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Discussions => Recordings and Videos => Topic started by: Gary Chapin on August 11, 2018, 04:37:30 PM

Title: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Gary Chapin on August 11, 2018, 04:37:30 PM
This was new to me. Wow, Parkinson, Carthy, and Swarbick ... to have been at that event!

https://accordeonaire.com/2018/08/11/appreciate-chris-parkinson/
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Hugh Taylor on August 11, 2018, 04:45:52 PM
Yes Chris is a fine player of both piano and diatonic accordion. We play this tune in Am, abc below, my chords. It needs some fudging to play, but a great  tune.

X:1
T:Tankard of Ale
R:Triple Hornpipe
N:I think this is in the Joshua Jackson tune book
C:Trad.
O:England
Z:Paul Hardy's Possible Tunebook 2013 (see www.paulhardy.net). Creative Commons cc by-nc-sa licenced.
M:3/2
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:Am
|:"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"G"(G2 .B2) (B2"Em"E2) (G2B2)|"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"Em"(E "Am".A) (A"Em"E)"Am"(CA,):|
|:"Am"(agae) "F"(fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"Em"(gfgd) (edcB) "Am"(ABcA)|(agae) "F"(fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"Em"(E2 "Am".A2) (A2"Em"E2)"Am"(C2A,2):|
|:"Am"(ecAc) "Dm"(fdBd) "Am"(ecAc)|"G"(G2 .B2) (B2"Em"E2) (G2B2)|"Am"(ecAc) "Dm"(fdBd) "Am"(ecAc)|"Em"(E2 "Am".A2) (A2"Em"E2)"Am"(C2A,2):|]


Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Lester on August 11, 2018, 05:19:36 PM
Worth finding the CD Chris did with John Kirkpatrick as the Sultans of Squeeze

Liberty Bel on bass piano Accordion and bass Anglo concertina (:)  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLiiQyCjmlI)
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 11, 2018, 05:28:07 PM
Yes Chris is a fine player of both piano and diatonic accordion. We play this tune in Am, abc below, my chords. It needs some fudging to play, but a great  tune.

X:1
T:Tankard of Ale
R:Triple Hornpipe
N:I think this is in the Joshua Jackson tune book
....etc.

The Tankard of Ale - what a great tune!  (:)
Brian Peters has also recorded it on his CD 'Anglophilia', PUG006, Pugwash Music, 2005.
The sleeve notes indicate that the tune does indeed come from the Joshua Jackson MS, Harrogate, 1798.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Winston Smith on August 11, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
We were fortunate enough to have Chris at South Shields Folk Club the other week. What a lovely player, and good entertainment to boot!
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on August 11, 2018, 06:15:47 PM
I think the first line should read
|:"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"G"(G2 .B2) (B2"Em"E2) (G2B2)|"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"Em"(E2 "Am".A2) (A2"Em"E2)"Am"(C2A,2):|

Edit: pdf score attached. Nice tune.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Gary Chapin on August 12, 2018, 02:13:35 AM
Okay, this could very well be me, but the way I hear Chris playing this tune is actually in a mixture of 3/2 and 2/2. I have no idea what the original sheet music is, but this is what I hear (also, PDF posted). Am I crazy?

X:1
T:Tankard of Ale
R:Triple Hornpipe
N:I think this is in the Joshua Jackson tune book
C:Trad. (possibly modified by Chris Parkinson and the House Band)
O:England
Z:Paul Hardy's Possible Tunebook 2013 (see www.paulhardy.net). Creative Commons cc by-nc-sa licenced.
M:3/2 2/2
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:Am
|:"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"G"(GB) (B"Em"E) (G2B2)|"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "Dm"(dcBA)|"Em"(E"Am"A) (A"Em"E)"Am"(C2A,2):|:
"Am"(agae) "F"(fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"Em"(gfgd) (edcB) "Am"(ABcA)|(agae) "F"(fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"Em"(E"Am"A) (A"Em"E)"Am"(C2A,2):|
|:"Am"(ecAc) "Dm"(fdBd) "Am"(ecAc)|"G"(GB) (B"Em"E) (G2B2)|"Am"(ecAc) "Dm"(fdBd) "Am"(ecAc)|"Em"(E"Am"A) (A"Em"E)"Am"(C2A,2):|]
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 12, 2018, 08:31:32 AM
Okay, this could very well be me, but the way I hear Chris playing this tune is actually in a mixture of 3/2 and 2/2. I have no idea what the original sheet music is, but this is what I hear (also, PDF posted). Am I crazy?
No you're not crazy. Chris Parkinson is playing the tune with the irregular bar lengths and time signatures, just as you have indicated. He's hurrying over what should be 6 crotchets in bars two and four and turning them into 4 quavers and 2 crotchets. Similarly with the final bar of the B-music and bars two and four of the C-music.

It's certainly not what is written in the Joshua Jackson MS, which is as given by Hugh Taylor in the earlier post (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22677.msg271531.html#msg271531).

I would not like to speculate on whether Chris has learned the tune incorrectly or whether he has deliberately decided to play it in this idiosyncratic way. But as I am used to the regular 3/2 version, Chris's rendering does rather give me aural hiccups.  :-\
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Hugh Taylor on August 12, 2018, 10:26:45 AM
Sorry, perhaps I should have said that the abc that I gave was as published and not as we played as I think its important to go back to the source of a tune before deciding how to play it. Its my main criticism of thesession.org as apart from it being Irish music based, it often gives  versions that are individuals transcriptions of what they think they heard somewhere.
We (and Frank Lee & Corrie) play the tune in the same way as Chris, as we find that it flows better. I'm sorry if that gives Steve aural hiccups: perhaps I can buy him a pint at Whitby to alleviate the symptoms?
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Anahata on August 12, 2018, 10:45:46 AM
We (and Frank Lee & Corrie) play the tune in the same way as Chris, as we find that it flows better.

I've not heard the tune in its written form, but like Steve I found Chris Parkinson's version disturbing because I couldn't find the main beat.
I'm going to have to learn it it now, so I can make an informed decision for myself…
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Theo on August 12, 2018, 10:52:03 AM
I really liked the tune the way Parky plays it.  But then I like uneven rhythms.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Hugh Taylor on August 12, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
Anahata said above I found Chris Parkinson's version disturbing because I couldn't find the main beat.. One of the things about the approach to playing English music that I'm not keen on is the thinking that its all dance music. A few years ago, I went to a local concert by a Finnish group, and they introduced one set by saying something like 'that last tune was for dancing to: this next one is for listening to'. They recognised the difference in material and approach. I think we should too.
This year in the Radway at Sidmouth, someone played the Attingham Waltz written by Helena Torpy, one of my favourite tunes. It was played as a waltz with the inevitable um-pah-pah accompaniment, which ruined it for me. I don't know how she intended for it to be played, but I prefer to approach it as a dreamy almost unstructured tune in the sense of a Scottish or Irish air.
Taking the Tankard of Ale tune above, I'm more than happy for it not to maintain a 3/2 beat all the way through, and in fact in our version we give a 2 beat pause after each 4 bar phrase: its wonderful.
So here's to more 'loose' playing!
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 12, 2018, 12:47:06 PM
This is an interesting discussion.
...But then I like uneven rhythms.
I like uneven and quirky rhythms too. (:)

I do wonder where Chris Parkinson got his version from. I see that on the Sultans of Squeeze recording which Lester linked to earlier (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22677.msg271533.html#msg271533), Parky and JK also play the 3/2-2/2 version.

However, I learned the tune from the playing of Brian Peters who plays the version faithful to the Joshua Jackson MS. Here is a link to part of the recording on Brian's CD 'Anglophilia'. I believe I am OK with copyright by posting the link, as it is a fragment and is given here in the spirit of fair dealing, review and research. But I will take it down if requested.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvf43gouxtwaw2w/Tankard_of_Ale_fragment_Brian_Peters.mp3?dl=0

Perhaps Brian (who is a member of this forum) will happen along at some point and give us further insight into his researches into the tune and the Joshua Jackson MS.

Some people will say 'play it how you like; the tune doesn't mind' which is fine and there is a lot to be said for that, especially as that's how the aural tradition/folk process works. On the other hand, these 18th and 19th century triple-time hornpipes were principally dance tunes; the dances fitted the music and vice versa. So if we tinker about with the rhythms we perhaps need to be mindful of what we are doing and how our tinkered versions are going to be used.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 12, 2018, 01:11:47 PM
Taking the Tankard of Ale tune above, I'm more than happy for it not to maintain a 3/2 beat all the way through, and in fact in our version we give a 2 beat pause after each 4 bar phrase: its wonderful.
If you do that, are you not simply putting the line lengths/phrase lengths back into their original 3/2 length??  >:E
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Anahata on August 12, 2018, 02:00:25 PM
However, I learned the tune from the playing of Brian Peters who plays the version faithful to the Joshua Jackson MS. Here is a link to part of the recording on Brian's CD 'Anglophilia'.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvf43gouxtwaw2w/Tankard_of_Ale_fragment_Brian_Peters.mp3?dl=0

Thank you for posting that - after hearing it I went back to the Parky video and it now makes perfect sense, because I know which parts he's shortened and can understand why. I like irregular rhythms too, but more so when I can follow the pattern. And Chris Parkinson's musical ability is unquestionable, so I knew he'd only play it that way for good reasons. No more musical indigestion for me!  :|glug
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Gary Chapin on August 16, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
I have communicated with Chris. He reports that the tune came to him through Ged Foley back in the '80s. He has it in a tune book somewhere, which he is looking for. He can't recall if the tune was irregularized "before we got our filthy hands on it  (:) " or if this arrangement was done by the band. He will follow up as he discovers more.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Hugh Taylor on August 17, 2018, 10:33:20 AM
Thanks Gary. Ged Foley played in the House Band with him if my memory serves me correctly. I would be interested to know how they came across their arrangement. I don't think that the tune exists anywhere else beside the Joshua Jackson mss, but its interesting that Chris introduces the piece on the video as coming from the Lancashire/Cheshire border. I know that is where the 3/2 hornpipes tend to reside, but its a long way from Joshua Jackson, so there may another source that Ged knew about. 
For what its worth, the abc below is how we (try to) play it.

 X:1
T:Tankard of Ale
R:Triple Hornpipe
N:I think this is in the Joshua Jackson tune book
N:This version as played by Hugh Taylor
C:Trad.
O:England
Z:Paul Hardy's Possible Tunebook 2013 (see www.paulhardy.net). Creative Commons cc by-nc-sa licenced.
M:3/2
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:Am
|:"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "G"(dcBA)|[M:2/2]"G"(GBB "Em"(EG2B2)|[M:3/2]"Am"(ABcA) "F"(fedc) "G"(dcBA)|"Am"EAAe (c2A6):|
|:"Am"(agae)  "Dm"  (fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"X"(gfgd)"Am" (edcB) (ABcA)|"Am"(agae) "Dm"(fedc) "G"(BcdB)|"Am"(EAAe)(c2A6):|
|:"Am"(ecAc) (f"G"dBd) "Am"(ecAc)|[M:2/2]"G"(GBB "Em"E) (G2B2)|[M:3/2]"Am"(ecAc) (f"G"dBd) "Am"(ecAc)|"Am"(EAAe (c2A6):|]


Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Ellisteph on August 18, 2018, 08:38:06 AM
Thanks Gary. Ged Foley played in the House Band with him if my memory serves me correctly. I would be interested to know how they came across their arrangement. I don't think that the tune exists anywhere else beside the Joshua Jackson mss, but its interesting that Chris introduces the piece on the video as coming from the Lancashire/Cheshire border. I know that is where the 3/2 hornpipes tend to reside, but its a long way from Joshua Jackson, so there may another source that Ged knew about. 
 
The tune is also in 'John of the Green The Cheshire Way' p.13 but that is in 3/2 all the way through too (and attributed to Joshua Jackson). However it may be the source used by Ged Foley then tweaked a bit. The folk process?
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 19, 2018, 07:42:41 AM
Thanks Gary. Ged Foley played in the House Band with him if my memory serves me correctly. I would be interested to know how they came across their arrangement. I don't think that the tune exists anywhere else beside the Joshua Jackson mss, but its interesting that Chris introduces the piece on the video as coming from the Lancashire/Cheshire border. I know that is where the 3/2 hornpipes tend to reside, but its a long way from Joshua Jackson, so there may another source that Ged knew about. 
 
The tune is also in 'John of the Green The Cheshire Way' p.13 but that is in 3/2 all the way through too (and attributed to Joshua Jackson). However it may be the source used by Ged Foley then tweaked a bit. The folk process?

The version of Tankard of Ale in 'John of the Green The Cheshire Way' is where the Paul Hardy ABC tune book version comes from, referred to near the start of this thread. In JotGtCW there are dozens of triple time 3/2 hornpipes; similarly in other collections - e.g. the Playford tunes and tunes from the Northumbrian repertoire. None of them have that odd bar 4/4 irregularity that Parky plays.

Many of the triple time hornpipes in these collections date from the 18th century or earlier. They were actually written down to begin with; they were composed by someone, especially the often very complex sets of variations. Musicians played from the written music. John Offord, the respected fiddler and musicologist who compiled and edited JofGtCW writes, in his introduction to the book, that modern folk musicians 'seem to be afraid of playing from the written music'. The introduction is well worth reading in full.

John Offord also points out the similarity of the Tankard of Ale to the Ravenscroft Hornpipe, also given in JofGtCW. The latter could be thought of as a variant of Tankard of Ale. The Ravenscroft Hornpipe is also in 3/2 time throughout.

My own feeling is that this irregular version of Tankard of Ale (however much you might like its quirkiness) is possibly a mis-reading of a very fine and perfectly orthodox 3/2 hornpipe, or else someone has got hold of an erroneous copy from somewhere and perpetuated a misprint which should have been filtered out at the editing/proof reading stage. In my experience as a transcriber, I know that both these things happen.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Jesse Smith on August 26, 2018, 03:03:02 AM
I usually just call this sort of thing "rubato" and enjoy it (or not, depending), but it's very interesting to read of its hypothetical evolution from the original written tune. In this piece, I enjoy the "ebb and flow" nature of the music. And I think there's no question that Parkinson knows what he's doing musically (and Kirkpatrick as well, who played bass concertina behind him on this number on the "Sultans of Squeeze" CD).

This is what the liner notes of that CD say about the tune, for what it's worth:
"A triple-time tune from the NW of England, one of many tunes to originate in the Lancashire & Cheshire area. Chris learnt this from the playing of Ged Foley during the course of recording one of the many House Band albums in USA. Thanks Ged."
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Gary Chapin on August 27, 2018, 01:47:19 AM
Yes, and the idea of bending a straight tune is the sort of thing that the House Band and John Skelton were known to do. As it is, I've become entranced with the tune and have fair well learned it. Maybe this should be tune of the month where you get to chose to play it straight or crooked.   :o
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Anahata on August 27, 2019, 09:25:03 PM
After what turns out to be almost exactly a year, I've posted  my own recording of A Tankard of Ale  (https://youtu.be/vOpMBALBlQU) which I have been struggling with all summer. I've chosen to do it in straight 3/2 because that's how it is published in Jackson, and I've also chosen to do it in the original key of A minor so I can get the end of each section at the proper pitch, down to that low A. But that key choice hasn't made it easy  :Ph
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Rees on August 27, 2019, 09:55:06 PM
Ha ha! In the video, his introduction, "I always try and find tunes that upset somebody".
Job done then, Parky  ;D
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Steve_freereeder on August 27, 2019, 11:19:43 PM
After what turns out to be almost exactly a year, I've posted  my own recording of A Tankard of Ale  (https://youtu.be/vOpMBALBlQU) which I have been struggling with all summer. I've chosen to do it in straight 3/2 because that's how it is published in Jackson, and I've also chosen to do it in the original key of A minor so I can get the end of each section at the proper pitch, down to that low A. But that key choice hasn't made it easy  :Ph
Bravo! Very well played indeed, especially sticking to the original Am key (it is the only way to do it on a D/G box).  :Ph  :|glug
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Gary Chapin on August 28, 2019, 02:55:37 PM
After what turns out to be almost exactly a year ...

I've been working on it since then, too. It's become an Everest tune for me. I've been letting it sit a little while. You have inspired me.
Title: Re: Chris Parkinson Video
Post by: Hugh Taylor on August 30, 2019, 10:19:37 AM
Well done Anahata. Having a 4th button start enables you to go down to the low A which I have to fudge.