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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: triskel on December 25, 2017, 11:22:14 AM

Title: Semantics
Post by: triskel on December 25, 2017, 11:22:14 AM
I know "the bird has flown the coop" on this one, and now all button boxes are described as "melodeons" in Great Britain, but it didn't always used to be that way and, though people may find it hard to accept, when I first became interested in our instruments there were distinctions made in England between button-key accordions, Vienna accordions/Vienna models and melodeons/melodions. Indeed I now have a prominent English accordion dealer's flyer from the 1960s (see image) that illustrates that perfectly...

It was current vocabulary that I learned off players and dealers then, not some historical anachronism or pedantry.

I wonder how, or why, they've all become known as melodeons?

(There could be a thesis, or a research article in this, for somebody... )
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Graham Spencer on December 25, 2017, 05:43:24 PM
Couldn't tell you the linguistic history, but I can say with absolute certainty that in the West Midlands (which didn't exist as an administrative unit then - Birmingham was still in Warwickshire) in the mid to late 60s when I started playing, accordion meant piano accordion and anything with buttons was called a melodeon.  At least in the circles I moved in........

Graham
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: george garside on December 25, 2017, 07:57:52 PM
when I started in the late 50's my double ray was sold as an 'accordion'  by a large Manchester accordion dealer. Melodeon was only applied to a one row box.  Maybe the generic use of the term 'melodeon' for any small button box gained popularity  with the coming of the DG setup.??

george
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: squeezy on December 26, 2017, 01:25:57 AM
Language is a brilliant dynamic thing.  Words mean what they mean because people who say them mean certain things ... it changes over time ... and they mean different things in different areas because of this.  Trying to preserve language in stone never works and I celebrate that fact.

Melodeon is the word chosen by those in most (but not all of) Great Britain to mean pushy-pully button accordions.  It didn't mean that in the past, and it may not mean that in the future.  In much the same way I never thought I'd hear the word "tea-bag" refer to something dirty - and "sick" definitely didn't mean anything good when "I were a lad".

We are all just old farts waiting to happen.  And then it happens.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: baz parkes on December 26, 2017, 03:02:20 PM
Couldn't tell you the linguistic history, but I can say with absolute certainty that in the West Midlands (which didn't exist as an administrative unit then - Birmingham was still in Warwickshire) in the mid to late 60s when I started playing, accordion meant piano accordion and anything with buttons was called a melodeon.  At least in the circles I moved in........

Graham

And in the Black Country...or The North West Midlands Industrial Conurbation as they tried to call it.. :|glug
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 26, 2017, 09:22:07 PM

We are all just old farts waiting to happen.  And then it happens.

That's better than being an old fart waiting to happen and suddenly find out it all happened while you were taking a nap.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Grape Ape on December 27, 2017, 02:09:53 AM
Squeezy, that is some well stated business.

Here in the states, I have to remember not to refer to it as a melodeon, as most people have no idea what one is, and the few that do picture something more along the lines of a pump organ. 


Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Rob2Hook on December 28, 2017, 09:51:31 AM
It always makes for a difficult conversation when someone asks what it is... and probably only out of politeness.  They're expecting a one word answer but instead get a potted history of the accordion family.

I was rather taken with the flyer.  Apart from the Soprani, there was no indication of the provenance of the other instruments and the terminology within the descriptions varied presumably according to the manufacturers' marketing blurb.  Basically seem to be low quality mail order instruments, though.  I wish they'd had a picture of the "waterproof satchel" to suit the Soprani.

Rob.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Mutt on December 28, 2017, 07:54:09 PM
Here in the states, I have to remember not to refer to it as a melodeon, as most people have no idea what one is, and the few that do picture something more along the lines of a pump organ.

Yup.  However, people in the States also tend to think anything pushy-pully is a concertina.  That's why I tell people I'm playing an "English Melodeon."  It's something they've not heard of to match something they've never seen, so they're usually satisfied.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Martin P on December 29, 2017, 10:00:56 AM
Following the lead of Mr Cutting (influenced by his French friends no doubt ), I try to describe my instrument as a Button Accordion. Professionally I have a similar dilemma being English. My job title is Optometrist but in UK I need to clarify this by adding “Optician”. Then just like Accordions I have to explain differences between various types of Optician. Anywhere else in English speaking world they would know exactly what my job is as an Optometrist. I know Engineers have the same problem.

I know it has be said before, but really this forum should be BA.net, but then we might get flight enquiries!
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Chris Brimley on December 29, 2017, 11:19:09 AM
Me too - it's an accordion, it's got buttons, so it's a button accordion.  That's all most people want to know. 

Of course, when the client comes up to you at the beginning of the gig and says, "What instrument do you play?", I could of course reply, "I'm glad you asked me that!  Actually, it's a ..... ", etc.

But somehow that never seems appropriate.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Gary P Chapin on December 29, 2017, 03:06:52 PM
Here in the states, I have to remember not to refer to it as a melodeon, as most people have no idea what one is, and the few that do picture something more along the lines of a pump organ.

Yes, I just received a query through my blog, someone wanting to know what to do with this "melodeon" they had gotten at an estate sale, but one of the legs had cracked ...? I let her know that it was a harmonium.

I always get the "so that's an accordion?" question at gigs. I say merely, "Yeah, there are a bunch of different kinds of accordion." Usually that's enough for them. Occasionally it becomes a cool conversation.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: pgroff on December 29, 2017, 03:38:33 PM
Here in the states, I have to remember not to refer to it as a melodeon, as most people have no idea what one is, and the few that do picture something more along the lines of a pump organ.

Yes, I just received a query through my blog, someone wanting to know what to do with this "melodeon" they had gotten at an estate sale, but one of the legs had cracked ...? I let her know that it was a harmonium.

I always get the "so that's an accordion?" question at gigs. I say merely, "Yeah, there are a bunch of different kinds of accordion." Usually that's enough for them. Occasionally it becomes a cool conversation.

Gary,

Actually, for some American reed organs, the name "melodeon" is correct and the name "harmonium" would be incorrect.   Depending on what she has, it's conceivable that an apology might be in order!

PG
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: mselic on December 29, 2017, 03:39:26 PM
Generally, here in Canada, if an instrument has bellows the average non-player would refer to it as an accordion. Melodeon is a term that might only be used by the odd Irish player referring to a one-row button accordion.  Otherwise, what we play would be called a diatonic button accordion, or simply button accordion.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: boxcall on December 29, 2017, 04:18:58 PM
Of course, when the client comes up to you at the beginning of the gig and says, "What instrument do you play?"
I usually hear "I like the sound of your concertina" Then I try to explain the differences and all the different accordion configurations until the glaze starts to appear in their eyes, then I figure my work is done :||:
The same thing happens when I try to explain music theory to most folks. (with my limited knowledge)

I've also been asked to explain to people at ceilidhs about the instrument I play, I keep it simple ( push get one note pull get another etc.)and call it a button accordion/ melodeon, enough said.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Gary P Chapin on December 29, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
Depending on what she has, it's conceivable that an apology might be in order!

Well, that's always the case for me!  :P :||:
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: brianread on December 29, 2017, 04:39:08 PM
Of course, when the client comes up to you at the beginning of the gig and says, "What instrument do you play?"
I usually hear "I like the sound of your concertina" Then I try to explain the differences and all the different accordion configurations until the glaze starts to appear in their eyes, then I figure my work is done :||:
The same thing happens when I try to explain music theory to most folks. (with my limited knowledge)

I've also been asked to explain to people at ceilidhs about the instrument I play, I keep it simple ( push get one note pull get another etc.)and call it a button accordion/ melodeon, enough said.

Saying that it works "just like a mouth organ" works quite well sometimes (I just had this conversation with my Sister In Law about 2 hours ago!).
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Winston Smith on December 29, 2017, 04:47:14 PM
Do you mean a "harp", Brian. That's what they seem to be called hereabouts, but I don't know why. (Sorry about any thread drift.)
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: triskel on December 29, 2017, 05:19:02 PM
Here in the states, I have to remember not to refer to it as a melodeon, as most people have no idea what one is, and the few that do picture something more along the lines of a pump organ.

Yes, I just received a query through my blog, someone wanting to know what to do with this "melodeon" they had gotten at an estate sale, but one of the legs had cracked ...? I let her know that it was a harmonium.

Actually, for some American reed organs, the name "melodeon" is correct and the name "harmonium" would be incorrect.   Depending on what she has, it's conceivable that an apology might be in order!

In fact if it's an antique reed organ on legs then it almost certainly is a melodeon. Harmoniums are usually bulkier and in cabinets that look rather like a chiffonier (sideboard) of the day - something I've seen contempoary references to.

And if it is a melodeon it will work on suction, rather than on pressure, which is the major difference between American organs and harmoniums.

The name melodeon was only "borrowed" from the small American organ on legs in 1878 by Campbell's of Glasgow, who started to describe the German accordions they were marketing as melodeons.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: boxcall on December 29, 2017, 05:48:32 PM
Do you mean a "harp", Brian. That's what they seem to be called hereabouts, but I don't know why. (Sorry about any thread drift.)

AKA-harmonica over here but that's another thread (:)

Brian, I've used that also. It's assuming they know how that works.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Graham Spencer on December 29, 2017, 08:01:52 PM

AKA-harmonica over here but that's another thread (:)


Of course, button accordions are frequently referred to as "harmonikas" in mainland Europe. In practice, I usually refer to my instrument simply as a "box"; but then in some circles "box" means "guitar".......

Graham
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: brianread on December 29, 2017, 10:13:08 PM
Do you mean a "harp", Brian. That's what they seem to be called hereabouts, but I don't know why. (Sorry about any thread drift.)

I guess I do - but I've never used that word (I played one from about 10 years onwards).
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: AirTime on December 29, 2017, 10:37:35 PM
I will generally describe my boxes as "button accordions", or "diatonic button accordions". Sometimes, with an interested (or unlucky) listener, leading to a lengthy explanation of the history of the various kinds of accordions. "Squeezebox" also seems an acceptable, colloquial description. 

The reality is, I don't want to be seen as an "accordion" player, which makes people inevitably picture a piano accordion, which I feel is an instrument very different in spirit from a diatonic button accordion. "Melodeon" means nothing to people in NA & would just confuse them. Regardless, most people I meet in NA assume that I will be playing some kind of polka music. I assume this is not the case in the UK.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: triskel on December 30, 2017, 02:08:51 AM

AKA-harmonica over here but that's another thread (:)

Of course, button accordions are frequently referred to as "harmonikas" in mainland Europe.

In German (and some other languages) both accordions and mouth organs are varieties of Harmonika, so you've the Handharmonika (hand harmonica) = accordion, melodeon and concertina, and the Mundharmonika (mouth harmonica) = mouth organ/harmonica/"harp".
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: boxcall on December 30, 2017, 02:29:11 AM
My barber who is Italian calls an accordion a Fisarmonica and harmonica is a Armonica, so I guess the Fis must = hand--armonica.
not that much different from the german really.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Jesse Smith on December 30, 2017, 04:33:53 AM
The reality is, I don't want to be seen as an "accordion" player, which makes people inevitably picture a piano accordion, which I feel is an instrument very different in spirit from a diatonic button accordion. "Melodeon" means nothing to people in NA & would just confuse them. Regardless, most people I meet in NA assume that I will be playing some kind of polka music. I assume this is not the case in the UK.
Yes, it's very much the same here in Buffalo. We have a long tradition here (mostly a thing of the past now but still very much present in people's minds) of Polish polka bands, real "Roll Out the Barrel" kind of stuff. I'm sure that's the first thing that comes to mind around here when people hear "accordion".
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2017, 08:45:19 AM
My barber who is Italian calls an accordion a Fisarmonica and harmonica is a Armonica, so I guess the Fis must = hand--armonica.
not that much different from the german really.
Not too good on Italian, but I guess the prefix 'fis' is related to 'fisico' = 'physical'; in other words a fisharmonica is one which requires physical action i.e. moving the bellows.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: rees on December 30, 2017, 09:34:18 AM
Correct Italian spelling of fisarmonica/armonica is fisarmoniche/armoniche. Pronounced fisarmonica/armonica not fisarmoneesh/armoneesh.

I often hear VA reeds, Voci Armoniche pronounced Voci Armoneesh (which I suppose it would be in French) :)
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Stiamh on December 30, 2017, 11:39:03 AM
Correct Italian spelling of fisarmonica/armonica is fisarmoniche/armoniche

let me fix that for you: correct Italian spelling of the plural of fisarmonica/armonica is fisarmoniche/armoniche.

i.e. una fisarmonica, due fisarmoniche.

The "h" in the plural form is needed to keep the "c" hard before an "e" (which it naturally is when followed by an "a").
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Sebastian on December 30, 2017, 12:13:52 PM
My barber who is Italian calls an accordion a Fisarmonica and harmonica is a Armonica, so I guess the Fis must = hand--armonica.
not that much different from the german really.
Not too good on Italian, but I guess the prefix 'fis' is related to 'fisico' = 'physical'; in other words a fisharmonica is one which requires physical action i.e. moving the bellows.
Fisarmonica is the italian form of the german Physharmonika, an early (and now obsolete) name for a pump organ/melodeon.

The word Harmonika was than mainly used for the Glass harmonica. Because the sounds in a pump organ are generated by a bellows and not by glass cups, Anton Haeckel choose the name "bellows-harmonica" to differenciate his bellows-driven instrument from the normal [glass] harmonica. Bellows is φῦσα (physa) in Greek ('physein' is 'to blow'). If you combine this with "harmonica" you get -- according to Greek contraction rules -- "phys-harmonica".
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: rees on December 30, 2017, 01:09:32 PM
Correct Italian spelling of fisarmonica/armonica is fisarmoniche/armoniche

let me fix that for you: correct Italian spelling of the plural of fisarmonica/armonica is fisarmoniche/armoniche.

i.e. una fisarmonica, due fisarmoniche.

The "h" in the plural form is needed to keep the "c" hard before an "e" (which it naturally is when followed by an "a").

Oops! Thanks Stephen.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: boxcall on December 30, 2017, 01:26:09 PM
My barber who is Italian calls an accordion a Fisarmonica and harmonica is a Armonica, so I guess the Fis must = hand--armonica.
not that much different from the german really.
Not too good on Italian, but I guess the prefix 'fis' is related to 'fisico' = 'physical'; in other words a fisharmonica is one which requires physical action i.e. moving the bellows.
Fisarmonica is the italian form of the german Physharmonika, an early (and now obsolete) name for a pump organ/melodeon.

The word Harmonika was than mainly used for the Glass harmonica. Because the sounds in a pump organ are generated by a bellows and not by glass cups, Anton Haeckel choose the name "bellows-harmonica" to differenciate his bellows-driven instrument from the normal [glass] harmonica. Bellows is φῦσα (physa) in Greek ('physein' is 'to blow'). If you combine this with "harmonica" you get -- according to Greek contraction rules -- "phys-harmonica".
Interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Rog on December 30, 2017, 04:53:27 PM
Have to confess to avoiding use of the word melodeon unless I'm talking to someone who actually owns one or is obviously clued up as to what it is (...and on my website). It avoids the inevitable question 'what's a melodeon' and my answer 'an accordion with buttons'. To PA players or novices I call them button accordions, so it is clear what they are. Also I have a mixture of 4th apart and semitone boxes on my shelves, and I think of the semitone box as an accordion anyway. But that is just me and I may very well be misguided (:)
Title: Re: Semantics
Post by: Sebastian on December 31, 2017, 12:29:15 AM
'physein' is 'to blow'.
Sorry, my mistake: 'physan' φυσᾶν should be the correct infinitive form. :|bl
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