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Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: Martyn on March 20, 2017, 06:53:33 PM

Title: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Martyn on March 20, 2017, 06:53:33 PM
Hi All, what is the most popular C#/D bass and chord layout for Irish music please?

Martyn
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Lars on March 20, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
Almost like an A/D.

G major/G major
D major/A major
A neutral/E neutral (both 3'rdless)
F# minor /B minor (also often bith seen neutral)

Many boxes I see have the F#/B with major chords like the old Paolos had, but the players seem to dislike it. I always go for both minor, gives the best setup IMO for the most popular keys.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: gettabettabox on March 22, 2017, 01:27:02 AM
The above layout is certainly the contemporary popular one, but with reference to the part played in Irish trad by the Paolo soprani boxes, the G/G is often D/G.
....and that's how I prefer it, useless as it may seem!  (:)
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 22, 2017, 10:18:34 AM
I prefer the 'old' Paolo Soprani layout as well:

Top of instrument

           Inside    Outside

Chord    F#/Bm   A/E   
Bass     F#/B      A/E
Chord    D/G       D/A   
Bass     D/G       D/A   
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: deltasalmon on March 22, 2017, 11:28:49 AM
I'm aware of the "old" layout and I have the "new" G/G layout. I didn't know there was a difference when I bought my box but I can think of a few times when I'd prefer having a push G over a second push D
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 22, 2017, 07:41:04 PM
... what is the most popular C#/D bass and chord layout for Irish music please?

If you have a customer who is not certain about what he/she wants; then offer the layout that Lars has suggested.

This is Jackie Daly's layout on a 12 bass:

Chord   F#/Bm   A/E    
Bass    F#/B      A/E    
Chord   G/G       D/A    
Bass     G/G      D/A
Chord    F/C      C#/G#
Bass      F/C     C#/G#

On an 8 bass, dispense with the last four. If it's good enough for Jackie Daly......
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Martyn on March 22, 2017, 08:30:50 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice. The Jackie Daly layout seems to be the one to go for.

Martyn
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 23, 2017, 01:51:28 AM
... what is the most popular C#/D bass and chord layout for Irish music please?

If you have a customer who is not certain about what he/she wants; then offer the layout that Lars has suggested.

This is Jackie Daly's layout on a 12 bass:

Chord   F#/Bm   A/E    
Bass    F#/B      A/E    
Chord   G/G       D/A    
Bass     G/G      D/A
Chord    F/C      C#/G#
Bass      F/C     C#/G#

On an 8 bass, dispense with the last four. If it's good enough for Jackie Daly......

In fact Jackie has E/C# (push/pull) on the outside bottom buttons.

As far as Lars' suggested layout is concerned, I don't see any logic in having major thirds on one of the A chords and not the other. I'd go completely thirdless on everything.

I think thirdless chords just sound better anyway so why not go for maximum flexibility. You can play in Dm and even Gm on a C#/D box...

Minor chords? Although 99 times out of 100 your B chord is going to be minor, the other time it would be nice to be able to play a B chord against a pull D#, which the D natural in the minor chord would preclude.

Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 23, 2017, 02:46:16 AM
... what is the most popular C#/D bass and chord layout for Irish music please?

If you have a customer who is not certain about what he/she wants; then offer the layout that Lars has suggested.

This is Jackie Daly's layout on a 12 bass:

Chord   F#/Bm   A/E    
Bass    F#/B      A/E    
Chord   G/G       D/A    
Bass     G/G      D/A
Chord    F/C      C#/G#
Bass      F/C     C#/G#

On an 8 bass, dispense with the last four. If it's good enough for Jackie Daly......

In fact Jackie has E/C# (push/pull) on the outside bottom buttons.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 23, 2017, 11:51:32 AM
... what is the most popular C#/D bass and chord layout for Irish music please?

If you have a customer who is not certain about what he/she wants; then offer the layout that Lars has suggested.

This is Jackie Daly's layout on a 12 bass:

Chord   F#/Bm   A/E    
Bass    F#/B      A/E    
Chord   G/G       D/A    
Bass     G/G      D/A
Chord    F/C      C#/G#
Bass      F/C     C#/G#

On an 8 bass, dispense with the last four. If it's good enough for Jackie Daly......

In fact Jackie has E/C# (push/pull) on the outside bottom buttons.

I stand corrected.

My information was sourced here (http://squeezehead.com/keyboard-layouts/basses/LAYOUTS.html).
If you scroll down to the section on Jackie Daly's layout, he gives the following:

As a third example here's the bass layout Jackie Daly has installed in his C#/D Saltarelle box. This box has 23 keys on the treble side, with the (inside) D-row having 12 buttons, and the outside row 11. Jackie gets his very unique and recognizable sound by having a piccolo reed as the 3rd reed on each note, rather than the usual low octave reed.
He has a stop on the bass side of his box to take the 3rds out of the chords, so that all chords can be used as either major or minor.

Jackie Daly's C#/D box with 12 basses

(top of instrument)
outside   inside
chord   A/E   F#/B(m)
bass   A/E   F#/B
chord   D/A   G/G
bass   D/A   G/G
chord   C#/G#   F/C
bass   C#/G#   F/C


This set-up (the longer inside row) turned out to be a mistake, so Mr. D must have rejected the bass layout as well?
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 23, 2017, 12:04:07 PM
Pearse, I told Han Speek 12 years ago that his Jackie 12-bass layout was not current  (:) - if it was ever was.

Having a push C# and a draw G# would only be of use for playing melodeon style on the outer row, something I have never seen Jackie do, but he may have done in the past I suppose.

The E push is useful for playing in E maj ("B/C style D") which is something that Jackie is prone to, and in fact he told me that is why he has this layout when I asked him about it the first time I met him, in 2005.

The main use I think Jackie makes of the C# is to use the bass note as a very effective surprise leading note, probably mainly where you would normally expect an A chord. An example would be the last few bars of the 3rd part of The Bog Carrot. I heard (and saw) him use it this way in a slow air just last week.

So I don't know if Jackie ever had a box with C#/G# or, if he did, when he adopted the setup he has now. Sometime prior to 2005 anyway!

Edited to add: PS You can see Jackie playing a Saltarelle with a longer inside row at the start of the Sé mo laoch program that you pointed us to recently. It sounds as if it is LMM. But his main box, the blue Nuage with 12 basses, is MMM and has 23 buttons with the traditional longer outside row.

Jackie told me he gave up using piccolo voices on C#/D boxes because he found the small reeds prone to breakage. He has however an F#/G box in MMH.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 23, 2017, 12:41:55 PM
I have sent Martyn an alert!
I would not want to be responsible for inadvertently misleading him.

Stiamh, can you give us the definitive JD bass layout please?
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: hspeek on March 23, 2017, 12:50:18 PM

Hi Stiamh, Pearce,

My information was based on what Conor Keane told me many years ago (must have been 2000 or 2001), at the WCSS. He was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box which had these basses and he suggested that Jackie had ordered the same setup for his (then-new) Saltarelle. I was never able to get much information directly from Jackie - though I've met him a number of times.
Tunes yes, but technical info about his box(es) not so much. Of course, he is known to tinker with his boxes, so his setup is probably not fixed over a longer period...

BTW you probably noticed that I haven't updated my web pages in a LONG time... And to be honest, I have no plans to - just don't have the time for it.

Rgds.,

Han.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 23, 2017, 12:57:38 PM
I have sent Martyn an alert!
I would not want to be responsible for inadvertently misleading him.

Stiamh, can you give us the definitive JD bass layout please?

His current box has exactly the layout you gave, except for the E/C# in place of C#/G#.

I don't know whether the B chord is a minor - I rather doubt it, because I think he uses the stop to have thirds out all the time.

Han has replied while I was typing. Han, I fully understand the problem of finding time to update old websites, but I think you should make the effort to make this correction. I did write to you in 2005 to tell you that Jackie was then using a box with E/C# - and he still is!  (:)
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 23, 2017, 02:14:40 PM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Katie Howson on March 23, 2017, 10:05:39 PM
I have an old Hohner Erica converted to C#/D for me by Rees Wesson.

The 8 basses have the G/G arrangement noted here.

I’m basically a melodeon (i.e. one-row) and D/G player with a longstanding passion for the music of Sliabh Luachra, and have decided to give the C#/D a go. Initial thoughts are that D /Em / A are clearly going to be OK, Bm OK, just different. I thought I probably wouldn’t ever bother with G or Am on it, as it would be so different, but weirdly I find some tunes in G are coming to me fairly easily despite 40 years of playing English music up and down the row. At the moment I’m just trying to get a handle on the G# / C natural / Eb needed in a few interesting tunes, and some rolls. Not bothered about the chords just at the minute, so haven’t really been thinking about the bass end. Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

Martyn – was this enquiry prompted by looking at mine last week? It’s much much better now with the tweaks you’ve made, thanks.



Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Katie Howson on March 23, 2017, 10:07:41 PM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?


I want to hear that story, especially knowing both Jackie and Conor!
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 23, 2017, 10:57:15 PM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?


I want to hear that story, especially knowing both Jackie and Conor!

I just did a Google search and found this (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,505.msg5551.html#msg5551).
I hadn't come across it before, though I had heard about the incident.
I am almost certain that the same box "resurfaced" in recent years. I think it came up for sale somewhere but I can't recall where.
The last time I talked to Conor Keane, I didn't know about it.
I have met JD only a couple of times and boxes going over cliffs was not discussed!
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: gettabettabox on March 23, 2017, 11:09:15 PM
I have an old Hohner Erica converted to C#/D for me by Rees Wesson.

The 8 basses have the G/G arrangement noted here.

I’m basically a melodeon (i.e. one-row) and D/G player with a longstanding passion for the music of Sliabh Luachra, and have decided to give the C#/D a go. Initial thoughts are that D /Em / A are clearly going to be OK, Bm OK, just different. I thought I probably wouldn’t ever bother with G or Am on it, as it would be so different, but weirdly I find some tunes in G are coming to me fairly easily despite 40 years of playing English music up and down the row. At the moment I’m just trying to get a handle on the G# / C natural / Eb needed in a few interesting tunes, and some rolls. Not bothered about the chords just at the minute, so haven’t really been thinking about the bass end. Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

Martyn – was this enquiry prompted by looking at mine last week? It’s much much better now with the tweaks you’ve made, thanks.

The G on the push is occasionally useful against the D in Standard
G tunes and I think in some of the more obscure modal settings?
If you are playing a single row in G, you will normally have a
G bass and chord against the notes of G, B and D. The dominant notes.





Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Steve_freereeder on March 24, 2017, 12:07:27 AM
Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

I would say it's for the same reason that the push G chord is useful when playing in D on a standard D/G box - it supplies the subdominant IV chord, in the same way that you would use a C chord when playing a D/G box in the key of G.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 24, 2017, 04:38:04 AM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?


I want to hear that story, especially knowing both Jackie and Conor!

I just did a Google search and found this (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,505.msg5551.html#msg5551).
I hadn't come across it before, though I had heard about the incident.
I am almost certain that the same box "resurfaced" in recent years. I think it came up for sale somewhere but I can't recall where.
The last time I talked to Conor Keane, I didn't know about it.
I have met JD only a couple of times and boxes going over cliffs was not discussed!

It was for sale at The Button Box in MA and was discussed on here maybe a year ago. It had had a lot of repair work done and the scars were visible!
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Katie Howson on March 24, 2017, 08:42:11 AM
Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

I would say it's for the same reason that the push G chord is useful when playing in D on a standard D/G box - it supplies the subdominant IV chord, in the same way that you would use a C chord when playing a D/G box in the key of G.

Yes, I use the G chord a lot in that way on the D/G, against the B or the G. But these notes are are only available on the pull. When would a G chord fit with the D/A/F# - or G#/C#/F from the outside row - on the push?
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Katie Howson on March 24, 2017, 09:41:28 AM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?


I want to hear that story, especially knowing both Jackie and Conor!

I just did a Google search and found this (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,505.msg5551.html#msg5551).
I hadn't come across it before, though I had heard about the incident.
I am almost certain that the same box "resurfaced" in recent years. I think it came up for sale somewhere but I can't recall where.
The last time I talked to Conor Keane, I didn't know about it.
I have met JD only a couple of times and boxes going over cliffs was not discussed!

It was for sale at The Button Box in MA and was discussed on here maybe a year ago. It had had a lot of repair work done and the scars were visible!

Ouch! That was a lovely box. The story would be a good candidate for a book called Accordion Crimes  - if only Annie Proulx hadn't already used the title!




Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 24, 2017, 10:54:59 AM
Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

I would say it's for the same reason that the push G chord is useful when playing in D on a standard D/G box - it supplies the subdominant IV chord, in the same way that you would use a C chord when playing a D/G box in the key of G.

Yes, I use the G chord a lot in that way on the D/G, against the B or the G. But these notes are are only available on the pull. When would a G chord fit with the D/A/F# - or G#/C#/F from the outside row - on the push?

On a C#/D you need both a pull and a push G chord because two of the notes of the triad are on the pull and the other (D) is on the push. This is why we have both directions for A, too. For D major and minor, and for E minor and F# minor, all the notes of the triad are in one direction, so no need for a bisonoric chord. It would be nice to have a push B because of the note D in Bm, and I have that on my 12-bass boxes, and a push E because of G# in E major, and Jackie D has that on his 12-bass boxes (nowadays).
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Katie Howson on March 24, 2017, 11:04:40 AM
Why is the G push bass/chord useful when the G and B notes are all on the pull?

On a C#/D you need both a pull and a push G chord because two of the notes of the triad are on the pull and the other (D) is on the push. This is why we have both directions for A, too. For D major and minor, and for E minor and F# minor, all the notes of the triad are in one direction, so no need for a bisonoric chord. It would be nice to have a push B because of the note D in Bm, and I have that on my 12-bass boxes, and a push E because of G# in E major, and Jackie D has that on his 12-bass boxes (nowadays).

Thanks. Having seen some of your C#/D tutorials on YouTube, I guessed you could clarify it for me!
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Stiamh on March 24, 2017, 12:27:21 PM
(:) I forgot to mention B major among the chords for which we have all the right-hand notes in one direction. Not much call for it in Irish music but it's nice when you get a chance to use it. I like to sneak in a "Picardy third" of D# on the final chord of Bm tunes (my son disapproves when he is accompanying me on piano - he finds it "cheesy", or at least overused in my case). We also have all the notes of C major and minor in one direction, making that F/C chord on 12-bass setups a great boon.
Title: Re: C#/D bass and chords.
Post by: Pearse Rossa on March 24, 2017, 06:52:18 PM
... Conor Keane.. was then playing Jackie's Gaillard box...

Is that the legendary box that went over a cliff and later reappeared miraculously?


I want to hear that story, especially knowing both Jackie and Conor!

I just did a Google search and found this (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,505.msg5551.html#msg5551).
I hadn't come across it before, though I had heard about the incident.
I am almost certain that the same box "resurfaced" in recent years. I think it came up for sale somewhere but I can't recall where.
The last time I talked to Conor Keane, I didn't know about it.
I have met JD only a couple of times and boxes going over cliffs was not discussed!

It was for sale at The Button Box in MA and was discussed on here maybe a year ago. It had had a lot of repair work done and the scars were visible!

Ouch! That was a lovely box. The story would be a good candidate for a book called Accordion Crimes  - if only Annie Proulx hadn't already used the title!

"Melodeon Misadventures" has not been written yet I think.
You could include these two horror stories as well:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,20245.msg244562.html#msg244562
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,20245.msg244604.html#msg244604