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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 03:38:46 PM

Title: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 03:38:46 PM
I have trying for several weeks to play LH with 4 fingers not 3. As I play a 12 bass instrument this makes sense. But it’s proving very difficult and requires more mental effort than I seem to posses. However, I have noticed for years that when not in use, my LH index finger always rises up point away from the keyboard. Bit like a posh lady holding a cup of tea with pinky finger outstretched. (Does anybody actually still do that?). Anyway, any suggestions on finger control and exercises to change from 3 finger bass to 4. I suspect more practice is the only answer.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on February 04, 2018, 03:42:50 PM
When I had long motorway commutes I used one of THESE (https://www.amazon.com/DAddario-Varigrip-Adjustable-Hand-Exerciser/dp/B001OCGGEM) to strengthen my fingers. Might help you??
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 06:22:09 PM
I am amazed that such a device exists. Think I’ll stick to more practice on the box, but thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Chris Rayner on February 04, 2018, 06:27:48 PM
I learned using three fingers.  I have recently started putting myself through the Pignol Milleret course.  They insist on four fingers.  There are loads of exercises in the books which I have found helpful.  Sadly the short answer is relentless practice for hours.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 07:55:31 PM
Perhaps it would be better if novice players were taught 4 finger bass from day 1. I have said it before, but what is the logic of putting G basses on a D/G at the bottom when the players strongest fingers at the the top. Unless on is mainly playing in D, which seems to be case with ITM. Mind you, I also play a C/F box, but 99% tunes in Dm, so I use the upper bass buttons mainly that box with just occasional Bb bass. Back to the practice then.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: jikeym on February 04, 2018, 08:55:00 PM
I agree it would be best if beginners are taught to use all four fingers....(I can’t understand why anyone would be taught just to use 3 fingers as the restrictions must surely be obvious)?....Fortunately, prior to taking up the melodeon I spent years playing keyboard so it was perfectly natural and a seamless transition for me to use every finger available.
The other commenters are correct when they say the only way is practice practice practice....but it’ll be worth it especially with a 12bass as the four finger technique will minimise LH ‘travel’.
Stick with it!!
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 04, 2018, 09:01:40 PM
I didn't realise it was compulsory to use four fingers. Plenty of decent players don't. Some would argue there advantages to the three fingered approach. Just saying.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 09:10:13 PM
3 finger bass definately has a place. Like many others, my early mentor was Ed Rennie who taught the wonderful technique of alternating bass and passing Bs etc. Both done easily with 3 fingers, which may be why Ed teaches 3 finger bass to students I suspect. Plus the fact that many students struggle with 2 fingers! Mind you, I have seen recordings of old time players who use 2 fingers and of course Irish players who use none. Sorry to ITM readers.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on February 04, 2018, 09:24:49 PM
I have seen recordings of old time players who use 2 fingers

That will be me then. (:)
When I started playing 40 odd years ago two fingers was what people used so it's what I did. Until yesterday, at an Ollie King workshop, I never really felt the need to change mostly due to it being really difficult after 40 years to change. But I am now more convinced that if I want to break away from the 3 chord trick, something else that everyone did 40 years ago, I will need to progress to 3 fingers, not sure 4 is for me as I find the box really uncomfortable when trying to use my little finger.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: jikeym on February 04, 2018, 09:28:23 PM
I’m not suggesting it’s compulsory but I’m struggling to see how playing with 3 fingers is easier than with 4 (assuming the ability to do so is there) or how playing with 3 fingers has advantages. Perhaps someone could enlighten me ?
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on February 04, 2018, 09:38:49 PM
I’m not suggesting it’s compulsory but I’m struggling to see how playing with 3 fingers is easier than with 4 (assuming the ability to do so is there) or how playing with 3 fingers has advantages. Perhaps someone could enlighten me ?

Many people seem to have difficulties, myself included, with reliably using their little finger. If I have my left hand where it is comfortable and I can reliably operate the air button, when I reach for the C bass I invariably operate the G/D bass at the same time. I don't have this problem if I use two or three fingers.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Mike Carney on February 04, 2018, 09:45:46 PM
I’m a three finger bass man myself too and find it natural to play this way. I don’t find it hampers any of the bass reach, sequences or combinations. It feels the right way for me. And I am a confirmed cross rower who uses all four comfortably in the right. I suspect it is linked to the way I hold my thumb for the air button and has remained. Quite happy. Also a guitar player so used to using my left pinky too!
M
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 09:49:04 PM
Yep, it’s that reach for the C bass note (on D/G box) that is the killer. Fortunately I have long fingers and can manage it, just. Strange that using pinky on RH feels natural, but LH harder. Perhaps because like most, I’m right handed.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 04, 2018, 10:07:09 PM
I use three or four, depending on the situation. Use four fingers a lot more on a 12 bass instrument.  Never found the little finger particularly awkward (I'm lefty handed), but the third finger is definitely stronger and steadier.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on February 04, 2018, 10:24:01 PM
just a couple of thoughts  - are those who are having difficulty reaching the C bass on a DG box  getting their hand  far enough through the bass strap. To me the ideal position is for the bass strap to be roughly where a watch would be ( which is why I and many box players wear watch on right arm)  With the arm well through the bass strap   the fingers  bent into a sort of U shape so the tips of the fingers rather than the flats hit the buttons and movement between DG  and CC pairs of buttons is easy using 2 fingers, as is jumping between DG buttons and DA buttons or DA and CC buttons.

As to the air button/bar it doesn't matter which bit of the thumb presses it and I  catch it with anything from the bass of the thumb to the tip of the thumb depending what and where the fingers are doing the business

For those who prefer using 3 or 4 fingers , and there is no one 'right way' of doing it  the easiest way of strengthening the  3rd and 4th finger is to use them!

Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Ebor_fiddler on February 04, 2018, 10:37:46 PM
You are right George, as ever!  :D
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 04, 2018, 10:57:18 PM
Interesting comment from George because I have always played with bass strap over the back of my hand. Always surprises me when dealers at festivals ask one to remove ones watch when trying out boxes because my watch no where near the box. However, I do have large long hands which may account for the difference. However, in the spirit of improvement I will try George’s suggested strap position (after removing my watch). I know on French tutorials that they insist in emphatic Gallic way that bass strap should be across back of the hand, NOT the wrist.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: byteofthecherry on February 04, 2018, 11:14:47 PM
When I had long motorway commutes I used one of THESE (https://www.amazon.com/DAddario-Varigrip-Adjustable-Hand-Exerciser/dp/B001OCGGEM) to strengthen my fingers. Might help you??
Damm..you beat me to it..as a sax player(LH Ab/RH C/C#/B/Bb) 'n' finger picking guitarist(thumbpick + all four fingers) you need your little pinky(weakest/least independent) a lot...this really works, i use it all the time..takes about 4/6 months to full stength/finger dexterity and cures 'flyaway' fingers, you have to build up to it, carry it in your pocket to be used at any moment,  but the difference is phenomenal. What to aim for for the LH on melodion is to cover 4 bass buttons and practice trills between pairs, for the RH aim for scales in 3rds up /down the full rows.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Jesse Smith on February 05, 2018, 12:24:40 AM
I don't think I would have as much control over the bellows if the strap was over my wrist. On my Pokerwork the strap goes right across the back of my hand in sort of a line from my thumb (which is on the air button) to my little finger (which is helping to anchor my hand to the box).

Perhaps it is different on a less angular sort of box than the Pokerwork.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Mike Carney on February 05, 2018, 09:32:01 AM
I don't think I would have as much control over the bellows if the strap was over my wrist. On my Pokerwork the strap goes right across the back of my hand in sort of a line from my thumb (which is on the air button) to my little finger (which is helping to anchor my hand to the box).

Perhaps it is different on a less angular sort of box than the Pokerwork.
I agree. I have just had a look at my bass hand position on both my Laura and a pokerwork and in both cases I play with the strap across my hand, very comfortably and easily able to reach all bass buttons. I have heard of the other position but, I understood, for wider boxes. I suspect much is also to do with size and length of fingers. As G. often says there is no “right” way. It is more about what fits.
Mike
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on February 05, 2018, 09:33:36 AM
if the back of the hand is under the bass strap the hand has no sideways articulation whereas with the wrist under the strap  the hand will articulate freely in any direction and this of course includes , if using 2 fingers, rapid movement between  DG an DA basses if changing key or jumping from eg A bass to C bass etc etc.

On boxes such as pokerwork and many others without a rotella ( the little wheel to adjust the tension of the bass strap) some initial adjustment (by making different holes for the screws or maybe padding the strap)  may help.

personaly I use the 'wrist' position on all boxes from pokerwork/Erica up to 120 bass and find it adds to rather than detracts from bellows control. However like any change moving from hand under strap to wrist under strap will take a bit of getting used to.

But each to his/her own as  there  are no 'rules' to comply with

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: arty on February 05, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
I play with 4 fingers on the bass, it obviously has to be the most efficient way but I understand the difficulties and anyway, as many people have said, there is no ‘right way’.

However, something I learnt about finger control - I see a lot of players on YouTube, whose left hand fingers stick right up into the air, when not playing a note on the bass side. It is so much better if you can keep your fingers as close to the buttons as possible, when not using them, so that they are ready to play their next note/chord.

A way of correcting that habit, (as I was shown by a CBA player), is to put your left hand under the bass strap and in to the normal playing position. Then, put a small coin, (a 2p coin will do), between each finger, i.e. between the second knuckle and where your finger joins the hand. You then have to play as normal, without dropping a coin!

I was one of those, guilty of sticky-up finger syndrome and this trick cured me of that within a week. Really, I only did it a few times and it made me conscious of my left hand position until it quickly became habit.

Anyone got 6p?  ;D
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on February 05, 2018, 10:45:36 AM
or get into the habit of playing with the hand/fingers arched so the tips of  all fingers are always pointing down towards the buttons. This position also greatly facilitates moving around the bass buttons without catching unwanted ones.

It is also an absolute rrequisite  for playing stradella bass as with  up to 120 buttons using anything other than the finger tips would  create some very strange dischords 

Perhaps its because I play both 'melodeon' and stradella' bass that I   am at ease with the finger tip touch on both systems

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Taswindjammer on February 05, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
This is my first post. Older melodeon/button accordion players in Tasmania sometimes use a second shorter loop/strap on the LH. Secured at the bottom of the box at the same point as the main strap.
This loops around the left wrist. The idea being it takes the weight of the accordion whilst allowing the hand to rotate up & down the 8 or 12 bass buttons.
The normal LH strap does not need to be quite as taught, but enough to allow pulling the bellows in/out.
I tried it out on a 3 row Hohner 2 weeks ago and seemed to make sense to me. Have yet to set up this extra loop/strap on any of my boxes. Perhaps someone might like to try it out.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Sebastian on February 05, 2018, 12:06:10 PM
Older melodeon/button accordion players in Tasmania sometimes use a second shorter loop/strap on the LH. Secured at the bottom of the box at the same point as the main strap.
This loops around the left wrist.
Interesting idea. Could you make a picture of it, or do you know of a video where one can see someone playing with this additional loop?
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Taswindjammer on February 05, 2018, 12:23:54 PM
Still learning how to post etc on this forum. The owner of the accordion fitted with the loop is at the other end of our island but with technology I may be able to get a couple of photos. I’m unaware of any videos.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Chris Rayner on February 05, 2018, 12:27:50 PM
This is my first post. Older melodeon/button accordion players in Tasmania sometimes use a second shorter loop/strap on the LH. Secured at the bottom of the box at the same point as the main strap.
This loops around the left wrist. The idea being it takes the weight of the accordion whilst allowing the hand to rotate up & down the 8 or 12 bass buttons.
The normal LH strap does not need to be quite as taught, but enough to allow pulling the bellows in/out.
I tried it out on a 3 row Hohner 2 weeks ago and seemed to make sense to me. Have yet to set up this extra loop/strap on any of my boxes. Perhaps someone might like to try it out.

Yes, I have tried to implement this.  I started teaching myself at the beginning of the century, teaching myself using Roger Watson’s Handbook for Melodeon.  The guidance in this for left hand technique is sketchy to non-existent.  I was, in any case, more interested in sea songs than folk dances, so I soon developed a style different from the up and down the row common to many players, using a lot of cross row fingering. 

I put the instrument away about 14-15 years ago as work became frantic, and did not resume until six months or so ago.  My word, the melodeon world has moved on a bit since I started.   Loads more tutors, and, of course, t’interweb.  In retirement I am making a more rigorous attempt to learn, and so have been on a couple of courses and bought several books to learn.  I have also resumed playing the guitar, which went through a period of neglect.  I find that my left hand benefits from the guitar, lending strength and agility to the fingers.  At work I found myself using a keyboard more and more, so I taught myself to touch type.  I think that has helped.

I fear persistence and doggedness appears to be the key.  The rewards will come, I keep telling myself, if I live long enough.  In the meantime it’s fun learning.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Winston Smith on February 05, 2018, 12:30:51 PM
I'm sure there was something similar being discussed on here a while ago, when the main point was about the box sliding down on the wrist/hand, and stuffing a sponge or something under the upper section of the strap. I tried an extra bit of strap on one of mine at the time, and it worked a treat, IIRC.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 05, 2018, 12:31:17 PM
This is my first post. Older melodeon/button accordion players in Tasmania sometimes use a second shorter loop/strap on the LH. Secured at the bottom of the box at the same point as the main strap.
This loops around the left wrist. The idea being it takes the weight of the accordion whilst allowing the hand to rotate up & down the 8 or 12 bass buttons....

When I first went to playing a 12 bass box (rather than 8 bass), about six months ago, I would have thought this was a great idea. I could not play at all, my hand slid straight to the top of the strap. I could not reach the lower basses and I could not operate the air button. I have no idea how but, strangely,  after a period of fighting this, and almost giving up on it at one point, the problem just went way. I've no idea what I do differently now, but my left hand is free to roam all the bass buttons, the air button is starting to steer itself  and the struggle is a vague memory. I still have a problem getting my brain to cope with the extra chord options, though.

I think the key is to learn by doing.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on February 05, 2018, 12:38:12 PM
Guess Taswinjammer is talking about a set up similar to docEdocks pictures here

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/109066317276211351389/album/AF1QipMNBIU7rEqPgqfAGU61R09LZ_yr8UbxJyvtEl8Z?source=pwa&authKey=COWyt5qZq7KRnAE
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 05, 2018, 01:06:43 PM
I find the box slipping down something that happens when first playing it, i.e. having another box after changing from your usual one.
In fact have just encountered it myself recently.

I have meticulously copied the fitting from my usual box, adjusting the straps to get as close to the original fit as possible, though my new box is lighter and therefore has a different point of balance.

Then adjust the left hand strap.
With my Hascy, I do this with a wheel adjustment. Over the course of playing this can slacken slightly so if I feel it slipping I tighten the wheel. My point of reference is that it is ideally tightened when half the rivet head on the strap emerging from the body. When I can see the entire rivet had on the strap then it has loosened and needs tightening. The box also starts slipping down as described.
OK I have particularly small hands and wrist so everyone else will be different, but the point is, the difference between a firm strap with no box slippage and slack and it slipping is minute - tightening by 3-4mm?

My new box has a Velcro left hand strap, so once it's sorted it doesn't slip, though the strap leather does give a little being new. Again it is ever so slight between firm and loose.
I'm finding as Greg does, that after a while it doesn't slip as much. Perhaps getting used to a new balance point of a box is a factor too?
cheers
Q
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 05, 2018, 01:41:21 PM
The thing is, when I first got the bigger  box I tried every which way of strap adjustments and pads. Nothing made any difference. I developed a problem with the pokerwork so I was forced to play it and I came to terms with the issue by carrying on trying, mostly sat down, at first.

After a time (maybe a month, can't really remember), the problem went away, almost without me noticing. Now, the strap setting is totally non-critical. I am doing something that eliminates the problem, but I have no idea what  (:)
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 05, 2018, 01:56:04 PM
Could it be just getting used to the new box, it's balance and other idiosyncrasies?
It must be a similar thing if you change your car, it takes a while to get comfortable. At first nothing feels right but after a while.........
I do admit to being in a similar position with my box, and now a couple of months in it feels 'normal', after the initial strap tweaking and re-tweaking.
Q
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 05, 2018, 03:01:45 PM
Could it be just getting used to the new box, it's balance and other idiosyncrasies?...

Don't know. Something like that but, it wasn't just a case of feeling awkward. I couldn't play it at all. It's odd how the problem just went away.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Martin P on February 05, 2018, 03:24:04 PM
Re George’s suggestion of playing with bass strap across wrist. Sorry, I just don’t see how you manage that, unless you have a very short hands. For one thing, how do you use air button because with my hand my thumb is way past the air button. In fact, I found problem that the thumb side of my palm was pressing on air button unintentionally every time I pushed bellows. Not me me thanks.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 05, 2018, 04:00:47 PM
I just made four discoveries.

1. My hand needs to be through the strap well up to the wrist in order to reach the bass buttons and get any mobility.

2. I operate the air  valve with the bottom part of my thumb, almost the heel of my hand.

3. I only use my little finger when playing the chin end bass buttons. Can't see any advantage in changing this.

4. I am equally comfortable playing with my fingertips or the flat of the pads.

I would never have found out if it wasn't for this thread  (:)
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: malcolmbebb on February 05, 2018, 04:18:59 PM
Re George’s suggestion of playing with bass strap across wrist. Sorry, I just don’t see how you manage that, unless you have a very short hands. For one thing, how do you use air button because with my hand my thumb is way past the air button. In fact, I found problem that the thumb side of my palm was pressing on air button unintentionally every time I pushed bellows. Not me me thanks.
It works for me - but I do have short fingers relative to hand size. I really should adopt it.

The underlying problem is the lack of hand size adjustments on squeezeboxes - on size fits all. Or not.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 05, 2018, 05:25:24 PM
I find such threads always worthwhile as it makes me stop and think:

My normal strap position is where it lies across the back of my hand so the back edge of the strap touches my wrist bone. I have very small hands and wrists, in fact not met any chaps with smaller hands!
I play with 3 fingers but can use my pinkie on the G bass but it is a stretch for the C bass and I have little power.
I operate the air button with the lower part of my thumb. In this position I'm comfortable and press the bellows with the muscle or flesh below my thumb.

I've just slacked off the rotella wheel and slackened my bass strap on my Hascy. If I push my hand further in, so the strap is near or across my watch, then the air button is out of reach by my thumb so I would have to use the fleshy muscle below the thumb. My hand feels too far forward and that just feels wrong!
I can believe I'd attack the buttons with more upright fingers using my tips, but then my air button control goes. It doesn't feel right to me.
Just my thruppence
Q


Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Taswindjammer on February 05, 2018, 10:49:49 PM
Re Extra Loop/supplemental strap.
Lesters’s docEdocks pictures show the setup that I tried out on a 3 row Hohner 2 weeks ago. Interesting that one photo shows the hand supporting the box rather than the wrist.
I won’t seek to post additional photos as the link to docEdocks describes what I saw very well.
As I mentioned in my first post this setup was used by older generations of Tasmanian box players. These old guys new how to pump out a tune for Dances.
As I am now fully exploring the use of the LH I am looking to find the best setup for me.
Maybe as others have said, the use of 1 strap will all just come naturally. Heaps of practice I suspect, but hey , is there a better way to spend my retirement.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Anne Croucher on February 06, 2018, 05:46:52 PM
I'm sure there was something similar being discussed on here a while ago, when the main point was about the box sliding down on the wrist/hand, and stuffing a sponge or something under the upper section of the strap. I tried an extra bit of strap on one of mine at the time, and it worked a treat, IIRC.

Might have been me reporting on my battles with 'Roaring Johnny' - the Arriette in C - it definitely needs a support on the LH side - also, if I put the strap across the back of my hand there would be no way I could depress any of the bass buttons on any box, ever - a simple insufficiency of finger length prevents.
I have now got two shoulder straps, as the fixing point of the strap has been turned around onto the side and I plaited a strap onto it and tied it at the right length at the bottom, which I need to get used to in order to assess how the LH side needs to be got to grips with. 
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Jaz East End Gal on February 06, 2018, 05:54:59 PM
thanks for the tips especially hand exerciser which I have just ordered. Having now retired and joined a folk orchestra am playing more than ever, have noticed some loss of strength in finger especially little finger so hopefully this will do the job. 
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: byteofthecherry on February 06, 2018, 10:54:00 PM
thanks for the tips especially hand exerciser which I have just ordered. Having now retired and joined a folk orchestra am playing more than ever, have noticed some loss of strength in finger especially little finger so hopefully this will do the job.
What ever you do stick with it..it will take time..when you get it you will see how weak & non- independant your fingers are..start with three 'depressions' for each finger  do this five times..swap hands..repeat..rest..then repeat..do it watching TV/reading a book/driving(you'll only mainly do LH)..also sometimes leave it a couple of days to rest the hand, it will take you 4-6 months, but once you develop a routine it's great as is scales in 3rds  along rows & then start working out Xrowing scales in 3rds..six months..your good to go..Tex-mex(you might not like it) is worth watching as is a lot of south- american style.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Eshed on February 06, 2018, 11:48:11 PM
Since I have short arms and small hands, I've been using 4 fingers when the bellows are more closed and 3 fingers when they're more open as my little finger can barely reach the F (C in D/G I think) button.
I've noticed I sometimes do a part using 4 fingers and then the repeat with 3 fingers without even thinking, even when the bellows are not that open. I suspect my brain prefers to be on the safe side and not miss a bass note.

Currently I put the band on the back of my hand but I tried the wrist position and it didn't seem to be very helpful. Not having a joint behind the corner of the instrument is a bit painful to the forearm and that's without talking about how my playing deteriorated (and it wasn't that good to begin with).
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on February 07, 2018, 09:11:28 AM
just a thought - there are two schools of thought on how to attach the melodeon to the person - one strappers and two strappers and I am a strong advocate of the latter method  but am well aware that it is not for everybody.

To get to the point  If using two shoulder straps the    the wrist through bellows strap is only used to work the bellows  but not in any way to contribute towards the support of the box.  If using one strap it is probably more difficult to put the wrist through the bellwos strap as ?perhaps the fingers just coming over the top for the bass in some  way contributes to the stability of the box?

just a thought???

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on February 07, 2018, 09:47:42 AM
just a thought - there are two schools of thought on how to attach the melodeon to the person - one strappers and two strappers and I am a strong advocate of the latter method  but am well aware that it is not for everybody.
There are three schools of thought 2 straps, one strap, and thumb strap

To get to the point  If using two shoulder straps the    the wrist through bellows strap is only used to work the bellows  but not in any way to contribute towards the support of the box.  If using one strap it is probably more difficult to put the wrist through the bellwos strap as ?perhaps the fingers just coming over the top for the bass in some  way contributes to the stability of the box?

just a thought???

george
Not sure I agree that a single strapper uses the left hand to support the box any more that a two strapper does
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 07, 2018, 09:56:05 AM
I've always angled the box slightly so the bass end is very slightly down, to allow gravity to assist the opening of the bellows.
No idea where I picked that up from.... ( is that wrong, should it be horizontal? )
Therefore despite being a confirmed 2 strapper, the wrist strap does take a bit  of the weight when operating and especially closing the bellows.
Q
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 07, 2018, 10:32:08 AM
Hmm, I suspect we could come up with a few more strap possibilities, between us and then there's playing sitting down.

I wondered about this so I had a go a few options. It doesn't matter what I do, I cannot get anywhere near the bass buttons on the 12 bass    sunless I bury my hand up to the wrist.

I think the optimum left hand position must be a function of physique and box size.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Taswindjammer on February 07, 2018, 11:50:27 AM

I wondered about this so I had a go a few options. It doesn't matter what I do, I cannot get anywhere near the bass buttons on the 12 bass    sunless I bury my hand up to the wrist.

I think the optimum left hand position must be a function of physique and box size.
[/quote] Sorry Greg still haven’t worked out how to handle quotes.

I raised the matter of the supplementary strap on 5th Feb. Have today made a strap from double sided Velcro 48cm long with a button stud on one end. This plugs into the vacant bellows strap stud at the base of the box. Wrap around the wrist & secure via the Velcro. Works a treat.
Better still this is the first time I have been able to comfortably reach all 12 bass buttons on my Hyde.
Also used the strap on my newly purchased Castagnari Nik.Quite comfortable.

I’m going to continue with this setup for now.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on February 07, 2018, 11:58:32 AM
Twas just a thought   and I agree with Lester in that I also don't know whether or not one strap or two makes a difference to playing the bass????

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Howard Jones on February 07, 2018, 12:38:47 PM
So much depends on the size and weight of the instrument, the size of your hands, the number of bass buttons... It is a very personal thing and there can be no one answer for everyone, you have to work out for yourself what works best for you.  I've noticed that my left hand is further through the strap when I'm playing my 12-bass G/C then when I'm playing smaller and lighter 8-bass instruments.

The same goes for using 3 or 4 fingers to play basses.  There is a certain neatness to using 4 fingers to match 4 pairs of buttons, but plenty of 3-finger players can attest that it's not a handicap to playing complex stuff on the basses.  If your only problem is lack of strength and control over the little finger then this will come with more practice, but if you're really not comfortable with using 4 fingers then perhaps think again about why you're trying to do this.

Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 07, 2018, 01:06:29 PM
I agree with Howard, there are a huge amount of variables.
Also, as a 2row/8bass player I do wonder if I need to use my weaker little finger as I use my three to good effect but agree it is ultimately neater and appeals to me greatly!
The other evening I tried loosening the strap, as previously discussed, and also played around with using 4 fingers.
I was surprised how it came to me but my biggest hindrance was not reaching for the C bass but my preference for using my ring finger ( 4th ) and middle finger ( 3rd ) when pulling an Am or pushing a Bm ( no box in hand so think I've got that right ). Hadn't thought that would be a problem!
Maybe I'll go back to trying 4 fingers...... maybe!
Q
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 07, 2018, 05:35:37 PM
Um..... Back home and had a quick squeeze.
I find I do use my second and third finger when playing Am and Bm, it's just that it feels strange when trying to play with 4 fingers. The whole rotation and feel of my hand changes, it's not just the reach for the C bass.
Q
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Brian Wyneken on July 26, 2021, 04:53:34 PM
So much depends on the size and weight of the instrument, the size of your hands, the number of bass buttons... It is a very personal thing and there can be no one answer for everyone, you have to work out for yourself what works best for you.  I've noticed that my left hand is further through the strap when I'm playing my 12-bass G/C then when I'm playing smaller and lighter 8-bass instruments.

The same goes for using 3 or 4 fingers to play basses.  There is a certain neatness to using 4 fingers to match 4 pairs of buttons, but plenty of 3-finger players can attest that it's not a handicap to playing complex stuff on the basses.  If your only problem is lack of strength and control over the little finger then this will come with more practice, but if you're really not comfortable with using 4 fingers then perhaps think again about why you're trying to do this.

Looking for a discussion on "finger length" or "finger size" brought me here. I'm a beginner (so a little hesitant to assert opinions) who purchased an 3 row Hohner Panther on-line (without really any idea what I was buying - and then pretty much left it in the case) a few years back, and then more recently did an in store purchase of a more boxy shaped DG Delicia Popular. As some tunes are more easily played on the Panther, and some on the Delicia, I believe I have concluded that this is a result of a somewhat complex combination of (1) my hand and finger sizes, (2) the distances between the air button and floor end of the basses in the two instruments, (3) the larger bellows on the Panther (need fewer shots of air) and (4) and (perhaps mainly) Panther feature of a beveled corner on the left side to reach the basses. An example is that on the Panther, playing with four fingers is feasible, but I would say not likely possible for me on the Delicia.

With now knowing this I wish I would have paid closer attention to the dimensions and distances in purchasing this second box. I sort of felt rushed in the store as a COVID exception was allowed (they were not yet typically allowing customers). I plan/hope to make a more serious purchase after about a year of practice. Anyway, this is just a comment I thought other novice purchasers might find useful.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 26, 2021, 09:06:18 PM
For what it's worth, I think if you play it more your fingers and brain will learn to adapt to the differences and you'll forget you ever had a problem with key spacing.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Peadar on July 27, 2021, 12:09:51 AM
Interesting thread.....funny how a thread revival can just catch the stage you are at. Taking a side long glance as always - On a Vienna Box I really haven't got beyond two fingers (1st & 2nd)- On a German Type 1 row- 2 fingers:(1st and 4th). On a German Type Semi-tone box - 4 fingers (4th & 1st) for the outside (3rd & 2nd) for inside.
Over the last few months I have become relatively comfortable cradling rather than gripping the growl box in my left hand, and in spite of small hands the pad of my thumb just seems to land on the air spoon when it's needed (at least some of the time). Playing basses on these (4 bass) boxes is more like ringing a peal of only four bells than it is to playing a harmonic accompaniement. your fingers don't actually go anywhere- they just stay resting on the spoon keys till you really need them.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on July 27, 2021, 04:29:17 PM
For what it's worth, I think if you play it more your fingers and brain will learn to adapt to the differences and you'll forget you ever had a problem with key spacing.

tgotally agree!

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on July 27, 2021, 04:43:50 PM
on a 1.2. or 3 row melodeon / button accordion  any lenght of fingers should easily reach all buttons ----provided they are free to do so!

Opinion on how to keep the keyboard stable seems to be divided more or less 3 ways

1.use two shoulder straps on 2 or 3 row boxes so the right hand plays absolutely no part in keeping the keyboard steady, the thumb can rest gently on the edge of the keyboard ( to locate the hand rather than to steady the instrument)  and the fingers are free to fly around according to the dictates of the particular tune being played

2. use a thumb longish strap  so the thumb can be easily held against the edge of the keyboard whilst in the thumb strap  , leaving the fingers to fly about as necessary

3. keep the thumb UNDER the keyboard  so the rest of the fingers have the dual function of hanging on to the keyboard (the so called death grip)  whilst not making a very good job of flying around the buttons as needed.

my personal preference is number 1 for 2 or 3 row boxes irrespective of size and weight  and number 2   for  a one row  playing seated
 
each to his own of course but I would recommend beginners to try all 3 before making a adecision.

george

























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Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on July 27, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
3. keep the thumb UNDER the keyboard  so the rest of the fingers have the dual function of hanging on to the keyboard (the so called death grip)  whilst not making a very good job of flying around the buttons as needed.
But having the thumb behind the keyboard does not require you to use fingers to hang onto the keyboard. The single strap prevents the melodeon going left (from the players point of view) and the palm of her hand prevents it going right, all the time allowing the fingers to fly around the buttons as required.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Jesse Smith on July 27, 2021, 06:27:43 PM
3. keep the thumb UNDER the keyboard  so the rest of the fingers have the dual function of hanging on to the keyboard (the so called death grip)  whilst not making a very good job of flying around the buttons as needed.
But having the thumb behind the keyboard does not require you to use fingers to hang onto the keyboard. The single strap prevents the melodeon going left (from the players point of view) and the palm of her hand prevents it going right, all the time allowing the fingers to fly around the buttons as required.

I agree, the keyboard should be braced by the "heel" of the hand, not gripped by the fingers or thumb. Also, there's no need to stay locked into one position. You can put your thumb on the edge in order to play a particularly stretched out passage, and then bring your thumb behind the keyboard when you want to give a bit more oomph to a beat, etc.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Chris Ryall on July 27, 2021, 08:23:50 PM
I play a 4.3kg 3 row and generally use weight of box, and thumb in keyboard groove against a single rt strap to stop wobbles. It works fine, with occasional transfer to heel of hand if I need … other fingers in play, not sure why I do that, it just happens!

I do play in all 3 rows, generally legato  and 3/4 at least on the pull however. A good French player (of bass clarinet) once advised that I move my rt wrist too much. But I get by.

“If you play that style” then … I find this works just fine. It you like 2 straps … it doesn’t matter?

I think I’d be in there with the death drip at times in any furious 2 row session tunes.

@George. What an expansive post! 😉 Don’t understand those ‘1’s?

Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Brian Wyneken on July 27, 2021, 08:56:23 PM
I reviewed my post at #52 and can see that it wasn’t very clear . . . I was writing of the bass (left) side and the difference between the beveled Hohner Panther and the more “boxy” Delicia. For both, the treble buttons seem about the same insofar as the size of my hand affects playing (very little as the hand can freely as necessary). The bass end seems more significant in terms of hand size as the strap seems clearly intended to keep the hand in a steady position. I prefer to use the end of my thumb (versus the joints) for the air button as this seems to allow better control of the extra air function. If I do that on the Delicia, however, I cannot reach the floor end inner bass buttons with a fourth finger. In contrast, even though the Panther has the 12 bass/chord buttons versus the 8 on the Delicia, I can reach the floor end buttons with my 4th (pinky) finger on the Panther. I’m attributing this mainly to the beveled shape on the bass side of the Panther. This strikes me as a significant feature (that perhaps is more common on the plastic boxes?).
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: george garside on July 28, 2021, 12:07:15 AM
I find that having the left arm throu;gh the bass strap so that the strap is roughly in the same position on the wrist as a watch strap woould be  provides sufficient wrist articulation to play 8 or 12 bass and take care of the air button or bar.

for this reason i keep my watch on my right wrist

george
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Brian Wyneken on July 28, 2021, 01:12:54 AM
I find that having the left arm throu;gh the bass strap so that the strap is roughly in the same position on the wrist as a watch strap woould be  provides sufficient wrist articulation to play 8 or 12 bass and take care of the air button or bar.

for this reason i keep my watch on my right wrist

george

Thank you! I gave this a try (to include removing the wrist watch) - it definitely provides plenty of finger reach, but my attempt at this technique was thwarted by the lack of an adjustable wrist strap (my air button is stuck against the fleshy part below my thumb). I'm thinking about making my own adjustable strap as our local melodeon wrist strap factory must have gone out of business.

In watching videos of melodeon players I'm seeing a variety of techniques on the depth of hand/wrist into the strap. One thing that seems fairly consistent is operating the air button at or close to the first knuckle of the thumb. I also found that a few minor shoulder strap adjustments repositioned by elbow and added to my ability to reach floor end bass buttons. Lots of variables that can add to or ease difficulty.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Chris Ryall on July 28, 2021, 09:26:03 AM
You need you left arm strap correct to a mm or so. Your arm will tell you what works

If there’s no adjust dial, take the attachment ferule off and attack the leather. Had to do that with my first melodeon
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Lester on July 28, 2021, 09:29:32 AM
You need you left arm strap correct to a mm or so.
Sorry to be disagreeing with everyone but this is hyperbole.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Theo on July 28, 2021, 09:40:40 AM
We are all different and you need to find a way of holding the box that works for *you*.  You will very likely find that what works now is no longer the best after 6 months or a year or more.  For example I changed my hold quite radically a couple of years ago,  after 20+ years of playing. I won’t share the details because it probably wouldn’t be helpful.

Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 28, 2021, 09:57:57 AM

Thank you! I gave this a try (to include removing the wrist watch) - it definitely provides plenty of finger reach, but my attempt at this technique was thwarted by the lack of an adjustable wrist strap (my air button is stuck against the fleshy part below my thumb). I'm thinking about making my own adjustable strap as our local melodeon wrist strap factory must have gone out of business.


Sounds like you are fighting the instrument(s) rather than working with them. Your body can learn to work with an awful lot of variety in terms of strap setup, key position (including air button), case shaping and the like. If you relax a bit and keep working at it your struggles will become a thing of the past. As Theo says, you'll develop different solutions as your playing develops.

fwiw I find, with Hohners, the air button sits on the fleshy part of the base of my thumb, as you describe. It's a pretty good place for it to be. I find that much more natural than trying to use the tip of my thumb. Mind you, I'd been playing a couple of years before I actually realised that was what I did.
Title: Re: Finger control
Post by: Julian S on July 28, 2021, 12:18:17 PM
Remember, what works on one instrument doesn't always translate to another. Size of box makes a huge difference - if I had the bass strap in wrist watch position on my Saltarelle, that would be great for bass buttons but would mean I couldn't use the air button. This is partly because the strap is postioned in the middle - on my Dony and Mory it's closer to the back of the box. That, and the larger size of these boxes means that the strap is closer to the wrist watch position and is comfortable for using all the buttons.

Julian
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