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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Daddy Long Les on March 08, 2017, 05:54:48 PM

Title: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Daddy Long Les on March 08, 2017, 05:54:48 PM
Hi,

I've been getting a nasty cramp in my left hand lately whilst playing my Lily (the fatty part below the thumb, palm-side).  I felt that the bass strap was a tad loose so I put a quarter-folded handkerchief between the top of my hand and the bass strap and the situation seemed to improve.  I then went a bit further and made two new holes in my strap to tighten it more permanently. Sadly,  I don't have one of the nice velcro-adjustable bass straps and I've been speaking to Charlie Marshall about that today as he stocks them.  My feeling was that the pain was tension due to me trying to stop my left hand from moving upwards thus making the operation of the air button a bit harder.  For some reason I seem to prefer just clipping the very edge of the push-in lever.  Incidentally, I much prefer the slot-type air button on my Hohners.

I only moved the strap about 1/8 of an inch.  Now it's tight, almost uncomfortably so but the cramp appears to have gone and I'm definitely playing better. I've got more control over the left hand side especially when pulling and when using the air button to get more air into the bellows.  It all feels a bit more "immediate" if you know what I mean.

What do we think?  How tight is too tight?  I'd be interested to know what most players prefer.

Many Thanks

Les
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Huw Adamson on March 08, 2017, 07:28:24 PM
Firstly I agree with your point about the Hohner air button. I play a pokerwork, which had, when I got it, a little adjuster screw. I usually play with this loose, and my hand cupped slightly so I can change direction without any give, but can still reach the C and E/B basses (D/G melodeon) without hitting the D/G or D/A basses. When I have been playing for an hour or so I will tighten the screw, to avoid getting cramp in my left hand, but this can make my playing a little worse. It might also have something to do with strap material. Mine is an old leather belt, but I have found (on other peoples boxes) I prefer the padded ones.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: AirTime on March 08, 2017, 07:41:30 PM
I have a feeling bass strap position is a very personal thing. I have noticed that very small changes in the looseness of the strap can make a big difference in how it feels to me, although I'm guessing that it's possible to adjust playing technique over time to accommodate a different strap set-up.  In my experience, the Lilly is a particular case because the box itself is so small & light that controlling has it's own issues distinct from a larger, heavier box.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Graham Spencer on March 08, 2017, 07:42:09 PM
Personally I like it quite snug. I'm fortunate in that my Saltarelle, which I play most, has a rotella adjuster, but with the Hohners and other assorted boxes it's been a matter of some experiment and trimming of leather to get them just where I like them. I suppose the answer would be to fit adjusters on the other boxes, but they just don't look right on a Koch 2-row or Hlavaček heligonka........

I've not tried the velcro adjustable straps - they seem a good idea in principle but look a bit bulky and stiff.

Graham
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: george garside on March 08, 2017, 07:44:40 PM
the position of the bass strap on the arm/wrist can also have a bearing on comfort. Irrespective of size of box, type of air button/bar and number of bass  I prefer to have the strap roughly where a watch  would be worn and fairly tight. The wrist and hand are  then totally free to articulate and reach all the bass and airbutton.  When playing I either remove my watch of wear it on my right arm.

george
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: AirTime on March 08, 2017, 09:16:48 PM
I have both velcro adjustable strap & rotella adjuster - there's no really noticeable difference in how they feel when you're playing. It occurs to me that the position of the left hand & therefore the strap tightness depends on whether you're using two, three or four fingers for the basses.

Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Lester on March 08, 2017, 09:19:06 PM
the position of the bass strap on the arm/wrist can also have a bearing on comfort. Irrespective of size of box, type of air button/bar and number of bass  I prefer to have the strap roughly where a watch  would be worn and fairly tight. The wrist and hand are  then totally free to articulate and reach all the bass and airbutton.  When playing I either remove my watch of wear it on my right arm.

george

Confused of Wendover here.

You say "I prefer to have the strap roughly where a watch  would be worn and fairly tight" yet you can reach the air button. Can't see how this is possible with say a Pokerwork
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: 911377brian on March 08, 2017, 09:24:22 PM
Just tried it and it's not possible. Perhaps I'm put together badly..
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Mike Carney on March 08, 2017, 10:06:22 PM
Big plug for the Velcro adjustable strap. Got one on the Laura and when had my ancient Erika done I had one fitted to that. Very easy to adjust to exactly what you need. Not at all cumbersome.  :||:
M
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Paul Pepper on March 08, 2017, 11:15:05 PM
I've only been playing a few months and have had problems with left hand upward slippage on the bass-end from the beginning. After slackening, tightening (ouch) and trying all sorts of left hand placement variations (cupping the hand and so on) I solved my own slippage problems using an additional bass-end strap (see attached images).

Here's where I saw the suggestion:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=13046.0
and
http://diato.org/trucs/sangle.htm#1

I bought an old leather belt from a local charity shop for £3 and a local cobbler turned it into a strap for another £5. Additionally, it has a Velcro adjuster since I find that temperature makes a difference to how tight it needs to be. The adjuster also allows me to easily get my hand in and out.

My air button (slider type) now stays within reach and I no longer suffer the discomfort I previously experienced.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Winston Smith on March 08, 2017, 11:36:38 PM
I like the Loffet idea. The left hand strap snapped on my Hering the other week, but I managed to get some leather from a local man here in Luxor. Problem is, it's now stretching and getting difficult to control that end of the box while stabbing at the odd bass button. I might just try to fashion something like that tomorrow. (Errr, today!)
Thanks Paul.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Psuggmog Volbenz on March 09, 2017, 03:55:58 AM
Hi,

I've been getting a nasty cramp in my left hand lately whilst playing my Lily (the fatty part below the thumb, palm-side).  I felt that the bass strap was a tad loose so I put a quarter-folded handkerchief between the top of my hand and the bass strap and the situation seemed to improve.  I then went a bit further and made two new holes in my strap to tighten it more permanently. Sadly,  I don't have one of the nice velcro-adjustable bass straps and I've been speaking to Charlie Marshall about that today as he stocks them.  My feeling was that the pain was tension due to me trying to stop my left hand from moving upwards thus making the operation of the air button a bit harder.  For some reason I seem to prefer just clipping the very edge of the push-in lever.  Incidentally, I much prefer the slot-type air button on my Hohners.

I only moved the strap about 1/8 of an inch.  Now it's tight, almost uncomfortably so but the cramp appears to have gone and I'm definitely playing better. I've got more control over the left hand side especially when pulling and when using the air button to get more air into the bellows.  It all feels a bit more "immediate" if you know what I mean.

What do we think?  How tight is too tight?  I'd be interested to know what most players prefer.

Many Thanks

Les
The part of your hand which you described as cramping is called the thenar eminence in anatomical terms.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2017, 07:44:33 AM
I tend to have a snug strap.
My Tommy has a Velcro fastener and now it's sorted stays fixed at whatever it is. As a small light box it always feels fine.
The larger and heavier Hascy has a rotella wheel. I sometimes feel my wrist heading up the box slightly and look at the strap - it will have slipped slightly so I'll give the rotella a couple of turns to tighten it.
My guide is the two rivets that go through the strap, the rivet heads are about 4mm in diameter. If the head is half out of the casework, it's about right. If it is all out by 1-2mm then my hand will slip up the box.
There isn't a lot of difference between snug, loose and tight, and a heavier box is more likely to slip in my experience.
Q
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: richard.fleming on March 09, 2017, 08:34:31 AM
Sharon Shannon used to jam a squeegee-sponge thing in there..
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: george garside on March 09, 2017, 09:01:16 AM
the position of the bass strap on the arm/wrist can also have a bearing on comfort. Irrespective of size of box, type of air button/bar and number of bass  I prefer to have the strap roughly where a watch  would be worn and fairly tight. The wrist and hand are  then totally free to articulate and reach all the bass and airbutton.  When playing I either remove my watch of wear it on my right arm.

george

Confused of Wendover here.

You say "I prefer to have the strap roughly where a watch  would be worn and fairly tight" yet you can reach the air button. Can't see how this is possible with say a Pokerwork

the air button on a pokerwork fits nicely in the  back of the thumb joint- at least mine does!

george ;)
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Graham Spencer on March 09, 2017, 09:03:26 AM
Sharon Shannon used to jam a squeegee-sponge thing in there..

I think she probably still does.....
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 09, 2017, 10:27:50 AM
Hi,

...  Incidentally, I much prefer the slot-type air button on my Hohners....


I mentioned to my fettler that I found the "Italian" style air lever, on my Saltarelle, less intuitive than the Hohner style button (which seems to operate itself, without conscious thought). He said it is an easy job to modify the lever to a button. Wondering whether to do it. The reasons I didn't JFD it are (a) that I wonder if the issue will disappear when I become more accustomed to it, or (b) is there an underlying error in  the way I hold/control the bass side, that presents the lever incorrectly to my thumb?
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2017, 10:57:17 AM
I've been brought up playing Italian boxes with the lever and find them perfect for me, to the point of having an old Hohner modified to have that type of lever fitted.
I tried an old Hohner borrowed from a friend and I found the Hohner one cramps my thumb, as I tend to bend the thumb at the first joint around the button and use that to pull the Hohner button down.
Whereas my Castagnari lever  I can gently feather often by using the lower part of he thumb nearer the base. I find it comfortable and easier to continually breath with it as opposed to gulping air and just all round better.
But.... it's what I learnt with so perhaps it comes down to what you're used to!
Q
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: AirTime on March 09, 2017, 03:47:37 PM
I've been brought up playing Italian boxes

Always know you were a better class of person than some of the riff-raff around here, Q.   ;)

I've had boxes with a variety of air button types. I find one gets used to any of them after some time of adjustment.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Daddy Long Les on March 09, 2017, 04:21:08 PM
Ok - my new bass strap setting was definitely too tight.  I opened up the new holes in my strap a bit and that seems to be spot-on.  It's amazing how a little adjustment like that can make such a difference. My thenar eminence is not hurting at all now!!  Thanks Psuggmog Volbenz, you learn something new everyday - now to slip it casually into the tea break conversation at morris practice tonight!  >:E
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2017, 05:15:55 PM
Airtime: after going round every stall at the Sidmouth festival, the Tommy was the only box not requiring Bulworker type pressure to function and was close to my concertina for response.
Your opening statement is of course true  ;D

Les: yes I find the difference between comfort and tight to be minimal. Glad someone else agrees!
Q
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: richard.fleming on March 09, 2017, 06:05:44 PM
Morris dancers tea break! Whatever next!
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2017, 06:13:38 PM
Nah..... Was off duty at the time  (:)
Q
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: george garside on March 09, 2017, 07:35:17 PM
Morris dancers tea break! Whatever next!

I wasn't aware that you could get alchoholic tea!

george ;D
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2017, 07:40:51 PM
OY You lot grrrr.....
you know me too well.....  ;D
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Rob2Hook on April 09, 2017, 08:02:08 PM
As I understand it, during prohibition if you ordered tea you got gin, order coffee and you got whiskey - both served in cup and saucer.  Nowadays you can only get coffee and pay as much as you would for a double whisky!

On the original subject, I like the velcro straps as they don't loosen in play, whereas the rotella type can.  Either type of air button can be operated with subtlety once you get used to them.  Worth noting that Hohner Clubs have the "Italian" type before they cut every possible cost and produced the Pokerwork.  Some of the bigger Clubs have two pallets linked to the air button.  They also had much better reeds with an impressive dynamic range whereas the Pokerwork tends to on/off unless carefully set by an experienced fettler.

Rob.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on April 10, 2017, 09:04:15 AM
Interesting Rob...... though when I ask for 'tea' I usually get Tetleys.... tea that is not beer!

I have a rotella wheel on one box that is played the most and it does seem to slacken slightly over the course of a week or two. I tweak it back up and off I go. The surprising thing is, the difference between snug and slack is a mere 2-3mm, judging by where to rivets in the strap enter the body of the melodeon. It really isn't very much surprisingly.
Q
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Rob2Hook on April 10, 2017, 10:49:09 AM
Sorry, yes the rotella loosens very slowly, but somehow it always tkes me by surprise when I whip it out the bag at the last moment and find my LH sliding around during the first tune.  The velcro type never moves and if you've lent the box to someone else it is literally a question of ripping it open and slapping it shut again around your wrist and it's perfect again.  I guess that answers the original question, just take up the slack around your wrist without winching it up tight and you'll be able to move if you want to yet the slightest flexure of the thumb  (cupping the hand) will lock you securely in position.

I went to a band practice the other day and was drinking tea (working early next morning) but found a hlaf pint of beer made a big difference.  Mid you, if you're actually thirsty it's better to have a tea or glass of water to quench it before you get a beer.

Rob.
Title: Re: Bass strap - how tight should it be?
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on April 10, 2017, 11:27:38 AM
Yes, Velcro does have distinct advantages, so long as you can get it just right.
as a perpetual driver..... the tipple when out dancing or playing at a session is coke  :'(
hey ho.....
Q
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