Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Melissa Sinclair on February 24, 2017, 02:11:54 PM
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I'm not being impatient. I know it takes time and practice. I'm just wondering what people's experiences are. I am especially curious about adult learners - who didn't play a like instrument or piano ahead of time (as you learn to untie your hands in piano, concertina, etc).
If I practice 1-2 hours a day most days. Let's say 5-6 times a week, and you were to make a guess, how long would it take to play some tunes - like say... some tunes of the month here on Melnet?
I know everyone is different, but what is some ballpark? We were all new to this at one point. Hearing people's experiences would help me I think!
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The first songs are the hardest, and there is something to be said for perfecting 3 or 4 before moving on.
The skills you have obtained will now transfer to the other songs you are working on.
Try not to be too militaristic with yourself about the whole thing. A few minutes of focused practice a day helps.
I believe if you were to ask most players of any instrument what "stage" they are in, they'd agree they are always learning and perfecting.
It isn't a destination, but a journey as the cliché goes...
Focus on easier tunes that you like. There are LOTS of easy tunes, and if you don't want to go too crazy, stick with diatofiddle, the loffet site or a website you like. Print out a few tablatures/music, and digest them before you move on.
*****Honestly, one you are proficient at reading tablature, it becomes MUCH easier! I use the music, tablature and youtube in combination.
I know I got a lot better over time, and the steps were not always clear to myself. Not using a thumb strap and use of my thumb on the treble were milestones however.
Try to wean yourself of the tab/music whenever you can. After a while, use the tab/music to check yourself, but use your intuition. YouTube slows tunes to 1/2 speed so you can check yourself. Playing without paper is way more fun!
One last thing, stay loose in your body. When we try to learn a new skill, it can create tension in the body. Just stay loose and comfortable, otherwise you can cause pain.
Sorry this was sort of disjointed, but I tried to reflect on my path the best I could.
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I remember wondering such things when I started up, and Theo simply said ' it takes time.....' and it does!
Steve is quite right, enjoy the journey, sit back and squeeze away, it'll come ......
If you managed 1-2 hours a day most days of the week I suspect that is far more than most of us achieve so you should progress quickly.
My biggest problem for Tune of the Month was learning it within the month, or at least getting somewhere close so I could video it, but you can add to it any time after the month has finished should you want to.
I used to get frustrated because I was so much quicker at learning tunes on the concertina. I now have speeded up my learning immensely on melodeon and have also realised some tunes simply don't sink in whilst others get in the brain fairly quickly.
As with learning anything, the initial period of learning is hard and slow. Once you have basics under your belt you find progress speeds up.
Q
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We're all very different in our patterns and speeds of learning, or so it would seem.
I spent 40 years or so playing "with" the English concertina. (I say "with" because I never sought, let alone found, any help or instruction; it was more like a relatively expensive toy!) So coming to the melodeon was an entirely different experience for me.
Nevertheless, I found that I was able to get a tune out of the treble end straight away, it felt very intuitive. Although I still haven't much of a clue about the left hand and/or hand coordination, I can pick up lots of tunes on the right hand within a minute or so. It's only the actual control of my fingers which is a problem!!!
I envy people who can sight read the dots or ABC or whatever, but I'm essentially lazy so I'll never get around to that degree of learning at my age. Plodding on and playing what I enjoy most will probably suffice, I think. (In saying that, I might feel differently after attending the North East Playgroup in May, we'll see.)
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Don't beat yourself up if you can't achieve the 1-2 hour goal. Consistency is the most important thing even if some days it's only 15 minutes or so of practice. Also, over-practicing in the beginning may set yourself up for a lot of elbow and/or shoulder pain. I had to get a squeezy rubber doughnut and build up left arm strength before that resolved, when I started. Seems to be a common problem -- I found lots and lots of posts related to elbow and shoulder issues here.
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There are days I get an hour, some 15 minutes... some none at all, but I know myself VERY WELL, if I don't plan for it, it won't happen. My husband and I need to schedule dates or else we never go out...
Date night tomorrow night too!
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One year
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I was playing in folk clubs after about a year but only simple, basic tunes! I was 21 at the time, it would take longer if I was starting now (age 60).
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Joan has made a very good point - build up practicing slowly as you are also getting your muscles and joints working too.
Overdoing it might lead to joint problems, take it easy!
Q
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8 months.
I've just checked and I got my first box from Theo in Jan 2012 and did my first totm in August 2012. I had a background playing guitar for more than 30 years, occasionally professionally, although you could get away with a lower technical standard in punk rock bands, and I didn't start to read music 'til I picked up the box.
Steve
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I dislike the notion of spending an hour a day or whatever 'practicing' as it has a 'compulsory' 'must do' connotation!
I know its just playing with words but I encourage my students to 'play' as often and for as long as they can which has connotations of a pleasant activity that is enjoyable!
I also recommend keeping the box handy out of its case, perhaps covered with a towel to keep the dust out' so it can be picked up whilst waiting for the kettle to boil or whatever. Often the kettle has switched itself off long before playing has finished! I still sometimes pick up a box for a 'quick burst' and find myself 'enjoyably, playing an hour later.
the time it takes to get reasonably up is related to 2 things enthusiasm and perseverance neither being much use without the other! Using my book 'DG Melodeon a crash course for beginners' which is DG specific I would expect on the basis of perhaps 3 or 4 hours a week , possibly in small bites, the average person to be getting the hang of the thing in something like 12 weeks
For what its worth my book will work for other 2 row quint boxes eg CF or GC provided you deem or pretend it to be a DG box. In other words you follow the book but instead of the tunes coming out in D or G they will come out in C or F.or whatever.
george
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I dislike the notion of spending an hour a day or whatever 'practicing' as it has a 'compulsory' 'must do' connotation!
I want to make it clear (as it's not clear) that I don't time myself. I play until I'm tired, too frustrated or whatever. I don't have a clock on me and I don't check a clock. It just turns out, that it's usually about an hour that I've had enough. Sometimes it's 30 minutes one part of the day, another time of day it's another 30 minutes. This is not a chore and I don't want to make it one. But when I have the time, it averages to an hour almost always. At work if I were to play, it would need to "stop" before I'm ready to stop, because I cannot take a break for an hour ;D
For what its worth my book will work for other 2 row quint boxes eg CF or GC provided you deem or pretend it to be a DG box. In other words you follow the book but instead of the tunes coming out in D or G they will come out in C or F.or whatever.
How can this be really? I've wondered about this... aren't the half steps on different buttons? or maybe not? Haven't tested it yet!
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It's supposed to take 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything!! >:E Bob
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It's supposed to take 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything!! >:E Bob
I just read that yesterday which kind of led to this questions. It's amazing how everything rounds so nicely in "expert" opinion.
10,000 years to be an expert. 10 years to be an expert, an hour a day to make progress. walk 10,000 steps a day to be healthy, etc.
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It's been said before, boxes such as DG, GC, CF, BbEb that are 4 steps apart will transpose tunes because pressing the buttons and push/pull in the same set sequence will work across those boxes. The tune is merely played in another key.
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So..... If you take a look at a tutor book, they often start with simple tunes and by numbering buttons above the music dots on the page.
Say it's a tune for a DG box. If you pick up a CF box and press the same numbered buttons, the tube comes out in the C or F key.
It's the reason people develop MAD, and own them in different keys, cos pressing the same buttons on another box means the tune comes out the another key.
Q
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It took my about 6 years from my 22nd to be able to really play the things I want. ( I am now 31) this means that if I take the time and effort I can play most things I see on youtube or things I get on paper. Perfection is of course another thing, I have lots to learn on making my music dynamic.
That was the moment I really felt I won't have to play things just to learn to play.
As a sidenote, there were some years I didn't play a lot, and I definitely never had the time to play 2 hours 6 times a week. I can imagine going way quicker then, probably more like 2 or 3 years.
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It's been said before, boxes such as DG, GC, CF, BbEb that are 4 steps apart will transpose tunes because pressing the buttons and push/pull in the same set sequence will work across those boxes. The tune is merely played in another key.
.
So..... If you take a look at a tutor book, they often start with simple tunes and by numbering buttons above the music dots on the page.
Say it's a tune for a DG box. If you pick up a CF box and press the same numbered buttons, the tube comes out in the C or F key.
It's the reason people develop MAD, and own them in different keys, cos pressing the same buttons on another box means the tune comes out the another key.
Q
Oh I was thinking, getting it in the same note. as I look at the note on the page, but yes, if you are playing by which finger.
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For what its worth my book will work for other 2 row quint boxes eg CF or GC provided you deem or pretend it to be a DG box. In other words you follow the book but instead of the tunes coming out in D or G they will come out in C or F.or whatever.
How can this be really? I've wondered about this... aren't the half steps on different buttons? or maybe not? Haven't tested it yet!
It works because all the fourth-apart tuned instruments, D/G, C/F, G/C, A/D, etc. have the same layout of diatonic scale on each row of buttons. You can use the same fingering in the same position for a scale or tune on any of them and the tune will come out sounding just the same, except higher or lower in pitch.
It's like saxophone fingering: you can use the same fingering on any sized saxophone (or clarinet for that matter) and the tune will come out the same, but sounding at different pitches.
It's been said before, boxes such as DG, GC, CF, BbEb that are 4 steps apart will transpose tunes because pressing the buttons and push/pull in the same set sequence will work across those boxes. The tune is merely played in another key.
.
So..... If you take a look at a tutor book, they often start with simple tunes and by numbering buttons above the music dots on the page.
Say it's a tune for a DG box. If you pick up a CF box and press the same numbered buttons, the tube comes out in the C or F key.
It's the reason people develop MAD, and own them in different keys, cos pressing the same buttons on another box means the tune comes out the another key.
Q
Oh I was thinking, getting it in the same note. as I look at the note on the page, but yes, if you are playing by which finger.
I guess you are over-thinking this again. Treat the melodeon as a transposing instrument. If you are playing on a melodeon of different tuning other than the one in which the written music specifies, then forget trying to correlate the written note on the page with the actual pitch of the note which emerges from the instrument. Just use the indicated fingering; the tune will still come out sounding as 'the tune' but the actual pitch will be higher or lower, depending on the tuning of your instrument.
Overall, in crude terms, forget the bloody written music - chuck it away (or at least close the book). Play by ear: just pick up your box, push and pull the bellows and waggle your fingers on the buttons to play the tunes of your choice, regardless of what actual pitch they sound in. Use the basic home row layout of your instrument to play tunes in the easiest, most comfortable fingering position.
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Two things I notice is that like when you learn to drive, some things that were impossible yesterday become "duh" the next day (2nd to 3rd gear - eek!), and sometimes you just need time for the brain to absorb things. Which is my excuse for the non-practice days >:E but I honestly think is true. But definitely things click rather than gradually improve.
Also that point about some tunes go in no problem and others just feel like 2 steps back.
I'm not learning off tab, so what holds me back is decisions - do I want to do it this way or that way? (And then remembering what I decided!)
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"Overall, in crude terms, forget the bloody written music - chuck it away (or at least close the book). Play by ear: just pick up your box, push and pull the bellows and waggle your fingers on the buttons to play the tunes of your choice, regardless of what actual pitch they sound in. Use the basic home row layout of your instrument to play tunes in the easiest, most comfortable fingering position."
Hurrah!
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And those wonderful 'lightbulb' moments when a tune finally comes together !
For me it was about a year before tunes really started to flow, and not long after that I felt confident enough to play in public (wonder how it sounded !)A year or so after that I was playing for a Morris side, and started playing with a dance band. I was certainly practicing at least an hour a day in the first year - lots of repetition. I don't know if I have mastered the instrument yet (- it's only been forty years) - and work used to get in the way !
Every day and every new tune I attempt brings new challenges - and hearing and watching the tunes shared on the forum confirm I still have lots to learn.
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"Overall, in crude terms, forget the bloody written music - chuck it away (or at least close the book). Play by ear: just pick up your box, push and pull the bellows and waggle your fingers on the buttons to play the tunes of your choice, regardless of what actual pitch they sound in. Use the basic home row layout of your instrument to play tunes in the easiest, most comfortable fingering position."
Hurrah!
seconded! or should it be thirded!
george :||: :|glug
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It's supposed to take 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything!! >:E Bob
At an hour a day that's 27.47 years. So, just 21.47 to go. ;)
M
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A good 6 months to get my initial tunes playing 'automatically' and it was a year later that I was playing polkas with any sort of 'panache'. I had tried concertina previously
A lot of the issue is finding suitable repertoire, at the right sort of level. We could do with more tuition in melodeonism?
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I think one of the 'keys' to reaching a reasonable standard as quickly as possible ( and quickly varies very much from person to person) is to stick to a relatively small number of relatively simple tunes and to recycle them as vehicles for new or revisited bits of 'technique'. For many the temptation is to 'learn a new tune' in order to improve technique and this immediately creates two obstacles to learning rather than one if recycling a tune you can already play after a fashion!
There are ?players out there who claim to be able to 'play' x number of tunes when in reality the can just about play the right notes in something like the right order with little or no regard to rhythm (right and left hand) dynamics and phrasing which to me are the absolutely essential ingredients of good playing.
It can also help in the early stages to stick to tunes that are more or less hummable or whistleable rather than trying to get the hang of two things - playing the instrument and playing the tune!
Just as an example of a list of simple tunes my tutor book only contains only 10 well known tunes 2 of which are recycled to bring in new techniques'
the tunes used are Oh dear what can the matter be, Blaydon races, keel row, black velvet band, water of tyne, harvest home, winster gallop, davy knickknack + rattling bog and dawning of the day as a couple of spares at the end of the book. The book also contains reminders to go back to the beginning and polish the earlier tunes up a bit!
george
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Progress seems to go in 6 months chunks ... then you seem to hit a musical wall , playing and listening to the intricasies of what you can hear from better players and working out how to do it helps , as does going to a few good workshops and playing around better skilled musicians.
To get over the walls does not come with constant practice practice.. sometimes you have to walk away for a week or so and come back to it and then things make sense again.
Also i notice that mornings are great for progressing quicker rather than tired evenings which is useless when you work :-)
I always set a "hard tune" to aim for as well as standard stuff and that hard tune might take months to get but was definitely the next reward of satisfaction of improvement.
I've said on here before that i didn't play any instrument until starting melodeon aged 33 and that's harder than playing from a very young age but it doesn't stop you getting to quite a reasonable standard, pitfalls along the way are the realisation that what you listen to sometime come from different layout of rows / basses and you need to learn to fudge notes a bit. some of "our" youtubes are not instantly repeatable as we spend days getting them right before the recording captured them and then not playing them for a year or so makes them impossible again! hehe!
But do keep moving forward its worth it! ... i worked out and learnt a new tune yesterday and going to play it again today! so the next challenge is on the way. i'm now 23 years on from when i started and i still think about tunes pretty much every day! good luck and have fun! Derek (DTN)
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Best not to think about the 10,000 hours! Which it turns out is bunk anyways - thank goodness because the process is what should be fun. As DTN says, seems to move in 6 month chunks – but faster at the beginning. At the beginning, "getting somewhere" (ie: not where you were before - as opposed to "playing as well as DTN" or some such) is almost weekly.
Several people have mentioned this, but I’d like to stress it. Oddly, big jumps often happen after a break in playing (as little as three days, to several weeks …). Maybe someone can explain the psychological process, but it does seem that all that practice time benefits from decanting.
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I think one of the 'keys' to reaching a reasonable standard as quickly as possible (and quickly varies very much from person to person) is to stick to a relatively small number of relatively simple tunes and to recycle them as vehicles for new or revisited bits of 'technique'.
It can also help in the early stages to stick to tunes that are more or less hummable or whistleable rather than trying to get the hang of two things - playing the instrument and playing the tune!
george
Seconded!
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First time around, forty years ago, and on D/G, I spent five years getting no further than learning four multi-tune sets to play for a NW morris team. At the end of five years, and having had little time opportunity or guidance for practice, I was barely competent, but could play well enough for a good team to dance well to. I gave up.
Second time around, fifteen years ago, now on B/C and still learning, I'm surer than ever that the ultimate "somewhere" I'm heading for is an ever-receding target. After playing the B/C for a couple of years and doing a lot of practice, I'd got good enough to be asked to play in ceilidh bands. When I think back to how I played then, I'm astounded that I was asked, although the results seemed good enough at the time. I still play in bands and I still strive to improve. There's lots I can't do. I practice for fifteen or twenty hours a week. Most pros do at least forty.
I suppose that, for me, the first big "somewhere" to get to is the point at which you can play a thirty two bar tune three times through, entirely from memory without any significant mistakes or breaks, and in front of an audience, in a place other than the one where you normally practice.
The second "somehwere" is to do all of the above, but with a set of three or four tunes back-to-back, with all the expression and and however much or little ornamentation as you see fit or are able, and with enough lift and precision for people to be able to dance to.
After that it's about expanding repertoire, developing advanced technique, and applying artistry and taste to the point at which "somewhere" is a good place for you personally to be.
Other people will have different milestones. It doesn't really matter. Set your own goals and remember, it's about the journey, not the destination.
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It is strange that having a break does seem to have improved things when you come back to it. I started a little less than 5 years ago now and I practiced every single night for at least an hour. Then, a few months ago, I made the decision to have one night off per week and every time I am surprised by my improvement when I go back to it.
As regards "how long does it take before you are any good?" - I don't think you should think like that. It is not a race and neither is it competitive. You should be enjoying the journey, each little sign of improvement, each little bit of technique that you get under your belt. That's where the fun is, because you will never arrive at a point where you are satisfied, there will always be something new to learn, new tunes, new techniques. It's the process of learning that is so good and satisfying. Some people will take a year to play a simple tune, others will be rattling off some difficult piece in no time.
Just love the instrument, love the learning process and above all....love the music. You'll be just fine!
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Thanks all - maybe I'm sounding I'm militant with myself, but I absolutely am not. This is about STRESS RELIEF!!!
Like, I didn't practice yesterday. I hope to today. And yes, little mini breaks do result in jumps as our brains learn new things. And yes, I am keeping to learning just a few tunes. I try to add one new thing a day, but then go back and run through the 3-4 tunes (all SHORT) that were introduced in the last 3 weeks.
And curious - when you all say play by ear - do you already know tunes that are commonly played on melodeon? Most of these tunes are all new to my ear. It would mean learning the tune first, then figuring out where on the box it all is, how to do the basses, and then somehow keep all that in my head.
To me... that sound infinitely more complicated and time consuming to learn when I already know how to read music. When I've memorized music before, it was through reading it and then memorizing it by muscle memory... but always having the music to refresh my memory if it slips out of memory.
Maybe this is all backwards for most learning and maybe I'll regret following music, but it's what I'm doing for now.
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One of the phrases that has never made sense to me (along with 'Cheap at half the price') is 'If I were you...' because, presumably if anyone were me, they'd do exactly as I do, otherwise they wouldn't be me. The best we can say is, 'in a similar position to where you find yourself, this is what worked for me'.
The advice not to use music is excellent. But it doesn't work for me - I can't even remember how pieces that I wrote myself go.
If I were you... I'd try a bunch of things advised here, and find your own way of enjoying the learning process.
There will be long plateaus along the way, but then steep curves. The better you get the further apart and shallower the curves get.
Good luck, keep at it.
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Maybe I shouldn't say this but I think there is a bit of musical snobbery going on here. Of course, being able to read music is a huge advantage and will speed up your learning process no end. Just as Play and Teach says, you must find what is right for you.
I have read this article many times and I have found it to be very good and helpful. It may help you too: http://www.creativitypost.com/arts/the_most_valuable_lesson_i_learned_from_playing_the_violin
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It was about a year, for me.
I had a long term loan of a melodeon from a friend, and I was just noodling around on it for fun for about a year ... then I realized I was doing tunes. None of it felt like practice or work (the way playing the flute had, for me). It was must a good time, noodling around. That's how I knew this was the instrument for me.
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Maybe I shouldn't say this but I think there is a bit of musical snobbery going on here. Of course, being able to read music is a huge advantage and will speed up your learning process no end. Just as Play and Teach says, you must find what is right for you.
I have read this article many times and I have found it to be very good and helpful. It may help you too: http://www.creativitypost.com/arts/the_most_valuable_lesson_i_learned_from_playing_the_violin
I found and read this article the other day and I realized I do not mindless practice... and I don't do it until my mind is numb. I actually like the way I'm doing it and it's been productive... yes, I have questions along the way, but no matter what way I learn, I would have questions!
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One of the phrases that has never made sense to me (along with 'Cheap at half the price') is 'If I were you...' because, presumably if anyone were me, they'd do exactly as I do, otherwise they wouldn't be me. The best we can say is, 'in a similar position to where you find yourself, this is what worked for me'.
The advice not to use music is excellent. But it doesn't work for me - I can't even remember how pieces that I wrote myself go.
If I were you... I'd try a bunch of things advised here, and find your own way of enjoying the learning process.
There will be long plateaus along the way, but then steep curves. The better you get the further apart and shallower the curves get.
Good luck, keep at it.
I am completely envious of people who can keep tunes in their head and their fingers. And it's funny. I have tunes running through my head ALL THE TIME... Right now it's Beauty and the Beast's, "Be Our Guest" as the staff I work with are doing a parody of it for a variety show in 2 weeks. I can sing out the rhythm and some words and all the notes of the song - maybe missing a verse. I could slowly plunk out the melody on the piano by ear, but it would be ever so much easier to follow the tune in my head while following along with sheet music.
I don't have that gene that can do jazz, let loose, be confident in relying on my brain. I would LOVE IT if I could.
And I totally need help from beyond noodling around to untie my two hands.
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Progress seems to go in 6 months chunks ... then you seem to hit a musical wall , playing and listening to the intricasies of what you can hear from better players and working out how to do it helps , as does going to a few good workshops and playing around better skilled musicians.
To get over the walls does not come with constant practice practice.. sometimes you have to walk away for a week or so and come back to it and then things make sense again.
Also i notice that mornings are great for progressing quicker rather than tired evenings which is useless when you work :-)
I always set a "hard tune" to aim for as well as standard stuff and that hard tune might take months to get but was definitely the next reward of satisfaction of improvement.
I've said on here before that i didn't play any instrument until starting melodeon aged 33 and that's harder than playing from a very young age but it doesn't stop you getting to quite a reasonable standard, pitfalls along the way are the realisation that what you listen to sometime come from different layout of rows / basses and you need to learn to fudge notes a bit. some of "our" youtubes are not instantly repeatable as we spend days getting them right before the recording captured them and then not playing them for a year or so makes them impossible again! hehe!
But do keep moving forward its worth it! ... i worked out and learnt a new tune yesterday and going to play it again today! so the next challenge is on the way. i'm now 23 years on from when i started and i still think about tunes pretty much every day! good luck and have fun! Derek (DTN)
Well, this is encouraging in a way... I'm ever so much older than 33 (I'm 47), but you were an adult learner coming to this - not a teen or early twenties, but a true adult... and you have a true gift for the feel of music- I know I won't ever get there... but it heartens me to know that didn't come from learning to play at age 5. And I should get to being at least musical which is fine enough. I don't need to be masterful.
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A lot of melodeon players came to it later in life. You are a relative youngster. Take heart.
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I was well into my 70's Melissa, now very nearly 80 will never be great but enjoy playing no end....
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And curious - when you all say play by ear - do you already know tunes that are commonly played on melodeon? Most of these tunes are all new to my ear. It would mean learning the tune first, then figuring out where on the box it all is, how to do the basses, and then somehow keep all that in my head.
Can you hum a tune? Mary had a little lamb? Jingle bells? Start with those.
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And curious - when you all say play by ear - do you already know tunes that are commonly played on melodeon? Most of these tunes are all new to my ear. It would mean learning the tune first, then figuring out where on the box it all is, how to do the basses, and then somehow keep all that in my head.
Can you hum a tune? Mary had a little lamb? Jingle bells? Start with those.
Another vote for nursery rhymes (Twinkle Twinkle Little Star) or Christmas carols, tunes you have known since you were a child.
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Right, I wouldn't concern myself with 'what others do/how long it took others to play.."
For me, I found that the box practically plays itself, but this after a lifetime of playing all kinds of different music on different instruments..
Still, if any instrument 'plays itself' ... it's the melodeon. *Squeeze in and out while fiddling with the buttons - see if a tune doesn't begin to emerge (maybe have a sip prior :|glug ..?)
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Does it matter how long it takes to "get somewhere" as long as you yourself are getting pleasure from the trip and not knowingly upsetting anyone as you go. Personally I started very late in life with music and will never be a great player, however during all of that time I have enjoyed myself and met some great people all of which have given freely of their time help and assistance (including the Sages of this site, many thanks). I am happy to just continue without bothering to see if an end is in site because even if there was and I reached it what would I find to do then. All the time you are happy and getting pleasure keep going but if you start to find things a chore then look for another hobby.
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Does it matter how long it takes to "get somewhere" as long as you yourself are getting pleasure from the trip and not knowingly upsetting anyone as you go. Personally I started very late in life with music and will never be a great player, however during all of that time I have enjoyed myself and met some great people all of which have given freely of their time help and assistance (including the Sages of this site, many thanks). I am happy to just continue without bothering to see if an end is in site because even if there was and I reached it what would I find to do then. All the time you are happy and getting pleasure keep going but if you start to find things a chore then look for another hobby.
This is true, but I practice with hopes some day I can play a piece that is pleasing to the ear. Maybe daftly thinking maybe someday my kids might want me to play a tune for them or something. :-)
That and the chorus director I work with has already gotten all excited because there is this solstice piece she has that she needs a squeeze box player. I better get that piece quick if I want any chance in being able to play it by December (basically not kidding! ;D )
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I'd also add that playing a piece that is pleasing to the ear (for me) starts with a piece that is pleasing to MY ear. Tunes that are "good for me" struggle to go in, never mind come out.
I gave up the flute when forced to play Hindemith - I just couldn't find music in the sea of notes. (Came back when he'd gone away). The joy of being an adult learner is you get to choose!
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I'm playing the Hindemith at the moment with my daughter. She actually even likes the slow movement. But the French flute repertoire is where we have the best times. The Incredible Hulk is also a long standing favourite!
She makes fantastic progress with short (supervised) dedicated practice, but still avoids the very things that show most improvement unless I go a long way out of my way to pester, encourage, bully, plead.
She has now run out of grades, so I'm wondering what to do to make her feel like she is making progress. Including spending potential melodeon money on a Webb headjoint.
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when the saints go marching in is a good tune to poke and prod out . the first note is on 3rd button form chin and only buttons 3, 4 & 5 are required . start with 3rd button push and then just 'poke and prod' to find the next note - then repeat the first two notes and poke and prod to find the 3rd note. Then repeat the first 3 notes and add the 4th et etc. Each time you add a note play the tune from the beginning so you don't forget the notes you have already found.
Practising 'on the row' scales also greatly facilitates developing the ability to 'think a tune and then play it'
george
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Having played the piano first I'm not really in the same boat. But can only wish you well. And say keep at it. Every day at least 15 minutes. And the next day will be a little easier. Bobby Shafto's super easy. Also What shall we do with the drunken sailor. But starting from scratch scales would be my choice. Before you can play a tune you have to have finger control. I struggle to get the time to practice before it's too late to wake the neighbors! My box is too loud! But during the day if they can't take 15 minutes it's there problem! If you want a break from squeezing learn to read music. It's really useful. I found the music for Snowy Monday on the net. Printed it out. And no I can't play it. Also got the music for Drunken sailor from Daddy Long Les. His music is good as it says pull and push in the right places! Which really helps when your starting. The kids arn't too encouraging. My daughter listened for 5 minutes before saying. That doesn't sound like anything Daddy.
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My daughter also says it's time for me to take something else up - 'why don't you just play the piano more?'
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My earliest tunes were things I "composed" myself, just noodling around on the box. It is something that comes very naturally on a melodeon. I was able to play complete tunes, reasonably competently, after about 6 months. The process was always enjoyable, although I do remember periods when I was dealing with pain or discomfort from playing too much, presumably with inappropriate technique. I have a feeling this is not too uncommon. It's interesting that now, after a little more than 5 years, I do not seem to have that problem.
The 10,000 hours thing seems relatively realistic to me. The implication is that most people can master a complex task if they devote enough time & practice to it. If an hour-a-day means 27 years, this would suggest playing 4 or 5 hours a day would cut the time down to 5 or 6 years. I suspect that this is what dedicated, obsessive young musicians do & why some of them can become extremely skilled by their mid-teens. Clearly some individuals have special abilities that lift their playing to another, higher level, however.
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Blimey, take a day out and 2 pages of wisdom appear!
As with DTN, the mornings at weekends are the best for me for practice. Coming home in the evenings after an early start at work sometimes mean I either practice for a few moments or just don't try as tiredness kicks in. The curse of the working melodeon player :-[
Yep, I'm another late comer so Melissa you're a spring chicken, don't let that worry you!
I went to a workshop yesterday with Ollie from this parish.
It was really good, thoroughly enjoyed it and brought back several nuggets of wisdom a couple might be of use to you at this moment in time ....
*Get to know your box - find out where all the notes are and what each button does.
When you start out, that takes time, but is invaluable stuff.
*chords - work out what a 3 note chord is. It means it helps to give you a clue as to which chord to accompany which melody note ( simply, those chords that might contain the melody note ).
Bit of a side track here, but thought it might help.
cheers
Q
off to apply some of Ollie's knowledge
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I fell in to the same line of thinking others did here, answering what I did as opposed to how long.
A lesson in answering the question :)
I am not really sure of the time, but I think after a year, you will be very comfortable with tab/music.
Get a tune in your head before you attempt it. You might spend breaks at work with headphones listening to a tune you want to work on. It will be more internalized, and easier to find the melody later. May shorten the learning curve.
Although you don't want to get exclusively reliant on tablature/music (same thing really music is tab), you now have a map to get to where you're going. Many of your favorite tunes have readily available tab, which is a good thing in my opinion. It's also a place to notate discoveries about fingerings, other chords that work, etc.
And sometimes in the spirit of minimalism, less is more. If I have too many new tunes to work on simultaneously, it can make me anxious. Like exercise, small gains are better than overdoing it in a short span of time.
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Pleasing to the ear is going to be tough.
To some, the melodeon will always be in the banjo/bagpipes/etc. category of instruments to make fun of, no matter how professonally played.
"To thine own self be true..."
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Get a tune in your head before you attempt it. You might spend breaks at work with headphones listening to a tune you want to work on. It will be more internalized, and easier to find the melody later. May shorten the learning curve.
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This is a good suggestion, and one I use if I need to learn a tune (or set of tunes). If you can't be playing then you can be listening.
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A mistake I often make is that I hear a tune and want to learn it cos it appeals to me.
I dive straight in with dots or Amazing Slowdowner and am learning a tune in my fingers before I have it in my head.
I must listen more.
To illustrate this I was in France on a family holiday and kept listening to a tune on my ipod, a real ear worm. I'd wake up at night in a thunderstorm and it would go round again. Driving back it was doing laps in my head as I drove.
When I got home and picked up the melodeon I could play 85% straight off, just some of twiddly bits to sort.
For some stupid reason I still try and play a tune before it's in my head......duh ::)
If you can't play ( at work or whatever ) or are just too tired, try and listen. It's all good learning habits.
Q
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I also wonder how our learning ability changes as we get older - maybe hours spent learning skills whilst young can count extra (but maybe the ability to focus and set goals can improve as we get older). Having spent a couple of hours noodling rather than practicing the tunes for a French/Breton session tomorrow I'm not certain that the latter applies to myself !
I admire those who can concentrate on a few tunes, and keep on repeating them to perfect. Obsession and dedication - yes- but we don't all learn in the same way(and can devote the time) and for me it's more important that we enjoy the learning process, and have fun with the instrument, rather than ending up demoralised by lack of progress.
And then there's the step to playing with other people (or for song accompaniment, or dancing), where learning can sometimes really begin !
(And lastly I fully agree with the points about listening and fixing tunes in the head...so important)
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I can't keep at a complex tune for ever. I find I loose incentive and get stale. I've also come to realise if I don't get obsessed by a tune, and get diverted whether noodling or a new tune pops up, when I come back to the original tune it has gone in a bit further whilst I've been away. No idea how that works but it does.
There's also something Squeezy said a while back, about constructive learning and how important things like noodling were to the creative process. Can't remember all of it but being creative/ unconstructed learning is as valid as formal 'learn this tune' type learning.
Q
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there is rather more to to playing a tune than just playing it from the dots or memory! There are many players of various instruments who claim to be able to play a long list of tunes but who do little more than belt out the right notes in the right order (ish!) . \musicality doesn't seem to enter into it but techniques including phrasing, rhythm, aand dynamics and most importantly 'playing the gaps' are the hallmark of a half decent player.
Thorough listening to recordings made by top hole players and absorbing not just the bare tune but the subtle nuances can be very helpful not only to by earists but also to dotists as there is so much that isn't shown on the page of dots.
trying to play along with experts CD's can also be very illuminating and extremely difficult whether it be Tony Hall or Jimmy Shand!
george
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My daughter also says it's time for me to take something else up - 'why don't you just play the piano more?'
Bit off topic. Sorry Melisa. But I can no longer play the Piano. Or at least not as I used to as I have a condition with the ligaments in my hand that causes them to contract. Simply put I can't reach octaves anymore. Not a problem with the Melodeon. I chose it over a Piano accordion as I love the sound and all the notes are in a compact area. Just I have to get used to a diatonic system. I have only been playing under two weeks and was attempting to play Snowy Monday at the time! Which is a bit ambitious. Am a bit better at Cock of the North, Bobby Shaftoe etc. Well at least you can tell what they are.
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With some seriousness, if someone were to ask me how to "get somewhere" with the melodeon, short of a tutor next door, in my limited experience I would say to get either George or Mally's book and follow it all the way through. Learn the basic techniques, learn a lot of tunes.
Find earworms (TOTM great place for it!!) Try and find some venue/people to play for fun (DC/Balt. should not be to hard).
IMHO, too much rote practicing, especially M&P (let me tell you, I have been there, still on vol.1 after years and years) is not bad for you, but is SLOW way to melodeon happiness.
Ask any of your Melnet melodeon heroes if they "ever" practice hours a day or worked their way through MP!
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I'm playing the Hindemith at the moment with my daughter. She actually even likes the slow movement.
Yes, I rather like the Hindemith also. I played it once in a chamber music club concert with my pianist friend - but about 40 years ago so I don't remember it very well!
But the French flute repertoire is where we have the best times.
Yes - I would guess you already know the Poulenc Sonata and the Fauré Fantaisie then. Are there any others that you particularly enjoy?
She has now run out of grades, so I'm wondering what to do to make her feel like she is making progress.
What does her teacher think? Could she start working towards a diploma? Learn the Prokofiev Sonata? Apply to the National Youth Orchestra?
Including spending potential melodeon money on a Webb headjoint.
I have a Webb headjoint on my Webb & Wessell flute and it is a wonderful headjoint. I've tried it on friends' flutes sometimes and it usually works much better than their own headjoints (:)
However, I've been told that Webb headjoints are actually very variable in quality. Make sure you get a good one! I saw that Just Flutes have one for sale - are you looking at that one?
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"players................who claim to be able to play a long list of tunes but who do little more than belt out the right notes in the right order (ish!)"
Mr Garside, we haven't even met, so how can you describe me so succinctly?
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My daughter is a reluctant player - she'd rather dance - so NYO is out (and very competitive on the flute). The Webb is from a Webb and Wessell (is yours also stainless steel keywork?) that was played for many years by June Scott in the Philharmonia. She sat directly in front of me, so I know it's a good one. June now plays on a Lafin. We've played the 1st movement of the Poulenc together, and are working on the Chaminade and Faure slowly now.
Diploma is a good possibility, but she's still 15 so there's time.
I guess (to keep this on topic) me daughter is at the stage where progress is not seen every month and that always makes it harder, so really the progress is more about learning new pieces than becoming a better player.
I got somewhere within a couple of months on the melodeon because of previous accordion experience (and other instruments of course) but then suffered repeatedly as it is impossible to maintain that speed of progress. It's a bit like a relationship - early progress is engaging, but the real skill is to keep the flame alive during the steady bits.
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Yes, stainless steel mechanism; it originally had synthetic pads but I had Stephen convert the keywork to take traditional skin pads in the end. It works very reliably with very little maintenance!
Back to melodeons, I agree about the decreasing rate of progress - it takes a lot of work now for me to get a noticeable improvement. On the positive side though, it's just so easy to pick the melodeon up for a quick play, and it's satisfying to be able to play a tune complete with harmony - so if I have a few moments free for playing, it often ends up being the melodeon that I turn to rather than flute or sax.
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Great attitude Melissa, something tells me you'll be fine. As has been said already right hand wise you'll pick up tunes quite quickly on the amount of time you are putting in your box. Left hand trickier. Just try to enjoy. I also put the box down when I reach the pain barrier rather than force myself to 'get it right!' and it is surprising how you 'Get it right' the next time you pick up the box.
As for 'Expert' well.... I hear the 10,000 quote but let us all remember:
An ex is a has been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure.
Ta Da!
Best of luck
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. I also put the box down when I reach the pain barrier rather than force myself to 'get it right!' and it is surprising how you 'Get it right' the next time you pick up the box.
'tis very true for most people. It seems like the brain sometimes needs time to 'programme' itself and quietly gets on with so doing even when we are asleep. If I am getting nowhere with a new tune I either forget it and play stuff I know or put the box away and leave the brain to do a bit of auto festering!
george
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Yes, others have said this and I find it - sometimes you leave a tune for a while, and when you return it's easier.
Saw an article somewhere suggesting that for older learners, short bursts with sleep in between works better.
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Auto festering ! I love that. Now we need a word to describe the ability to forget the wonderful variation, chord sequence (or in my case fingering) which one comes up with, from one hour to the next... :'(
Two steps forward, and unfortunately two back sometimes - but then mysteriously an even better way of playing a piece can arrive to cheer me up. Just searching on t'internet for different approaches to favourite tunes can lead to new inspiration - who says that's not the 'right' way to play a traditional tune...
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We often talk about leaving tunes for a while and the brain seems to digest, as said here - or George's priceless 'auto-festering'!.
I often wonder what is going on during the learning process. There is obviously much more than remembering which button to press when..... more of a psychological process. If only we knew what that was I really think we all could do with understanding this process.
As a side note, the other weekend a tune popped into my head from 20 odd years back, when then playing concertina. Now on melodeon it seems to be 85% there, just needs 'melodeon remembering'. How does that work?
The wonders of the mind...... quite baffling.
Q
being thoughtful for a change ;)
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probably in much the same way as the brain learns to operate the gob in childhood i.e. think it and speak it without sending conscious instrucctions to the gob. Provided you are fluent on an instrument it then becomes a question of think it and play it - or something like that???
george
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A aid to 'getting somewhere' on the box is , rather than thinking in terms of 'must learn a new tune' to think in terms of what can I do with a simple tune to make it suite a particular purpose rather than right notes in right order. as an example 'the Blaydon races'' can be played as a balad , march, two step or jig and can be adapted on the hoof into a waltz. Each requires different speed, phrasing and rhythm and a didfferent way of 'plying the gaps'.
Loch Lomond can be similary arsed about with and tunes like Maggie can be played legato as a balad, or rhythmically as a waltz or as a march or reel. Winster gallop can be played as a 6/8 instead of a 4/4 and even as a waltz.
As well as being interesting the above helps would be dance musicians to get the hang of adjusting the phrasing and rhythm of a tune to meet the requirements of a particular type of dance.
and its good fun!
george
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George,totally agree with your last post but then, as happened to me,I played a tune that I heard played for a fast line dance and wanted to play it the same way. The original song was a ballad. I was told wrong phrasing, wrong timing etc., etc..
So,now I play in the style I like and forget about rigidity of the dots and this enables me to pick up a tune a lot quicker.
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I'm really enjoying the dialogue. I had a long work day yesterday (though did practice about 45 minutes) and have a 12 hour day today in the office. I forgot the GC box at home, but I have the CF in the office and I'll try to sneak some time in between 5pm - 7pm before I have my evening.
It is "clicking" more and more. I'll blog about that later today over lunch or something.
But I have another question related to that... Do you ever "feel" that you are separating your hands. Like, all the pieces I'm learning now - 4-5 short simple tunes, are all with CcGg or AaaGgg, like that on the basses. RIght now I feel "play left and right" like this, and now left and right like that for the next beat, and the next. It doesn't feel like _"left hand like this"_ and _"right hand like this"_ and now put it together to play a tune. When I listen to these tunes, it feels like left right... but do you experienced players "feel" that... just curious.
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Some interesting comments on learning an instrument (http://www.dickhensold.com/playfaster.html)
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Melissa - yes your brain does somersaults at this stage,
Just keep plugging away. Sound like you're on a good learning curve at present. There will be a period soon where you stop thinking and start to get into the automatic zone where you stop thinking and just start doing.
Keep at it!
Q
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But I have another question related to that... Do you ever "feel" that you are separating your hands. Like, all the pieces I'm learning now - 4-5 short simple tunes, are all with CcGg or AaaGgg, like that on the basses. RIght now I feel "play left and right" like this, and now left and right like that for the next beat, and the next. It doesn't feel like _"left hand like this"_ and _"right hand like this"_ and now put it together to play a tune. When I listen to these tunes, it feels like left right... but do you experienced players "feel" that... just curious.
I for one rarely consider my hands separately. That is to say, I don't think, 'I am doing this with my left hand and doing this other thing with my right hand'. Even were I to try just playing the left hand of a tune, in my head I'd have to play the right hand at the same time.
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rigidity of the dots
Yes! I sometimes dig out dots for a tune I've not played before but know how "we" play it. The dots are just to give me a handle on things, so will probably approximate what's needed. But I play with a woman who insists on playing whatever's written down, even when it's not "our version" because that's what's written. Drives me nuts!
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indeed such individuals can be a veritable pain in the arse and inhibit the natural spontaneity of folk and trad music.
george
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.
But I have another question related to that... Do you ever "feel" that you are separating your hands. Like, all the pieces I'm learning now - 4-5 short simple tunes, are all with CcGg or AaaGgg, like that on the basses. RIght now I feel "play left and right" like this, and now left and right like that for the next beat, and the next. It doesn't feel like _"left hand like this"_ and _"right hand like this"_ and now put it together to play a tune. When I listen to these tunes, it feels like left right... but do you experienced players "feel" that... just curious.
Presumably by CcGg you are referring to what is commonly known as um pa- um pa type of rhythm alternating between bass and chord. Getting the left hand timing can be greatly facilitated by keeping time with your foot ( frowned on in classical circles but pretty normal amongst trad/folk musicians) Synchronise the bass with the foot - foot down = bass, foot up = chord. Just start playing the melody and tapping your foot to the rhythm that is an inherent pat of the tune and then bring in the left hand in time with the foot tapping.
Idealy you should be playing a short 'um' and a long 'pa' rather than equal ums and pas. The long 'um' occurs on and emphasis the off beat which is where the 'lift' for dancers of foot tappers comes from. Dancers come down by gravity without your aid and land on the 'UM' the musicians job is to waft them up again on the offbeat or PA.
george
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Yes! I sometimes dig out dots for a tune I've not played before but know how "we" play it. The dots are just to give me a handle on things, so will probably approximate what's needed. But I play with a woman who insists on playing whatever's written down, even when it's not "our version" because that's what's written. Drives me nuts!
Because it's a different skill set. Some people can only do "off the book", some can improvise using the book, some can't use the book at all. So, if it drives you nuts, you either need to write out for her "your version" or find a new partner. Unless her skills are still developing in coming off the book.
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It's not a skill thing - it's "ahem" a German thing. She can play it fine without, but as soon as dots appear one must only play that which is written ;)
Well probably, it's a "reverting to that which was originally drummed into her" thing, being classically educated and all.
The tyranny of little dabs of ink!!
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whilst playing from the dots or by ear are both totally valid ways of playing I think deep down many earists wish they could just put up a sheet of paper and play a tune that they don't know while many dotists wish they could just think a tune and play it.
Either way becoming realy good at both ways is difficult if not impossible for most of us. There are of course exeptions to this. For reasons I wont go into the lead violinist of a well known national orchestra came along to a pub session introduced himself and asked could he join in. We of course said yes but thought bloody hell! He played each and every tune which were completely randon aand varied. He just listened to the first time through then came in and not only played perfectly++ but with a very traditional 'fiddle' style. And he thoroughly enjoyed 'not having to bother with the dots'as he put it.
I also had a classicaly trained violinist in a band and initialy he asked for the dots and I said I haavn't got them for most tunes so just get on with it. His eyes lit up and he said ''you mean I can improvise'' and I replied feel free. He didn't realise until then that he was a good trad fiddler as well.
george
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It's not a skill thing - it's "ahem" a German thing. She can play it fine without, but as soon as dots appear one must only play that which is written ;)
Well probably, it's a "reverting to that which was originally drummed into her" thing, being classically educated and all.
The tyranny of little dabs of ink!!
I was wondering if your friend insisting on that sort of approach! 'It's written down so that's how it must be played!' :o
You will have to educate her to the concept that, in traditional music, any notation is always meant to be understood as the bare bones of the tune and is not to be taken pedantically as the only way to play it. If you need a bit of support from the classical world, you could always mention how baroque keyboard continuo players usually had just the hint of a bass line - perhaps with a figured bass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass) - and good players were expected to improvise around that harmonic framework.
It's worth reading John Kirkpatrick's article 'Medley Mania (http://www.johnkirkpatrick.co.uk/wr_MedleyMania.asp)' where, among other things, he argues for the freedom to find out all sorts of things which can be done with a tune.
Spontaneous improvisation over a set chordal sequence only comes after a tune has become absolutely automatic, and perhaps been played many, many times. It's wrong to try and force it by writing out contrived parts, even if they're only intended as a guide. You have to allow a tune time to sink in before you can open yourself up to its inherent possibilities. Then, gradually, you can find all sorts of turns and twiddles, all kinds of ways of bringing out the different aspects of a tune to best advantage.
Mind you, there was a somewhat opposite and prescribed approach taken by William Kimber (senior) when teaching morris tunes to his son William Kimber (junior) who became the famous Headington Morris anglo concertina player and Cecil Sharp's protegé. He (WK senior) said rather forcefully to WK junior: "These are the notes you play and you play no others!". But we won't dwell too much on that... ;)
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Yes, that was the Victorian understanding of music. Prior to that era, playing was much looser. Mozart and other composers expected their lead players, at least, to improvise on the theme given and some works had gaps in for the soloist to fill at his pleasure.
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It's not a skill thing - it's "ahem" a German thing. She can play it fine without, but as soon as dots appear one must only play that which is written ;)
Well probably, it's a "reverting to that which was originally drummed into her" thing, being classically educated and all.
The tyranny of little dabs of ink!!
Not uncommon in Germany:
I've been a member of a band playing for a yearly "Irish pub event" in our local (German) church.
We had quite a few discussions about which version of a tune we'd play and our leader handed out the dots. He wanted us to learn the 'correct' version - while I preferred listening and making variations ...
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A trombone player friend from a local brass band asked if he could come to our band practice nights and he being a good reader asked for the dots. Winster Gallop, cock of the north, Swedish masquerade or whatever sounded bloody awful on the trombone playing everynote to written length etc so I suggested he played it on the lines of a double bass sort of coming down the scale bum bum bum bum etc. It sounded absolutely great and he admitted to having been a jazz trombone player way back before joining brass bands . he was a great asset and aadded another dimension to the ceilidh band sound
george
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and to continue Steve's JK comment, he also advocates playing a tune for an hour to 'really get to know it'.
I've never done this, but my Bedlam mates still start to glaze over when remembering when they were playing with JK in an impromptu band and played Sir Roger de Coverly for over an hour...in shifts to allow for breaks. Apparently utterly awesome.
Funny 'ol thing this traditional stuff (:)
Q
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and to continue Steve's JK comment, he also advocates playing a tune for an hour to 'really get to know it'.
I've never done this, but my Bedlam mates still start to glaze over when remembering when they were playing with JK in an impromptu band and played Sir Roger de Coverly for over an hour...in shifts to allow for breaks. Apparently utterly awesome.
Funny 'ol thing this traditional stuff (:)
Q
From my memory, it was at least three hours ! It was for a very good charitable cause.
Speaking personally, as a Shropshire Bedlam at the time I did mix playing for most of the three hours, with a bit of dancing just to stretch the legs... ::)
It's one way of perfecting a tune...and making sure one never forgets it !
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.....ah yes of course. forgot it was on your watch!
I knew it was a long time, just couldn't remember the exact details. I think it was Stu who told me, with a manic grin on his face and said people were on and off stage as necessary for dancing, beer or just taking a break.
I certainly sounds a special event.
I remember someone ( Dave Townsend? ) talking about Thomas Hardy, who with his father would play at the Big House for events. The normal thing would be to play one tune for the dance, often longway sets and a dance lasted when the top couple ( the Master and Mistress of the house ) went all the way down the room and all the way back. Apparently 15-20 mins or more. Therefore the simple tune would have mutated by the end of the dance.
Another illustration of what JK was saying.
Q
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This just gets more and more interesting.
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We aim to please 8)
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This just gets more and more interesting.
Agreed. I really must get a copy of Georges book to go with the Mally book I already have. I find I still need to listen to a tune even I have the music. Cock of the North sounds very different played by the pipes and drums of the Gordon Highlanders. They play it rather slower and the result is very different from many players who dash it off with little thought. Slow I like. Gives me a chance.
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and to continue Steve's JK comment, he also advocates playing a tune for an hour to 'really get to know it'.
I've never done this, but my Bedlam mates still start to glaze over when remembering when they were playing with JK in an impromptu band and played Sir Roger de Coverly for over an hour...in shifts to allow for breaks. Apparently utterly awesome.
Funny 'ol thing this traditional stuff (:)
Q
From my memory, it was at least three hours ! It was for a very good charitable cause.
Speaking personally, as a Shropshire Bedlam at the time I did mix playing for most of the three hours, with a bit of dancing just to stretch the legs... ::)
It's one way of perfecting a tune...and making sure one never forgets it !
There is an awful lot to be said for playing a tune for ages, although I would ideally tend to go in half hour slots, and make sure I split it at least between two days, to let the magical powers of sleep do their work...
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This just gets more and more interesting.
Agreed. I really must get a copy of Georges book to go with the Mally book I already have. I find I still need to listen to a tune even I have the music. Cock of the North sounds very different played by the pipes and drums of the Gordon Highlanders. They play it rather slower and the result is very different from many players who dash it off with little thought. Slow I like. Gives me a chance.
I also find it rather frustrating when I listen to 'march' on the bagpipes and try to learn that tune, only to hear it played as a reel or jig
on melodeon/accordion. IMO, the originality of the tune is destroyed.
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Mind you, there was a somewhat opposite and prescribed approach taken by William Kimber (senior) when teaching morris tunes to his son William Kimber (junior) who became the famous Headington Morris anglo concertina player and Cecil Sharp's protegé. He (WK senior) said rather forcefully to WK junior: "These are the notes you play and you play no others!". But we won't dwell too much on that... ;)
Dan Worrall, in his book on the music of William Kimber makes a distinction between the melody which remained fixed and the accompaniment "Kimber rarely played any left hand part of the music exactly the same way twice". P.19.
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This just gets more and more interesting.
I also find it rather frustrating when I listen to 'march' on the bagpipes and try to learn that tune, only to hear it played as a reel or jig
on melodeon/accordion. IMO, the originality of the tune is destroyed.
as a pipe march cock of the north would be around 90bpm max whereas as a jig probably around 120. However its not just a question of playing it faster as that will sound crap, the phrasing and dynamics need to be aadjusted on the hoof and in that respect playing to the feet of the dancers has a lot to be said for it
george
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That and the chorus director I work with has already gotten all excited because there is this solstice piece she has that she needs a squeeze box player. I better get that piece quick if I want any chance in being able to play it by December (basically not kidding! ;D )
Going back to this point, I think it's quite important to have a goal to aim for, and this seems like a good place to start.
To illustrate this, I was playing guitar in a band and had learned a few tunes on the melodeon very badly to help out a Morris side. The band's melodeon player decided to leave, but would fulfil all the current bookings. Being a democratic outfit, we had a vote-get a new musician, or make me practice a lot and take over. The vote was 4-1 in favour of me practicing. I'll let you guess who the lazy person who didn't want to practice was.
Anyway, I started practicing for at least an hour a day, just on the tunes that our box player used. I hated it for several weeks, at least. I didn't think that I had the concentration or dedication any more to do this much focussed practice. But I had to do it, as I didn't want to let the others down, and we had professional obligations to fulfil.
Then I tried one of the Morris tunes again and found it was much easier and sounded better. After that, I started to enjoy practicing, and carried on. The rest of the band haven't found out I'm faking yet...
So, my feeling is, if you have something to aim for, go or it! It will give you a focus...
Cheers,
Guy
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I like the advise here as always.. Pick up and go!
Since i'm a drummer by nature i'm normally satisfied with improvisation with music.
but i've picked up a quest for clarification on the two voice and three voice instruments I like what I found here in the forum but wanted to see some other samples I came across this PDF.
can someone clarify if this applies to melodeons as well??
http://myweb.fsu.edu/nrogers/Handouts/Diatonic_Sequence_Handout.pdf
Also did not mean to high-jack this thread just felt it was the most appropriate do Advice if must be repost or place else where?
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What an interesting thread! I am about 8 months into my melodeon journey, having played guitar for about 45 years. I can read the dots if I really have to , but learning by ear via CDs and you tube is far better for me. I found it helpful to play at my local, vey tolerant, folk groups from about week two! Must have been a bit painful for them. I listen to Mally's brilliant CDs, especially the Morris ones that accompany his books, when driving. This helps get the tunes in my head. Playing to an audience is very very different, and gives me a real incentive to produce something more accurate and polished. Mally's books are good and are helping me add useful techniques like row crossing, creative bass lines etc.
One other thing...I have played harmonica for many years and the in out sequencing was helpful to me from day 1.
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I listen to Mally's brilliant CDs, especially the Morris ones that accompany his books, when driving.
Useful as Mally's books are, can I recommend Ashley Hutchins Morris On series of cds (plenty of examples to be found on youtube) to you. They'll broaden your view of what is possible in the world of Morris music. Plenty of more recent stuff there, as well. You might even think it's worth buying the cds. They make great music to drive to (IMHO, of course).
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I started late Aug '16 and have 6 tunes that I can play reasonably accurately and at a decent speed. Two well enough to play at Morris practice. That's practicing for at least 1-2 hour per week on average. I now find that when I learn a new one I am not having to work on which buttons representative which notes, I am just finding them. I am also working out which chords to use by ear. I taught myself to play bass end from the first time I learnt.
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Is it Norma to break a reed or two playing by ear the past two month..
My boxes are from the 50s but seem like they been worked on from looked relatively new.
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After a few years of frustrating starts and stops, from the time I started lessons I think it was three years before I felt comfortable with the instrument. "Comfortable" meaning I could take it off the shelf or out of its case and sit and play tune after tune for 45-60 minutes without thinking I had to "practice" something.
Now that I am at the level of comfort I find learning new tunes is less daunting and more enjoyable. I also should say that I started lessons when I was 60 years old, the old dog learning new tricks.
Ken
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Still learning
SJ :||: :||: :||: :||: :||: :|bl :||: :||: :||: :|bl :|bl
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Still learning
SJ :||: :||: :||: :||: :||: :|bl :||: :||: :||: :|bl :|bl
me too!
george ;)
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I have only recently mastered singing with the melodeon, and it has been a source of tremendous pleasure. All those previous years ... wasted on tunes! ;)
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I have only recently mastered singing with the melodeon, and it has been a source of tremendous pleasure. All those previous years ... wasted on tunes! ;)
Singing ? I can just about manage to talk whilst playing - and that's after forty years !
Each day I realise I've still lots to learn (or maybe I'm forgetting things and the fingers are getting creakier...)
J
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"I have only recently mastered singing with the melodeon, and it has been a source of tremendous pleasure. All those previous years ... wasted on tunes!"
It's been my goal too, but I'm afeared of trying, even on my own. I can't decide whether a mediocre voice might enhance mediocre playing, or whether my mediocre playing might be enhanced (or completely kerfuffled) by my mediocre voice!
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There's no mediocresy if you are happy with the end result 😂
Now if you are doing it in public just wear a red nose 😍 :||: :-* :|glug :o
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Mario, I sing in public and I also attempt to play in public, it's doing them both together (instead of consecutively) that I long for! By the way, red noses are only for reindeers and drunks, most definitely!
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We've had whole threads on this, but the key is to ignore most melodeon rules and play chords, a fairly flat "pavement" initially. Try to "voice" your chords within … an octave or so, ie learn and use the inversions. If you get it right, commonly only one finger will move from chord to chord. Or a pull to push change. Melodeons are magic.
You also need to be well in "comfort zone" for your voice. For me that is often Bb or C, or their minors, depending how the melody runs. So unless you have a lucky voice range a helper row is very useful.
After that voice and the song itself are boss. Any fancy flourishes on the box come later. Don't forget sus chords, melodeon is full of them 😉 they work in both major and minor modes. A "sus" often means keeping chord shape the same but change bass or direction: easy or what? Avoid playing tune in unison. Unless you are very good it is … boring frankly, and it gets into your brain and ruins your breath control.
If you get 'stuck' arranging a tune … simplify. No one will notice. IF a chord "isn't there" just 2 notes will often suffice, on occasion just the bass! Hope this helps. :|glug
[ed] corollary is that clever technique has very little part in this. It is just a different, and actually simpler way of playing the instrument. Everyone is entralled by the song anyway. Such is the human condition.
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Very interesting and helpful. Could you clarify the bit about not following the tune- do you mean don't play the melody notes, just the harmony chords?
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I started late Aug '16 and have 6 tunes that I can play reasonably accurately and at a decent speed. Two well enough to play at Morris practice. That's practicing for at least 1-2 hour per week on average...
Speaking for myself, I think I would have made slow progress if I limited my practice to a couple of hours a week. It's more like that a day. I spend, maybe, an hour on new stuff and about half an hour to an hour playing through tunes I already know, just for fun. Helps me remember. If they don't get played I lose them. I have forgotten many more than I remember
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Speaking for myself, I think I would have made slow progress if I limited my practice to a couple of hours a week. It's more like that a day.
I helps if you think of playing the box as the thing you do to procrastinate from other things. Suddenly, I have all time in the world to play.
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I have only recently mastered singing with the melodeon, and it has been a source of tremendous pleasure. All those previous years ... wasted on tunes! ;)
I felt I reached a milepost once I learned how to smile while playing... (:)
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Low punch there, Huw ;) But a very valid one ... ::)
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Bob Cann was a master of multi tasking. He could play one of his wonderful tunes, have a conversation wth the Saw player and call a dance all at the same time.
I think I'm thread drifting, sorry.
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I've followed this thread from the start and it has given me some interesting food for thought, but I've not been minded to contribute until now. Why now? Well, two things happened this week that, taken together, say a lot about the pleasures and frustrations of learning to play.
The first one was that I discovered that, after more than 20 years of trying and failing, I was suddenly able to play with reasonable fluency the descending run of four triplets in Bars 4 and 12 of Harvest Home. I first learnt this tune, within a few months of starting to play the melodeon and kept returning to it frequently over the years, but that run defeated me every time. I could play the tune if I replaced the triplets with a simple run down the scale, but, for me, that took away much of the charm of the tune. Then suddenly, a few days ago, that sequence of triplets was just there! How on earth did that happen?
In contrast to that, I was given just two days notice to learn a tune from scratch to play at a wedding last Saturday and it just fell under my fingers. I was totally unfamiliar with the tune, but was able to play it with a reasonable level of competence almost immediately. I don't think that this tune, Rory O' Moore, is intrinsically easier than Harvest Home, so why is it that some tunes just fall under the fingers and others can take 20-odd years to master? The workings of the human mind are too complex for me to fathom, but I think that, if it were possibly to answer this question, the path to improved playing would be smoothed for many of us.
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I discovered that, after more than 20 years of trying and failing, I was suddenly able to play with reasonable fluency the descending run of four triplets in Bars 4 and 12 of Harvest Home. I first learnt this tune, within a few months of starting to play the melodeon and kept returning to it frequently over the years, but that run defeated me every time. I could play the tune if I replaced the triplets with a simple run down the scale, but, for me, that took away much of the charm of the tune.
Ha, so there is hope for me! I just may have to wait 15 years. My "solution" so far was to keep playing Harvest Home on mandolin and banjo ...
It's Interesting that I'm not the only one despite years of practicing it.
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My thinking is that 'transferable skills' are so important. The fingering pattern or chord sequences learnt for a new tune, can help with the playing of lots of others - so I keep reminding myself to revisit half forgotten tunes. Finding tunes that are both enjoyable AND stretching is what I like, but my problem is I keep getting distracted by another great tune before I've mastered the last...aaagh ! More application required I reckon.
So I'm off to see what the fingers now make of Harvest Home - haven't played it for years. Thanks for the reminder Bob !
J
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;D it's taken me 7 years of faffing around on melodeons, lots of following George's advice from his workshops of leaving instruments around the house where you can pick them up and just have fun playing as the mood takes you ( + 30 odd years of concertina playing " transferable skills" ) and the feeling of utter panic and frantic practicing as the singer in the band decided 8 weeks ago that the Eb/Bb melodeon would be the best instrument to accompany him for our booked spots at Saltburn Festival :|||: :Ph
;D it went well .... and a great vote of thanks to Theo who fettled the Lilliput, lots of people commented the wonderful sound it has ;D
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Well done Anne! Its not just Theo's brilliant tuning by also your brilliant playing that made it go well!
george
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;D we did a WW1 set, starting with Adieu les Filles de mon pays on melodeon with a steady march beat on drum, building the volume up then fading to solo melodeon as if the men were marching into the distance and softly changing into Harvey Andrew's Margarita with our singer coming in gently with guitar and voice with the melodeon keeping the melody line ( no basses) going underneath.
First performance was in the Methodist Church and the acoustics were perfect ;D
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Sounds great, I often play haunting WW1 slow pipe marches on the melodeon without bass and remember playing Battle of the Somme with you in a session in the station inn with you on the concertina
george
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I've followed this thread from the start and it has given me some interesting food for thought, but I've not been minded to contribute until now. Why now? Well, two things happened this week that, taken together, say a lot about the pleasures and frustrations of learning to play.
The first one was that I discovered that, after more than 20 years of trying and failing, I was suddenly able to play with reasonable fluency the descending run of four triplets in Bars 4 and 12 of Harvest Home. I first learnt this tune, within a few months of starting to play the melodeon and kept returning to it frequently over the years, but that run defeated me every time. I could play the tune if I replaced the triplets with a simple run down the scale, but, for me, that took away much of the charm of the tune. Then suddenly, a few days ago, that sequence of triplets was just there! How on earth did that happen?
In contrast to that, I was given just two days notice to learn a tune from scratch to play at a wedding last Saturday and it just fell under my fingers. I was totally unfamiliar with the tune, but was able to play it with a reasonable level of competence almost immediately. I don't think that this tune, Rory O' Moore, is intrinsically easier than Harvest Home, so why is it that some tunes just fall under the fingers and others can take 20-odd years to master? The workings of the human mind are too complex for me to fathom, but I think that, if it were possibly to answer this question, the path to improved playing would be smoothed for many of us.
I struggled for years to be able to master the upper octave, which means I just didn't use it except by accident. However about 3 years ago I "discovered" I could play the tunes in either octave without thinking. No idea where that came from, but very a useful skill. Now, if I could play them both at the same time.....
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the thumb can sometimes be used to play the same note an octave lower when playing the tune in the higher octave and this can be useful to 'thicken up'' some of the high notes. Similarly the thumb can sometimes be used to add a bit of extra rhythm. Using the thumb is easier if playing on the D row on a flat keyboard but can be used on either row with a stepped keyboard
george
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the thumb can sometimes be used to play the same note an octave lower when playing the tune in the higher octave and this can be useful to 'thicken up'' some of the high notes. Similarly the thumb can sometimes be used to add a bit of extra rhythm. Using the thumb is easier if playing on the D row on a flat keyboard but can be used on either row with a stepped keyboard
george
Not if you play upside down like I do..... 8)
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Another side to this question, is how much of a layoff until you start to backslide?
I need to practice tonight, looking forward to Valse a Nini, which I found on Diatocode website.
Exciting piece, it really moves, very fluid. At work, Youtube not permitted.
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the more you play the better but if a 'layoff' cant be helped eg a couple of weeks holiday a few hours playing should restore things. I once had to layoff for around 6 moths and a couple of hours a day for a couple of weeks sorted things out
george
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In my 20s and 30s as a clarinettist I used to go mountaineering in the summer for a month. I needed a week to get my stamina back afterwards - I'd sound great for 5 minutes, but then the control went. I did make sure I never came straight back to a lung buster - such as Brahms 2nd piano concerto though. It's good to take a break.
As far as the getting somewhere on melodeon goes, every time I think I've hit the final plateau and lost heart, a new venture - (such as working out countermelodies) has got me going again.
I'm going to try out a Mengascini 12 bass in a few days, though the weight is daunting, but that could be another venture (it does mean part exchanging my Serafini if I go for it, so it's a big risk.
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Another side to this question, is how much of a layoff until you start to backslide?
if I don't practice for one day (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=if+i+don%27t+practice+for+one+day&oq=if+i+don%27t+practise&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0.13977j0j4&client=tablet-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)...
(I first heard it attributed to a Jazz musician, and it was "two days and the band knows it...")
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I find it's one of the uses for sheet music...short circuiting lack of practice (of a particular piece). I sometimes duet with a fiddle player at a bi weekly folk club and we get the wink that we are up next and quickly agree a couple of tunes from the dots collection we both carry. It's a good way to short circuit the 'do i don't I know this bit of music well enough' question, though I still need to have warmed up before hand, and generally one needs to practice (except I don't see it as 'practice'...more like having to have a squeezebox fix regularly).
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I still need to have warmed up before hand, and generally one needs to practice (except I don't see it as 'practice'...more like having to have a squeezebox fix regularly).
I dislike the term practice and discourage my students from using the term as to many it has connotations of being a 'chore' or just bloody 'hard work'. There can also be a time table problem if somebody eg allocated an hour on sundays for 'practice' -- then a friend drops in and its put off to the following sunday etc etc.
Instead I suggest keeping the box handy and picking it up for a few minutes whilst waiting for the kettle to boil or wahatever.. I practice what I preach and the few minutes whilst the kettle is boiling can easily turn into half an hour or more of enjoyable 'playing' whilst the kettle goes cold.
instead of keeping a box in its case , which is the best way of storing it, I keep one handy covered with a bath towel to keep the dust off it as its much easier to just pick it up for a quick burst !
george
george
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Roger, I don't understand your sheet music comment - are you saying that it is a help or a hindrance?
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"I suggest keeping the box handy"
Mr Garside, is your wife naturally amenable to this situation, or have you spent years training her? I only ask, hoping to gain some encouragement, as I'm having very little success in persuading my wife to go along with this excellent idea.
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"I suggest keeping the box handy"
Mr Garside, is your wife naturally amenable to this situation, or have you spent years training her? I only ask, hoping to gain some encouragement, as I'm having very little success in persuading my wife to go along with this excellent idea.
It can help to get the hang of playing fairly quietly which doesn't seem to come naturally to many melodeonist of whatever experience!
george >:E ;)
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Roger, I don't understand your sheet music comment - are you saying that it is a help or a hindrance?
presumably Roger is a good sight reader but a great many melodeonists play entirely by ear/from memory or fall into the category (of which I am one) that can read the dots for any tune you already know.
In the latter case the dots can help if revisiting a tune you havn't played for a long time but carting sheets of dots will only work if you/your band or whatever keep to a limited repertoire and is unlikely to work in sessions.
A few years ago I was setting up to lead a large session at Sidmouth (it turned out to be 156 musicians) when a couple , he carrying her 120 bass piano box and she a suitcase full of music asked me very politely 'what tunes will we be playing' !! The only answer I could think of was on the lines of " I havn't a clue but by the time you have found the dots, if you have the right ones, we will have played halaf a dozen more tunes"!
george
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A few years ago I was setting up to lead a large session at Sidmouth (it turned out to be 156 musicians)
Yeah but how many melodeon players?
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"I suggest keeping the box handy"
Mr Garside, is your wife naturally amenable to this situation, or have you spent years training her? I only ask, hoping to gain some encouragement, as I'm having very little success in persuading my wife to go along with this excellent idea.
I read this with a smile on my face, glancing to my left where four of my six boxes are sitting on the floor waiting impatiently for their turn to be played. This is the default position in our house: I work on my computers in our study and every hour or two I stop working, pick up one of my boxes and play for a while. The arrangement is that Penny doesn't mind me having melodeons on the study floor provided (a) they are placed so that she is unlikely to fall over them and (b) - this one is very important - I do all the dusting and vacuuming in the study. It works for us!
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A few years ago I was setting up to lead a large session at Sidmouth (it turned out to be 156 musicians)
Yeah but how many melodeon players?
didn't count them ( the stewards did an accurate total count) but would say probably top side of thirty . At the same festival I was getting 45/50 in my DG melodeon workshops
george