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Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Garry Probert on May 27, 2018, 05:07:40 PM

Title: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 27, 2018, 05:07:40 PM
Hi guys bought this today looked rather sad and neglected ,it says steel bronze reeds and made in germany but no other markings figured £10 as an wall hanger i have no idea of age any info would be appreciated
thanks
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Barry Tolson on May 27, 2018, 08:27:09 PM
Looks a lot like an old Klingenthaler to me. Very similar to one I repaired for a friend some time ago.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 27, 2018, 10:04:57 PM
Hi barry thanks for the info had a peek inside looks to be in good condition all reeds sound ,hadn't considered repairing
 it has reed plates like a harmonica big sound and "Klingenthaler" interesting might be worth dibbling with
any idea of age ? 
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on May 27, 2018, 10:29:58 PM
Don't trust the klingenthalers Jim. they're not our kind of people
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Broadland Boy on May 27, 2018, 10:51:25 PM
Bet they don't sound like DTN & Jimbo either Greg  - I canny get any more sound out of it Captain, the Copydex is coming off the bellows tape  :(
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Eshed on May 27, 2018, 10:53:39 PM
If I squeeze'er anymore she'll blow!
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Winston Smith on May 27, 2018, 11:26:58 PM
The Costalotti players amongst us might say "It's a melodeon, Jim, but not as we know it!"
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Martyn on May 28, 2018, 12:00:14 AM
Hi guys bought this today looked rather sad and neglected ,it says steel bronze reeds and made in germany but no other markings figured £10 as an wall hanger i have no idea of age any info would be appreciated
thanks
Looks like you got a bargain there.
They usually sell for £30-£60 in antique centers and the like.
They are never going to be great players because they weren't great when they were new.
This one looks quite a late example of its type and I'm guessing somewhere between 1910 - 1920 but I'm sure someone will know better than me.

Martyn

Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Winston Smith on May 28, 2018, 12:19:53 AM
£30 to £60? Honestly, I'm astonished, the buyers must have too much money in their pockets!
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 01:07:12 AM
Hi guy thanks for the info and cabaret
I make compensated banjo bridges so am always on the lookout for vintage ebony and vintage maple
and especially my beloved nettlefold roundhead brass nickel plated screws lol 
I bought a vintage rock maple drawbox for £4 must be a couple of years ago that i,m still using

£1 for the old brush set to me was a bargain and the melodeon was in the same box
as it's not really worth repairing strip and perhaps another project along with all the others I have lol
and the mini liliput is still waiting completion
so little time so much to do   
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: triskel on May 28, 2018, 06:07:24 AM
Looks a lot like an old Klingenthaler to me.

I think it's an old Zwotan to be precise (Zwota being one of the old villages, at the southern end, that went to form the town of Klingenthal) and almost certainly a product of the Gebrüder Ludwig factory there. It's very hard to tell in the photo, but are the three bellows dividers red Garry? (They usually are on a Ludwig.)

That gold design in the corners of the soundboard is one they started to use towards the end of the 1930s (when the great Cajun player Joe Falcon bought his last new accordion, a steel-reeded "Eagle Brand", like that) though more usually in conjuntion with a rounded-end keyboard, and they continued to use both those features up until the beginning of the 1970s when I bought my Parsifal one (an old Ludwig brand, and my first new melodeon, in Manchester) like that for the grand sum of 8 guineas (£8.40), which was then less than half the £17 ,, 10s (£17.50) price of a Hohner 114... :(
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: triskel on May 28, 2018, 06:37:10 AM
I make compensated banjo bridges so am always on the lookout for vintage ebony and vintage maple

Interesting! I do a good bit with Irish-tuned (GDAE) tenor banjos, but these days the majority of players are going more for the tone of a wound second string - which needs very different compensation because the core wire is so thin. Have you tried making bridges compensated for a wound second string?

And Spock was wondering if you also do them for 5-string? (Him and the Captain are partial to a bit of bluegrass... )

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Spock%20banjo.jpg)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/kirk%20mandolin.jpg)

Quote
and especially my beloved nettlefold roundhead brass nickel plated screws lol

I've old boxes of steel, aluminium, brass, Venetian blued and chrome plated, but no nickel plated ones I'm afraid! :(   

Quote
so little time so much to do   

Tell me about it!!! ::)
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 09:52:08 AM
Hi triskel a side pic of the bellows ..........bridges a passion  for over 40 years ,have two vintage Miltons left from a box bought in the 80s  no idea where they sorced them but wonderful ,have some old vega perch poles I use for best,many banjo players seem to overlook
the importance of the bridge unlike the string comunity

 "compensation" I start with string gauges take a sting at a time using the 12th harmonic and
then up the neck to get a guide then its a compromise ,obviously it's dependant on the accuracy of the fretting,relief, action  gauges, tuning and to me most important the BRIDGE itself         
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 10:11:08 AM
Hi edward
Quote
£30 to £60? Honestly, I'm astonished, the buyers must have too much money in their pockets!
Have a trip to bond street have a simple ham and cheese sandwich a coffee and then a pint in the pub next door
 £43 !!!!! the world has gone completely mad
 
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Winston Smith on May 28, 2018, 10:19:28 AM
Charges levied are generally governed by what people are willing to pay.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 10:32:02 AM
Hi edward
Quote
Charges levied are generally governed by what people are willing to pay.
Always been so but like designer modern clothes the premium cost now has a status of its own
as if cheaper is in some way inferior ,irrespective of quality

 “We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities.”

Oscar Wilde

he had no idea what was coming lol
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: triskel on May 28, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
Hi triskel a side pic of the bellows .......

Red, like I said then, confirming it's a Gebrüder Ludwig (= Ludwig Bothers) from Zwota.
 
Quote
many banjo players seem to overlook the importance of the bridge unlike the string comunity

I think the vast majority of players, of whatever instrument, tend to be pretty clueless about the vagaries of tone and intonation in relation to their instruments, and how they can be improved. But I've always listened to the instruments I'm working on and tried to achieve the best results I can with them - and bridges are a very important part of that.

Often I'd find a good-quality (preferably German) 3-footed bridge gives the best tone off a resonated banjo, and a 2-footed on an open-back, though I generally stick with the original 2-footed solid rosewood bridge on a Framus (they suit them!) But if the strings are gut, or nylon, I'd go for solid maple.

Quote
... "compensation" I start with string gauges take a sting at a time using the 12th harmonic and
then up the neck to get a guide then its a compromise ,obviously it's dependant on the accuracy of the fretting,relief, action  gauges, tuning and to me most important the BRIDGE itself       

That's the best way to do it, though it should be possible to come up with some reasonably "standard" measurements once the string gauges are known.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 12:30:12 PM
Hi triskel I try to match the bridge to the instrument having several virtually finished bridges to swop around
with different ebony caps I,m no expert to the various harmonic nuances but I know a man that is lol much like violin setup I'm possibly the world's worst fiddle player but have a friend thats exceptional so do the same thing
I do make a few alternative material bridges but for me very old close grain maple and ebony "dry and hard" is the best starting place

Never found anything that works as well always seems to be missing that little something at either end   
mammoth and 300 year old gaboon looks great, bright and great sustain but scooped mid
I made a mother of pearl with a brass cap for a friends 5 string "used a mask" great looking bridge
but bling testing grunt but no cigar

Bit like maple v aluminium v black walnut, I have quite a lot of 100 years+ black walnut made just the one block rim
Like these modern tone rings mild steel whyte laydie with paper thin brass no weight
Old banjo player told me once if it ain't heavy it ain't no good lol

Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Garry Probert on May 28, 2018, 12:39:47 PM
Great fiddle players want to pull out as much as they can from the instrument and the bridge is the conduit
same with great banjo players

sadly I can't do either and am in ore of people that can hear the subtle differences just removing a slither of bloody wood
or a slight grain orientation "swines"lol   
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: triskel on May 28, 2018, 06:14:59 PM
Old banjo player told me once if it ain't heavy it ain't no good lol

I often tell people you pay for good banjos "by the Kilo"! ;)

But I usually add the rider "as long as the weight is in the right places" - seeing that I've come across cheaply-made heavy banjos that have it in all the wrong ones... :o
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Henry Piper on May 29, 2018, 09:50:40 AM
As a general rule what is  "steel bronze" in my experience this can usually be read as "brass" but is there such a thing? I would have thought it was a chemichal nonsequitur, steel is steel, Bronze is copper and tin in varying proportions with sometimes traces of other metals,....but surely not steel,...itself an alloy of Iron and Carbon !!

Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 29, 2018, 09:58:07 AM
As a general rule what is  "steel bronze" in my experience this can usually be read as "brass" but is there such a thing? I would have thought it was a chemichal nonsequitur, steel is steel, Bronze is copper and tin in varying proportions with sometimes traces of other metals,....but surely not steel,...itself an alloy of Iron and Carbon !!

According to the on-line Merriam-Webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steel%20bronze), 'steel bronze' is a bronze of about 92 percent copper and 8 percent tin hardened by compression and used as a substitute for steel in making guns — called also Uchatius bronze.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Henry Piper on May 29, 2018, 10:00:21 AM
As a general rule what is  "steel bronze" in my experience this can usually be read as "brass" but is there such a thing? I would have thought it was a chemichal nonsequitur, steel is steel, Bronze is copper and tin in varying proportions with sometimes traces of other metals,....but surely not steel,...itself an alloy of Iron and Carbon !!

According to the on-line Merriam-Webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steel%20bronze), 'steel bronze' is a bronze of about 92 percent copper and 8 percent tin hardened by compression and used as a substitute for steel in making guns — called also Uchatius bronze.



So !!  a Hardened brass then !!   Many Thanks Steve.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Theo on May 29, 2018, 10:24:28 AM
No not a hardened brass, but a hardened bronze.  Brass is a copper zinc alloy.  Bronze is copper and tin.
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Winston Smith on May 29, 2018, 10:40:46 AM
I expect that each of the common reed materials have their own plus points as far as suitability goes. But couldn't more modern, hi-tech materials and manufacturing processes, have something better to offer?

(If this departure from the original question is a step too far, please feel free to move it.)
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: baz parkes on May 29, 2018, 10:42:10 AM
Old banjo player told me once if it ain't heavy it ain't no good lol

I often tell people you pay for good banjos "by the Kilo"! ;)

But I usually add the rider "as long as the weight is in the right places" - seeing that I've come across cheaply-made heavy banjos that have it in all the wrong ones... :o

I used tp own an Ozark. I only took it to gigs in case the audience turned nasty. Wielded accurately, it would have felled the first three rows, no problem... >:E
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Henry Piper on May 29, 2018, 08:07:12 PM
I expect that each of the common reed materials have their own plus points as far as suitability goes. But couldn't more modern, hi-tech materials and manufacturing processes, have something better to offer?


I once met a melodeon player who claimed to have made a set of Titanium reeds,  I never saw or heard them, and as far as I know no one else did either, but I would have thought that Titanium  would have been rather brittle and therefore not very effective,although I think Titanium occurs in some "Stainless" steels, Metalurgy is not my Forte I'm afraid !!!!!

Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: Henry Piper on May 29, 2018, 08:08:55 PM
No not a hardened brass, but a hardened bronze.  Brass is a copper zinc alloy.  Bronze is copper and tin.

Thanks Theo,.. That's what I actually meant, but mistyped !!!!
Title: Re: Boot fair buy "what is it"?
Post by: KLR on May 29, 2018, 10:59:56 PM
My 30s Paramount tenor always yanks arms out of sockets when people attempt to pick it up, it's heavier than the 20s models - they made everything simpler, including switching from shoes for each hook to a simple big rim, ala Gibson, giving it an even fiercer clang.  It's about my only player now, I sold everything else.  Made a lot of bridges years ago, none were the best but I always balked at hoping $40 would buy the bridge of my dreams, and don't mind taking on a simple woodworking project like this.  Made some with alternate wood tops but settled on solid maple.  I'm not fanatical about tone but they sound alright to me.

I want to make some 2 footers this summer, see how simple a design I can cook up.  That would be apropros with the rest of the banjo, after all.  The ones I made before were 3 foot.  This thing takes realllllly low bridges, too.  Anyway, fun to make like this is banjohangout for a while here, where's Paul Groff?  He knows a Silver Bell from a TB-1.   
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