Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Instrument Makes and Models => Topic started by: Nigel on September 22, 2018, 12:21:41 PM
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I'm looking for thoughts about using a Lady for Morris. This box seems to be light and with nice large buttons. On the other hand, are the bases too quiet, is the sound too pretty and is it sufficiently robust?
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I'm sure Morris will be delighted, Nigel. But look out for the Rozzers, I'm almost sure that using Ladies like that is illegal!
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You are so naughty, Winston. I was trying to be PC, honest Guv.
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I was considering one and had it demonstrated as being effective for Morris, although it was within the walls of a shop, and the chap playing it was being pretty aggressive with it. I wasn't entirely convinced, and I didn't think I was able to get the same out of it when I tried it myself, though.
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I'm looking for thoughts about using a Lady for Morris. This box seems to be light and with nice large buttons. On the other hand, are the bases too quiet, is the sound too pretty and is it sufficiently robust?
You say for use in a Morris "Band" . if you are likely to be playing with several other instruments, does any one of them have to be ultra loud ?? surely the total volume is what the audience will hear rather than any one instrument. I don't claim to be an expert of the dynamics of a Morris "Band", in my days of playing for Morris ( Cotswold ) its was almost invariably danced to a single musician!! but I'm sure the Serenallini will sound fine.
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With any Italian box the tuning is likely to be in the “swing” range. For better audibility you might want to consider having the tremolo increased.
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I took my three voice Hohner (MMM) to band practice now that I an getting to be a bit more proficient - I can now hear what I am playing with a PA another melodeon and an amplified string bass - but of course so can other people....
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the 'need' for loud boxes ( or ?boxes played loudly)for morris seems to imply that morris dancers are hard of hearing. Or is it because everybody in the 'band' is playing flat out so none can hear their own instrument?
????
george
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the 'need' for loud boxes ( or ?boxes played loudly)for morris seems to imply that morris dancers are hard of hearing. Or is it because everybody in the 'band' is playing flat out so none can hear their own instrument?
????
george
Morris dancers probably aren't that hard of hearing, but it can be difficult for them to hear quiter instruments on an out in a busy place. Especially if they end up positioned upwind. Also, you're right, it can be hard for musicians to hear what the lead musician is doing over the noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves. Especially when everyone is playing loudly in a big band. It is surprisingly easy to end up with conflicting tempos if you don't plan to prevent it.
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the musicians should always position themselves upwind from the dancers. For many years I used a castagnari lilly ( treble only) as sole musician for a rapper side - the dancers could hear it perfectly well. Same goes for a single pokerwork for NW morris. ( treble and bass) but not played flat out by any means. Can't speak for Cotswold as my experience thereof is very limited.
george
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the musicians should always position themselves upwind from the dancers. For many years I used a castagnari lilly ( treble only) as sole musician for a rapper side - the dancers could hear it perfectly well. Same goes for a single pokerwork for NW morris. ( treble and bass) but not played flat out by any means. Can't speak for Cotswold as my experience thereof is very limited.
george
That's one solution, George. It's not the only one. Horses for courses.
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Also, you're right, it can be hard for musicians to hear what the lead musician is doing over the noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves. Especially when everyone is playing loudly in a big band. It is surprisingly easy to end up with conflicting tempos if you don't plan to prevent it.
I disagree with the -noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves' bit, if they are playing so loudly they can't hear the lead musician they are playing too loudly. If you are ending up with conflicting tempos' there is a real problem with people just being players and not members of a band.
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disagree with the -noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves' bit, if they are playing so loudly they can't hear the lead musician they are playing too loudly. If you are ending up with conflicting tempos there is a real problem with people just being players and not members of a band.
I completely agree with Lester.
All the musicians should be (a) listening to each other and (b) watching each other, and if there is a 'lead musician' that person is who you should be listening to and watching. Watching is really important, especially if there is a lot of extraneous noise - wind, audience, etc. which might make it harder to hear. Watching means being aware of the other musicians' fingers, bellows direction, bow directions, body movements, etc. at the same time as also watching the dancers.
When you start to analyse it in this way you realise that the art of playing in a band is quite complex. It takes practice to get it right but it is definitely worth doing, because it makes the difference between a really good band (where people come up to you afterwards and congratulate you on the music) and one which is just mediocre.
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Also, you're right, it can be hard for musicians to hear what the lead musician is doing over the noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves. Especially when everyone is playing loudly in a big band. It is surprisingly easy to end up with conflicting tempos if you don't plan to prevent it.
I disagree with the -noise they are, quite rightly, making, themselves' bit, if they are playing so loudly they can't hear the lead musician they are playing too loudly. If you are ending up with conflicting tempos' there is a real problem with people just being players and not members of a band.
Generally, I would say you're right, Lester (and Steve) but we're not all experts when we start. it's not all their fault. As a band we're in our first year of playing out together. My playing is not particularly loud. Some of them are inexperienced in playing for morris (although they are experienced musicians). The guitar player has a natural tendency to get ahead of the beat. If kept in check he's fine. It's all part of our learning experience.
I need to take care when setting up to make sure that all the people that have to hear me can hear me. We've worked hard at being a band, rather than just a group of people who happen to be playing together. When we put all the band out out these days the consensus I get, from informed feedback, is that we sound pretty good these days, but I have to work at it.
It's all worth it to me and the dancers. We love the sound we get now and it keeps getting better. But it can be hard for them all to hear me. I'm not about to tell any of them to sod off if they get it wrong now and then.
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Generally, I would say you're right, Lester (and Steve) but we're not all experts when we start. it's not all their fault. As a band we're in our first year of playing out together. My playing is not particularly loud. Some of them are inexperienced in playing for morris (although they are experienced musicians). The guitar player has a natural tendency to get ahead of the beat. If kept in check he's fine. It's all part of our learning experience.
I need to take care when setting up to make sure that all the people that have to hear me can hear me. We've worked hard at being a band, rather than just a group of people who happen to be playing together. When we put all the band out out these days the consensus I get, from informed feedback, is that we sound pretty good these days, but I have to work at it.
It's all worth it to me and the dancers. We love the sound we get now and it keeps getting better. But it can be hard for them all to hear me. I'm not about to tell any of them to sod off if they get it wrong now and then.
Of course you have to work at it and you're right about not being experts when you start. But you seem to be doing all the right things and the feedback you are getting confirms this. Keep at it!
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Of course you have to work at it and you're right about not being experts when you start. But you seem to be doing all the right things and the feedback you are getting confirms this. Keep at it!
(:) Thanks Steve.
But, to make the original point I had in mind, there are some good reasons to have a loud box.
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What Lester and Steve have said sums it up pretty well. Just a thought/observation the best dance sides always seem to have excellent band/musicians and the slightly 'iffy' sides have iffy band/musicians.
The 'band' and the dancers are , or should be, equal partners in putting on a public performance and should be 'as one'. and for that matter the band members should operate as a harmonious whole with a designated boss person, leader or whatever
george
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What Lester and Steve have said sums it up pretty well. Just a thought/observation the best dance sides always seem to have excellent band/musicians and the slightly 'iffy' sides have iffy band/musicians.
The 'band' and the dancers are , or should be, equal partners in putting on a public performance and should be 'as one'. and for that matter the band members should operate as a harmonious whole with a designated boss person, leader or whatever
george
Sorry we're iffy, George.
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But, to make the original point I had in mind, there are some good reasons to have a loud box.
At risk of being the awkward squad I can't see any reason for the leader having a loud box as a well practiced band (of whatever sort) should lesten to each other I,e, A listens to B listens to C etc and most importantly all watch the dancers feet,. Also the job maintaining rhythm and timing is the prime function of the drummer which is part of most morris bands. i.e the leader maintains the rhythm timing etc which is picked upo and amplified by the drummer and is picked up by the dancers and restof the band.
george of the akward sqaad ;) :||: :M :|glug
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I think I'm out of this discussion before I get offended by pontifications from people who've never seen or heard us.
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I think I'm out of this discussion before I get offended by pontifications from people who've never seen or heard us.
Please don't get offended Greg ! I,m sure none of these comments are intended personally. There is and always has been much discussion on how Morris should be accompanied, some people favouring large bands of musicians, others less so, with the trend nowadays towards larger bands with a greater variety of instrumentation, and as others have said a large band does need to be "balanced" with no one instrument dominating, and this does take practice.
As I've said previously my experience was some years ago in Cotswold and Border Morris ( Hartley M.M and Motley Border, Both in kent) and mostly we danced to a single musician or very occasionally two. I also remember being told by older and more experienced musicians that the audience has come to watch the dancers, not listen to the music,.. the musician's job is to support the dancing not particularly to show off your virtuosity. I,m sure an audience enjoy good musicianship, but it should never dominate the dancing.
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Greg , the 'pontifications' by me ( and others) were not aimed at or intended to offend anybody.
As far as I can see, from reading through this interesting thread , a veriety of views, including my own, were simply attempts to pass on , (sometimes differing) advice in the forums ethos of everybody chucking in their three penneth in the hope that somebody may find it helpful and that all are free to agree or disagree
I am personally sorry that you feel offended
george
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I would echo other comments here about playing as part of a band, especially Steve's. A well rehearsed band is always time well spent. Another big factor is environment - how you play is dependent on whether you are outside on a windy seafront, indoors in a pub or mic'ed up at a ceilidh spot. You need to adjust accordingly. Also if the player next to you has a Baffetti Binci, don't always expect to be heard anyway >:E
Back to the original question - I think that a Serenellini Lady would be absolutely fine for Morris.
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Also if the player next to you has a Baffetti Binci, don't always expect to be heard anyway
Once a morris "band" exceeds a certain number of boxes no one individual really gets heard.
Again, to go back to the original question, the answer is "probably". Perhaps Nigel could give some more information about the band he intends to play in and what other kinds of music he intends to play. Then he might get some slightly more focused advice on whether the Lady is the box for him.
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Greg , the 'pontifications' by me ( and others) were not aimed at or intended to offend anybody.
As far as I can see, from reading through this interesting thread , a veriety of views, including my own, were simply attempts to pass on , (sometimes differing) advice in the forums ethos of everybody chucking in their three penneth in the hope that somebody may find it helpful and that all are free to agree or disagree
I am personally sorry that you feel offended
george
I [should have] said, I ought to get out before I got offended. I'm pretty thick skinned, some say blissfully ignorant.
Once a morris "band" exceeds a certain number of boxes no one individual really gets heard.
True. Our band had three Melodeons and two PAs when I joined. My little Jones concertina was completely inaudible.
For the last two years I have been the only free reed player. I must admit, I prefer what's happening now.
What I am trying to get over [convey] is that there are a number of approaches to morris dancing and morris music (at least there are down our way) and they can have very different criteria.
I think most of you know what I mean. They are, however, all equally valid.
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Its bot just indoor.outdoor, especially with NW. Even with rubber shods clogs can drown out the music on any noisy surface. Our side once did a ceilidh spot at Chippenham and even though the band was amplified through the stage PA system, the dancers could only hear the bass drum.
I've not been a regular for the last couple of years as my work rota always seems to interfere. On the last occasion I found myself outside a local pub, I took my 1914 and couldn't hear it above those around me. Come half time someone commented that I was having as much effect as usual on the band, so I switched to the Baffetti Binci and found I was once again leading. My apologies to the leader should she read this, but I could no longer hear her Hohner PA (she's since bought a very nicely fettled Pokerwork). As it was really annoying me that the LH side of the band was out of tempo with the RH side, I blasted out a strict tempo and dragged them back into sync. Perhaps only the leader should be allowed to play louder than the others, then...?
By contrast, the other side with us (also NW) had two Dino Baffettis or similar as their band, so was completely different but they play very much together and with great gusto in Jim Sawyer's style.
Rob.