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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: Gena Crisman on November 17, 2018, 11:08:21 PM

Title: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 17, 2018, 11:08:21 PM
Hi all,

I know several people here on the forum attend, or are involved in running & organising, Steady Speed sessions.

A new session has started up down around my neck of the woods and has attracted quite a bit of interest from local musicians who are not, shall we say, session regulars. There's a a wide range of skills on show, from "haven't played for 10 years", to "sort of just learning", all the way up to "skilled classical musician". It's hoping to run twice a month at the moment.

As, apparently, a confident & seasoned session regular, I'm finding I'm getting pointed at to help run things on the night. As many of the attendants currently play from sheet music/are improvers/etc, it's clear that simply knocking out some tunes without thinking too much about it will probably very quickly turn this into the one other ~English open session that I know about around here. As things stand, it's pretty much just me and another melodeon player who are truly confident leading the tunes. Some others from our regular session came along and lead a few too: A fiddle player and another box, and a couple of tunes from others. Most of the other people there, I hadn't met before, but there was a lovely variety of instruments on show, which I'm really fond of as our regular session is almost all boxes nowadays. So, if I can help make it work, then I'm game to try.

However, all of us are kind of guessing what is and isn't a good idea to try and implement with this mix of people, and I was wondering if anyone had any guidance or voices of experience on how to run/not run a session in this kind of situation.

I should mention that we do have a few led sessions in the area, where there is a very fixed tune list, and usually they are lead by one of our local names, and, generally I don't enjoy these at all. I think the preference is that this session remain, in some capacity, an Open Session, where people can share or lead tunes in the normal way at such things, but, without putting everyone who isn't used to them off.

The main thing we're going to do is work on keeping things slower, and staying slow, ala Steady Speed, but, having never attended a steady speed session myself, I've no idea how fast/slow they might aim to play. I brought out my little tempo monitor phone app out a few times just to get a feel of what we were playing. I'm not sure how to act on that information though - in the dance band, if I want the speed to change, I aim to win over the drummers, and let them guide everyone else, and at least for now the session doesn't have much in the way of percussion, so, I'm not sure how to actually enforce a pace and not get pulled up with it myself.

Additionally, we've also put together a set list of ~20 session classics that people can expect to come up, but an evening is more like 30-35. I suggested perhaps also pushing some specific tunes out of that list too, to try and foster some of the other players to focus learn those.

If we hope to have the session be partially open, any thoughts on having eg a fixed 'steady' hour that then just releases into Open time, vs eg kinda just having the most confident people there knowing to pick generally from the fixed repertoire, letting anyone who wants to lead between tunes? I'm a bit concerned we're trying to both have our cake and eat it.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Bob Ellis on November 18, 2018, 12:14:25 AM
From my experience of running slow and steady sessions at festivals and elsewhere, the main thing to do is to lay down some ground rules. You can't expect everybody to sing from the same hymn sheet if they don't know what is on that hymn sheet.

Obviously, you want as many people as possible to join in as often as possible during the evening, so having a core of well-known tunes that are played most evenings is a good idea. However, it could seem prescriptive and dictatorial to insist that those are the only tunes played, so suggest to those who attend that the aim is to encourage people to join in, so well-known tunes will comprise the majority of the repertoire, but that people are welcome to introduce other tunes provided the more esoteric tunes don't begin to dominate.

You also need to ensure a steady tempo - ideally slower than would normally be played in sessions. Don't be afraid of stopping a tune that has started too fast or has speeded up and starting it again at a slower tempo. Recently, I have taken to using a rhythm guitarist who I know can be relied on to maintain a slow and steady tempo and make sure that everyone in the room understands that they should take the tempo from her. This has worked well and has reduced considerably the amount of speeding up that takes place.

Each session is different and therefore what works for me may not work for you, but whatever you decide, it is essential to make sure that everyone knows the ground rules. I remind people every session because some people are apt to forget and there may also be new people who don't know what those ground rules are. There also needs to be a friendly atmosphere so that people don't feel that the rules are onerous. After all, they are there to enjoy themselves.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Dick Rees on November 18, 2018, 01:22:04 AM
Being as how I live about 3,800 miles away, I'm not going to make it to any sessions fast or slow, but my inclination would be to set the tempo with a "once through" by the tune leader before opening it up to the masses.

Is this how it's done?
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Lester on November 18, 2018, 07:35:40 AM
I run a slow and steady locally with a mixture of mostly melodeons but also concertinas, of all varieties, fiddles, guitars, ukeleles, ocarinas. We using the following format:
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Helena Handcart on November 18, 2018, 08:05:47 AM
I started out running a session which evolved a steady-speed hour some, ooh five years ago now I think. The session has moved and become a fully-fledged steady speed run in tandem with an open session run by my friend and fellow melnetter Alan.  This works well with people gaining confidence and repertoire and moving up from the Green Man Session to the Wheatsheaf session.

We have a tune book and a tune of the month gets added, with TOTM getting much attention for about the first 15-20 minutes and often getting played later in the evening. We largely stick to the tune book but sometimes people want to play us a tune for possible future inclusion - and we get the odd party piece. The tunebook consists of some session classics and some morris tunes, including a sprinkling of 'easy in E minor' border morris tunes.

Attempts to control the speed achieve variable success and the desired speed depends, to an extent, on the attendees on any given night. If they are all regulars and know a particular tune well I tend to let it go a bit more but will pull things back if we have newbies or people struggling.  I encourage people to choose a tune out of the tune book that they want to play but I don't do the going round the room thing and if people don't want to choose a tune, well that's fine too. Equally if they want to choose but not start a tun I e,or one of the other more confident musicians will start the tune for them.

It can be a tiring enterprise sometimes, other times it is extremely rewarding and sometimes both.  Every so often I think I'm going to give it up but the feedback and participation levels mean that that is not likely (a bit like me saying I won't do Melodeon Playgroup again I guess).  Some nights the whole thing flows, some nights you will feel like you are pushing the whole thing uphill. On nights like that you will appreciate the help you get from the more experienced players. On that note, thanks to Lester, Alan, Colin and Jane for help and support in the Ewell steady speed session.

We have a Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheEwellSessions/) and a website (http://ewellsessions.net/). I'm a bit hesitant about sharing the website as I only built it on Wednesday evening and have not had time to fine tune or proof read it. The sign up form for the mailing list is not working, and I have yet to complete the directory page for other local sessions, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 18, 2018, 08:54:06 AM
I have no slow and steady session nearby but would have really appreciated one when first starting up.
As my session largely comprises of long standing friends they supported me and took it steady when first getting going.

I really hope this becomes a groundswell across the country and wish Gena well in setting up your embryonic session. Going to a 'full on' session can be daunting so anything that helps people getting going is a positive move. It not only supports people at a personal level, but must support and encourage the playing of traditional music. That is a really good thing.
Well done and good luck to those heading the sessions. I'm sure it is hard work at times, but you're doing a great job.
Cheers
Q


Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Squeaky Pete on November 18, 2018, 09:39:49 AM
I've just started going back to sessions after a break of nearly 20 years.
My meloedeoning fingers are getting back up to speed, but the tunes are all new to me, even those the regulars think of as standards. I made the decision to leave my own box at home for the time being as there are always a couple around and my contribution would be fairly limited.
Instead I've brought my bassoon to the party. After a bit of fettling it still seems to work reasonably well and it appears very welcome. My bass notes cut through the assorted mush of massed bass chords and the players can follow this as well as the melody. It certainly seems to help hold back the tendency to speed up.
Our glorious leader is rock steady in tempo on his Anglo, but herding stampeding melodeons is a thankless task. The less confident are easily left behind.
This isn't a steady speed session, but a bit of everything and a few different instruments help the interest.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: brianread on November 18, 2018, 10:16:52 AM
I also run a monthly slow and steady session in a Chorley community centre on a Saturday afternoon.  We get between 15 and 40 participants.  At the moment we have me, a whistle player and a concertina/mandolin couple who take turns to run it.

We have a 3 hour session and we stop half way through for a cuppa and biscuit. We have 3 tune books that we use  - we have printed copies which we give away and pdf and abc versions on the website.  We always start with 5 or 6 from the first volume, generally chosen by the leader, then we branch out into the other volumes, generally by request form the floor.

We charge £2 a session which covers the room hire and also tea and biscuits and printing and website costs.

We get a full panoply of instruments  - the usual ones plus harp and hammer dulcimers, bass, etc.

My way of characterising the speed is to feel it is just "too slow" for comfort!!  The leader starts by playing 8 bars at the speed required (sometimes we have to try again until we agree on the speed), then everyone joins in playing the usual 3 x aabb. I usually try to keep an eye on the room to make sure everyone looks comfortable and on occasion will restart even slower if someone wants. If things speed up I generally play louder and even slower and sometime will shout out as well.  Sometimes we consider bits of tunes where it is clear that things are being mashed up. My favourite issue is not playing the dotted notes and ignoring the occasional rest,

We also play through all the tunes from the first half again in the second half, sometimes treating them as a set and playing straight from one into another. The tunes in the tunebooks are arranged in sets of two.

Someone mentioned that it can be tiring to run but also hugely fulfilling i find this; and sometimes we have some nice musical moments as well.

Here's the website:

http://chorleytradmusicsessions.org.uk/wp/

Tunebooks are on copyleft, so you can do whatever you like with them.





Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 18, 2018, 11:11:05 AM
Squeaky Pete: Ooooh I'd love to hear your Bassoon in a session!
I've been an occasion player in the Radway sessions at the Sidmouth festival in recent years due to other commitments. Sometimes we have Nick Barber on French horn and a cello player and last year a bass saxophone too. It creates such a lovely sound having other instruments in there playing away. Glorious.

You touch on a good point - having a steady lead player.
'Stampeding instruments' is a classic trait. Both Helena ( up there ^^ ) and I attended an instructional last June where the lead musician said he thought people play too fast at sessions.
Every tutor advised using a metronome to maintain a steady pace, and the tutors agreed that 'those tricky bits' is where we all speed up, including them!
When trying to learn the instructionals tunes we'd often get a ' whoa, hang on we're speeding...' and we were.
Q

Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Roger Hare on November 18, 2018, 12:56:59 PM
...website (http://website)...
The website link appears not to be working - I think the URL itself is missing from the underlying text?
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: malcolmbebb on November 18, 2018, 02:05:23 PM
Hi Gena,
I'm up for it, as separately advised - I usually can't get to the other (scarce) local sessions, or just forget!

I think you may be overthinking it a bit, I would advocate discussing topics like tunes, speeds and durations with the attendees rather than trying to have it cut and dried beforehand.

At same time I would also advocate favouring the slower end - there are other sessions (ok, not that many round our way) for the more confident.
Malcolm
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Helena Handcart on November 18, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
...website (http://website)...
The website link appears not to be working - I think the URL itself is missing from the underlying text?

Thank you, and sorry about that. I wrote my post as I was getting ready to head off out this morning. More haste, less speed needed there I think.

Link now corrected but the url is http://ewellsessions.net/
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Lester on November 18, 2018, 04:16:10 PM
and the tutors agreed that 'those tricky bits' is where we all speed up,


Speeding in a built up area
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 18, 2018, 04:52:10 PM
Yes indeed! Well remembered  ;)
Q
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Anahata on November 18, 2018, 05:43:15 PM

Link now corrected but the url is http://ewellsessions.net/

I tried the ABC link on http://ewellsessions.net/tune-book/ and it took me to *my* dropbox account, which of course doesn't have your ABC tunes in it. It displays a message: "The folder ‘/ABC/GreenManSessions’ doesn’t exist."

You have to do something on Dropbox to create a shareable link, but as I don't use DropBox much I can't advise further.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Helena Handcart on November 18, 2018, 06:10:55 PM

Link now corrected but the url is http://ewellsessions.net/

I tried the ABC link on http://ewellsessions.net/tune-book/ and it took me to *my* dropbox account, which of course doesn't have your ABC tunes in it. It displays a message: "The folder ‘/ABC/GreenManSessions’ doesn’t exist."

You have to do something on Dropbox to create a shareable link, but as I don't use DropBox much I can't advise further.

Thanks, I know what I need to do.  It's already shareable... just the wrong link.  As I said I created the entire site on Wednesday night - not the way I usually like to work but time is pressing. Thanks, I can now correct it in time for tonight's session.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: playandteach on November 18, 2018, 07:26:11 PM
There's a a wide range of skills on show, from "haven't played for 10 years", to "sort of just learning", all the way up to "skilled classical musician".
Just a word from a skilled classical musician - we wouldn't be there if we didn't realise that our particular skillset is not fit for purpose for this new hobby. Or perhaps we just want a different type of experience. Many of us have lost or never had the skill of playing by ear or memory, or we can't get our heads around a new instrument.
If you're running it and they are attending, then they feel there is some benefit to them, so don't be afraid of them. They might also make some useful observations, but hopefully they shouldn't be scaring the rest. If they're showing off I stand corrected, and have little time for them.
Good luck, and thanks to all of you who step forward to support these groups.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 18, 2018, 11:35:18 PM
Thanks, there's some really awesome advice shared here, thank you a lot, everyone who has or may post in the future! I think I've really benefitted from reading the shared experiences from either end of the equation.

To playandteach, I mostly called out the range of different people who are participating as there being a broad selection of people attending who most likely are going to digest information in very different ways, and have different categories of problems with the situation & take advice in different ways.

I'm going to definitely try and ensure we have a break. I think the biggest problem right now is that there's not much opportunity for dialog between the people running the show and the people coming along for the ride because there was no social time. I also really like the idea of playing tunes in the first half on their own, and then repeating tunes as a set in the 2nd half - I think that's a good idea.

For reference, since a couple of people have messaged me about it, the session being discussed is being held in Dorset, in Westbourne, between Poole and Bournemouth. Current schedule is aiming for 2nd and 4th Sunday but we'll have we see how we go. If you'd like any further info, drop me a private message and I'll forward you the organiser's details.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Bob Ellis on November 19, 2018, 12:33:37 AM
Good luck with it, Gena.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on November 19, 2018, 08:12:18 AM
Yes, good luck from me too.
Q
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: george garside on November 22, 2018, 07:59:11 PM
Have only just seen this thread as have been away for a couple of weeksworth of Lanzerote sunshine!   For what its worth the 'well known tunes at a steady pace' sessions that I ran at Whitby and Sidmouth festivals for many years worked as follows.

 the basic ' rule' was that nobody started a tune spontaneously!  I would ask what shall we start with or what shall we play next   and when somebody made a a suggestion I would  then ask ' how many takers for that?  If there were no takers I would ask for another suggestion  and repeat the any takers for that  . If a reasonable number of afirmative nods were given we would play that particular tune  .  If at the end of three times through more people were starting to join in  we would continue for another three times through. 

I would aslo ask if anyone would like to start the chosen tune  and  if somebody fairly new to the instrument and session playing started off on the slow side of slow  and others tried to 'take over' I would stop the proceedings  and ask people to follow the speed of the person who started the tune  as a way of encouraging  'newcomers' to have a go without feeling [put down'


In case nobody came up with a suggestion I had a crib sheet of what I considered to be well known tunes  to use to make suggestions  ( I honed this list over 20 years  ticking tunes that were played  either from my list of if not on my list  adding them to it and eventually deleting ones that had no 'takers' . i.e. it became a sort of rolling list.

On the very rare occasions when someone from the smart arse department  tried to take 'steady pace ' up to 'warp speed' I would stop mid tune  and politely ask them to
keep to my speed or bugger off!

The sessions were always well attended ( most being 156  as counted by stewards on the door at Sidmouth one year)   so I must have been doing something right???!!!

george :||: :||:
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: AnnC on November 23, 2018, 06:16:53 PM
  (:) there's a very friendly fortnightly " slow and steady" session started in the Salmon Leap Pub at Sleights, next session on Thursday the 29th Nov, 3pm to 5pm.
 All acoustic instruments welcome, the tunes used are generally well known ones, many from the Tuneworks books with a few extras.
 Maggie, who runs the session either chooses a tune or, like George asks for suggestions, then sets the pace by either playing a recording of the tune, playing it herself or asking the person who suggested it to set a steady tempo so that people can hear what speed it goes at and "by ear" players have a chance to pick it up  ;D
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 27, 2018, 12:04:54 PM
Thanks again for all the advice!

We had our 2nd session on Sunday evening. This time we had a printed tune list which was formed from 'the list of tunes we'd thought of for the 1st session and a few that had been played', less one or two here and there probably. Quite a lot of familiar faces from the week before, quite a few new faces and even one or two who I knew from elsewhere as well.

One of either my session leading compatriot Andy, or the guy organising the logistics Nigel, decided we should pretty much just go down the list of tunes we had in the order the were written, which I didn't object to. We (95% of the time anyway) called out the names of the tune ahead of playing them, but, we did not separate tune sets - I think we probably should have. I tried to ensure I called 'changing' and 'finishing' when we were going to do so, since, the structure of the pub we're playing in is just not conducive to being in a circle where everyone can see everyone else.

We had a break in the middle and that afforded me the chance to talk to quite a few people, plus, as is my way, meet box players I hadn't met before and ask them how it was going etc, so, I think that was a positive addition, although maybe the break was a bit long as we just sort of decided 'we're having a break and uhmhmhmehm...' and eventually started back up a while later. We just carried on with what we had been doing, though, with no change to the format.

After we got to the end of the list, we had some time left still, so, I asked if there were any tunes that people wanted to play or lead etc. We did get one request but that was all - next time I'll emphasize that the idea of offering to repeat a tune from earlier, too. We did have less leftover time though, playing the tunes 3x each but slower still had a palpable difference on that front, too.

So, it didn't feel like a very open session, as Andy and I pretty much just followed a programme the whole time. I brought along my iPad and set it up on a table running the oft-recommended-by-me LiveBPM app. It struggled to pick up a tempo for some of the tunes, but, was generally a stalwart ally - we kept the tempo for our common time tunes at around 140 to 150 beats per minute, although at the time it felt glacially slow to me - I think many of these would normally be at over 180, and 'Ceilidh dance speed' has usually worked out at around 200-220+. 140bpm, however, is exactly the sort of speed I normally play for step hop border morris, so I'm sure it could go slower still and not sound like a dirge. Keeping it slow, if it started to get away, wasn't easy, and my ability to reign it in depended on how much my bass buttons had to compete with, and at least on one occasion I looked around the room and saw that people were able to still play it, so just let it go. Worrying about the tempo is probably the most stressful part, I'm sure it will come with experience - Jigs especially posed a challenge for me.

I'm not sure what we expect to do next month with the tune list, whether we'll move away from the one we've been using and swap entirely to a new list, or partial changes, or what. That to me seems like a terrible idea from the perspective of people learning tunes, but it would add some variety. People seemed to have a good time though - I talked to melnet's own Malcolm a bit - his experience was mostly that it was still too fast to sight reed unfamiliar tunes from their scores, but tunes he knew he could come along for the ride on.

I've become aware of a facebook group for Beginners and Improvers Tunes Sessions (BITS) so give that a search if this kind of thing is of interest to you.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: brianread on November 27, 2018, 02:28:11 PM
Thanks Gena for the heads up on the BITS group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/502906953217878/

I've just posted details of our S&S in Chorley, Lancs this Saturday.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: george garside on November 27, 2018, 03:13:30 PM
tuneworks  provide several FREE  to download session tune books aand have a number of local  sessions using these books. Also run sessions at a number of festivals including Shrewsbury.   Of course anyone is welcome to start/run or whatever  a session using their tunebooks

just google tuneworks for more info


george
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Andrew Wigglesworth on November 27, 2018, 03:22:16 PM
<snip>  we kept the tempo for our common time tunes at around 140 to 150 beats per minute, although at the time it felt glacially slow to me - I think many of these would normally be at over 180, and 'Ceilidh dance speed' has usually worked out at around 200-220+. 140bpm, however, is exactly the sort of speed I normally play for step hop border morris, so I'm sure it could go slower still and not sound like a dirge. </snip>

I think your app must be miscounting, or maybe just doubling up on the beats per minute count. 180bpm is fast rapper speed, and ceilidh dance speed for jigs and reels is certainly not 200-220+ bpm, more like 120bpm or so. Border morris at 140bpm would certainly be a sight to behold  ;D
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 27, 2018, 08:51:49 PM
I think your app must be miscounting, or maybe just doubling up on the beats per minute count. 180bpm is fast rapper speed, and ceilidh dance speed for jigs and reels is certainly not 200-220+ bpm, more like 120bpm or so. Border morris at 140bpm would certainly be a sight to behold  ;D

Well, I am translating what the app hears, since it's unable to relate tempos over 200 beats per minute. But, I'm pretty sure this is going to depend how you want to count tempo. If you'd count out a common time 4/4 tune as "One And Two And" as 2 beats rather than "One Two Three Four" as 4 beats, then, sure ok divide those numbers in half. The dancers do, afterall - "Step and Step and", but will often stick on an 'and'. So, to be clear, I'm counting crotchets/quarter notes per minute, and if you set a metronome to eg 140, there would be 4 clicks per bar of 4/4. I certainly know which way I would encourage anyone to do it, given the ubiquity of quavers.

We often found dance notation that uses both methodologies interchangeably, which has caused our caller some issues, so, I'm not surprised to see some uncertainty/differences of opinion.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 27, 2018, 09:17:55 PM
...Border morris at 140bpm would certainly be a sight to behold  ;D

...if you set a metronome to eg 140, there would be 4 clicks per bar of 4/4. I certainly know which way I would encourage anyone to do it, given the ubiquity of quavers.


Most people I know (who think about this at all) think of common time tempo as two downbeats to the bar. It's the way you tap your feet They would count BPM as downbeats per minute.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 28, 2018, 12:17:51 AM
Most people I know (who think about this at all) think of common time tempo as two downbeats to the bar. It's the way you tap your feet They would count BPM as downbeats per minute.

Well, however you want to do it - to some extent that was one of the reasons for my adding the context of other tempos for ways people might be familiar with playing: if you think that those numbers seem off, you can probably see a type of playing you're at least somewhat familiar with and realise it's a factor of two different, and from there it's a pretty easy conversion to know what tempo I'm talking about.

I guess maybe I'll just write 1/4=140 in the future, or, 140 crotchets per minute, I imagine that's clearer? This wasn't really supposed to be a treatise on counting beats per bar, though - neither way of counting it is objectively ridiculous. But, I mean, I'll often foottap the 4 beats of a bar, so both down beats and up beats, as often as I'll just tap the downbeats. To the best of my recollection, every single piece of music software I have ever used, even ABC (https://ifdo.ca/~seymour/runabc/abcguide/abc2midi_body.html#tempo), has worked in this way as a baseline. People start tunes sometimes with 'one two three four'. You can see why I might have a hard time buying into a different methodology as the default.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Steve_freereeder on November 28, 2018, 08:15:24 AM
...Border morris at 140bpm would certainly be a sight to behold  ;D

...if you set a metronome to eg 140, there would be 4 clicks per bar of 4/4. I certainly know which way I would encourage anyone to do it, given the ubiquity of quavers.


Most people I know (who think about this at all) think of common time tempo as two downbeats to the bar. It's the way you tap your feet They would count BPM as downbeats per minute.

Common time, often indicated by the 'C' symbol as a time signature, means a time signature of 4/4. In turn this usually implies four crotchet beats to a bar.
However, as Greg has pointed out, many traditional tunes naturally fall into a pulse of two beats to a bar, particularly reels and 'straight' hornpipes. When notating these tunes, it is better to use a time signature of 2/2 or so-called 'cut time', sometimes shown as a 'C' with a vertical line through it. This immediately shifts the expectation of the reader/player to feel or play a pulse of two minim beats to a bar.

For example, the tune 'Speed the Plough' is often notated in 4/4 but when you play or sing it, the feel is definitely in a pulse of two beats to a bar. Hence the tune should really be shown with a time signature of 2/2.

I guess maybe I'll just write 1/4=140 in the future, or, 140 crotchets per minute, I imagine that's clearer?
Much better to put your time signature as M: 2/2 and indcate your tempo as Q: 1/2=70
70 BPM is a good steady pulse to feel; 140 BPM is unrealistically fast - you'd have a job marching to that speed, let alone dancing.

Mathematically, 4/4 is equivalent to 2/2, but the feel of each is quite different. We should really notate tunes the way they feel, not by mathematics.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on November 28, 2018, 08:52:38 AM
I suppose this relates to the difference between music in theory and music in practice. In terms of steady sessions, an understanding of this would have helped me a lot when I started out trying to make music (in pre-internet days).

A goal of everyone making music must be to play at tempo. Slow sessions are a step towards that. I couldn't work out how I could possibly play a tune at tempo when I couldn't even tap my foot at that rate and I had no mentor who could put me straight and I didn't know how a lot of the tunes I was trying to play should really sound. I found this very demoralising.

Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Gena Crisman on November 28, 2018, 10:11:27 AM
Idk I just wanted to relate what happened, and what my plans are so a) if they're bad for learners then hopefully someone can offer more advice and b) if someone else reads this in 1000 years maybe they will feel more equipped in some way based on my experiences.

If I was a budding steady speed sessionist today, maybe if I wanted to practice at home or know what the experience of going might be like, I'd grab a metronome app for my phone, or, load up a rhythm program on a keyboard, or fire up some random youtube video of some guy drumming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vhnxYfWco8), and if I plugged the values I quoted in, those seem to be the values to use in order to get the resulting beat to play over that I would expect, I guess? Clearly that's coming at things from a pretty different direction, and maybe that colours all of my expectations. Even with what little actual dancing I've done, this is how I feel the dance tempo, since you have the step on the down and the hop on the up/off/back beats. Maybe I should say I mean 'bells per minute'...

However one feels ones tempo, I think an important part of the process of playing music with others is that you experience the process of almost missing a beat in the same way that outside observers would: by getting left behind. That process is one that ought to help hone your internal tempo keeping mechanisms. In terms of playing with others, I mean, yes you'll have to all agree on a speed to play, otherwise you're getting left behind every beat, and that isn't going to be helpful at all. My experience though, is that in order for the music to be useful, you don't have to play very fast at all really. But people like to play at what feels like a comfortable speed for them, and the more confident and capable they are, the faster that speed will be. Being at a session and feeling completely left behind totally sucks - a combination of feeling like I was missing out on something amazing, and being terrified of being pulled into another morris dancing workshop, are the two things that really pushed me to take up playing music for real, and I'm glad I feel like I'm able to hang in the sessions that I go to.

Hopefully, we're helping by offering another space for people to build their confidence and ability, but, maybe it's not quite right yet - only time will slowly tell. It's hard to experience it the same way they are. Reading Greg's experiences... reminds me of that feeling of missing out - I think a lot of the time we don't really realise the impact how what we're playing can have on people who can't quite manage to join in. Things have really improved and information is much more available now, so hopefully fewer people end up getting pushed away from this hobby.

I must say though, personally, I find maths super helpful when talking about music. Why? Because everyone feels everything differently, even from themselves on different days. Several times now, I've recorded a tempo that was described as 'correct' for a specific type of dance and then, when regurgitating that information to the same person who'd told me it was correct, have had what I've said challenged, and undermined as if I imagined or came up with the information myself, usually because I don't have any experience dancing and they have a lot and it 'just doesn't feel right' to them. If we can find a way to write that down then maybe, but, until that time I know where I'll place my hat. In my mind, it doesn't matter what the tempo reading I get or what speed I set my metronome to, what matters is that I look for the same numbers when we play, so what I'm using it for is to be consistent and help make decisions.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: george garside on November 28, 2018, 11:44:58 AM
I have never indulged in counting beats or whatevers when running a  ''slow'' session.   I   find that  jigs and reels  are fine played at something on the lines of a 'march' speed works fine  . Hornpipes eg harvest home, boys of bluehill etc  slow down to cringe speed  to get the right notes in the right order  and depending on how that goes try to move to a slowed down hornpipe rhtym  - doesn't sound perfect but so what!   Waltzes  are useful  particulary those with words  eg daisy daisy, oh dear what can the matter be, endearing young charms, wild colonial boy, black velvet band etc etc.


If timing is going way out I  play my bass as loudly, but crisply, as possible to give people something to hang on to  or aim at and walk round the room while so doing so everybody gets a chance of hearing my solid UM PA's or UM, PA PA's,

If all else fails I halt the proceedings  and give a short demo of what I want people to aim for. I also ask the more proficient  to keep down to the pace I am setting  and remind them that we were all absolute beginners at one time!

Worrying about precise speed as per metronome or electronic device  is , in my experience more likely to hinder  than help.   

george >:E ;)
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Bob Ellis on November 28, 2018, 04:21:59 PM
I agree with George, which is hardly surprising because I took over from him a few years ago running slow and steady sessions at Sidmouth and Whitby Folk Weeks. For me, a metronome is too inflexible and can create an artificial constraint. Different sessions require different speeds, even though all of them are slower than normal. The clientele is different each time and it is a matter of observation, judgment and asking for regular feedback to determine what speed works best for any particular tune in any particular session.

I try to play sitting down where I can, which makes the impact greater when I need to hold back a tune because then I stand up and start to stamp out the rhythm with my feet. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it can be a great help to have a good rhythm guitarist to support you, who can be relied on to watch for clues about the pace and to keep it rock steady. Thank you, Jannette (who fulfils this role for me and also plays the melodeon - but not at the same time!)
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: george garside on November 28, 2018, 04:47:10 PM
and perhaps its worth keeping in mind that many  'folk tunes'  were simply passed on  'by ear'  and their original 'speed. tempo and rhythm  developed  either purposely of accidentaly  according to where and by whom they were passed on and where they were being played. - land long may that tradition continue!

eg a 4/4 can be anything from a haunting slow air to a fast reel  with fast and slow marches chucked in somehere in between. Similary a 6/8  can be played as an air, a waltz , fast or slow march  etc etc. .  Also as to how fast should a waltz be played  there is no single answer, the same tune can ogften be played as a fast whirly vienese waltz or  a slow smoochy 'last waltz' or again anything in between.   


Playing trad music is all about getting the feel of a tune and if playing for dancers  watching the dancers feet and being aware that the speed  may need to vary slightly in which case metronomic accuracy could well and truly bugger it up!


But of course everybody to their own


george :||: :|||: :M :|glug :|glug :|glug
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Helena Handcart on November 28, 2018, 04:56:53 PM
Thanks Gena for the heads up on the BITS group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/502906953217878/

I've just posted details of our S&S in Chorley, Lancs this Saturday.

I saw and approved both your requests to join the group. I'd be interested to know if you pick up any interest that. way, I promote our Ewell steady sessions from time to time but I'm not aware anyone has joined our group that way.  Not that we're short of attendees anyway.  All the best with your respective sessions.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: brianread on November 28, 2018, 05:50:02 PM
Thanks Gena for the heads up on the BITS group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/502906953217878/

I've just posted details of our S&S in Chorley, Lancs this Saturday.

I saw and approved both your requests to join the group. I'd be interested to know if you pick up any interest that. way, I promote our Ewell steady sessions from time to time but I'm not aware anyone has joined our group that way.  Not that we're short of attendees anyway.  All the best with your respective sessions.

Thanks. Regarding promotion - we are also pretty "full"  - almost 40 people attended last month, 120 on the mailing list.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Helena Handcart on December 03, 2018, 01:07:39 PM
With apologies for the thread drift. Here's a funny thing about running steady-speed sessions....

Sometimes the whole enterprise can be a chore. Yesterday looked set to be one of those times. Having spent the best part of three days in bed struck down with dread lurgy I was up and about again  yesterday but not in the mood to go out, let alone facilitate at the December session.  Had I not been in the chair I would have stayed in and had an early night.  Noises to this effect were made domestically but fell (so I thought) on deaf ears.

Having dragged myself to the Famous Green Man for tunes I was met with friendly smiling faces and although the session was not officially our mince pie Christmas bash one friend had brought us home made mince pies, another brought two boxes of chocolates for the company, yet another had an outbreak of premature Christmas jumper syndrome which raised a smile.  The company were on good form, about 20 of us with a few notable absences and a new face or two.  As it turned out my partner had not ignored my comments about not being up to leading and had been practising some tunes he's not usually so confident to start and basically took the weight off my shoulders, ably assisted by some of our stalwart regulars. Naming no names (and especially not Lester).

In short, what felt like a chore an an imposition turned out to be a most enjoyable evening with some great people, lovely tunes, treats and smiles.  Just when I least expected it and really needed it.  So yay for running steady-speed sessions and for the unexpected joys they bring  :|||:.

Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: Chris Rayner on December 03, 2018, 05:00:27 PM
I just hope I haven’t caught your ghastly complaint Helena.  I had a good time too, I really must put more practice in.
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: smiley on December 04, 2018, 09:46:48 AM
... basically took the weight off my shoulders, ably assisted by some of our stalwart regulars. Naming no names (and especially not Lester).

There's a story*  that Lester was asked at a session to play some of his favourites ... and he was still going six years later   :||:



* which I just made up
Title: Re: Running Steady Speed Sessions
Post by: David J on January 02, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
Hi Gena

Just picked up this thread. I've been running a Steady Session in Hampshire https://altonsteadysession.wordpress.com/ (https://altonsteadysession.wordpress.com/)for 4 years and it's had up to 40 attendees, although has now settled to 25-30 (which makes it more manageable).
The range of abilities is quite large, and to help new players we have a selection of easier tunes in the first half, and then play the more challenging ones in the second half. I pitched the session at people who were at least able to play several tunes competently, and not to cater for absolute beginners, so some newbies have tried it and not returned (but I hope they will when they feel more confident). It's also important to keep the session regulars interested and engaged, so I've introduced 3/2 tunes and other more 'interesting' tunes as we progressed.
Although there are a lot of melodeon players who come, I also try to remind myself that there are tunes which other instruments will enjoy even if box players find them technically challenging (current tune of the month Da Slockit Light is a case in point).
We also still have several people who need to read the dots, although I have done my best to encourage them to turn the iPads over, and in general I don't now announce the tunes to be played. If people still can't remember, they can ask a neighbour - the general idea being to try to create a more usual session vibe.
Lastly, best of luck with your metronome! Tunes will speed up, and if somebody starts a tune really too quickly, I may have to intercede, but try not to. However, as people get really familiar with the repertoire, the favourites do stick to the beginning tempo, and in the end, if everybody enjoys themselves, that's really what it's all about.
Best of luck with your session - the idea is certainly very popular, and in my area two other Steady Sessions have started after mine.
David
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