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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: mselic on February 27, 2017, 07:48:56 PM

Title: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on February 27, 2017, 07:48:56 PM
I've been playing (mostly) one row, 4 stop melodeon for the last two years. In that time I'd say I've become a moderately proficient player. I play mostly Irish and Newfoundland music, with a little bit of Quebecois. The music is fast, with a lot of notes, and playing style is obviously up and down the row with a lot of in and out.

I play with all four RH fingers; it seemed to make sense to me, and it's just what developed naturally as I learned to play the instrument. At times I have struggled with the pinkie finger; I have less control and precision with this finger as compared to the others, which I think is normal. Recently, I've noticed from watching many YouTube videos that many one-row melodeons players seem to only use 3 fingers! I will often favour the first three fingers, but will resort to using the pinkie as necessary. I'm asking for the opinion of one-row players as to what it is they do? I'm at a point where I really want to expand on my abilities as a player of Irish music on the one-row, and I'm evaluating different aspects of my playing style to see where improvement can be made. Any feedback is appreciated.

I have read a few others threads pertaining to this topic, but I'm interested in hearing from one-row players, as that is (or can be) a very different style of playing as compared to 2 or more rows.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on February 27, 2017, 08:04:42 PM
using 4 fingers makes sense to me particulary on tunes that use 4 5 or 6 adjacent buttons, On 4 button tunes I rest 4 fingers on the 4 buttons ready for action. 5 or 6 note tunes rest on 4 most used buttons and just move whole hand up of down a button as required. As to week little fingers the more you use it the stronger it gets!

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on February 27, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
So far I am playing with 4 fingers. I want to play more Irish tunes and sometimes I feel my fourth finger is keeping me from playing faster. Playing cuts works quite well with middle and ring finger - but obviously not well enough using the pinkie. So I am testing playing with 3 fingers. Position shifts are getting easier. I've not decided yet what's better for me.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 28, 2017, 12:04:32 AM
Although four fingers makes generally good sense, I will also reiterate what I tell my students and workshop attendees:
There are no rules - do whatever is comfortable for you and which allows you to play the music in the easiest way.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on February 28, 2017, 08:41:11 AM
agreed!. I would add that how many fingers to use can also depend on the particular part of a particular tune that is being played so a flexible approach is useful

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Bob Ellis on February 28, 2017, 09:03:14 AM
I would agree with both Steve and George. However, whether I use three or four fingers depends on the nature of the tune: if only the occasional note requires the little finger, then I will use it rather than move my hand position, but if there is a whole sequence of notes requiring the third and fourth fingers, then I will usually move my hand position to put them under the second and third fingers. Another factor that influences whether or not to use my little finger is how easy it is to change my hand position at that point in the tune.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: howard mitchell on February 28, 2017, 09:41:50 AM
I've only recently started to play a one row and I draw from the Quebec tradition and the East Anglian style.
I do tend to use 4 fingers but some tunes fall under three fingers quite nicely and I concur with others on this thread.

Take a look at Susie Lemay playing using 4 fingers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzqCQuJdEE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzqCQuJdEE)
and then Marie Jeanne Brousseau playing this difficult piece using mostly 3 fingers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iv-wNxjSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iv-wNxjSE)


Mitch

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: 911377brian on February 28, 2017, 10:57:51 AM
Amazing playing from both young ladies,Mitch. Interesting to see how straight their fingers are on the buttons. Never given it a lot of thought before but I've just realised that my elderly fingers are like bent savaloys when I play. Too late to up the technique now I fear :-\
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on February 28, 2017, 11:34:53 AM
very nice indeed and good to see their fingers coming right off between strikes

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: fc diato on February 28, 2017, 01:02:47 PM
I just started on one-row, but the guy leading the AQLF workshops I go to (for non-Quebecers, that's the Quebec folklore association) definitely advises like Bob Ellis, adding that if that doesn't work, do what works for you. He does advise us, though, to exercise the 4th finger (as in, don't give up on the 4th finger without trying).  My impression is that you have to be very good indeed to give up a finger without that affecting speed and breaking tempo.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on February 28, 2017, 01:14:13 PM
My impression is that you have to be very good indeed to give up a finger without that affecting speed and breaking tempo.

On the question of speed: I don't play one-row but on C#/D my ability to play at speed and most of all my accuracy ("sure-fingeredness"?) increased very significantly when I followed a good player's solemn injunction to drop the little finger - completely. These days I do allow myself to use it occasionally (but only when nobody's watching  (:) ).

3 fingers, 1 row, Irish reels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwHFmUJBiUM

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Andy Next Tune on February 28, 2017, 01:21:16 PM
I remember this question being asked of a well-known one-row player of this parish at a workshop in Mendlesham many years ago.

He preferred to play the melody with three or sometimes just two fingers, which he said leaves one or two fingers free to prod around and add other interesting stuff, such as adding octaves, chords etc.

So perhaps the question isn't just how many fingers, but also what they are doing!!!!!
And that will depend upon what type/style of music you are playing.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Anahata on February 28, 2017, 02:28:55 PM
my ability to play at speed and most of all my accuracy ("sure-fingeredness"?) increased very significantly when I followed a good player's solemn injunction to drop the little finger - completely.

I suspect that the "do what you feel comfortable with" approach will usually lead to the use of four fingers, while those who use 3 fingers do it because they've been taught to do so and made to practise that way. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that dropping the pinkie, once one had got out of the habit of using it, resulted in better (as described above: more accurate) playing for most of us.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on February 28, 2017, 03:56:37 PM
I would say that I currently do as Bob Ellis has suggested. I certainly favour the first three fingers, but resort to using the pinky as necessary in places where it seems to make sense (to me). I reposition my hand if, as he said, there are a whole sequence of notes that would otherwise require extensive use of the third and fourth fingers.

Another aspect of my playing that I still struggle with sometimes is single note repetitions. These I find easier with the first two fingers and then progressively harder with the fingers three and four. Often I will use two fingers for a single note (I know this topic has been explored at length in other threads). In Quebecois music there are often many single note repetitions, continuously, throughout a song which require a kind of constant, steady, machine-gun approach. The structure of these tunes involves the use of all four fingers (for me), and single note repetitions which end up falling on fingers three and four! Some days I am able to better play these tunes, and other days I really struggle. There are even some tunes which I've put off to the side for the time being as being outside my ability to play with the kind of grace and flow (or bounce) required.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stockaryd on February 28, 2017, 04:32:09 PM

Take a look at Susie Lemay playing using 4 fingers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzqCQuJdEE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzqCQuJdEE)
and then Marie Jeanne Brousseau playing this difficult piece using mostly 3 fingers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iv-wNxjSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iv-wNxjSE)

Mitch

Superb well of both.
  One uses the thumb strap.
The others use shoulder strap.

No one is particularly active on the left side.

This might affect the playing?

But still, - it was great! .
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Sage Herb on February 28, 2017, 05:31:22 PM
I play much less single-row than I did in the past, so I had to get out a box and see what I do! In contrast to my two-row playing (mostly 4 fingers) I mainly use three fingers, with fourth just to grab the odd note. It's maybe worth mentioning that one-row buttons can be harder to shift because of the greater spring tensions used to return longer pallets; that might favour predominant use of the three stronger fingers.
Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 28, 2017, 06:31:51 PM
I mostly use 4 fingers on the one-row. But then, I tend to use a lot of RH harmonies. I especially like the push octave spacing which comes naturally between index and little fingers, and then the remaining  arpeggio notes with the middle and ring fingers in the gap. Also the see-saw harmonies which arise when the following sequence is played in the home position:

Index and little finger PUSH
Index and little finger PULL
Middle and ring finger PULL
Middle and ring finger PUSH

Try it - it is especially good e.g. for the start of the B-music of Winster Gallop.

In other instances - having been inspired often by the playing of Jeannie Harris - I often play a sustained melody on my little finger (skipping about as needed) and use the other three fingers to improvise an arpeggio-based counter-melody underneath. Those of you who have attended my one-row workshops in Witney and Whitby will know what I mean.

...It's maybe worth mentioning that one-row buttons can be harder to shift because of the greater spring tensions used to return longer pallets; that might favour predominant use of the three stronger fingers.
I think that might be a feature of Hohner 114 one-rows, but on a more carefully designed and set-up box e.g. Castagnari Max, Wesson Clipper, etc. the spring tension is certainly not an issue.

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: rees on February 28, 2017, 07:21:22 PM
I can offer different spring pressures - strong springs for bellows thumpers, light springs for finger dancers.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: howard mitchell on February 28, 2017, 09:07:04 PM
... In Quebecois music there are often many single note repetitions, continuously, throughout a song which require a kind of constant, steady, machine-gun approach. The structure of these tunes involves the use of all four fingers (for me), and single note repetitions which end up falling on fingers three and four!

I quite often see Quebec players simply repeating the note with the same finger.  Take a look at another piece by Carmen Gerard -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfPgbHppGv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfPgbHppGv0)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: JimmyM on March 01, 2017, 09:19:54 AM
1 row is my box of choice though I do dabble in the d/g for morris. I'm pretty much self taught so probably full of bad technique. I experiment with all kinds of things (thumb strap, single v double straps, playing standing up v sitting down... etc) I've never even thought about not using 4 fingers and was suprised to see this thread. Having read it I can see there may be some merit to only using 3 fingers on occaison.
I have to say I've not noticed any particular failings in my punky though I suppose the other 3 fingers are more dominant. I DO think a lot about hand positioning and will play notes with a less obvious  finger because that moves my hand into a better position for the next bit of the tune

3 fingers? My first thought is why limit yourself but I guess I'll give it a go and see what differences it makes

AND great to know there are so many 1 row players out there  :||:
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Anahata on March 01, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
I DO think a lot about hand positioning and will play notes with a less obvious  finger because that moves my hand into a better position for the next bit of the tune

I think that's part of what using three fingers makes you do. If you go up a scale using the little finger and you then need to go higher, it's a big jump in hand position. If you have to make the change earlier, you'll also start deciding whether to move after you've used two fingers or three.

I haven't done what Stiamh suggested long-term, but I have occasionally tried deliberately not using the little finger and got better results - but it just seemed too much like hard work. I'm seriously thinking I should try harder...
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Andrew Wigglesworth on March 01, 2017, 12:22:45 PM
In terms of how Irish box players are usually (though it seems not always) taught, we've discussed this kind of thing before.

The three finger technique definitely tends to promote a particular style of playing that is popular in Irish button accordion playing. Using it on my D/G and one rows, it certainly changes how the tunes sound, and it's a technique that I use on some tunes as it seems to fit them.

However, if I'm playing English dance music I often (even generally, though that would mean investigating a large number of tunes) do what Steve_freereeder describes. My little finger and first finger may be playing parts of the tune, whilst my index finger is playing a rhythmic accompiament. Or vice versa to add a bit of "light" to  some tunes that grumble around the bottom few notes of the G row. Or I'm punching in two or three note "chords" or working the octaves, all of which require the use of the little finger.

I don't think I ever consciously copied this habit, but started to do it more or less naturally to emulate the sound that English musicians (not just melodeons) were getting.

So, yes both are perfectly good techniques for getting whatever it is you want, and consider the fact that four finger techniques also incorporate many three fingered tricks and I've seen players who favour a three finger technique using their little finger when required.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 01, 2017, 01:43:41 PM
four fingers for me but I don't think one way is better.
these players use four and it doesn't slow them down. also some lift their fingers up a fair amount, yet still play with speed and accuracy.
Rejean Simard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk  his hand is pretty straight to keyboard and lifts fingers

Frank Sears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbzwDuZayVA  his hand is at an angle to key bd. and lifts fingers off buttons a fair amount.

Gilles Poutoux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3TYciqLUS8  similar

Johnny Connolly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DnkFCcYbe8  hands straight not much lift on fingers






Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 01, 2017, 03:35:48 PM
provided a one row is firmly attached to the person, which most are not but mine are, it can be interesting to occasionaly use 5 fingers i.e. play the tune at the knee end with 3 or 4 fingers as required and occasionaly chuck in some grunters from the chin end with the thumb

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on March 01, 2017, 04:09:50 PM
Rejean Simard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Frank Sears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Gilles Poutoux  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 

Actually these are Réjean Simard!

Quote
Johnny Connolly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DnkFCcYbe8  hands straight not much lift on fingers

I am unconvinced. His little finger is certainly moving but I think that is sympathetic waggling. If you can identify a spot in that clip - or any other clip - where you are sure he is pressing a button with the little finger, please give the mins:seconds.



Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: rees on March 01, 2017, 04:25:51 PM
I spent a week with Johnny Connolly. He told me he uses four fingers.
I watched him very closely and never saw him use his little finger once during the whole week!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 01, 2017, 04:54:08 PM
Rejean Simard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Frank Sears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Gilles Poutoux  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 

Actually these are Réjean Simard!

Quote
Johnny Connolly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DnkFCcYbe8  hands straight not much lift on fingers

I am unconvinced. His little finger is certainly moving but I think that is sympathetic waggling. If you can identify a spot in that clip - or any other clip - where you are sure he is pressing a button with the little finger, please give the mins:seconds.

sorry , links fixed

If he said he uses four that's good enough for me ;)  well it looks like he's brings it in here and there. I can't point out any spots in videos ( bad angle or lighting in most ), you got me less convinced now.

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: tirpous on March 01, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
Quote
I am unconvinced. His little finger is certainly moving but I think that is sympathetic waggling. If you can identify a spot in that clip - or any other clip - where you are sure he is pressing a button with the little finger, please give the mins:seconds.

This one maybe ?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4DjASIHbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4DjASIHbM)  Around the 1 minute mark...
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 03, 2017, 03:21:18 PM
still hard to tell, there's seems to be something blocking the view in all the videos.
but early in that video around 20 to 25 seconds it looks like he does.

I haven't seen this "Guy" before, It came up on my suggested or recommended list on YT.
very good playing, I think and He uses four as needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr0bSJMDVHE

I'm thinking the box he's playing is a four voice? maybe just a stop for low and high voice.

I noticed he's playing to a track and was wondering can you get these backing tracks somewhere or do you have to make your own. There's probably some on YT but wondering if there's more?
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on March 03, 2017, 03:32:37 PM
I haven't seen this "Guy" before, It came up on my suggested or recommended list on YT.
very good playing, I think and He uses four as needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr0bSJMDVHE

I'm thinking the box he's playing is a four voice? maybe just a stop for low and high voice.

BTW he's a "ghee" rather than a "guy"... and those knobs are probably not stops - just handles for bathroom cabinets screwed on for decoration. Some of Messervier's earlier models have the same "feature".
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: richard.fleming on March 03, 2017, 04:10:08 PM
Why use three fingers if you've got four? Makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 03, 2017, 05:29:18 PM
I haven't seen this "Guy" before, It came up on my suggested or recommended list on YT.
very good playing, I think and He uses four as needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr0bSJMDVHE

I'm thinking the box he's playing is a four voice? maybe just a stop for low and high voice.

BTW he's a "ghee" rather than a "guy"... and those knobs are probably not stops - just handles for bathroom cabinets screwed on for decoration. Some of Messervier's earlier models have the same "feature".

Thanks for the name info, I can barely do English as you know (:)
It sounds nice too!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on March 03, 2017, 05:57:02 PM
Why use three fingers if you've got four? Makes no sense to me.

Made none to me either - until I was persuaded to try it.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 03, 2017, 06:55:47 PM
the question of how many fingers to use arises with all diatonic boxes not just one rows  and whether 1, 2 or 3 rows and semitone or 4th apart  oron one the row on the row ( where else)  there are no hard and fast rules as what's best for the individual .It can vary not only from tune to tune but also with different bits of the same tune.  As an example for the run down in harvest home  on a 2 or 3 row semitone box I find that using 2 fingers works better than 3 or 4 but tend to use 4 most of the time  while on a one row I use always 4 fingers  for the same bit of harvest home .

the how many fingers debate never seems to crop amongst piano box players? 

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: richard.fleming on March 03, 2017, 07:14:50 PM
So Stiamh, can you explain why it is better to use 3 fingers? I've given it a go but I'm not an instant convert...
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 03, 2017, 07:45:34 PM
the question of how many fingers to use arises with all diatonic boxes not just one rows  and whether 1, 2 or 3 rows and semitone or 4th apart  oron one the row on the row ( where else)  there are no hard and fast rules as what's best for the individual .It can vary not only from tune to tune but also with different bits of the same tune.  As an example for the run down in harvest home  on a 2 or 3 row semitone box I find that using 2 fingers works better than 3 or 4 but tend to use 4 most of the time  while on a one row I use always 4 fingers  for the same bit of harvest home .

the how many fingers debate never seems to crop amongst piano box players? 

george
  I like Discussion rather than  debate for I'm not taking a side.
My teacher never mention it when I started. I been trying it but think it would take a lot of retraining.
Rejean Simard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Frank Sears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 
Gilles Poutoux  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwltqwDCGKk 

Actually these are Réjean Simard!

Quote
Johnny Connolly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DnkFCcYbe8  hands straight not much lift on fingers

I am unconvinced. His little finger is certainly moving but I think that is sympathetic waggling. If you can identify a spot in that clip - or any other clip - where you are sure he is pressing a button with the little finger, please give the mins:seconds.




this video is good and I believe He does use it, and clearly using it at around 4.25 >:E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pv8VcBvrn0
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Anahata on March 03, 2017, 08:08:16 PM
Why use three fingers if you've got four? Makes no sense to me.

In a nutshell, because the little finger tends to be weaker and less co-ordinated than the other three.

Try playing a fast trill, first with 1st two fingers, then with 3rd and 4th, and you'll soon hear the difference.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on March 03, 2017, 08:10:01 PM
So Stiamh, can you explain why it is better to use 3 fingers? I've given it a go but I'm not an instant convert...

Before Anahata beat me to it, with admirable brevity, I was in the process of writing the following!

Richard, I'm a bit weary of discussing this subject because it has come up many times and in years past I probably came across as a bit of an anorak | nerd | preacher.

Rather than say it is better, I'll say it has helped me a) get around the keyboard faster and b) hit buttons, esp. remote buttons, with greater certainty. Some varieties of Irish tune have us scooting up and down the keyboard much more than say québécois tunes, and so what québécois (or English) players do, with their own stylistic conventions, and with most of them having their thumbs in a thumbstrap, is of academic interest only to me.

On the lines of what George said above, I also coined the phrase, "if a passage is too hard using 3 fingers, try it using 2"... Chris Ryall liked that one.

Here's one thread in which I was asked to explain my adherence to the 3-digit school (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=2242.45).

There are earlier ones if you feel like trawling. But if you've tried the approach and not found it to be of benefit, then there's no point. If I had tried it and not found it so useful, I would have certainly have consigned it to the rubbish bin of useless advice.

For you, to paraphrase George Orwell, "3 fingers good, 4 fingers better." For me it's the reverse. (:)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: playandteach on March 03, 2017, 09:23:10 PM
Seems to me we're saying: Train the little finger equally hard, but then keep in on the bench until needed.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: oggiesnr on March 03, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
I also play double bass where you use your fouth finger, in fact use of your second finger is a no-no.  It's surprising how quickly you can build up strength and dexterity in your fourth finger  (:)

The other thing that double bass playing teaches you is hand shifts and that is what has really transferred to melodeon playing.  So I need to go up to that set of notes?  Right where are the logical places to move my hands?  Often (on a G box but it holds good for other keys, just change the notes) I'll anchor my first finger on D and then shift it to B.  If I have to go really high I'll shift to the octave D but this is rare, I can enough buttons with my hand to use mt little finger for octave harmonies.

Steve
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on March 03, 2017, 10:53:13 PM
Rather than say it is better, I'll say it has helped me a) get around the keyboard faster and b) hit buttons, esp. remote buttons, with greater certainty. Some varieties of Irish tune have us scooting up and down the keyboard much more than say québécois tunes, and so what québécois (or English) players do, with their own stylistic conventions, and with most of them having their thumbs in a thumbstrap, is of academic interest only to me.
Certainly not. The OP will be interested and I'll seriously try to use only three fingers. I think it'll make fast playing easier.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 04, 2017, 12:24:58 AM
Seems to me we're saying: Train the little finger equally hard, but then keep in on the bench until needed.
Or keep it on deck swinging at every pitch and not hit anything, just waiting for a chance to hit something (:)

I agree with TomBom Op should be interested as the question was asked.

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: gettabettabox on March 04, 2017, 12:45:15 AM
Anahata  and stiamh have it.
Physiologically speaking, the little finger doesn't have it.
Ok for grace note flicks and the occasional isolated top note, but generally not as adroit.
I know because when I switched to (mainly) three fingers,  I went from being a poor player to mediocre. ..which could be considered as progress.
Most of my weak phrases had earlier involved you know who.
others will choose their little finger to open a ring pull can of beans.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on March 04, 2017, 01:00:25 AM
Ok for grace note flicks and the occasional isolated top note, but generally not as adroit.
That's interesting – I find it quite hard to hit quick grace notes with my little finger.

Here's one thread in which I was asked to explain my adherence to the 3-digit school (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=2242.45).
Thanks for this really helpful link!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: richard.fleming on March 04, 2017, 01:17:48 AM
Why use three fingers if you've got four? Makes no sense to me.

In a nutshell, because the little finger tends to be weaker and less co-ordinated than the other three.

Try playing a fast trill, first with 1st two fingers, then with 3rd and 4th, and you'll soon hear the difference.
Have you ever watched what Scottish pipers do with their little fingers?
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Stiamh on March 04, 2017, 02:56:10 AM
...so what québécois (or English) players do, with their own stylistic conventions, and with most of them having their thumbs in a thumbstrap, is of academic interest only to me.
Certainly not. The OP will be interested and I'll seriously try to use only three fingers. I think it'll make fast playing easier.

I now see what you thought I meant. What I actually meant was, "what those other players do is, to me, only of academic interest" (i.e. because my goals are different). Cheers and sorry for the ambiguous wording.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on March 04, 2017, 10:54:41 AM
 (:)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 05, 2017, 03:19:44 PM
Thank you everyone so far for your feedback - this has been a most interesting and helpful discussion. The funny thing is, when I first started learning to play the one-row, my assumption was that it was actually poor form to *not* use the pinkie. I resisted playing passages using only three fingers because it seemed to make more sense to use all four, and I figured I needed to strengthen the weakest finger and increase its dexterity. I don't think I will abandon the pinkie, as I find it invaluable in many instances, but I will certainly be rethinking how I move forward and will be experimenting with using three fingers more and more. We'll see where it takes me...
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Graham Spencer on March 05, 2017, 06:44:37 PM
Apologies in advance for the fact that this may not be the most constructive response in this thread, but it seems to me that there is a simple answer to the question "3 or 4 fingers?" - namely, "yes".

Horses for courses, I guess.....

Graham

Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 05, 2017, 07:34:12 PM
Just to be clear - I'm not looking for the *correct* answer to my question, as it is obvious that either method is acceptable. You must understand that I am coming from a place of being entirely self-taught, having learned everything from recordings of music that like (including audio files of YouTube videos). I live in a part of the world where the music I play is not particularly common, and I have yet to come across another 4-stop melodeon player who plays Irish music. As a result, I have no real way of getting feedback on my particular area of discipline, no one from whom I can learn and better myself, or whom I can emulate. My only real sounding board, apart from other non-melodeon musicians, is this forum. It is in the interest of improving my skills as a box player that I choose to step back and look at what I'm doing and see where/if there are areas where adjustments can be made that might be of benefit. The feedback of other players in this regard is most helpful at the moment, if for no other reason that to be aware of how it is that others accomplish the same thing. Thanks for all the feedback.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Bob Ellis on March 05, 2017, 10:07:31 PM
Putting people who are playing in isolation in touch with other like-minded musicians is surely one of the main purposes of this great forum.  :||:  :|||:
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 05, 2017, 10:18:28 PM
whilst I would agree totally that 2,3 or 4 fingers can and may be should be used on a one row ( according to what works best for the individual player for a particular tune or bit thereof)  I would comment that the only way to strengthen the pinky is to use it other than for nasal coal mining!

george ;)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Huw Adamson on March 05, 2017, 11:06:18 PM
Of course, in the melodion training camps of North Yorkshire there are specific exercises and drills specifically to strengthen the pinkie, notably 'finger fencing' and the dreaded 'pinkie press-ups'.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on March 07, 2017, 12:15:44 AM
Who told you that Huw? These camps are supposed to be a State secret and participants are sworn never to tell a living soul about them. If you let me know his/her name, I will arrange for them to be shot at their earliest convenience. If you then let me have your address, i will arrange for you to be shot as well - all very humanely of course.  :Ph
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 07, 2017, 02:37:15 AM
Of course, in the melodion training camps of North Yorkshire there are specific exercises and drills specifically to strengthen the pinkie, notably 'finger fencing' and the dreaded 'pinkie press-ups'.

A friend of mine went off to one of those camps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1y4X0MMalw). He came back with a very strong finger.
Can't say it improved his melodeon playing though!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: playandteach on March 07, 2017, 07:13:10 AM
But I wouldn't say that to his face. I find that holding down a drone note with the first finger and playing the tune with the other fingers is great training in independent articulation.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 07, 2017, 09:14:00 AM
that sounds like a good idea
george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 07, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
Posted this before - NB Health and Safety Warning

About 1992 I'd moved into a bigger house with quite a large lawn. Needed a proper mower - bought a 'Suffolk Punch'.   Worked fine, except it was reconn'd, and a bit of a bugger to start, and the grass used to block the exit hole on occasion.   No problem: I developed a trick to flick it out - EXCEPT one Sunday I got that trick wrong and ended up with a triple sized and rather tender end of right index finger. At least I still had it ;)

Melodeonism: Hmmm, I had a pressing problem.  Nothing daunted, I relearned all my tunes to play with fingers 3/4/5, until the fracture healed and the pain went away.  About a month.  That has stood me in good stead and nowadays my right hand just … perceives buttons that need a press and move the nearest spare finger in that direction. It doesn't care which, and my Pinkie is as happy to do the jobs as any other finger.   

I can't recommend my mowing technique, but as an exercise 'wrong finger' playing was quick and effective.  I adapted a 'no bandage' verion to get all 4 digits working on my left hand.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on March 08, 2017, 08:58:32 AM
I play primarily one rowboxes, mostly fast melodic types of music from several cultures. When first learning a tune, I try a variety of fingerings based on where the melody has come from and where it is going with regards to the button locations on the keyboard. I often find the using four fingers makes for less hand shifting. For me, less movement and less larger muscle movement equals increase speed. My little finger function on my left hand is highly developed from playing fiddle, banjo, mandolin and madocello. When I first started playing the melodeon, my right hand little finger was less dexterous. Now, it is approaching the functionality of my left pinkie. There are two aspects to little finger usage. One is anatomical. The little and ring finger share an extensor muscle via a forked tendon. Therefore, there is a mechanical and neurological difference from the other fingers. We can't change the anatomy, but we can improve the responsiveness of the neuropathways involved through mindful, repeated practice. When playing music which involves  the use of octaves, played at the same time, a well fuctioning little finger is essential. 
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 08, 2017, 09:24:55 AM
I thought it was the middle 2 fingers (excluding the thumb) that were connected as with the hand on a flat surface lifting one sort of tries to lift t'other. The same does not apply to lifting the little finger trying to lift the 3rd finger not does the reverse apply.

the ltlle finger can be strengthened simply by tapping it on the table, arm of a chair or even the steering wheel whilst ddriving along.  better still get hold of an old underwood or similar manual typewriter and learn to touch type - the pinky has to be just as strong as the others.  It is perhaps because I learned to touch type on such a typewriter a long long time ago that I have never had the slightest problem using the little finger when playing a box.

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: richard.fleming on March 08, 2017, 10:38:53 AM
No-one has mentioned the importance of being able to stretch the index finger sideways to reach to low notes.. Look at videos of really good Irish players for example.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 08, 2017, 10:47:53 AM
the thumb will reach even further!

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on March 08, 2017, 11:50:58 AM
I can't recommend my mowing technique, but as an exercise 'wrong finger' playing was quick and effective.  I adapted a 'no bandage' verion to get all 4 digits working on my left hand.
Your training method seems to be quite common:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnAeAwUTiw
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 08, 2017, 06:05:38 PM
I do use my pinkie, but for repeated single notes (which are common in Irish music played on a melodeon) the pinkie struggles. If I have to hit a note three times in quick succession and that note happens to fall where my pinkie is, I will often re-think my fingering. I learned to touch type - I use all four fingers without difficulty....I can also tap my pinky three times in a row on a counter top no problem....but to reliably reproduce that when pushing a button on a four voice box is a different story, at least for me.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on March 09, 2017, 03:46:54 AM
I thought it was the middle 2 fingers (excluding the thumb) that were connected as with the hand on a flat surface lifting one sort of tries to lift t'other. The same does not apply to lifting the little finger trying to lift the 3rd finger not does the reverse apply. ...
george
The middle finger also has a forked extensor tendon.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 15, 2017, 03:54:06 PM
I had the good fortune to see Jackie Daly play last night and watched his fingers closely (he plays C#/D).  Afterwards, there was an informal session of sorts and I watched a young player, who I believe is Gaston Nolet's nephew, and a HECK of a box player too, play a one-row box along with Jackie.  I watched them both closely and never saw them use their pinkie once.  I then asked them about it, but both claimed that they used all four fingers!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: 911377brian on March 15, 2017, 05:47:39 PM
Mselic, that's really interesting. I played a couple of tunes to the long suffering Mrs Brian and she tells me that I do use my pinkie but in a random kind of way. I wasn't aware that I ever used it.... ???
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 16, 2017, 08:56:47 AM
using the pinky in an unconscious way is probably the best way - thinking about it the same should apply to other fingers ( and thumb) the use of!

Experiment slowly as to fingering when learning a tune is ok  but when playing there isn't time for any conscious thought about which digit prods which button

george
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 17, 2017, 10:27:53 AM
Just to tidy up (I'm an anatomist) the extensor tendons at back of hand do vary. I was taught that a slip joining 4-5 was the rule.  Feeling there on my own hand there is a strong diagonal ligament,t which affects 4 when I move 5 . "Classical pianists used to pay for this to be cut, surgically", the professor said.

Looking at diagrams on't'Internet - there are all sorts(!) of other little slips,  and I can 'just' feel one between 3-4 on my own hand - though it doesn't seem to move anything!

Having said that I've been a 4 finger player ever since my little attempt at self-amputation with that lawn mower  ::) The slip between my extensor tendons seem to cause no problems at all!   I 'd guess that in some of us it is more rubust, and might?

The more fingers the better, in my view. 
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 17, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
I had the good fortune to see Jackie Daly play last night and watched his fingers closely (he plays C#/D).  Afterwards, there was an informal session of sorts and I watched a young player, who I believe is Gaston Nolet's nephew, and a HECK of a box player too, play a one-row box along with Jackie.  I watched them both closely and never saw them use their pinkie once.  I then asked them about it, but both claimed that they used all four fingers!
I think he uses it in the Video you posted in the other thread, check out the close up during ballydesmond polka at the end of tune. But He appears to mostly use three, wonderful stuff!!

From my experience the pinky has got stronger and more independent by using it, not that it makes for better playing using it or not. That comes from knowing the instrument and more importantly the music I think.
How are you liking the Beltuna?
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 17, 2017, 07:45:55 PM
Quote

How are you liking the Beltuna?

I love the Beltuna - it's a fantastic box.  I've tried several different one row boxes over the last two years, and this is the first one that made me lose interest in window shopping for others...My only real issue with it has been the last couple of buttons beginning to stick a little, presumably due to environmental conditions causing swelling of the wood, or something to that effect.  This is apparently not an entirely uncommon issue, as the dealer that I bought mine from said they have had to fix the same issue on a few boxes.  They'll be fixing mine in a few weeks, free of charge.

I also noticed a big difference between the box I walked away with, and the one that was on display on the shelf; the one that was on display felt a bit more "worked-in", and mine felt a bit tight in comparison. They all had excellent reed response - the slightest amount of pressure would begin to sound the reed.  I'm quite happy with it.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on March 18, 2017, 07:58:51 AM
Just to tidy up (I'm an anatomist) the extensor tendons at back of hand do vary. I was taught that a slip joining 4-5 was the rule.  Feeling there on my own hand there is a strong diagonal ligament,t which affects 4 when I move 5 . "Classical pianists used to pay for this to be cut, surgically", the professor said.

Looking at diagrams on't'Internet - there are all sorts(!) of other little slips,  and I can 'just' feel one between 3-4 on my own hand - though it doesn't seem to move anything!

Having said that I've been a 4 finger player ever since my little attempt at self-amputation with that lawn mower  ::) The slip between my extensor tendons seem to cause no problems at all!   I 'd guess that in some of us it is more rubust, and might?

The more fingers the better, in my view.
I took five quarters of anatomy inclunding one quarter specifically dealing with the upper extremities only, and one of the five was neuroanatomy. This was the basis for my previous comments. These classes were over four decades ago, but hand morphology hasn't changed. I am a four finger player and have noticed steady, measurable inprovement over time. This thread has resulted in my closer monitoring of my right hand motor activity, but not to the extent of interferring with musical expression.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on March 18, 2017, 08:09:49 AM
I have unconsciously learned to somewhat divorce unwanted coextention of my fourth and little finger by slightly energising the intrensic flexor muscles of my ring finger while extending my little finger. The flexor tension is not enough to move the finger, but rather provide cocontraction to stabilize the metacarpal-phalangeal joint while allowing independent extension of the little finger. Of course, I don't think of this, but there is a sensation/feedback loop which accompanies this incedent.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 18, 2017, 10:00:19 AM
as a non anatomist it seems to me that our two anatomical experts are saying words to the effect of '' if you just get on with it ( using the little finger)  the 'strings' in the hand  will just get used to it and any problems will take care of themselves''????


George - (a 4 or occasionaly 5 finger player whose stings do not cause any  problems)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Chris Ryall on March 18, 2017, 11:57:21 AM
Depends 'how you are made' George (our psychologist, as we see above ;)).   I've never had any problem, once I realised it was there.  As per above, several concert pianists in the early 20th century had the slips 'snipped'  - but then that's one way to get one's name in the papers, and so 'back to psychology'. 

I stick by 'the more fingers the better', while noting that Django Rheinhard did OK with 2! 

An exception  is the 'built in blues scale' that runs in an  ◥ ◢◥ ◢◥ ◢ zig-zag pattern along a 2-row (off topic!) quint box, eg F#m on a D/G.  That has a such a totally regular 3 button shape repeat - that we are best to stick to three fingers. As a policy. 
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Katie Howson on March 23, 2017, 10:15:25 PM
I hesitate to dip my toe in the water here, as although I’ve been playing the one-row melodeon for 40 years, I’m not prone to analysing things too closely.

I always used to feel second-best for not using my fourth finger, as I presumed from the two piano lessons I had as child that it was compulsory to do so, but then I learned to play C melodeon sitting alongside older generation traditional musicians in Suffolk who never really gave you any hints about what to do, and if it was your turn to play Pigeon on the Gate for stepdancing, you had to do it on your own whether you knew the tune or not – so individual habits evolved to make the sound I wanted to get out of the box.

Since those days I’ve taught many people to play in classes and workshops and my mantra has always been ‘there are no rules’ - this is what is so different and liberating about our genre of music in comparison to having conventional piano lessons. It’s really great to find other people on here also recognising - not only is it OK not to use your little finger - but that there are actually benefits to it! I still have students who clearly don’t quite believe me, but who have been struggling to make their music fluent because of over reliance on the smaller fingers.

The thing with the one-row of course is that you play up the ‘dusty’ end of the keyboard so much more, that you really have to move your hand position more often than those who play safe with short-stretch tunes based on the G row (talking D/G here, sorry) near your chin.

The week with Johnny Connolly was as enlightening as Rees says – but glorious music and I do now have a better insight into reels on the ‘melojun’.

I was prompted to join this discussion because just minutes before logging onto melnet I was playing a tune and without thinking about it, used my little finger for the last note. So there you go, some people say they use it and don’t, and others say they never use it and then take even themselves by surprise!
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 24, 2017, 12:13:41 AM

... Since those days I’ve taught many people to play in classes and workshops and my mantra has always been ‘there are no rules’ - this is what is so different and liberating about our genre of music in comparison to having conventional piano lessons. ...

Well said, Katie. This is exactly my philosophy too.  (:)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: boxcall on March 24, 2017, 01:04:58 AM
I agree with Steve, Thanks for contributing to the topic Katie!
I have been using and may still use four fingers , thought it would be difficult to change now to three. I surprised myself playing the Liverpool hornpipe with three fingers pretty well ( for me anyway )after reading your post.  I had to think about the movements but this would pass I'm sure.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: george garside on March 24, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
totally agree with Katie and Steve!

george (:)
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: baz parkes on March 24, 2017, 12:30:49 PM
I have been worrying about this since I started to read the thread...so much so I had to work out what I do.

I decided to find out...concentrating so much on which fingers I was using I managed to cock up virtually every tune I tried on both 1 and 2 row boxes.

Having taken the easy way out I am reliably informed by Mrs P that I use all 4 fingers whether it be a 1 or two row.

To my chagrin, I remain a mostly 2 finger bass player,,, :|bl
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: mselic on March 24, 2017, 02:18:14 PM
Thanks for that feedback, Katie.  Since starting this thread, I've been playing close attention to how other one-row players use their fingers which has been very instructive.  Most of them did indeed only use three fingers, with the fourth finger coming into use occasionally.  I decided to experiment a little myself, as there were certain aspects of my playing that I had been struggling with at the time of starting this thread.  Here's what I've done...

While learning new tunes, I began to use three fingers more prominently, using the pinkie finger only as necessary.  This meant that my hand would travel up and down the row a little more frequently than I was accustomed to, having in the past always used four fingers for four buttons and kept hand movement to a minimum, a practice I had assumed was considered "good form".  I assumed that anything different would be considered poor form and would actually limit my playing.  However, now that I've been trying it out, I must admit to noticing some real benefit!  I still use my pinkie, but I use it less, and the greater degree of control I'm experiencing favouring the first three fingers has been worth it.  I would definitely say that this is improving my playing.

Making a change of this nature is, as someone in an earlier post or thread once mentioned, not something that necessarily happens overnight. It's not without its challenges.  It's like learning a new language.  With the increased finger movement, I now have to rethink my choice of fingerings when learning a new tune.  There suddenly seems to be a whole lot more options about how to navigate the keyboard on a tune, whereas with four fingers on four buttons it was a little more straightforward, albeit at a cost.  On tunes that I already know and play well, I stuck with my old fingerings.  New tunes and tunes that needed work are being approached from a different angle now.

Three fingers or four, in ITM I'm still amazed how you sometimes need to go from one end of the keyboard to the other, and then back again in a very short span of time, and still play about every single available note in between... :P
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: richard.fleming on July 23, 2017, 11:36:23 AM
To add a postscript to this old chestnut, unless you use your little finger you are unlikely to have your index finger in position for doing 5-note rolls.
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: TomBom on July 23, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
Ah, it's easy to avoid this problem. I just don't play 5-note rolls on a single row. In my ears they don't sound 'right'.
I do not like them in my playing and leave out the ornamented note below; so my version are 4-note rolls ...
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Bob Ellis on July 23, 2017, 01:42:18 PM
I'm going to see Marc Savoy tomorrow, so it will be interested to see how he does it. Anyone else from here going?
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: syale on July 23, 2017, 01:53:38 PM
I decided to find out...concentrating so much on which fingers I was using I managed to cock up virtually every tune I tried on both 1 and 2 row boxes.

In my experience, the moment I start to think about things it goes to pot pretty quickly. The time to think is when I am playing the tune slowly and trying to find the most fluid solution so I am not snatching for buttons. This means that there are no rules. I don't have a home location for my fingers, the tune decides that. I do use 4 fingers and I have small hands so the 4th finger gives me that extra stretch I am looking for.  I didn't think about it when I began. I had no tutor so I felt my way around slowly starting with three and bringing in the fourth. I do finger exercises to strengthen my digits usually when out walking so I must look a little odd!.

Stephen
Title: Re: One row playing - 3 or 4 fingers
Post by: Tufty on July 23, 2017, 02:52:54 PM
I'm going to see Marc Savoy tomorrow, so it will be interested to see how he does it. Anyone else from here going?
I will be there, after a meal and pint at the Lion Inn at Blakey!
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