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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 06, 2017, 09:32:51 PM

Title: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 06, 2017, 09:32:51 PM
Spent a really great day today at Sidmouth. While I was was there I checked out the melodeons in the music tent in the park (hello squeezy). Checked out Oakwoods, Dino Baffettis, Castignaris, mongst others. To my surprise, the box that shone out was the Black Diamond Olivia. A real delight to play (and no, I am not related to any of the proprietors family or employees, I had never met them before). Honestly , it was lovely. Anyone else get to try it?

https://www.blackdiamondaccordions.com/melodeons

 
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Gena Crisman on August 06, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
I did exactly the same thing, haha. I did play through black diamonds range and was generally impressed with them and had a nice chat with their staff. I was glad I did pop into black diamond but I don't think their boxes are my cup of tea.

I uh, don't really particularly remember how the olivia played, but I do remember playing it, mostly I remember their cardin box. That and when one of the bass button caps came unscrewed from their 2.5 row box and I thought I'd broken it!
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 06, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
when one of the bass button caps came unscrewed from their 2.5 row box and I thought I'd broken it!

(:)

Was it you that was trying out boxes with Squeezy?
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Daddy Long Les on August 06, 2017, 11:36:02 PM
Jon Loomes, who helped design and spec the two new BD boxes,  showed me round them and let me have a go. They both sounded very nice to my ears.
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: TomB on August 07, 2017, 01:16:56 AM
BD ? I thought it was some new fangled tuning system 'til I realised you meant Black Diamond   :|bl

Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: playandteach on August 07, 2017, 01:24:19 AM
3 opinions.
1: "shone out"
2: "can't remember"
3: "very nice"

Read the blurb and the mixing of brass and aluminium plates and waxless fixing is interesting. The site doesn't seem to have audio files for the top end boxes yet but I will be keen to hear them. One small website gripe is the use of melodeon.net quotes without using members names.  I think that it makes it seem to non melnetters that they have been officially road tested by staff members. Steve Freereeder is mentioned by name but most quotes aren't.
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Gena Crisman on August 07, 2017, 01:30:49 AM
Was it you that was trying out boxes with Squeezy?

I'm going to guess yes, as I was there for ages, twice! (Silver coat and big glasses and playing a lot of dino baffettis). Alas, another missed melnet connection!

Since this is a thread about Black Diamond, I was going to add that I was particularly impressed by black diamond's entry level box; they reminded me a lot of pretty much all the good things about the scarlatti nero and none of the bad aspects & pretty varied quality control I've seen when I've tried other neros in the wild. If someone doesn't like the 'oddities' of the more affordable hohners (especially if they haven't had their action limited) I do think I'd be much more confident steering someone towards a black diamond box than a nero.
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 07, 2017, 08:55:54 AM
3 opinions.
1: "shone out"
2: "can't remember"
3: "very nice"

Shone out is, of course, only a personal opinion. I did love the sound it made,  the way it played and the feel of it, though. As Les points out, the people at BD (have you really never tried the thirds apart system?) are very nice. They even came out and played and danced with us when we had an impromptu dance out outside the tent. That's not the reason for the mention though.
If you're wondering, it wasn't cheap (about £3kish).

Greg Bradfield-Smith
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 07, 2017, 09:08:54 AM
Was it you that was trying out boxes with Squeezy?

... Alas, another missed melnet connection!

That's it. Thought I recognised the profile picture. Put it down as a near miss, but no cigar.  I wandered past. Green face. Said quick hello to John. You were playing a few tunes a knew. I nearly asked if I could pick up another box and join in.  but it was pretty busy and I had to be back on the sea front by two. Came back later.

I agree about the Black Diamond starter box. Very playable (just an opinion, he adds hastily).

Greg
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: triskel on August 07, 2017, 12:34:58 PM
have you really never tried the thirds apart system?

There's British/English Chromatic, semitone apart system (B/C, C/C# etc.); Vienna, fourths apart system (G/C, D/G etc.); and Anglo/German concertina, fifths apart system (C/G, G/D etc.)

But thirds apart system?  ???

Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: playandteach on August 07, 2017, 12:40:27 PM
Maybe means thirds out?
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: TomBom on August 07, 2017, 01:52:50 PM
BD ? I thought it was some new fangled tuning system 'til I realised you meant Black Diamond   :|bl
Well, if BD existed it would be thirds apart ...
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 07, 2017, 02:36:47 PM
BD ? I thought it was some new fangled tuning system 'til I realised you meant Black Diamond   :|bl
Well, if BD existed it would be thirds apart ...

 :D
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on August 07, 2017, 04:11:54 PM
BD ? I thought it was some new fangled tuning system 'til I realised you meant Black Diamond   :|bl
Well, if BD existed it would be thirds apart ...

A minor detail....

Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Rog on August 07, 2017, 06:39:50 PM
have you really never tried the thirds apart system?

There's British/English Chromatic, semitone apart system (B/C, C/C# etc.); Vienna, fourths apart system (G/C, D/G etc.); and Anglo/German concertina, fifths apart system (C/G, G/D etc.)

But thirds apart system?  ???

I'm just trying to imagine a thirds apart system. So D/F# or G/B or C/E. it's too late in the day and I've been stripping and cleaning the reeds from a lovely old Hohner Verdi I...so I can't work it out.
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 08, 2017, 01:54:31 AM
I'm just trying to imagine a thirds apart system. So D/F# or G/B or C/E. it's too late in the day and I've been stripping and cleaning the reeds from a lovely old Hohner Verdi I...so I can't work it out.

Yes, I've been trying to imagine this too! I might experiment with a minor third apart system - D/F-natural comes to mind. I might see if I can temporarily replace the G-row reed block of a D/G box with an F-row reed block from a C/F box. The left-hand basses/chords will be wrong in part, but it might be worth doing just to explore what the right-hand side can do. Hmmm...  ;)
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on August 08, 2017, 08:16:52 AM
I bumped into Jon Loomes yesterday and tried the Olivia.
I'll have another go today as not in kit with no deadlines to go to.
It is really nice. He whipped off the bass end and the workmanship in the reed blocks etc was superb.  As said the  reeds are pinned in not waxed.
The casework is gorgeous and it's in Olive wood. It plays well and sounds good to.
It's very nice!
Q
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Lester on August 08, 2017, 08:24:52 AM
The casework is gorgeous and it's in Olive wood. It plays well and sounds good to.

The only olive wood box I've ever come across was heavy and I note that BD say the treble end reeds are on brass plates, again a weight gain on 'normal'. So is it a heavy box?

I also read on their website that 'Native Italian Olive wood has a unique tonal character'  ;)
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: bellowpin on August 08, 2017, 08:48:30 AM
I'm just trying to imagine a thirds apart system. So D/F# or G/B or C/E. it's too late in the day and I've been stripping and cleaning the reeds from a lovely old Hohner Verdi I...so I can't work it out.

Yes, I've been trying to imagine this too! I might experiment with a minor third apart system - D/F-natural comes to mind. I might see if I can temporarily replace the G-row reed block of a D/G box with an F-row reed block from a C/F box. The left-hand basses/chords will be wrong in part, but it might be worth doing just to explore what the right-hand side can do. Hmmm...  ;)

     you should have 4 keys covered?   at least.      F.C.G.D   .     a bit of cross rowing required,  a sort of half way house toward semi tone boxes .   the worse of both worlds maybe...brian..
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on August 08, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
Lester, it felt solid as opposed to heavy. The feeling you get when picking up a Castagnari or Beltuna
Q
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: george garside on August 08, 2017, 10:21:08 AM

  .   the worse of both worlds maybe...brian..


probably!
george
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 08, 2017, 12:28:07 PM
I'm just trying to imagine a thirds apart system. So D/F# or G/B or C/E. it's too late in the day and I've been stripping and cleaning the reeds from a lovely old Hohner Verdi I...so I can't work it out.

Yes, I've been trying to imagine this too! I might experiment with a minor third apart system - D/F-natural comes to mind. I might see if I can temporarily replace the G-row reed block of a D/G box with an F-row reed block from a C/F box. The left-hand basses/chords will be wrong in part, but it might be worth doing just to explore what the right-hand side can do. Hmmm...  ;)

     you should have 4 keys covered?   at least.      F.C.G.D   .     a bit of cross rowing required,  a sort of half way house toward semi tone boxes .   the worse of both worlds maybe...brian..
E minor and G minor should be fairly straightforward, B minor and D minor feasible but a bit more awkward.
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: playandteach on August 08, 2017, 01:12:07 PM
Why would you want to mess with your brain this way?
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tamba on August 08, 2017, 01:59:05 PM
We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. JFK
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: triskel on August 08, 2017, 03:30:02 PM
Why would you want to mess with your brain this way?

"... to boldly go where no man has gone before."  ;)
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: rees on August 08, 2017, 03:51:51 PM
Why would you want to mess with your brain this way?


There would be some crazy right-hand chords in there. I may have to try this just for a laugh.

D/F sessions might even take over from flat sessions. Hmmm ...............
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 08, 2017, 08:31:09 PM
Erm, I was only joking guys...Guys?

So what could the basses look like?


Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: bellowpin on August 08, 2017, 09:19:45 PM
Why would you want to mess with your brain this way?


There would be some crazy right-hand chords in there. I may have to try this just for a laugh.

      how about A / C ,   a tone higher??   might be more "English centric"  ??       we are getting way off topic !     just a mental exercise / pipe dream..     brian..

D/F sessions might even take over from flat sessions. Hmmm ...............
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: rees on August 08, 2017, 09:30:47 PM
Erm, I was only joking guys...Guys?

So what could the basses look like?

Full 120 Stradella  ;)
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on August 09, 2017, 04:28:22 AM
D/F is not an entirely unknown combination. For strictly up-and-down-the-row players (and there are a few around, at least in Oz), I have re-reeded several Ericas to D/F to accommodate long time owners of G/C boxes who wanted other specific key availability (the most commonly used keys here being F, C, G and D), but didn't fancy cross-rowing on a semitone apart system, or having their existing melodeons changed or replaced. Basses were also modified to fit the usual 3 chord trick relating to each row.

Some years back, the local Hohner agent imported a number of A/C boxes too, in response to inquiries from D/G owners. Unfortunately, the basses were in A/D (go figure...) which I had to fix up for their new owners.

While I was not terribly enamored with the idea of these tunings, and their limitation was obvious to me, I couldn't really see any value in declining such commissions and was always happy to undertake non-standard fingerings. (A G/A Club conversion was an interesting one I remember, which made a bit of sense at the time.....a sort of back to front Chemnitzer)

Apologies for just slightly off topic.... :-\
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: rees on August 09, 2017, 09:45:48 AM
I've converted a Double Ray to D/C for a local gipsy musician who wanted to play The Bluebell Polka without learning the B/C system!
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: triskel on August 09, 2017, 10:04:14 AM
I've had bad thoughts about converting a G/C to G/D, which makes a bit of sense because it'd then be in Anglo-concertina system and the G row would be nice and low, not all high and squeaky...  ;)
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: rees on August 09, 2017, 10:27:08 AM
I've had bad thoughts about converting a G/C to G/D, which makes a bit of sense because it'd then be in Anglo-concertina system and the G row would be nice and low, not all high and squeaky...  ;)

Dave Roberts (early Blowzabella) played a G/D but his G row was the standard high one.
Much confusion at the Castagnari factory!
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: triskel on August 09, 2017, 11:44:33 AM
I've had bad thoughts about converting a G/C to G/D, which makes a bit of sense because it'd then be in Anglo-concertina system and the G row would be nice and low, not all high and squeaky...  ;)

Dave Roberts (early Blowzabella) played a G/D but his G row was the standard high one.

Yes, I knew Dave in the '70s (pre-Blowzabella days, also Jon Swayne and Sam Palmer) in East London, though I never played his Hohner which (if I remember rightly) I was told had been converted from B/C by a previous owner.

And, come to think about it, you would need the low G row on the INSIDE, with the D row closest to the player, to be Anglo-concertina system. I was only on my first cup of tea and not fully awake when I wrote that...   ;)

Anyway, I've a D row on all my other boxes (C#/D, D/D# and single-row D) and don't really need to create another freak. I think the G/C could finish up as a G/G# yet!
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Rob2Hook on August 09, 2017, 01:21:23 PM
(A G/A Club conversion was an interesting one I remember, which made a bit of sense at the time.....a sort of back to front Chemnitzer)
Did you dot the reeds around randomly like the layout of a Chemnitzer?   ;)

Rob
Title: Re: Black Diamond
Post by: Malcolm Clapp on August 09, 2017, 04:29:20 PM
(A G/A Club conversion was an interesting one I remember, which made a bit of sense at the time.....a sort of back to front Chemnitzer)
Did you dot the reeds around randomly like the layout of a Chemnitzer?   ;)

Rob

The top row and the extremities, yes. >:E  >:E  Well, not quite as "random" as the Chemnitzer. More akin to the 7 button club inside row lay out, crossed with the top row of a 38 button anglo, i.e. accidentals plus a reversal or two.

And there is a (sort of) logic to (part of) the two main rows of the Chemnitzer, though I didn't know that at the time as I'd never played one; it was only later, when I got to own a Chemnitzer, that I realised it was reasonably close to what we'd achieved. If I knew then what I know now, I think I could have made a fair attempt at playing it, though it made little sense to me at the time. 

The fingering was worked out by the customer, with just a little input from me, mainly resulting from the difficulties of mounting certain sized reed pairings in the same chamber; I don't know whether he was aware of the Chemnitzer fingering himself.

So I can't be held totally responsible for releasing this Frankenstein into the wild.... I was only following orders, M'Lud.

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