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Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM

Title: Quieter Box
Post by: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM: Has anyone managed to modify a box to make it substantially quieter?My main box is a pokerwork and it is a bit too loud for early morning/ late evening practice, even when I play it softly.
Also are there any b/c boxes out there that are known to be on the subdued side?
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: george garside on June 03, 2018, 09:47:18 PM: tapping the bass very lightly and keeping the bellows no more than about 8 inches open should enable a pokerwork to be played using the wrist rather than the arm for most bellows movement should result in a pokerwork being pretty quiet. Perhaps playing mostly treble only for most or all of a tune would help.

Otherwise some felt or thick cardboard wedged behind both treble and bass grills would reduce the volume. I have cardboard inside the bass grill on my lilly to dampen down the failry strident bass a bit.

george
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: MarioP on June 03, 2018, 10:17:52 PM: The only quieter boxes I’ve come across are the oldies which came with copper reeds and probably because they were also tuned at 435 rather than 440 :|||:
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: malcolmbebb on June 04, 2018, 07:01:55 AM: I bought my Liliput for use in hotels and lodgings, and asked Microbot to set it up so it would play very softly. That worked very well, plus more convenient to carry around in my luggage of course.

Otherwise there is a Streb with headphones which does any key you want :||: 8)
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Rog on June 04, 2018, 07:29:14 AM: This doesn’t really help vis a vis your Pokerwork, but a single voice instrument can be played quietly, so in extremis you could tape off the sharp reeds on your Pokerwork and have a quieter box.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Steve_freereeder on June 04, 2018, 09:05:24 AM: I would recommend that you have the reeds on your Pokerwork set up by a reputable reed tuner/technician, especially if there has been no such work carried out for a long time, or indeed, ever.

If the reed tip gap is too wide, the instrument will play very robustly which might be fine for playing for morris in a noisy outdoor situation, but the reeds may be a bit slow and breathy to speak at low bellows air pressure. This will make it difficult to play quietly. The state of the valves can also affect this: old curled valves can also make the reeds slow and breathy.

A properly set up Pokerwork can be surprisingly responsive and sensitive to play. Get your box checked over and any issues fixed by someone who really knows their stuff. It is money and time well spent.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Tiposx on June 04, 2018, 12:23:20 PM: I will try the cardboard baffle and taping off one reed set. The box is very far from standard but set up properly and plays nicely at low bellows pressure, but even then the sound carries further than I want it to. Perhaps it's my technique.
I like the Liliput idea for a future project. I understand that they have smaller reed plates than standard boxes - has anyone carried out a conversion to b/c?
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Theo on June 04, 2018, 12:49:33 PM: Felt is better than cardboard for reducing volume. Or anything fibrous or porous, eg other textiles or foam.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Steve_freereeder on June 04, 2018, 01:47:51 PM: Quote from: Tiposx on June 04, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
I will try the cardboard baffle and taping off one reed set. The box is very far from standard but set up properly and plays nicely at low bellows pressure, but even then the sound carries further than I want it to. Perhaps it's my technique.
I like the Liliput idea for a future project. I understand that they have smaller reed plates than standard boxes - has anyone carried out a conversion to b/c?

The trouble with taping off one set of reeds is that it can potentially mess up the tuning.

If the tuning has typical Hohner tremolo and tuned at M M+ where the M reed is nominally at pitch (although in practice nevertheless tends to be slightly sharp), taping off the M+ reeds (often very sharp!) may be OK as the overall sound of the box will be somewhat flatter than previously and may even be in tune with the LH bass/chords, which by default are usually a bit on the sharp side.

However, if the previous tuning is Viennese/'Dedic' tuning, i.e. M- M+, taping off either set of reeds will make the overall pitch noticeably sharp or flat respectively, potentially resulting in clashes with the LH end which will have probably been tuned to pitch (i.e. not sharp or flat)

Also the complete loss of tremolo resulting from taping off a set of reeds may not be the sort of effect you really want. But it's not difficult to tape off a set of reeds to see whether the result is acceptable and, more importantly, just as easy to reverse again.

Probably a felt baffle is the way to go, combined with being very conscious of your technique and bellows pressure.

(Edited to clarify a couple of points)
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Dick Rees on June 04, 2018, 02:02:25 PM: Quote from: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Has anyone managed to modify a box to make it substantially quieter?My main box is a pokerwork and it is a bit too loud for early morning/ late evening practice, even when I play it softly.
Also are there any b/c boxes out there that are known to be on the subdued side?

I can play so softly that my wife can't hear it in the house. What catches me out is that I can't stop tapping my foot. That she CAN hear.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: triskel on June 04, 2018, 02:34:48 PM: Quote from: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Also are there any b/c boxes out there that are known to be on the subdued side?

Delicia "Popular" maybe? (The same applies for the D/G version.)
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 04, 2018, 02:45:15 PM: Quote from: triskel on June 04, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
Quote from: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Also are there any b/c boxes out there that are known to be on the subdued side?

Delicia "Popular" maybe? (The same applies for the D/G version.)

There was one on gumtree a couple of days ago. [Edit Can't find it now, though. Sorry]

Found it. It was ebay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELICIA-POPULAR-B-C-MELODEON-ACCORDION-GREAT-CONDITION/142818535457?hash=item2140a5e821:g:UMYAAOSwuHFbEmV1
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Winston Smith on June 04, 2018, 03:00:28 PM: "Subdued"??? At £360?

For a 2nd hand Delicia at that price, I think you're having a laugh Greg!
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: invadm on June 04, 2018, 04:01:57 PM: what key is your poker work Tiposx ? I have a CF poker work that I think is not loud enough for me,it has older zink Hohner reeds, mellow,nicer but noticeably quieter compere to newer poker work or Erica I have in the same key.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Stiamh on June 04, 2018, 04:13:01 PM: Quote from: Tiposx on June 03, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Has anyone managed to modify a box to make it substantially quieter?My main box is a pokerwork and it is a bit too loud for early morning/ late evening practice, even when I play it softly.
Also are there any b/c boxes out there that are known to be on the subdued side?

My friend Barbara Moore advertised several B/C boxes a couple of weeks ago including 2 Frontalinis that she said were not loud.

Ad here http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22291.0.html
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: triskel on June 04, 2018, 05:42:38 PM: Quote from: Stiamh on June 04, 2018, 04:13:01 PM
My friend Barbara Moore advertised several B/C boxes a couple of weeks ago including 2 Frontalinis that she said were not loud.

And those Frontalini boxes are probably just the cheap post-war Italian style that the Delicia ones seem to have been modeled on...
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on June 04, 2018, 06:58:53 PM: Quote from: Edward Jennings on June 04, 2018, 03:00:28 PM
"Subdued"??? At £360?

For a 2nd hand Delicia at that price, I think you're having a laugh Greg!

;D Maybe theywould take an offer
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Tiposx on June 04, 2018, 09:01:48 PM: Quote from: invadm on June 04, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
what key is your poker work Tiposx ?
It is a b/c fitted with new Cagoni "Tipo a Mano" reeds, so they are keepers,

I just tried fitting a few layers of woven felt inside a spare grille and it has taken the edge off quite a bit. I have also tried this on one of my modified plastic toy melodeons which was a bit shrill with Hohner reeds in G - it definitely works well on that little beast.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: triskel on June 04, 2018, 10:30:16 PM: Quote from: Tiposx on June 04, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
I like the Liliput idea for a future project ... - has anyone carried out a conversion to b/c?

Yes, Hohner!

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/StephenChambers/Accordions/scan0044.jpg)

Though I've never seen one, but (bearing in mind the date of the advert - August 1939) Forbes may never have received the delivery... :(
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Rog on June 05, 2018, 08:14:43 AM: Re taping off the M+ reeds....I did say 'in extremis'. It's quick and easy to try and if it sounds off as suggested by Steve, it is easy to remove the tape again.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: george garside on June 05, 2018, 09:32:56 AM: just a thought - would taping half the diameter of the air holes on the reedblocks reduce the volume provided the pressure on the bellows was not increased . i'e would it have half the effect of completely taping ????

george
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Steve_freereeder on June 05, 2018, 11:37:31 AM: Quote from: george garside on June 05, 2018, 09:32:56 AM
just a thought - would taping half the diameter of the air holes on the reedblocks reduce the volume provided the pressure on the bellows was not increased . i'e would it have half the effect of completely taping ????
Not recommended at all - it usually affects the acoustic properties of the reed chambers and throws the reeds badly out of tune.
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: David Colpitts on July 01, 2019, 12:30:39 PM: I know this is an older thread, but I’ve been reading it with interest. I am happily playing a “new old stock” Pokerwork, wetter-than-I-might’ve liked in C#/D (or A/D with a two minute reed swap) and finally have a box I can hear myself play at a session. Now, I just have to be careful at home, since my wife swears that forty feet away, through two rooms with closed doors, and over the air-conditioner and her television, it sounds like it’s in her ear! I have concertinas, a nice one row well setup, and an older B/C Pokerwork, but this one....THIS ONE........!!!!

So, I will try the felt-in-the-grill for home play. I also play it with the (+) reeds taped off, and love the dryness. But, that takes closer to 4 minutes, and I don’t really like to take the old box apart all the time. I’ll look up adding stops, maybe, but that sounds like surgery. Or, could I do it from the grill?

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Rog on July 01, 2019, 01:48:49 PM: Maybe you could fashion loose bubble wrap L R sleeves, a bit like lagging on a hot water tank, which can be put on quickly for late night musical shenanigans ...
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: ursamyna on July 01, 2019, 02:06:39 PM: http://diato.org/trucs/dimbass.htm (use google to translate) Bernard Loffet's website is still working, his suggestion was to tape over some of the holes in the left hand grill to reduce the volume of air going through the basses relative to the treble reeds. On a pokerwork it should be easy to stick gaffer tape over various holes outside the box until you are happy with the result
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: David Colpitts on July 01, 2019, 02:43:30 PM: Thanks for the ideas! Actually, I never touch the bass end, so no volume issues there. And, I will try both layers of light foam inside grille and tape to the outside, though that look may be even too funky for me!

Modern painter’s masking tape (either blue or green, in these parts) is my friend. It’s how I tape over the higher reeds, to dry the sound. And, I have used it to label the inside rows, so I remember which to cover. And, extra bonus: The tape can be gently removed and re-applied lots of times, so I just leave the tape in an empty wall space inside the box, for next time I want dry. I am off to Irish camp in a couple of weeks, and I know I’ll be drying for my lessons.

I can use the same tape on the pad side of the box, but the elegant solution for lifting the pads and holding them gently aloft while I deftly apply the long skinny tape remains to be discovered. If I get that sorted, I can use the “tape stop” to dry the box without any tools, and just turning the little screw-eyes that hold the grille in place. That’d be almost like pushing a stop. Well, not quite, but totally non-invasive and reversible. By the way, the tape makes absolutely no discernible difference to the breathiness or playability, save for a slightly “tighter” (good) feeling when played with a reed row taped off. I think I’ll start another thread on taping off rows for dry, and see if anybody has a slick way.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: invadm on July 02, 2019, 11:56:16 AM: I have noticed considerable loss of volume after new pallet facings and tuning on some of my older Hohners..I usually play out side and one of my CF Koch needs a microphone to be heard when play out side.. thick felt might help ?
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Steve C. on July 02, 2019, 12:34:21 PM: Playing in the closet is always good. The more crowded with clothing the better. Garages also good. (voice of experience, pre-Streb)
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: David Colpitts on July 02, 2019, 01:18:51 PM: Great news in the easily changeable volume category: I just cut a piece of light sheet foam (of the kind things get wrapped in for posting nowadays, about an eighth of an inch thick, and sort of porous. Fit it into the grill, and it gets trapped there as it should when the grill eyes are turned to hold. My wife could barely hear it from the usual distance (40 feet through two doors over three rooms and an air conditioner. I confess to trying to play a bit more softly, but that had never worked in the past.

ET, VOILA!

It also seems to sound a bit, well, I don’t know, more “mellow” aside from volume. High end harmonics reduced somehow? Magic? Just bad ears? Anyway.....

I also taped off the (+) reeds again, to make a single voice of it. I like the sound, and may leave it there for the summer. This time, I used Theo’s suggestion of clamping the keys (gently) to lift the pallets and then slide a pre-dulled strip of masking tape into position for both blocks’ higher reeds. It did allow me to do it without pulling pins, but otherwise took more time and was a bit fussier to slide them into place correctly. I may just pull the pins next change. Or......

Can any of you generous wizards share the DIY slide/stop methodology, to make a “proper” pull stop for the swap? I am handy, with access to tools, and read Theo’s description of 1mm aluminum and plywood for slides. Is a picture possible? I can’t send the box to England for such an impulse, so will tackle myself, or leave as currently setup.

Thanks, and regards,

David
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Gena Crisman on July 02, 2019, 02:05:41 PM: Quote from: David Colpitts on July 02, 2019, 01:18:51 PM
Can any of you generous wizards share the DIY slide/stop methodology, to make a “proper” pull stop for the swap? I am handy, with access to tools, and read Theo’s description of 1mm aluminum and plywood for slides. Is a picture possible? I can’t send the box to England for such an impulse, so will tackle myself, or leave as currently setup.

I don't know if everything I did would all truly be the recommended strategy, but I added some bass stops to a melodeon last year once I was taught how many of these mechanisms are actually implemented. There was a lot of very helpful advice shared by the very knowledgeable members of this forum, and I shared as many photos of what I did and the results as I could reasonably fit into the posts - I'm still very pleased with the functionality of the results.

Here's a link to the thread: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22920.0.html
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 02, 2019, 02:40:55 PM: Quote from: invadm on July 02, 2019, 11:56:16 AM
I have noticed considerable loss of volume after new pallet facings and tuning on some of my older Hohners..
This could be because the new pallet facing is thicker than the old and therefore needs the action adjusting to give you the previous clearance between the pallet facing and the air vents in the pallet board/fondo
Title: Re: Quieter Box
Post by: David Colpitts on July 02, 2019, 03:04:44 PM: Thanks, Gena. Looks like some reading for me!

Regards,

David