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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: WestOz on July 07, 2018, 07:16:55 AM

Title: Advice on technique required
Post by: WestOz on July 07, 2018, 07:16:55 AM
In the tune The North Shore http://www.folktunefinder.com/tunes/179142 , the first D has a "squiggle" above it - can anyone suggest how to play this "squiggled" D on a D/G? (and perhaps also advise the correct term for the squiggle). Thanks
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Anahata on July 07, 2018, 07:32:48 AM
Ornamentation in music like that tends to be influenced by what what suits your instrument. I'd put an F♯ grace note between the two D's. You could make a triplet of D's (multiple fingers for speed) or play a triplet of (D F♯ D).

If you are playing with others, you might want to match what they are doing , or (more democratically) agree on something that works on both instruments.

There isn't a 'right' answer, of course.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Julian S on July 07, 2018, 07:36:21 AM
It's an ornamentation sign -a 'turn', consisting of the note above, the note itself, note below, and return to note itself - all very quick. I haven't had chance to play the tune to see how easy that is to achieve with my creaky fingers (need some strong coffee at this time of day here...😸)- good bellows control important !

J
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: WestOz on July 07, 2018, 09:01:52 AM
Thanks Anahata, Julian - with work I think I can get a triplet of D's, or F#D - one above, one below and the D is not going to happen for me!
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 07, 2018, 09:42:11 AM
It's what I have been known to call a diddle. Technically, a long or a short roll, but, in practice whatever works on your instrument.  What a player does to play ~ depends a lot on the type of music being played and the type of instrument it's being played on. .
An Irish musician playing a whistle or a fiddle instrument is likely to deal with it differently to one playing a button accordion, or an English player on a 4th apart diatonic accordion. All instruments seem to have limitations in how they can deal with playing particular rolls.

This video is great for learning what a roll is and sounds like on a few instruments. It also gives strategies for sounding like you know what your doing playing them on  the Irish  button accordion, many of which work with the DG, etc.

Well worth a watch   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCDTyGblV1o

[Edit: Anahata and Julian are both technically right, but what you probably need is something to tell the why, the what and the how of it. This little video is one of the best you will find. I had a proper light bulb moment watching it: Oh! that's what they're on about!
It's what makes Irish music sound like what it is.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: playandteach on July 08, 2018, 12:33:34 AM
I think this flute instructional video is really worth a watch too.
Niall Keegan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nQiDKFbYaU)
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: boxer on July 09, 2018, 06:59:24 PM
perhaps inadvertently, you've hit on the very issue that, to me, is perhaps the main reason why the D/G system is less popular for Irish music than B/C.  In Irish music the note D is often rolled.  On D/G the triplet D,F#,D, all on the press, is the only right-sounding ornament available for D.  It's a poor substitute for a roll.  On B/C, a full roll - D,E,D,C#,D, all on the draw, can be played as crisply as you like, with no great effort.

That said, D/G allows you to roll every other note in the D major scale (if you play across the rows), which is a matter for compromise on B/C for some of the notes. 

You win some, you lose some.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Stiamh on July 09, 2018, 09:30:41 PM
I have to say I find discussing Irish-style rolls in the context of a tune "published in London in 1742" a little perplexing. In any case, attempting a 5-note roll in the space of a crotchet / quarter note on any type of accordion would rarely be advisable and certainly not in the context of that tune, IMO. A simpler ornament of the df#d type as mentioned above would sound less out-of-place.

My approach would be not to throw in an ornament just because the transcriber put a squiggle somewhere, but to add whatever I thought would suit the tune and the instrument, and often that would be no ornament at all.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 09, 2018, 10:13:18 PM
I have to say I find discussing Irish-style rolls in the context of a tune "published in London in 1742" a little perplexing.

Fair point.

I am intrigued to know what sort of ornament is implied in this context, Clearly, something is.

What would the symbol mean in the context of "classical" music of the period. That might give a clue.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Steve_freereeder on July 10, 2018, 12:07:37 AM
I have to say I find discussing Irish-style rolls in the context of a tune "published in London in 1742" a little perplexing.

Fair point.

I am intrigued to know what sort of ornament is implied in this context, Clearly, something is.

What would the symbol mean in the context of "classical" music of the period. That might give a clue.

The 'squiggle' referred to in the original post is the ABC coding for the well-established classical ornament: a turn, or to give it its Italian term, a gruppetto. This has a very specific meaning in classical music which is actually quite close to the Irish 'roll'. The main note is played, followed by the note above, then back to the main note, then the note below, finally back to the main note.
The written example shown here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)#Turn) describes the turn exactly.

However, I suspect that sometimes (not necessarily in the tune in this discussion) a transcriber uses the ABC code for a turn !turn! when what be should used is the ABC code for a roll !roll!. See here (http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#decorations) for a list of ABC codes for ornaments and decorations.

Moral: be careful when viewing or interpreting the ornaments in other people's ABC transcriptions, and if possible, try to go back to the original source (be it written music or a recording) and make your own judgement.
Title: Re: Advice on technique required
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on July 10, 2018, 08:48:10 AM
From what you say, Steve, it seems (to me) that it might make sense to use similar strategies to the ones suggested by Stiamh Jones in his video, for coping with the characteristics of your instrument.

It's all music  (:)

I messed around a bit and came back to something very similar to the solution described by Anahata.

My instinct is that it is more of a rhythmical tool than a melodic one, so the actual notes take second place