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Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on May 25, 2018, 06:37:16 PM

Title: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on May 25, 2018, 06:37:16 PM
What is the best way to go about stopping the bellows frame corners from leaking, and with what?
(From the bellows side, not the body side)

Sir John
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: MikeK on May 25, 2018, 11:42:08 PM
I've managed to stop such leaks by brushing a small amount of PVA in between the inside of the bellows and the frame.
I also let slightly diluted PVA seep into the outside corners and wipe with a damp cloth to clean up.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: MarioP on May 26, 2018, 03:37:42 AM
Have you replaced the seal gaskets yet? You may have to do inside and boarders sealing like on my club and old beat up PreCorona ...
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Theo on May 26, 2018, 09:26:24 AM
For this application superglue works better than pva because will penetrate the full depth of the joint by capillary action. 
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: diatonix on May 26, 2018, 10:25:33 AM
For this application superglue works better than pva because will penetrate the full depth of the joint by capillary action.

That may be true, but I never encourage unexperienced customers to use superglue. The road to catastrophe is short...
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Rog on May 26, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
My solution is a temp card spatula, PVA, and a damp cloth to clean up.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: invadm on May 26, 2018, 04:39:50 PM
why not take off the frame clean,paint than glue it back Sir John? you'll have a shiny new bellows  ;) 
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: tirpous on May 26, 2018, 07:59:39 PM
Is the leak between the frame and bellows or in the corner joint between the 2 wooden pieces ?
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: John MacKenzie (Cugiok) on May 30, 2018, 02:59:48 PM
I've cured it thanks. I brushed a generous amount into each inside corner, and into the wood joints too, just for luck. Much better now.

Sir John
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: MarioP on June 02, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Just for the giggles and if you want to go the extra mile I put another cheap fix and insulating in case your box still leaks from the gaskets or even strap holders holes etc: https://youtu.be/Bq5GwMAIQaA
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: diatonix on June 02, 2018, 04:32:39 PM
Just for the giggles and if you want to go the extra mile I put another cheap fix and insulating in case your box still leaks from the gaskets or even strap holders holes etc: https://youtu.be/Bq5GwMAIQaA

Could you please explain what this is supposed to be good for? I hope you only do this to your own instruments...
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Theo on June 02, 2018, 05:30:47 PM
In UK we call that sort of thing a bodge.  A lazy way of trying to cover up a problem instead of identifying the real problem and fixing it permanently.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Lester on June 02, 2018, 05:49:11 PM
In UK we call that sort of thing a bodge.  A lazy way of trying to cover up a problem instead of identifying the real problem and fixing it permanently.

The use of 'bodge' in this manner annoys me as I live in the Chilterns where Bodging was a skilled trade of making chair legs on pole lathes in the Chiltern woodlands to supply the chair makers in High Wycombe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP5_OJxNccY

There I feel better now  (:)
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Theo on June 02, 2018, 05:57:17 PM
Sorry Lester, yes you are quite right.  I should have said botch!
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Lyra on June 02, 2018, 11:06:52 PM
Could you please explain what this is supposed to be good for? I hope you only do this to your own instruments...

erm

Just for the giggles
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: MarioP on June 02, 2018, 11:32:56 PM
Just for the giggles and if you want to go the extra mile I put another cheap fix and insulating in case your box still leaks from the gaskets or even strap holders holes etc: https://youtu.be/Bq5GwMAIQaA

Could you please explain what this is supposed to be good for? I hope you only do this to your own instruments...

I do 🤣
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 02, 2018, 11:38:27 PM
Just for the giggles and if you want to go the extra mile I put another cheap fix and insulating in case your box still leaks from the gaskets or even strap holders holes etc: https://youtu.be/Bq5GwMAIQaA

Could you please explain what this is supposed to be good for? I hope you only do this to your own instruments...

I do 🤣

I'm writing a new tune called The Humours of MarioP

 ;D
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Lyra on June 03, 2018, 12:34:55 AM
I hoe you'll tape it for us when its done  >:E
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Gena Crisman on June 06, 2018, 09:00:33 PM
Hello, I think I'm having an issue like this too, here are some photos, as I'm not sure quite how similar it is to the original problem that was posted about:

(http://i.imgur.com/tvXfAIcm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/tvXfAIc)
(http://i.imgur.com/B3YUZ0dm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/B3YUZ0d)

I've been noticing that the instrument hasn't felt *quite* as air tight as it has been previously, but had put it down to my monkeying with the keyboard to loosen some very tight key armatures. This, however, is definitely leaking air when pushed - tracked it down by following the sound of air, although it was right in front of me the whole time. Some of the other corners look a little dubious, but nothing as clearly a problem as the above shown.

PVA seemed to be the way to go for OP, but, I believe there's a variety of different flavours of it, including water soluble and water resistant varieties for wood, as well as book binders. Advice?

(Instrument is a Black Pearl II, for reference, and has seen a little rain in its time.)
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: rees on June 06, 2018, 09:25:10 PM
Resin W woodworking glue will do it.
Remove bellows.
Gently work glue into the gap with a spatula or small brush. Not too thick as there will be some squeeze out.
Clamp the bellows corner to the frame with a clothes peg, bulldog clip, whatever.
Carefully wipe off excess glue with a damp sponge.
Leave overnight.

Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Gena Crisman on June 06, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
Resin W woodworking glue will do it.

So, this translates to me to 'name brand PVAish wood glue', is that right? (The makers say that the thing that it has in it is Vinyl Acetate Polymer emulsion). If I for example walk over to my local hardware store tomorrow, they might carry a range of Resin W (https://diy.evo-stik.co.uk/products/repair-adhesives/wood-adhesives) labeled glues by Evo-Stik (or also none at all). But, I assume that I should a) not worry about seeking out allegedly flexible glues since this use case doesn't really need it and b) avoid water/weather proof glues where possible since, ok, dampness will make the regular glue come off, but that's going to mess up other stuff on the instrument anyway and it closes the door on getting in/opening it back up that way in the future. So - does any PVA-like wood glue sound ok, or do you really specifically recommend this make?

I have some small brushes and should be able to get some clothes pegs and should be able to follow the rest of the steps. Investigation suggests that 5 or 6 of the corners seem to be pulling away, seemingly because the glue has pulled the paint off of the frame? Should I attempt to remove existing glue in any fashion or just juice up the holes with new glue and clamp over night.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Chris Ryall on June 07, 2018, 07:41:15 AM
For this application superglue works better than pva because will penetrate the full depth of the joint by capillary action.

My Gaillard started to leak there 😳 but … Theo lives near my Mum and repaired it over a weekend using the aformentioned super glue.

Perfect fix 😀
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Theo on June 07, 2018, 08:29:36 AM
Vinyl Acetate Type glues will be fine.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Gena Crisman on June 09, 2018, 07:15:45 PM
Resin W woodworking glue will do it.
Remove bellows.
Gently work glue into the gap with a spatula or small brush. Not too thick as there will be some squeeze out.
Clamp the bellows corner to the frame with a clothes peg, bulldog clip, whatever.
Carefully wipe off excess glue with a damp sponge.
Leave overnight.

Just wanted to add, followed this advice, seems to have done the job! I used a brush and a narrow metal encouraging tool I usually use to lift / support reeds to get glue into some of the very narrow gaps. Pegged it up, wiped off the squeezed out glue and left overnight as advised. All secured back on now, thanks.
Title: Re: Air leak from frame corners
Post by: Graham Spencer on June 09, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
I hoe you'll tape it for us when its done  >:E

Tape?? Can you still buy that??  >:E
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