn't "seem" expensive... but then that's because I think the US has that all a bit messed up (not compensating writers fairly).

Now, with that said, my husband is Croatian and we would buy kid books for our children when we would go to Croatia to visit. Because they are never published in huge amounts as there are only so many Croatian speakers, they were always so expensive. 90%of the kid's books we got in the US were secondhand and we paid $1-2 for, had to pay around $20 a book in Croatia and there was no secondhand books.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 15, 2017, 04:09:36 PM
Melissa: Somebody (I daren't call her an "old" friend) gave me a £20.00 Amazon Voucher, so I've put it to buying those two books that you were given by an anonymous giver. They are considerably cheaper than Yann's lovely books, but I think they will do the job for me.

Chris B.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 15, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
Melissa: Somebody (I daren't call her an "old" friend) gave me a £20.00 Amazon Voucher, so I've put it to buying those two books that you were given by an anonymous giver. They are considerably cheaper than Yann's lovely books, but I think they will do the job for me.

Chris B.

I'm looking forward to using those books too! I need to get to cross row play first (for the one), but that will be soon!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Jack Campin on February 15, 2017, 05:37:48 PM
Nearly everything on that site seems to be 26 euros.  Reasonable for a tutor book, a bit much for a collection of 20-odd tunes.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 15, 2017, 10:24:40 PM
New question and please excuse my ignorance all such things.

So... these two pieces are the first in the book  Pignol & Millert written this way. I thought it meant to only play right hand, but now listening to the tune on the digital CD, I can see I'm supposed to continue with the left hand throughout the piece. That is easy enough for the first piece as it's all the same two buttons.

But on the next piece, the waltz, it says "For this piece A (pull) and G (push) are used. Well that's not completely true. First Measure is AE row, 2nd-3rd measures GD row, 4th-5th measures AE row and  6th measure GD row.

The next line is void as is 3rd line. Again, I assumed it meant left hand stopped, but it didn't. So... am I supposed to follow the AE/GD/GD/AE/AE/GD the rest of the piece? Or know which one to start on based on the treble hand first note? AcK!

Oh, or wait... I'm supposed to be looking at the chord guide up top? of which they have never mentioned yet in the book? and it's the first time showing them in the book too. (I was thinking of those as Guitar guides, but Duh... this is not piano/guitar/choral music I so often see...


The exercises in this book are good, but it's not the best at explaining what is next. I suppose that is what having a hired teacher would be for.

I think I just answered my own question, but i'm going to leave it here in case someone else stumbles in the same place and is looking for an answer.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 15, 2017, 11:37:46 PM
Hard to see as you haven't included the full picture of the instructions. Firstly the numbers are either on the C row (inside row buttons) or G row (outside row buttons). Then there is an underline on the numbers. If it is underlined you pull on that button, not underlined - you push.
This is difficult for me as I have buttons in different places to most folk. But it is possible to play the G chord in either direction - so you might be directed to play it always on the push (except that when you play the A pull treble note, the chord will change automatically to the d chord on the pull). Or it might be (I can't remember what a normally set out C row looks like off hand) that you have a G melody note in both directions, and should think always of the melody G as a push (same thing I said earlier but focusing on the tune rather than the basses).
The A will be on the pull. The guidance is to use the chord notes (not just the chord symbols at the top) to judge direction - as well as the underline.
The only things you can be sure of:
D or d (bass or chord) will always be a pull.
A or a (bass or chord) will always be a pull.
C or C (bass or chord) will always be a push.
E or E (bass or chord) will always be a push.
F or f - can be in either direction - but same buttons.
G or g - can be in either direction - but different buttons.
If you want to show a more exact clip of the instruction (I haven't got book 1) then maybe I could be more helpful.
I don't understand your AE row comments.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: richard.fleming on February 16, 2017, 12:16:28 AM
Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive. I am looking for stress relief to my life. Music used to play that role for me. Writing plays that role for me (I've written blogs for an organization before and for my pleasure too). Finding community is a stress relief for me, as well, it is for most of us. It needs to be things I can do between obligations and I have never, ever had "one thing" that ticks all my boxes. We all spend our time where we need and want with leisure time. Right now, this is how I prefer to spend mine. And that hour a day with practicing is tops my body can handle anyway. I get elbow, hand pain if I do more. And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.
Well, I just meant that it's easy to divert sideways to avoid doing the difficult thing. I used to do housework when I was supposed to be translating, for example. But maybe music isn't the main thing for you.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 16, 2017, 01:27:55 AM
Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive. I am looking for stress relief to my life. Music used to play that role for me. Writing plays that role for me (I've written blogs for an organization before and for my pleasure too). Finding community is a stress relief for me, as well, it is for most of us. It needs to be things I can do between obligations and I have never, ever had "one thing" that ticks all my boxes. We all spend our time where we need and want with leisure time. Right now, this is how I prefer to spend mine. And that hour a day with practicing is tops my body can handle anyway. I get elbow, hand pain if I do more. And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.
Well, I just meant that it's easy to divert sideways to avoid doing the difficult thing. I used to do housework when I was supposed to be translating, for example. But maybe music isn't the main thing for you.

I'm probably saying it all wrong.  Here is more.  It sounds like in the direction I'm only play A and G, but you can see I also play d and e. So, should have written it differently. Then, you can see on the second line, it doesn't (meaning starting with 7th measure) it doesn't show what is being played in the left hand basses. So I was confused, but now I see that it aslo says the note/Chords above, Am, G.

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 16, 2017, 04:39:14 PM
It looks like all the A basses are on the pull (they have to be anyway, so this is redundant info) and all the G basses are on the push (they could be played in either direction so this is useful info).
You will have to reverse the bellows for some of the chords. I wouldn't worry too much, there's nothing deep going on, just an attempt to save you thinking about the G basses.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 16, 2017, 04:44:39 PM
It looks like all the A basses are on the pull (they have to be anyway, so this is redundant info) and all the G basses are on the push (they could be played in either direction so this is useful info).
You will have to reverse the bellows for some of the chords. I wouldn't worry too much, there's nothing deep going on, just an attempt to save you thinking about the G basses.

My confusion wasn't that. My confusion was that I didn't know if I should be playing on the Am or G since they didn't include the bass "lines" after the first line of music. Since the second and third lines of music are not repeats of the first line, I was at a loss - until I figured out that they wrote, for the first time. the Am and G above the staff what basses to play.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 16, 2017, 05:16:22 PM
Ah. Yes the pattern is just repeated above the stave once you've got the hang of it. Later on in the series they keep all the bass notes in as they specify exact note lengths to practice.
Sounds like it's going well.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Rob2Hook on February 19, 2017, 03:15:59 PM
Just curious, as your hubby is an actuary, does he also play an instrument?  There is often a close relationship between mathematics and music.  My Dad was an actuary (played piano).  My older brother plays piano and clarinet, I play the box.  Strangely my brother has been trying to venture into folk music, not entirely successful from my standpoint as he still wants to arrange it and play it with his classical partners,  He can't get to grips with all the dance music I play - but then I can't play classical on the box.

The point is, I like to listen to what he plays and vice versa, but I remember the pain of hearing him learn the clarinet or interminal repititions of phrasing on the piano.  I hope you get the home support you need, but do try to practice as much when no-one is around to hear it.

Rob.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 21, 2017, 02:54:54 AM
Just curious, as your hubby is an actuary, does he also play an instrument?  There is often a close relationship between mathematics and music. 

He has never played. I think because he grew up in former Yugoslavia (Croatia) that once his mom saw that he had no rhythm and couldn't sing on key that there was no point. He loves music though and knows/understands music theory as a math... he will talk about 1/3s 1/5s, etc in some mathetical terms while I look at him blankly... I did band and orchestra... no theory... just play the notes in front of me. Perhaps if we could meld our two brains together we might be something extraordinary for music.

My son (20) however is a mathy (he is double majoring in Math and Philosophy and is a computer guru - he is working as a software engineer for a company in Germany part-time while in University). He played piano as a kid and is starting again and played tuba in middle and high school and was quite good. He's also quite interested in my box!)

And yes, in my previous career I worked in university administration and the combo of math/science and music is quite common.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 21, 2017, 03:09:22 AM
OK, my life has been super duper busy - 14 hours of work Thursday, 10 hours Friday, free on Saturday (and I practiced an hour), worked 14 hours on Sunday and now on Monday I practiced an hour after spending some fun time outside with my family on this gorgeous long weekend. This is my life right now... and so far the music is a stress reliever, but man... I wish I was beyond being a beginner!!!
Anyway, I was practicing a new piece today in the Milleret and Pignol book after several exercises. The new has me playing in 2/4 and in basses, Cc or Gg as eighth notes. Right hand is mostly eighth and quarter notes, but has some 16th notes thrown in there too. Of course, that completely throws me off right not to have the 16th notes. I can play the right hand ok by itself (tried just once) but if I try to play with basses, I cannot deal with the 16th notes. Question is... for learning the rest of the piece, can I "skip" pretend the 16th notes don't exist while I get the rest of the piece down and then once I have the rest of it, then throw in 16th notes? Or is that not recommended?  Here is a recording (on violins), but you can here the 16th notes as pick-ups to the next measure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_WIfOhog20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_WIfOhog20)

Feeling a bit frustrated!!!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 21, 2017, 07:55:13 AM
....Right hand is mostly eighth and quarter notes, but has some 16th notes thrown in there too. Of course, that completely throws me off right not to have the 16th notes. I can play the right hand ok by itself (tried just once) but if I try to play with basses, I cannot deal with the 16th notes. Question is... for learning the rest of the piece, can I "skip" pretend the 16th notes don't exist while I get the rest of the piece down and then once I have the rest of it, then throw in 16th notes? Or is that not recommended?...
Two parts to this answer:

1. Yes, it is OK to 'adapt' a traditional tune which doesn't comfortably sit on a melodeon. This might be done, as in your case, by modifying or simplifying the rhythm a little bit so that it becomes easier. The important thing is to keep the rhythmic pulse going steady and true, including the basses/chords, through the modified section. However, you might want to consider this approach as a temporary fix because....

2. ... the key to playing awkward passages is to practice the tricky bits slowed right down. Reduce the tempo drastically if necessary, to a point where you can play it. Practice it at this speed, keeping an absolutely strict rhythm in both hands, and then gradually speed up until eventually you can play it at normal tempo. It takes some discipline to do this, and the process might take several days or even weeks, but if you approach it methodically it should come right. It is important to include the bits either side of the tricky section also at the slower tempos, so that you can get the awkward bit in context. Again, keep everything in strict rhythm; don't hurry through the easier bits and then slow down just for the tricky bits.

If you seem to be getting in a rut with part 2, sometimes it is good to leave the tune for a day or two and then come back to it after a break. You may well find that your playing has improved 'by itself' in the intervening period.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 21, 2017, 11:59:42 AM
In addition to Steve's advice - chunking the tune into small fragments, especially the bits you are finding hard is the most direct route to fixing a problem. If you can share an image of the fragment you are struggling with, I can demonstrate what I mean (assuming of course that I can play it).
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 21, 2017, 04:41:55 PM
Thanks all. Here is the music. It's not hard.. I'm just still in super beginner phase. I know I need to dissect it and learn it section by section, slowly, as close to correct rhythm as possible. My question was though, is it harder to learn/a mistake if I don't play the 16th notes on right hand while I figure out the rest of the piece? Or should I just try to learn it with the 16th notes from the beginning. The whole piece I will get with some practice, but knowing what order to try to do it is the unknown.


Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 21, 2017, 05:16:30 PM
I would accept that it is in a tutor because it aims at skill development.
Therefore I wouldn't try to bypass the skills needed.
I'll quickly show how I'd tackle it.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 21, 2017, 05:27:45 PM
Sorry, while I was recording it I realised that those notes are round the other way on my set up - so it will only confuse you. The point though is clearly that you learn to slip a bellows reversal in to get the change of pitch - therefore it is really worth working on that point.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 21, 2017, 05:50:23 PM
Now you have posted a scan of the written music, I can see where your problem lies: it is playing a steady oom-pah rhythm on the LH while playing a dotted rhythm on the 2nd beat of the RH. The second half of the bar in the RH cuts across the rhythm of the LH. This means you have to disconnect the LH and RH so that they can work independently.

The only way to get this sort of passage right is to (as mentioned before) practice both hands together very slowly and deliberately so that every note is is played in its proper place. What you should be aiming for at the Bar 'A'  is something like this:

RH: Taaaaaaaah  Taaaaaaa-te
LH: Om - pah      Om - pah

The 'te' of the dotted quaver-semiquaver pair comes after the 2nd LH 'pah'. That's the tricky bit: the tendency for beginners is to play the 'te' and the 'pah' simultaneously, which is not correct. It's rendered even more tricky because the 'te' is on the bellows reversal. Slow deliberate practice is the solution for this.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 21, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
Steve
One of us has misinterpreted this, most likely me for two reasons 1 - I have an odd set up, 2 - you are a more experienced player.
But in my eyes, it is not a LH / RH coordination issue, but a bellows reversal exercise (the pitch change finger can remain in place with no rhythmic movement).
I'm trying to upload what I imagine is the way I would tackle it. Except of course I'd play it across the rows in the same bellows direction because of my reversals.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on February 21, 2017, 09:55:33 PM
Here's probably far too long a video  (https://youtu.be/RKjMjjrTpPY)of how I practise that issue. It is really hard to stop oneself from playing on a bit, but repetition of fragments is the quickest route to skill building. Using the piece zoom in on areas for development is either boring or rewarding or both - depending on your appetite for it. I have a large appetite for this type of learning.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 22, 2017, 02:08:36 AM
Nice video Pete, but when playing the RH dotted quaver-semiquaver pair, your LH oom-pah rhythm is going at half-speed.

When following the written music/tablature exactly, there should be an 'oom' on the start of the dotted quaver and a (push) 'pah' just before the (pull) semiquaver. I think that is the bit which Melissa is finding tricky.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 22, 2017, 03:29:56 AM
You are both correct actually, the quick bellow reversal and the left hand one the last 16th note of the measure and the right hand the second to last 16th note. Basically it's all a mess.

Thanks so much for the video Playandteach. I watched it twice already - with earphones - trying not to make my spouse run away! :-)
Steve_freereeder is also correct, the untying of the hands is also tricky.

I will feel like I truly accomplished something if I ever can play that piece and hopefully someday I'll say to myself, "I thought that was hard?"
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 04:40:57 PM
Next question, as I keep working through the book. (What I do is I try to add a little every day, but also go back to older exercises to get better and better, faster and faster.) What this does, besides keeping me from getting bored, is it affirms that I am GETTING BETTER.

Anyway... this is what is in the next section. While all the exercises have examples to listen to, this does not. It introduces crochets - quavers... I can see the mark above the bass notes, but not how to do it. The exercises below and next pages at least don't use it either. Anyone know?

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Stiamh on February 24, 2017, 06:04:18 PM
It looks to me as though the little vertical mark, if that is what you are talking about, indicates where the bass or chord falls, in this case exactly on the beat. So in the last bar (measure) your first chord comes before the first quaver (eighth note), but still on the beat.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 06:15:05 PM
It looks to me as though the little vertical mark, if that is what you are talking about, indicates where the bass or chord falls, in this case exactly on the beat. So in the last bar (measure) your first chord comes before the first quaver (eighth note), but still on the beat.

OMG... thank you! I've never head an eighth note called a quaver before... I thought that mark was to make the bass "quaver"... shake, vibrato or something like that.. So weird they are mentioning it NOW when they added it in exercises like 3 pages before without any sort of introduction... WEIRD. But this clears a lot up in my confused mind.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Stiamh on February 24, 2017, 06:31:20 PM
Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 06:56:29 PM
Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?

Fascinating... So yes, Crochet... got it... quarter note.

And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 07:02:03 PM
Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?

And for what it's worth... UK language is way better - your swear words, your descriptive words... so much more imaginative, colorful and FUN! I thoroughly enjoy literature that use them. And HUMOR... My husband teases me mercilessly... I'm American, but nearly all my ancestry is German. And humor... not my strong suit, so when my husband CAN get me to laugh - which is random - can never be expected it tickles him endlessly because he can never predict what I find funny or not.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Stiamh on February 24, 2017, 07:28:37 PM
And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)

You're heading in the wrong direction...
quaver = 8th note
semiquaver = 16th note
demisemiquaver = 32nd note
hemidemisemiquaver = 64th note. Thankfully we don't use many of these in traditional tunes...

your whole note is our semibreve
the next in line (haven't looked up the US equivalent) is our breve (a French word meaning "brief", LOL. Perhaps it's the Brits who are heading in the wrong direction...)

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 07:38:18 PM
And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)

You're heading in the wrong direction...
quaver = 8th note
semiquaver = 16th note
demisemiquaver = 32nd note
hemidemisemiquaver = 64th note. Thankfully we don't use many of these in traditional tunes...

your whole note is our semibreve
the next in line (haven't looked up the US equivalent) is our breve (a French word meaning "brief", LOL. Perhaps it's the Brits who are heading in the wrong direction...)

Ha! now things make so much more sense and will confuse me less.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Walleye on February 24, 2017, 07:46:42 PM
One site you might check out is Coursera.org. Search for a free course from University of Edinburgh called, "Fundamentals of Music Theory".  The description follows:
 
" About this course: This course will introduce students to the theory of music, providing them with the skills needed to read and write Western music notation, as well as to understand, analyse, and listen informedly. It will cover material such as pitches and scales, intervals, clefs, rhythm, form, meter, phrases and cadences, and basic harmony.

This course covers the fundamentals of Western music theory, from the absolute basics to some more advanced concepts and, as such, is the perfect course for beginners and more experienced."

It goes a long way to explain things that aren't really taught in the melodeon tutors (quavers & crochets) and a whole lot more. The 6 weeks of lessons are broken up into several sections with the videos running 6-8 minutes followed by the same written material to review. You don't have to do it over six weeks, it could be shorter or longer as the material is always available.  Some of it gets pretty complicated and the quizzes at the end of each section are stimulating, sometimes difficult, but also facilitate learning. They can be repeated until you pass, if you want to, or skipped altogether. You can pay, I think $49 for a certificate at the end if you would like. Not sure what the certificate would be for other than hang on your wall.

I'm really learning a lot and find that it has helped me learn to follow some of the threads on MelNet with more understanding. When someone writes about "Dorian" or "minor melodic scale" I actually know what they're talking about. It's very cool!  Check it out when you have 10 minutes and don't feel like squeezing, I'm sure you'll learn a heck of a lot too.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Walleye on February 24, 2017, 08:37:44 PM
More information about the course "Fundamentals of Music Theory"  (maybe more than you want!) All the curricula with time of video for each.  I suppose you could also pick and choose.

Fundamentals of Music Theory from Coursera.org

Week 1
Pitches, Scales, Modes and Chords
 Introduction
 Musical Notes 10 min
 Octaves 10 min
 More on Scales 6 min
 Introduction to Chords 9 min
Primary Chords 4 min
Quiz: Lecture One 11 questions


Week 2
Keys, Minor Scales, Intervals and Clefs
Introduction 32 sec
Sharps & Flats 6 min
Keys and Key Signatures
Minor Keys 9 min
Intervals 6 min
Ledger Lines and Clefs 4 min
 Quiz: Lecture Two 10 questions


Week 3
Rhythm and Form
Rhythmic Duration 3 min
Rhythmic Duration
Tuplets 2 min
Ties & Dots 3 min
Meter 4 min
Anacrusis, Phrases, and Structure
Form 2 min
Quiz: Lecture Three 12 questions

Week 4
Harmony 1: Functional Harmony
Introduction 19 sec
Listening to Triads and Hearing the Key Note
Elaborating 6 min
Building 6 min
Building Triads
Harmonising 12 min
Summary 7 min
Quiz: Lecture Four 10 questions



Week 5
Harmony 2: Inversions, Cadences and Sequences
Introduction 31 sec
Chord Inversions 6 min
Cadence 4 min
Chord Names 3 min
Common Chord Progressions 7 min
Modulation 9 min
Modulations II 28 min
Quiz: Five 11 questions

Week 6
Final Exam (Parts 1 and 2)
Final Exam *** INSTRUCTIONS and link to music ***
Quiz: Final Exam (Part 1) 13 questions
Peer-graded Assignment: Final Exam (Part 2) 2h

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 09:49:13 PM
You know... they way they teach music in the US in schools is horrible. I mean, it's good they teach it and it gives opportunities to play or sing something, but it's all concentrated on playing the instrument in front of you. So, yes, you learn about the staff and the clefs and the notes and the rhythms. If you are "good" you practice scales and know how many flats and sharps are in a scale, but no real music theory. MANY students don't get introduced to theory until the decide to study music in university. First year of music at university is make or break students as it's really the first time that goes beyond "can you play".

Now, I think that the bigger scales in some areas now have classes beyond, band, orchestra and chorus, but most do not. Like, I think my son's high school had a music theory class for those who planned to study music in university.

So, for me - I'm all about treble clef and what a horn can play. I "understand" bass clef but since I rarely ever had to read it, it's not at the forefront. But when it comes to chords and minors and majors (besides knowing minor sounds sad), no idea. I could learn it, but how incomplete the music training is! If I ever would have picked up guitar or piano, I would have a better understanding.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Theo on February 25, 2017, 10:08:40 AM
Major/minor difference is a simple idea.  Three notes in a chord. In a minor chord the middle note is a half tone lower.  On a piano it's simple to see and play because the notes are laid out in sequence.  Not so on melodeon, so although music theory can be helpful it's not a big deal on melodeon. As others have said spend some time without books just picking out well known tunes and experimenting to find LH chords to fit.  The instrument looks after much of the theory for you because of the way the notes and chords are organised.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 18, 2017, 08:04:34 PM
OK, more questions. These are probably dumb questions, but I can't figure it out this afternoon.

So, the M&P book shows basses as bellow (top photo). The Sarek book I was given shows basses as follows (2nd picture). third picture shows the two side by side.

Does this mean tat in the M&P book there is a G/C basses button and a g/c chord button and assumes your instrument is like this (my Hohner is). And does the Sarek book assume that that those same buttons are C both direction of the bellows and c both directions of the bellows - but in different octaves?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 18, 2017, 08:08:19 PM
And another question of the Sarek book. The instructions at the front of the book (for bass melodies) point to play with this in mind for notation (top photo).

But I don't get it when it comes to practice. I just showed the first few measures to show how it's written clearly. It's for bass notes, but it has things written above the staff too which I don't get. When I try to play that... it doesn't sound right at all... but maybe it's not supposed to sound like Twinkle Twinkle 'exactly'...  Hints? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on March 18, 2017, 10:07:28 PM
I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.
The shapes are equivalent to bowing marks for string instruments - up bow, down bow. But for me it's against the intuitive interpretation of that - the upside down V is an upbow, but a pull bellows (feels like the sensible equivalent would be the other way round). The 3 sided square (just named one of my tunes that!) is a down bow, but here it is push bellows.
It also looks bizarrely as if the left hand fingers are counted from the little finger (1 - little finger -  for the GC basses, 2 - ring finger - for the GC  chords, 3 - middle finger - for the AE basses, 4 - index finger - for the AE basses) terribly counter intuitive.
Is that enough of an answer - have I missed the point?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 18, 2017, 11:00:57 PM
I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.
The shapes are equivalent to bowing marks for string instruments - up bow, down bow. But for me it's against the intuitive interpretation of that - the upside down V is an upbow, but a pull bellows (feels like the sensible equivalent would be the other way round). The 3 sided square (just named one of my tunes that!) is a down bow, but here it is push bellows.
It also looks bizarrely as if the left hand fingers are counted from the little finger (1 - little finger -  for the GC basses, 2 - ring finger - for the GC  chords, 3 - middle finger - for the AE basses, 4 - index finger - for the AE basses) terribly counter intuitive.
Is that enough of an answer - have I missed the point?

Ah yes the fingering was another question. So unbelievably unintuitive. Especially since the right hand fingering is opposite. 

I took the bellow marks to mean (for remembering) upside down V as open bellows and the other mark to show the box closed up. But yes, borrowing string symbols if you're a string player could be confusing. Good thing I'm a brass player.  ;D

Good to know about the probably misprint. It made no sense to me now to really learn how to recognize bass clef without using the "good boys do fine art" and "ACE-G" each and every time to just read the staff  (:) (:)
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 19, 2017, 12:18:20 AM
I've always used the 'down bow' symbol to represent bellows push and the 'up bow' symbol for pull, and I've noticed its use in a few tutor books

I find it intuitive, especially because the down bow is always a strong sound for string players and similarly for melodeon players, representing as it does, the strong tonic chord notes on the RH treble buttons obtained on the bellows push.

Also a down bow starts at the heel of the bow and similarly the bellows push is activated by pushing with the heel (base) of the LH palm/thumb. Similarly an up bow goes in the same direction as the top (back) of the hand, as does the bellows pull, being activated by tension against, and in the same direction as, the back of the hand.

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 19, 2017, 02:36:15 AM
I've always used the 'down bow' symbol to represent bellows push and the 'up bow' symbol for pull, and I've noticed its use in a few tutor books

I find it intuitive, especially because the down bow is always a strong sound for string players and similarly for melodeon players, representing as it does, the strong tonic chord notes on the RH treble buttons obtained on the bellows push.

Also a down bow starts at the heel of the bow and similarly the bellows push is activated by pushing with the heel (base) of the LH palm/thumb. Similarly an up bow goes in the same direction as the top (back) of the hand, as does the bellows pull, being activated by tension against, and in the same direction as, the back of the hand.

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd). The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Maggie on March 19, 2017, 07:34:47 AM
Hi Melissa.  I have been enjoying reading your posts and the replies given.  18 months ago I too started with the milleret/pignol méthode book.  Found it good, however for me, the tunes seemed to progress in difficulty a bit too quickly - they cover lots of necessary techniques, but I needed to consolidate between lessons. I wanted to spend more time learning and playing easy tunes before moving on to the next stage.
Trad magazine in France publish various music books and I bought the "hors série Accordéon Diatonique volume 1, 106 morceaux, by Jean-Michel Corgeron.  It came with 3cds.  All the tunes have the fingering written and they are graded for difficulty, from one star - easy.  Some lovely tunes in this collection. 
This is a link to the book, I am not sure if the cds are included or need to be ordered separately.  To be honest, I have hardly used the cds, I listen to the tunes played on YouTube.

http://www.librairieorfeo.com/claviers/accordeon/accordeon-diatonique/d-accordeon-diatonique--vol-1-tab-1-1000000011203-v.html

For the bass buttons, I was advised to use ring and middle fingers for c/g and f; middle and index for e/a and g/d.  It works for me; easier to reach the f button and keeps my thumb in a good position for the air button.

Bon courage!

Maggie  :|||:

Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 19, 2017, 07:48:29 AM

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd).
I'm not a string player either. We are both clarinettists (P&T a very fine professional player, I might add)

Quote
The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!

You have misunderstood the diagrams.

In the Sarek book, the numbers under the notes for the LH refer to the button numbers, not finger numbers. It is based on a standard eight button LH layout consisting of two rows of four buttons. Buttons are numbered from 1 to 4, where 1 is the nearest to the floor when playing and 4 is nearest the ceiling. Plain numbers refer to the outside row of buttons, numbers in a box refer to the inside row of buttons (i.e. nearest the bellows).

Similarly, as shown in the third photo of your earlier post, the numbering system for the RH side refers again to button numbers, not finger numbers. (how did you think they meant finger numbers when they go up to 11?). The numbering system is for a standard G/C layout with a third button start - i.e. the basic row scales of C and G start on the third button from the chin end. The buttons are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... starting from the chin or ceiling end, going towards floor. Plain numbers refer to the inside C row; numbers in a box refer to the outside G-row.

In both diagrams, the down bow and up bow symbols refer to bellows push and bellows pull respectively, as previously discussed.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 19, 2017, 08:11:10 AM
I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.

No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: george garside on March 19, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
I am getting confused!  are we talking about learning to play the box or learning  musical theory and the serious business of proper dot reading?   Although interesting I see them as two separate  chunks of learning, the former being box specific and the latter applying to the playing of any instrument.

Just a thought but Mellisa may find it helpful to concentrate more on getting the hang of the box , hopefully by ear!!, and  then if it suits best , concentrate on the theoretical stuff

george(http://>:E ;))
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 19, 2017, 08:24:43 AM
I am getting confused!  are we talking about learning to play the box or learning  musical theory and the serious business of proper dot reading?

It's neither really. It's simply to do with understanding of how button numbers and bellows directions are portrayed in a couple of tutor books. I notice that you have devised your own similar symbols and numbering system in your 'Crash Course for Beginners' book.  >:E

Quote
Just a thought but Mellisa may find it helpful to concentrate more on getting the hang of the box , hopefully by ear!!

I think she has already been advised previously to noodle around on the box and pick out simple folk tunes, nursery rhymes and hymn/carol tunes. How are you getting on with those Melissa?
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on March 19, 2017, 12:04:50 PM
I still think the left hand numbering system is weird as our fingers fall on them in index finger at the chin end, and we count the right hand buttons from the chin end too.
The down bow thing is for me conceptually that a down bow starts from a closed body position and we open up the arms - hands getting further apart as we extend and an up bow brings us back to a closed shape.
Also for me - with the French repertoire - the pull is the main direction of travel.
There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but if I had to assemble flat pack furniture with these instructions I might make a mess of it. I guess it doesn't really matter if you can get your head round it.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 19, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
I still think the left hand numbering system is weird as our fingers fall on them in index finger at the chin end, and we count the right hand buttons from the chin end too.

Anglo concertina numbering systems normally start from the lowest pitched end of the rows as no.1 (little finger). This is similar to the numbering system as described earlier for the LH side of the melodeon. Piano key numbering systems also start from the very lowest note on the keyboard as no.1. You don't start (for example) at no.1 on middle C and and increase the numbers both going down and up the keyboard!

Quote
The down bow thing is for me conceptually that a down bow starts from a closed body position and we open up the arms - hands getting further apart as we extend and an up bow brings us back to a closed shape.
Yes - I can see that sort of makes sense too. But for me and probably a good few others, it is the symbology of the down bow shape - its solid, strong square shape which is associated with a jolly good strong push.

Quote
Also for me - with the French repertoire - the pull is the main direction of travel.
Whereas in the 'English' way of playing up and down the rows, the push direction is the dominant one, combined with the block major chords/arpeggios available on the RH side on the push.

Quote
There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but if I had to assemble flat pack furniture with these instructions I might make a mess of it. I guess it doesn't really matter if you can get your head round it.
Yes - the psychology of our perception of the learning processes involved getting to grips with a diatonic push-pull instrument is interesting but perhaps a bit too academic to be of practical use. As you hint at, the most important thing is to understand what is meant by any particular system of notation and symbols.

OK - back to actually playing the bloody thing now.  ;D  :Ph
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Caroline on March 19, 2017, 06:47:25 PM
Several posts back Walleye mentioned Coursera.org and a course The Fundamentals of Music Theory.
I'd just like to say a thank you to him for mentioning this, I started today and already it's cleared some grey areas re theory.
Melissa do take a look but probably best to keep it separate from your study and playing of your instrument at this stage  (:)
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 19, 2017, 07:44:42 PM

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd).
I'm not a string player either. We are both clarinettists (P&T a very fine professional player, I might add)

Quote
The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!

You have misunderstood the diagrams.

In the Sarek book, the numbers under the notes for the LH refer to the button numbers, not finger numbers. It is based on a standard eight button LH layout consisting of two rows of four buttons. Buttons are numbered from 1 to 4, where 1 is the nearest to the floor when playing and 4 is nearest the ceiling. Plain numbers refer to the outside row of buttons, numbers in a box refer to the inside row of buttons (i.e. nearest the bellows).

Similarly, as shown in the third photo of your earlier post, the numbering system for the RH side refers again to button numbers, not finger numbers. (how did you think they meant finger numbers when they go up to 11?). The numbering system is for a standard G/C layout with a third button start - i.e. the basic row scales of C and G start on the third button from the chin end. The buttons are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... starting from the chin or ceiling end, going towards floor. Plain numbers refer to the inside C row; numbers in a box refer to the outside G-row.


I'm sorry... I didn't say it clearly... Meant  the one is  "pinkie side - working bottom up on the left hand. And the right hands is index finger down, starting at the top of the instrument and working downward. They go in opposite directions.


Saw later the Lowest to highest notes. I suppose that makes sense - though with chords, it's not as clear.
Melissa
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 19, 2017, 07:45:49 PM
Several posts back Walleye mentioned Coursera.org and a course The Fundamentals of Music Theory.
I'd just like to say a thank you to him for mentioning this, I started today and already it's cleared some grey areas re theory.
Melissa do take a look but probably best to keep it separate from your study and playing of your instrument at this stage  (:)

Good to know... Lovely there are so many resources!
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 19, 2017, 07:47:46 PM
Hi Melissa.  I have been enjoying reading your posts and the replies given.  18 months ago I too started with the milleret/pignol méthode book.  Found it good, however for me, the tunes seemed to progress in difficulty a bit too quickly - they cover lots of necessary techniques, but I needed to consolidate between lessons. I wanted to spend more time learning and playing easy tunes before moving on to the next stage.
Trad magazine in France publish various music books and I bought the "hors série Accordéon Diatonique volume 1, 106 morceaux, by Jean-Michel Corgeron.  It came with 3cds.  All the tunes have the fingering written and they are graded for difficulty, from one star - easy.  Some lovely tunes in this collection. 
This is a link to the book, I am not sure if the cds are included or need to be ordered separately.  To be honest, I have hardly used the cds, I listen to the tunes played on YouTube.

http://www.librairieorfeo.com/claviers/accordeon/accordeon-diatonique/d-accordeon-diatonique--vol-1-tab-1-1000000011203-v.html

For the bass buttons, I was advised to use ring and middle fingers for c/g and f; middle and index for e/a and g/d.  It works for me; easier to reach the f button and keeps my thumb in a good position for the air button.

Bon courage!

Maggie  :|||:

Thanks! I'll give it a look - as I agree it jumps pretty quickly with some boring, not so related exercises between lessons. Having more practice stuff between would be good.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Melissa Sinclair on March 19, 2017, 08:09:59 PM
I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.

No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.

I think he was responding to the chord/bass names in the photo. It says C Bass and c Chord both in and out on the bellows, just in different written octaves.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: playandteach on March 19, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
 I think it's fine to park the book for weeks at a time while you embed the techniques learnt by playing tunes. Or writing your own!
I also generally use the middle and index fingers of the left hand for the top bass and chords, and the ring and middle fingers for the bottom set of buttons. It's strange how the middle finger seems to know its job depending on which chord I'm playing. Totally organic. In very occasional pieces I might use my little finger, but I really have to make sure my hand is squarer to the box, and more through the strap.

Keep going. It's like life, before you know it you'll be looking back - and giving advice to others.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 20, 2017, 12:26:50 AM
No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.

I think he was responding to the chord/bass names in the photo. It says C Bass and c Chord both in and out on the bellows, just in different written octaves.

The notation in this example is rather idiosyncratic and potentially confusing in that the chords are shown symbolically as just a single note head instead of a two or three note chord. I've never seen another tutor book which uses such an odd system. I suspect the reason for this is that different manufacturers will voice (tune) the chords differently; some chords will be in root position (doh-mi-soh), others might be in 1st inversion (mi-soh-doh') or 2nd inversion (soh-doh'-mi'). There is not any particular consistency between one maker and another.

Unless the LH side is rhythmically complex, there is actually little or no need to notate bass or chords as notes on a stave. Because the notes are fixed in the instrument and hence unalterable, it is normally quite sufficient to indicate a bass note as an upper case letter e.g. 'C' and the chord in lower case e.g. 'c'. This convention is followed in a lot of tutor books and melodeon-specific sheet music.

Here (attached) is an example of a melodeon tune in CADB (http://diato.org/exptab2.htm) tablature for G/C melodeon from Bernard Loffet's excellent website resource of tunes in tablature (http://diato.org/tablat.htm).
P = push (poussé), T = pull (tiré)
RH buttons are numbered from the chin end; plain numbers are on the outside G-row, numbers with an apostrophe are on the inside C-row.
LH bass notes shown in upper case, chords in lower case.
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: nigelr on March 20, 2017, 10:51:19 AM
Unless the LH side is rhythmically complex, there is actually little or no need to notate bass or chords as notes on a stave. Because the notes are fixed in the instrument and hence unalterable, it is normally quite sufficient to indicate a bass note as an upper case letter e.g. 'C' and the chord in lower case e.g. 'c'. This convention is followed in a lot of tutor books and melodeon-specific sheet music.
Although a lot of lead sheets for non folk tunes (especially jazz) use capital letters for chords - so when I see "G", I instinctively think G major chord, not a bass note.  I can see the logic of the melodeon way, but equally to me, "G" is bigger as it has more notes in it, whereas "g" is only a single note.  However, I know this will probably be more confusing for others and is just something I need to deal with!! (:)
Title: Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 20, 2017, 12:53:59 PM
Although a lot of lead sheets for non folk tunes (especially jazz) use capital letters for chords - so when I see "G", I instinctively think G major chord, not a bass note.  I can see the logic of the melodeon way, but equally to me, "G" is bigger as it has more notes in it, whereas "g" is only a single note.  However, I know this will probably be more confusing for others and is just something I need to deal with!! (:)

Yes, you're quite right Nigel, in that chord symbols are normally upper case letters. But we're talking about melodeon tablature here, which is slightly different in its approach. I'm sure it is not too confusing really!  (:)
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal