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Discussions => Tunes => ABC => Topic started by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 12:04:05 PM

Title: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
Following on from the discussions in this thread (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,23236.0.html) I'm moving the conversation into the ABC forum to avoid futher thread drift. Things are moving along and Chris P thinks it's a goer so the usual well-oiled VMP machinery is cranking up in the background. If you've registered an interest in helping with the transcriptions please be patient, VMP projects are carefully researched, organised and planned before the transcribers get to work
So far Steve_Freereeder, thrupenny bit and lachenal74693 seem pretty keen to get involved. I would ask that nobody jumps the gun and starts transcibing anything just yet, or if you have already done so, be prepared to edit your work to the VMP format for ABC files including the headers specific to this project (yet to be decided). Accuracy of transcription is far more important than speed as it saves a huge amount of work at the proofreading and editing stage.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 21, 2018, 12:27:34 PM
Thanks for the update Pete, and also splitting it off into the abc forum.
I will wait patiently, but somewhat excited  (:)
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
From the other thread:

Slight thread-drift kicking in...

...the notes on the VMP web site about how the ABC files are made...
https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17 (https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17)..

Thank you - I hadn't spotted that. Helpful. My SOPs are not radically different from that. Remembering
that I'm producing scores primarily for my own private use, the two main differences are:

1) I use spaces generously to produce an 'easily readable' ABC script, and tend to explicitly specify
    opening and closing repeat markers (ie: |: . . . :| rather than ::
2) I (generally) restrict myself to the sub-set X:, T:, C:, M:, L:, Q:, R:, P:, K:, P:, w:, W: (usually)
    in that order. I tend to use comments (leading %) in place of all t'others (N:, D:, B:, Z:, O:, H:,
    etc.).

I use commands to the abc2midi and abc2ps programs as required (eg: I use a sans-serif font as
default). These can be global or local in scope, as required.

Why? Because this approach produces a simple, uncluttered, simple score - which I really, really need.
All t'other information will be there, it's just hidden from view.

:: is only used in the middle of a line of code because :||: doesn't parse properly and doesn't look right on the page. Repeat marks at the beginning or end of a line are of course |: and :| respectively. Redundant spaces are not allowed in VMP files and if they are there it gives the proofreader/editor another job to do removing them. Header fields must be as specified to maintain consistency across the transcriptions, the exceptions being R: and Q: which are optional. The files I write for the VMP are very different from the trancriptions I write for myself which have a number of %% commands in them, I prefer sans serif too.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on December 21, 2018, 01:24:18 PM
I'm up for helping out with this.  I am comfortable with ABC and use it extensively to produce dots for band tunes but this would be my first foray into such a project, so would understand if VMP wanted people with more experience. N
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 01:50:35 PM
If you are comfortable with ABC Nigel you have all of the experience needed! The hardest part with handwritten manuscripts is legibility and the use of old fashioned marks that are no longer used. Deciding what to do about obvious errors is another issue and there are times when you need ask for guidance, just leave that tune for the time being and get on with another.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on December 21, 2018, 02:05:28 PM
If you are comfortable with ABC Nigel you have all of the experience needed! The hardest part with handwritten manuscripts is legibility and the use of old fashioned marks that are no longer used. Deciding what to do about obvious errors is another issue and there are times when you need ask for guidance, just leave that tune for the time being and get on with another.
Thanks Pete.  I've looked at a few of the ABC files on the VMP site and they look straightforward - obviously a set of semantic rules to learn and adhere to, but otherwise OK. Certainly wouldn't be shy of asking for guidance, though  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 21, 2018, 03:39:34 PM
nigelr - I'm a relatively new to ABC but Pete has been patient and guided me through tunes in the past.
You won't be the only person never to have done anything on this scale before!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 21, 2018, 04:42:59 PM
As mentioned in the other thread, I'm available to help out with this project. Awaiting the go-ahead from Chris and/or Pete. I can always be contacted by PM.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on December 21, 2018, 04:50:49 PM
I note the 'riders' and 'restrictions' relating to the production of ABC scripts for VMP projects.

I've already transcribed a few tunes for personal use, and will see how easy it is to do a global edit to
convert them to the preferred VMP layout for this specific project, if and when it is finalised. I'm restricting
myself at the moment to only those tunes in the first indexed section which have a 'modern' PDF-based
transcription available (~25 out of 79 tunes, I think).

I have PM'd Pete Dunk to this effect.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on December 21, 2018, 05:49:59 PM
I've also contacted Chris P to indicate an interest in joining the coding team.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 21, 2018, 06:35:02 PM
I would be happy to lend a hand (and I promise to avoid !)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 07:26:55 PM
I have PM'd Pete Dunk to this effect.

Roger

I've sent an email to the address at the bottom of your post Roger.

I would be happy to lend a hand (and I promise to avoid !)

Noted!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 21, 2018, 09:05:45 PM
As mentioned in the other thread, I'm available to help out with this project. Awaiting the go-ahead from Chris and/or Pete. I can always be contacted by PM.

Hi Steve, I noted your interest in the top post of this thread, I'm certain that everyone who wants in will be welcomed with open arms, it just takes a while to get going. Chris is hoping to get direct access to the images so he can gather them together and dole them out in batches, the size of each batch is yet to be decided but won't exceed 50 tunes each from past experience, 30 is quite common.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 02:40:06 PM
Ah, so this is where you all are!
Seasonal matters are slowing things down a bit for me. I've had a closer look at the images on the website and I think we can work from them, either straight off the screen or downloaded as you prefer. Saves the bother and possible time lag of going to Canada for them. Having looked at the owner's comments on the website they seem happy for us to proceed without further niceties.
Personally I find it convenient to have my editing program on the pooter screen, and read the MS on a second screen above or to one side, then I'm not switching back and forth manually.
So far I count nine volunteers:- Pete, Anahata, Steve M, David J, I already have contacts for. The following I either don't know, or don't have email addresses:-Thrupenny Bit, NigelR, Freereeder (Steve Dunkerley?), Lachenal (Roger..?), Tone Dumb Greg. PM me or email to cpartington (at)outlook(dot)com to update me please. There may be others, get in touch.
The MS is broken into eleven webpages, https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/ (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/)  each containing between 16 and 20 manuscript pages. Transcribers work at widely variable speeds, depending upon personal factors, so I will allocate each transcriber half a webpage (which I will describe for you individually), which may amount to about 30-40 tunes each per spasm.
I have details of how to proceed and what is required from you, which I will put on my webpage presently and link to from here.
For now could all who want to get started let me know now. I note that Lachenal has already begun, so may as well carry on as far as and including tune #43
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 23, 2018, 02:43:48 PM
So far I count nine volunteers:- Pete, Anahata, Steve M, David J, I already have contacts for. The following I either don't know, or don't have email addresses:-Thrupenny Bit, NigelR, Freereeder (Steve Dunkerley?), Lachenal (Roger..?), Tone Dumb Greg. PM me or email to cpartington (at)outlook(dot)com to update me please.
Nope! PM sent!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 04:52:29 PM
Here is a link to a hint page for transcribing VMP files. Let me know if it needs further clarification (it prolly will). http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 23, 2018, 05:08:38 PM

...Let me know if it needs further clarification...


It seems pretty straight forward. A couple of things came to mind.

1. Where header elements are optional (such as B:) it would be easier to have them be either in or out, rather than leave them to individual judgement.

2. A definitive example of good practice would be good.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 05:48:17 PM
Yes I agree about the B: field. That was general guidance but for this project where there are so many different hands at work it would be better to leave it out and let me take care of it afterwards and consistently. As for examples there are about 12000 of them elsewhere on my site :)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
Looking at it, isn't that what I implied? Anyway, I've added a few words.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 23, 2018, 07:43:23 PM
Thanks for clarifying
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 23, 2018, 08:07:59 PM
OK, I've sent 11 batches out so far, one or two by Melnet PM. If you are expecting one and haven't received, let me know. That would take us about half way. Obviously don't rush, we all have other lives to lead. If transcribing from the previous transcriptions, leave out the chords and check for accuracy against the originals.
I think Greg was right, btw, so I'll add to my Hint page an example of what a tune should ideally look like when I receive it, and before I mount it in the wild.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 25, 2018, 08:30:54 PM
I must be very sad. I am entertaining myself this Christmas by having a bash at coding my first tune from the Buttrey MS  ;D

It raises a few questions in my mind. I hope it's OK to ask them here.

The title of tune 375, as given in the list following the image of the page, is "O What My Bomey Graney Was  A Quick Step 6/8 D  Carroll – K. Purvis".

1. This title appears to be a corruption of "O What A Beau My Granny Was".  A  tune with this and similar, titles is found in a number of 18th and 19th C tune manuscripts, not to mention modern sessions. It is, however a completely unrelated tune. Is my Z: comment appropriate and sufficient?
2. I assume that the reference to Carroll-K. Purvis is an alternative title (Carroll) from another source (K. Purvis). Is this noted correctly in the second title? I suspect not.
3. In the manuscript, in the third bar of the A Part, the last note was originally written as a G. This is crossed out and replaced with a B. I have noted this in a Z: comment as NB1. Is this appropriate and done correctly?

X:375
T:O What My Bomey Graney Was. JBut.375
T:Carroll, aka, (K.Purvis). Jbut.375
Z:The title appears to be  a corruption of “What A Beau My Granny Was”
Z:This, and close variations, is the title of a  tune in  4/4 found in a number
Z:of 18thC/19thC tune books. This is a very different tune to that one.
Z:NB1. In the manuscript, in the third bar of the A Part, the last note was originally written as a G. This was crossed out and replaced with a B.
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=100
K:D
R:Quick Step
gfd e2c|d2B A2G|FAd F2"NB1"B|E3E3|
gfd e2c|d2B A2G|FDE c3|dD2 D3:|
|:GFA D2F|G2B E2G|FAd f2e|E3E3|
GFA d2f| g2e d2c|d2B A2G|FD2 D3:|

[Edit: I noticed that quotation marks around NB1 seem to have altered and don't work if I copy and paste back into my ABC editor. The originals work fine. Not sure what's happening there]
[Another edit: I don't know if Quick Step is a suitable tune type]
[Yet another edit: Or should the title be
T:O What My Bomey Graney Was. A Quick Step. JBut.375 ?]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 25, 2018, 10:42:47 PM
Have a good look at this file and then come back after the headers are a bit sorted (tomorrow!)  :|glug http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 25, 2018, 11:17:59 PM
Have a good look at this file and then come back after the headers are a bit sorted (tomorrow!)  :|glug http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html)

OK. I will say, though, that I can't see my query addressed in your guidance (quite) and I can't find an example that covers it. I suspect there is something I don't understand and I'd rather sort it sooner than later.

I was, also, wondering how much editorial licence is allowed. The coding below should be explanatory

T:To the 25th Reg’t A Quick Step Jbut.376
T:The Cheshire Regiment, Aird Vol 6,aka. JBut.376
T:March West Surrey – K. Purvis,aka. JBut.376
Z:Manuscript does not have a repeat mark at the start of the A Part
Z:Repeat mark inserted after pick up note to make repeat scan.
M:2/4
L:1/16
Q:1/4=100
K:G
R:Quick Step
D2|:G2BG A2cA|B2dB G2B2|c2ec B2dB|A2BG (GFE)D|
G2BG A2cA|B2dB c2e2|(edc)B (cBA)G|DGFA G4:|
|:(gfg)e (edc)B|(gfg)e (edc)B|c2ec B2dB|A2BG (GFE)D|
G2BG A2cA|B2dB c2e2|(edc)B (cBA)G|DGFA G4:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 26, 2018, 12:26:39 AM
I've been using the Z: field simply to record (a) The Villgae Music Project, (b) the date (year) and (c) the name of the transcriber, me. See the example in Chris's 'Hints' which he gave earlier.

Also from the 'Hints', as far as I can see, transcriber's notes go in the N: field:
Quote
N: If you know any interesting anecdotes, here's the place for them. Also the place for NB’d comments


Here's one of my transcriptions:

X:46
T:Three Camps. JBut.046, The
T:3 Camps. JBut.046, The %Title as given in MS
Z:Village Music Project 2018 Steve Dumpleton
N:Bars 8 and 16: crotchets in MS changed to dotted crotchets in transcription
N:to correspond with pick-up bars at start of each tune section.
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=120
K:G
|:c|B2 A2|G2 g2|f2 e2|d/^c/d/e/ d=c|
B2 A2|G2 g2|f2 !trill!e2|d3:|
|:d|gd {c}BA/G/|!trill!e2 d2|(c/d/e/)d/ cB|!trill!A3 c|
B2 A2|G2 g2|B2 cA|G3:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 26, 2018, 12:41:02 AM
Ta for this Steve, my reply was drastically more ascerbic and decidedly nastier. Just saying ... twiddles thumbs.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 26, 2018, 09:25:33 AM
Sorry, my reply came across as acerbic, it was meant to be amusing; being 10.45 Xmas night the headers referred to my addled head sorted next day, hence the drinking emoji.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 26, 2018, 09:56:59 AM
Ta for this Steve, my reply was drastically more ascerbic and decidedly nastier. Just saying ... twiddles thumbs.

???   (:)

Probably serves me right for being active on Christmas Day. In my defence, I was enjoying myself and didn't expect anyone else to be on line. Just doing it while it was in my head.


I've been using the Z: field simply to record (a) The Villgae Music Project, (b) the date (year) and (c) the name of the transcriber, me. See the example in Chris's 'Hints' which he gave earlier.

Also from the 'Hints', as far as I can see, transcriber's notes go in the N: field:
Quote
N: If you know any interesting anecdotes, here's the place for them. Also the place for NB’d comments

Here's one of my transcriptions:


Thanks Steve

Sorry if I was being dim, Chris.

I still haven't seen something which sorts out one thing I'm confused on.
Is the the way to ascribe a source for an aka?

T:Carroll,aka, (K.Purvis). Jbut.375
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 26, 2018, 11:41:54 AM
Ah, I see what you mean, having looked at the MS. The image, and that is what we are transcribing, merely says "O What a Beau (or Beauty? I can't make it out and the index doesn't help) my Granny was" - then does it faintly say "A Quickstep"? I see no reference to carrols or K.Purvis, which seems to be a note added by the Canadian transcriber or editor which doesn't concern us. It may be that K. Purvis was the transcriber and knows that it was written by Carroll? Could Google it, and if so then that info would be added as C:Carroll or whatever. Further investigation may or may not help.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 26, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Sorry I'm being a bit garbled, still doing Xmas things. Back later.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 26, 2018, 04:37:54 PM
Oh What a Bomey etc. Haha, the author is unfamiliar with the French and has gone all phonetic!
It appears to be the theatrical song tune we know, but in 6/8 instead of common time. At least as old as late 18thc, very popular for over 50 years
Note the second title added, with ,aka = "also known as"
"Carroll – K. Purvis" is a modern annotation, and K.Purvis is the modern editor. I can't find anything explaining the Carroll bit. If the original author has left an annotation then we add it to the C: field in single apostrophes.  I've therefore added C:'A Quickstep', and since it is now an author-specified rhythm I've also added R:Quickstep. If there is a modern annotation we should try and verify it before adding it in C:.  To avoid cluttering up the display, modern annotations, such as Purvis's, can be noted and credited in the N: field if they make sense. In this case we don't know what it means so no-one else will; I'd leave it out.
The ASCII double apostrophes on your keyboard can get "helpfully" misinterpreted as directional quotes by various software, HTML, some editing programs, and Wordpress (and perhaps the forum software?):  However, as long as the file stays as a .txt or .abc file this shouldn't happen. For this post I copy&pasted the text and the double apostrophes stayed as intended. If asked by the software, I save my work in UTF-8 (allows many more characters, over 1,000), which is backwards compatible with ASCII. I'm sure others could explain that better than I.
I am very confident that the B in bar 3 that you see is in fact a blot!
I have no preference as to the order of fields in the header, as long as X: and T: are at the beginning and K: is the last field before the tune body.
You can save yourself a lot of typing by leaving out the Z: field and adding it in globally at the end or in a template at the beginning, depending which program you're using. In Explorer it can be done within the program, or you or I can do it in a word processor.

X:375
T:O What My Bomey Graney Was. JBut.375
T:Oh What a Beau My Granny Was,aka. JBut.375
N:The title appears to be  a corruption of "What A Beau My Granny Was"
N:This, and close variations, is the title of a  tune in  4/4 found in a number
N:of 18thC/19thC tune books. This is a 6/8 version that one.
Z:vmp.2019.G(or Greg if you prefer etc).Smith.
C:'A Quickstep'
R:Quickstep
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=100
K:D
gfd e2c|d2B A2G|FAd F2G|E3E3|
gfd e2c|d2B A2G|FDE c3|dD2 D3:|
|:GFA D2F|G2B E2G|FAd f2e|E3E3|
GFA d2f| g2e d2c|d2B A2G|FD2 D3:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 26, 2018, 10:47:37 PM
Thanks Chris that's answered my only question which was about the syntax of the tune numbering in the title. Any new transcribers should be aware that there is a closed group on Facebook for VMP and other serious abc transcribers where we can chat about current projects and matters arising from them. Message me and I'll send you a link to join the group. If you want to add me on FB search for peter<dot>dunk<dot>75

There is also a forum for abc users (http://abc-notation-users.freeforums.net/) which has really failed to take off. I think it's possible to add a section just for VMP transcribers to save non-Facebook users from missing out, please let me know if you think this is a good idea and I will try to sort it out. Welcome to all new volunteers and well done team, I think this will be a great project!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 26, 2018, 11:00:27 PM
There is also a forum for abc users (http://abc-notation-users.freeforums.net/) which has really failed to take off. I think it's possible to add a section just for VMP transcribers to save non-Facebook users from missing out, please let me know if you think this is a good idea and I will try to sort it out.
Thanks Pete! I don't use Facebook so the VMP forum within melnet would be a good idea for me.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 26, 2018, 11:22:35 PM
Steve, you're already an Admin here (http://abc-notation-users.freeforums.net/) but like so many others you have visited once or twice then got bored and wandered off. If you've forgotten your username, email address or original IP I can remind you of them, can't help with lost passwords though, sorry!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 26, 2018, 11:35:36 PM
Thanks Pete! I don't use Facebook so the VMP forum within melnet would be a good idea for me.

Just to be clear the ABC Transcriber's forum is entirely unrelated to Melnet. It's a free and completely private bit of webspace for geeks like you and I to hang out without attracting the attention of folks who think we are t*ats. They may be right but I reserve the right to be a t*at for my own amusement!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 27, 2018, 09:50:43 AM
For my part life is full enough without adding yet another forum group to remember to log into. This one is good for a single source of VMP news, with the outrider on Facebook, as we don't lose posts as we would on Facebook. It's publicly viewable so folk can see what we're up to; the only accidental viewers are other melodeon players and what have they got to laugh at ?  :||:  For me it would be pointless to add another.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 27, 2018, 10:15:50 AM
I think Chris has a good point. If we use this as the primary source for communication, we can all get here and therefore keep abreast of any issues arising.

I haven't had chance yet to make a start, so my first stumbling are to come.
The family have had guests all over the festive period so couldn't escape. I've also had a personal 'guest' in the form of a streaming cold so felt rubbish. Will make a start soon and post here if and when I need help.
Cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 27, 2018, 10:24:02 AM
Meanwhile I've been asked whether I want the tunes to trickle in as they are done, or sent as a whole file when your batch is finished. In order to keep track of the workflow the latter option is necessary. However, I do understand the wish for new coders to see how they're doing before they get too far along, so if anyone wants to send in, say five, tunes for a critique I can cope with that. Then I will return them to you covered in red ink so that you get it right next time  ;D. (not really). Add them back in to the final file.
I will stress that almost nobody, myself included, can make a faultless transcription, so don't get uncomfortable when errors are caught or editorial judgements are altered. It's why all the work gets checked and how we can uphold a reputation for accuracy. But before you send a file to me it helps if you have thoroughly checked yourself first.
As for speed, some folk will do three batches, some one. Work at your own speed. If your enthusiasm wanes terminally, let me know and I'll reallocate the remainder of the batch. Remember this is voluntary.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on December 27, 2018, 11:24:04 AM
...There is also a forum for abc users (http://abc-notation-users.freeforums.net/) which has really failed to take off. I think it's possible
to add a section just for VMP transcribers to save non-Facebook users from missing out...

I make a point of checking the abc-notation forum every few days. It's true (unfortunately) that traffic is low, so I can't help
thinking that a forum like melodeon.net is a 'better' place to discuss matters relating to ABC usage in the context of a specific
project (ie: VMP Buttrey MSS), if only because melodeon.net is a relatively densely populated, high-traffic region, so stuff gets
a good airing?

It's certainly the case that locking-out of non-Facebook users is to be avoided. I've given up on three groups in the past
couple of weeks (two chess, one music), because I couldn't find any contact details from the top-level Facebook page,
and they no longer have a web page (or never have) .

I was told that Facebook don't allow contact details as this forces people to sign up to their software, thus accelerating their
onward march towards world domination. Sounds almost bizarre enough to be true...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 27, 2018, 03:06:18 PM
I've just done the first twenty tunes from the block I've been given, in one sitting. They were easy because they were all from missing pages! This is how I've written them:

X:83
T:Old Iland Ladey. JBut.83 *missing*, The
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
M:4/4
L:1/8
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018
K:C

To save time I copied this block of text to Notepad:

T:Old Iland Ladey. JBut.8 *missing*, The
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
M:4/4
L:1/8
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018

I pasted that into the next tune between the X: and K: fields, edited the number and title (including removing or editing  ", The" as required) so each tune only took a couple of minutes once I was in the swing of it. When working on projects like this I generally create a 'shortcuts' text file with headers in a block ready to copy and paste into each tune. Each block of headers in the file has a different M: field with all of the common time signatures in it, I find this saves a lot of time and aids consistancy. YMMV.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 27, 2018, 03:09:26 PM
I'm sure that one of our members will be very disappointed that this one is missing:

X:95
T:Mr Quinton’s Side Beating Tune. JBut.95 *missing*
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
M:4/4
L:1/8
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018
K:C

 ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 27, 2018, 04:38:56 PM
Oh no  :'(
I just *know* it would have been a belter  :|||:
Life's not fair  :(
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on December 27, 2018, 05:03:23 PM
You are clearly the chosen one to write a replacement tune for that title. Make it a new year's resolution. And it had better be a belter, now you've promised it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 27, 2018, 05:47:27 PM
I might be deemed 'The Chosen One' but we all know what happened to him recently  ::)
Having never written a tune, I could have it as a New Year's Resolution.
I reserve the right to specify which year ........... ;D
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 12:47:19 PM
I've just completed the first actual tune in my batch (80-139) as the first 27 tunes are missing, but still needed documenting in the file. This very first tune threw up a few issues that may be of interest to the new VMP coders. In addition to the pictures from the manuscript the website lists a description of each tune and in some cases a modern transcription. So for my first one it shows:

108 The Cuckows Nest Hornpipe 2/4 G  Carroll - K.Purvis. Ignore the names as there's no transciption but perhaps they have written harmony lines in another section. The key is shown as G when it is clearly marked with two sharps, ends on a D and sounds completely wrong in G. Treat any information given with a degree of caution!

It took me a while to get my eye in on this one as there are many shadow markings on the page and the image is tilted so I kept losing which bar I was on when changing from magnified back down to normal size to navigate the page. The tune has three 8 bar sections, each has a pick-up and is repeated, the last bar of each section was full, leaving no room for the repeat pickup to be played. Chris may decide I've done the wrong thing here and change it but rather than mark the errors and make a note in the header N: field, I marked and shortened the last bars and explained why in the N: field. I also offered an alternative title for the tune because of the strange spelling. Here's a copy of the file and I've attached a pic of the tune.

Code: [Select]
X:108
T:Cuckows Nest Hornpipe. JBut.108, The
T:Cuckoo's Nest Hornpipe aka. JBut.108, The
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
N:Last bar of each section too full to accommodate
N:the pick-up when repeated so last note shortened
M:2/4
L:1/16
Q:1/4=70
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018
K:D
AG|FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|G2E2E2 AG|
FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
|:A2|f3f dfef|c2A2A2B2|=cBcB cedc|BAGF G2BA|
FEFE dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
|:FG|AFDF AFDF|AGFE D2EF|GECE GECE|GFED C2AG|
FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEG|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 29, 2018, 01:13:05 PM
Some of the anomolies Pete is describing appear in my selection, along with some others. I made alterations where they seemed appropriate and noted them in the headers.

So far as viewing the page goes, I found it easier to save the image as a jpg and put it into an editor so I could manipulate it and enhance the visibility.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 01:35:14 PM
Greg, I highlighted (selected) the entire section of the webpage I wanted, copied it to the clipboard, pasted it into Word which turned it into 12 pages, then saved as a
PDF. Transferred the PDF to my iPad which is on a desk mount to one side of my PC monitor and view it with Acrobat. Very easy to zoom in, draw lines, make comments, add bar numbers etc.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Gena Crisman on December 29, 2018, 01:35:41 PM
It took me a while to get my eye in on this one as there are many shadow markings on the page and the image is tilted so I kept losing which bar I was on when changing from magnified back down to normal size to navigate the page.

Like Greg says, have you considered throwing the source image into an image editor and correcting via skew/shear? And perhaps adjusting the colour levels? The lightest and darkest part of the image are decently far from black and white, so you can stretch the colours it uses out to fill that space without throwing anything away. Plus, having it in an editor would also let you add any quick annotations eg bar numbers that might make navigation a little easier.

A quick play with gimp's shear tool, and playing with the levels later...
(http://i.imgur.com/FvzTmxst.jpg) (https://imgur.com/FvzTmxs)
For the purpose of reading the notes off of it, I'd find this a fair bit easier to work from. Could probably even go one better and use the perspective tool to correct the bar lines pinching in on the left side, but I'd probably draw over the bar lines and repeats before worrying about that. But, your experience may vary, etc, and obviously when you're done, compare with the original.

This is a really neat project by the way, I hope it goes well!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 29, 2018, 02:00:35 PM
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm viewing the manuscript on my iPad and transcribing it using abcexplorer on my pc. Using the iPad means I can pinch in ( zoom ) into a closer view of the ms.
It's my first ever attempt at notating tunes from an old manuscript and as Pete says it's difficult trying to differentiate between ghost images of other pages and your current tune dots possibly in a photograph with tilted staves and lens-curved edges. Initially I was confused finding one tune ending then another starting on the same lines, but presumably paper was much sought after so you used all you had. I too find I tune in, but after a while need to go away and come back a-fresh.

I'm working from the original ms, and do check the titles accompanying the true image. Tune 189 has in the typed notes 'Prince Lonarians March'. I've put this down as a title and in the Z: field noted I can't quite read it as such on the ms.
Does this mean the person making those typed notes could read it better when reading the actual manuscript, or are they too guessing?
Having no expreience of this, I'll let Chris decide.
Also a couple of tunes don't seem to flow. I have transcribed to the best of my ability and checked them, as best as I can.
I am unsure of the 'proper' way to do this, inasmuch as do you leave the tune as seen, or attempt to make it playable?
If you tweak it to sound right, then surely it's not the tune in it's original state?
Again I'm trying to be accurate as to what I see and let those with real musical expertise decide.

I've pinged my first 5 tunes off to Chris to make sure I'm on roughly the right track. Fingers crossed!
All things considered, I am enjoying the task immensely!
cheers
Q



Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 29, 2018, 05:18:44 PM
...The tune has three 8 bar sections, each has a pick-up and is repeated, the last bar of each section was full, leaving no room for the repeat pickup to be played. Chris may decide I've done the wrong thing here and change it but rather than mark the errors and make a note in the header N: field, I marked and shortened the last bars and explained why in the N: field. I also offered an alternative title for the tune because of the strange spelling.

I'm doing exactly the same! John Buttrey (JB) was clearly none too good at making the final bar note lengths agree with the initial pick up bars. I make whatever changes I need (sometimes by introducing 1st and 2nd time bars if required) but always explaining what has been done, and why, in the N: fields.
Incidentally, if there is a lot of information to go in the N: field, I divide it between multiple N: field lines, in order to keep the text lines from disappearing off the RH side. Generally I try to keep a single N: text line to less than 72 characters.

Another repeat marking which I have encountered a couple of times is a 'Da Capo' (D.C.) marking at the very end of the tune. Sometimes this is written in his highly decorative script, but not always. It is also shown as a repeat mark but with four dots, not the usual two. Implicit in this instruction is to go right back to the start of the A-music and then finish the tune at the end of the A-music. Conventionally you would expect a 'FINE' marking at that point, but JB has failed to put them in, taking the FINE to be 'understood'.

Here's an example from one of my transcriptions with the D.C. and FINE coding shown in colour:

X:50
T:Swift Revaley. JBut.050, The
Z:Village Music Project 2018 Steve Dumpleton
N:Bars 10 and 18: crotchets in MS changed to dotted crotchets in transcription
N:to preserve rhythmic integrity with pick-up notes on repeats.
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
|:D|G>ABc|d>efd|g2 g2|f3 d|ee (3(efg)|
dd (3(def)|cc (3(cde)|BB (3(Bcd)|(3(ABc) AF|G3!fine!y:|
|:B/c/|dBGB|AF D(B/c/)|d>BGB|A3 (B/c/)|
d>BGB|AF D(B/c/)|d>BGB|A3!D.C.!y:|

The 'y' code (in green) is a useful bit of the ABC 2.1 standard. It enables a non-rhythmic space to be inserted in the music. In this case, it shifts the D.C. and FINE markings slightly to the left, so that the characters do not appear over the RH end bar-lines, which they otherwise would.

....have you considered throwing the source image into an image editor and correcting via skew/shear? And perhaps adjusting the colour levels? The lightest and darkest part of the image are decently far from black and white, so you can stretch the colours it uses out to fill that space without throwing anything away. Plus, having it in an editor would also let you add any quick annotations eg bar numbers that might make navigation a little easier.

A quick play with gimp's shear tool, and playing with the levels later...
...
For the purpose of reading the notes off of it, I'd find this a fair bit easier to work from. Could probably even go one better and use the perspective tool to correct the bar lines pinching in on the left side, but I'd probably draw over the bar lines and repeats before worrying about that. But, your experience may vary, etc, and obviously when you're done, compare with the original.

Yes - I can see this is possible and I could do similar in Photoshop if I really felt the need. But to be honest, for me it's not worth the bother. The facsimile MS is clear enough once you get accustomed to it. My time is better spent doing the transcriptions rather than playing around with image editing.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 29, 2018, 05:36:29 PM
All good. One to watch out for, though I don't know if Buttrey does it, is the semi-circle with a dot under it, the sign that nowadays is a fermata, or hold. It was commonly also used to signify FINE, and in those cases should be notated as !fine! and needs no comment.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 29, 2018, 05:37:15 PM
...Also a couple of tunes don't seem to flow. I have transcribed to the best of my ability and checked them, as best as I can.
I am unsure of the 'proper' way to do this, inasmuch as do you leave the tune as seen, or attempt to make it playable?
If you tweak it to sound right, then surely it's not the tune in it's original state?
Again I'm trying to be accurate as to what I see and let those with real musical expertise decide.

There is definitely a balance to be struck with being accurate and honouring the MS, and sometimes needing to do some 'tweaking' to make the tune sound right. The latter is imprtant too, and just as a good language translator needs to make the translation idiomatically sensible, so the music transcriber needs to sometimes exercise some careful judgement to determine what was intended, rather than slavishly adhering only to what is written on the page. So long as the transcriber records what has been done (i.e. in ABC by using the N: fields to document any departures from the original) then that is rightfully OK. After all, we and the wider world already have the exact copy of the original MS, warts and all, so there is no point in perpetuating any errors when it is clear that those errors exist and we are able to correct them.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 29, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
All good. One to watch out for, though I don't know if Buttrey does it, is the semi-circle with a dot under it, the sign that nowadays is a fermata, or hold. It was commonly also used to signify FINE, and in those cases should be notated as !fine! and needs no comment.
Thanks Chris!
Yes - I have come across the fermata in the MS, just once so far. But in the example I've found, I think it really means a held note, not a FINE marking. So for now, I've coded it as !fermata! rather than !fine!. Easily changed though...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on December 29, 2018, 05:47:15 PM
Thanks Steve. My musical knowledge is being tested here if not straightforward in ms, but that's not necessarily bad!
You've gotta learn.....
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 06:18:21 PM
Yes - I have come across the fermata in the MS, just once so far. But in the example I've found, I think it really means a held note, not a FINE marking. So for now, I've coded it as !fermata! rather than !fine!. Easily changed though...

From an old ABC standard, still working now and always will - H (for hold) will get you a fermata, T gets you a trill and L an accent mark.

I've seen lots of repeat marks with four dots instead of two over the years, and have assumed them to simply be an old fashioned way of writing them. I haven't come across one in this manuscript but another common  mark to watch out for is a reversed quaver rest, like a 7 backwards, that denotes a crotchet rest!  :o

Edited to add: I've come across a lot of musicians who refer to the fermata as an 'eyebrow'  :|glug
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 06:56:53 PM
Watch out for this one. I've found two tunes in the first few where the website description of the tune describes them as 2/2 and 4/4 respectively on the manuscript they have cut time C| and common time C marks. C| and C are still in common usage and I see no reason to 'correct' anything that is perfectly legitimate in the first place. It's a rough old world out there kiddies, stay safe!  >:E
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 29, 2018, 08:22:23 PM
Repeat marks with extra dots usually mean an extra repeat for each set of dots, don't they?.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on December 29, 2018, 10:17:08 PM
Not in any music I've seen. My money's on 4 dots = old fashioned, 2 dots = modern.

Edited to add: Wikipedia says 4 dots are used in shape note singing.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 29, 2018, 10:36:02 PM
Can't remember where I saw that. Somewhere on line in some source of music information, I think. Came from a source other than me, though (I think  (:) ). Maybe I dreamed it. I think I also dreamed that it worked with the old (single floppy disc) version of  Sibelious I started out with.

[Edit: I would suggest that this idea is probably not worth pursuing.]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 10:52:16 PM
Sibelious.

Oh b*gger, do I really have to be the one to ask if Sibelius really had a floppy disk?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 10:59:14 PM
Wikipedia says 4 dots are used in shape note singing.

Shape note singing. That would be Melodeons R'n't Us then would it?  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 29, 2018, 11:09:46 PM
Sibelious.

Oh b*gger, do I really have to be the one to ask if Sibelius really had a floppy disk?

Taking one for the team. Proud of you.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 29, 2018, 11:18:25 PM
Noted.  ;)

All the best for the New Year mate!  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 01:26:57 AM
From an old ABC standard, still working now and always will - H (for hold) will get you a fermata, T gets you a trill and L an accent mark.
Yes - you are right about the shortcuts H, T and L, which work, but the 2.1 standard does specify the spelled out versions !fermata!, !trill!, !>! or !accent!. Yes, they are longer to type out, but their meaning is immediately obvious to someone viewing the ABC code who might not otherwise be familiar with some of the shortcuts. (I had to look up the shortcut H for instance).

Quote
I've seen lots of repeat marks with four dots instead of two over the years, and have assumed them to simply be an old fashioned way of writing them. I haven't come across one in this manuscript...
John Buttrey seems to use the two dots conventionally for a normal repeat but four dots where there is a Da Capo repeat.
Have a look at tune No.50 'The Swift Revaley' for an example; also note the almost illegible 'Da Capo' scrawl at the end of the tune. 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 01:28:38 AM
Watch out for this one. I've found two tunes in the first few where the website description of the tune describes them as 2/2 and 4/4 respectively on the manuscript they have cut time C| and common time C marks. C| and C are still in common usage and I see no reason to 'correct' anything that is perfectly legitimate in the first place.
Yes - agreed!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on December 30, 2018, 07:12:23 AM
From the point of view of a 'new' transcriber, who also has an 'incomplete' knowledge of musical theory,
it's reassuring to see that other folks are experiencing the same sort of 'problemette' as I am.

Specifically:

I'm amazed at how similar a 200-year old copperplate '3' is to a 200-year old copperplate '5'! I've already
noted one instance where the index entry on the web-page specifies the time signature as 5/4 when (I'm
almost certain) it is actually 3/4.

'My' section (1-43) includes several tunes where the Buttrey team have already transcribed the tune and
included a JPEG image of the score on the web site. I am using these as the initial basis for my own
transcriptions, but once I have an initial draft, I will go back and carefully compare the Buttrey transcription
with the page image, and make any 'necessary' changes.

Thanks to those who've posted samples of their transcriptions so far. This has enabled me to modify my
style so as to conform more closely to the VMP 'norm' without having to bother the project co-ordinator.
I note that there are differences in individual coding styles. It is a relief to me to know that there is some
flexibility here - for instance, I have so far been unable to produce a completely space-free transcription,
but I note a few spaces in some of the examples.

I've decided after a little experimentation, that the best approach for me is to take a hike into the Watson
Music Library at the Manchester Central Library, where they have up to date large-screen machines which
allow me to display a magnified page image alongside the user interface for my ABC processor (I'm using
EasyABC, which I think may put me in a minority of VMP transcribers - I hope that won't turn out to
cause problems).

I've noted the 'print-through' from t'other side of a page, and the 'distortion' caused by the slightly
angled camera position in the case of some pages. I hadn't thought of using GIMP to 'correct' these anomolies,
and as I'm not finding these effects to be insurmountable, I probably won't bother (I just used GIMP to
clean up and design several sets of Japanese chess pieces, so I'm suffering a little from 'GIMP-fatigue').

I did notice a couple of pages where the edge of the image seems to have been 'clipped' very slightly.
I haven't looked in detail yet, but I hope that no notes have been lost...

One question - several of 'my' tunes have what appears to be a 'third section', consisting simply of a series
of parallel, decreasing vertical lines followed by (what I think is) a glissando. I do not know how to notate
this, so I haven't bothered (I don't think it is possible to notate a glissando in EasyABC). Can anyone tell me
what this is all about? Thank you.

Thanks for the posts - they've given a new transcriber some significant encouragement.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 07:27:53 AM
... It is a relief to me to know that there is some
flexibility here - for instance, I have so far been unable to produce a completely space-free transcription,
but I note a few spaces in some of the examples.
I do (perhaps naughtily) include the odd space, mainly between repeated crotchets, where I like to use the space to separate the beats. It improves legibility IMHO.

Quote
I'm using EasyABC, which I think may put me in a minority of VMP transcribers - I hope that won't turn out to
cause problems.
I'm using EasyABC (for Mac) too. I don't see that it should cause any problems. Carry on!

Quote
One question - several of 'my' tunes have what appears to be a 'third section', consisting simply of a series
of parallel, decreasing vertical lines followed by (what I think is) a glissando. I do not know how to notate
this, so I haven't bothered (I don't think it is possible to notate a glissando in EasyABC). Can anyone tell me
what this is all about?
It's a bit of penmanship to fill in the empty space on the stave at the end of a tune. It's just a calligraphic flourish which has no musical significance, so you can safely ignore it!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 30, 2018, 12:54:55 PM
Spaces are necessary for proper grouping of notes, that has never been an issue. Redundant spaces, those don't do anything other than create white space around barlines etc, are what should be avoided. If you find it easier to proofread your work with lots of white space around then write your files that way, just use a global tool to strip out the redundant stuff before sending it to Chris. Explorer has a cleaning tool that does that, not sure about Easy ABC.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 03:49:44 PM
From the point of view of a 'new' transcriber, who also has an 'incomplete' knowledge of musical theory,
it's reassuring to see that other folks are experiencing the same sort of 'problemette' as I am.

Specifically:

I'm amazed at how similar a 200-year old copperplate '3' is to a 200-year old copperplate '5'! I've already
noted one instance where the index entry on the web-page specifies the time signature as 5/4 when (I'm
almost certain) it is actually 3/4.

Two ways of making your mind up come to mind,

1. Count the number of crotchets per bar (aka quarter notes. Large solid dots with plain stems). If it's four the time signature will be 4/4 or C (they mean the same thing, Common Time). If it's two you've probably got  2/4, or cut time (a C with a line through it), again they mean the same thing. 2/4  seems common with a lot of the quicksteps. If it's three, you've either got 3/4 or 6/8. If it looks like a jig it'll be 6/8 (the rest of the quicksteps are 6/8, and look a lot like, and often are, jigs). If it has a waltz feel, it's 3/4.

2. The easy way. Look beneath the image at the list of tunes on that page. It will tell you the title, the time signature, the key signature and any other info that the creator of the images thought of including. Pete noted that, in his portion, some  of the common time and cut time key signatures have been given in number form as 4/4 or 2/4 but that is easy to spot and doesn't really affect the accuracy of the transcription anyway. It's nice to stick with the original, though, whichever that is.

If you have a problem with what appear to be errors in the scores, correct them and record what the original was and your changes as N: notes, as succinctly as possible.

It's worth sending the first handful you do to Chris. I did this and he was very quick to get back to me with his comments and to point out the error I had made  ;D.


Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 04:09:26 PM
Spaces are necessary for proper grouping of notes, that has never been an issue. Redundant spaces, those don't do anything other than create white space around barlines etc, are what should be avoided.

Hmm. When I create ABC I prefer to make break groups of notes up according to way they appear on the score. Depending on the note lengths, this is not always necessary and, yes, it does result in redundant spaces in the code, but I find it makes it easier for me to read quickly and I think it must do this for users that come after. The extra file size and consequent extra memory use is negligible and it does not have any ill effect on the integrity of the code. I sent my files to Chris like this for checking and he did not criticise me for it.

e.g., |Dd d2:| = |Ddd2| but I prefer |Dd d2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 04:30:12 PM
I'm amazed at how similar a 200-year old copperplate '3' is to a 200-year old copperplate '5'! I've already
noted one instance where the index entry on the web-page specifies the time signature as 5/4 when (I'm
almost certain) it is actually 3/4.

I cannot think of a single instance where late 18th - early 19th century music of this genre would ever have a 5/4 time signature!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 04:32:52 PM
e.g., |Dd d2:| = |Ddd2| but I prefer |Dd d2:|
Your preference is my preference too, and the spaces as shown are of value because they separate the beats and make it easier to read in a musically sensible way. I think any enforced subsequent removal of those types of spaces would be over-fussy and pedantic.

What is undesireable in my opinion is ABC code with spaces inserted willy-nilly simply to ensure that the barlines line up beneath each other in successive lines of code. As far as I'm aware, no-one is actually doing this in this particular project, but a few years ago there was a former member of this forum who insisted on doing it for his own transcriptions, and growled loudly if anyone else tried to edit his code to remove the spaces.

The only time that even more additional spaces are worth entering is when dealing with multiple voice input. It just makes the music layout clearer and easier to enter countermelodies and contrapuntal harmonies (see here (http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#multiple_voices)) but for the Buttrey project it is not required. (thank goodness :Ph)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 05:04:57 PM
Absolutely, Steve. Agree with all that.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 05:10:07 PM

I cannot think of a single instance where late 18th - early 19th century music of this genre would ever have a 5/4 time signature!

But, I did have one image where it was hard to tell if it was 2/4 or 4/4 just by looking at the key signature.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 30, 2018, 05:26:16 PM
e.g., |Dd d2:| = |Ddd2| but I prefer |Dd d2:|
Your preference is my preference too, and the spaces as shown are of value because they separate the beats and make it easier to read in a musically sensible way. I think any enforced subsequent removal of those types of spaces would be over-fussy and pedantic.

What is undesireable in my opinion is ABC code with spaces inserted willy-nilly simply to ensure that the barlines line up beneath each other in successive lines of code. As far as I'm aware, no-one is actually doing this in this particular project, but a few years ago there was a former member of this forum who insisted on doing it for his own transcriptions, and growled loudly if anyone else tried to edit his code to remove the spaces.

The only time that even more additional spaces are worth entering is when dealing with multiple voice input. It just makes the music layout clearer and easier to enter countermelodies and contrapuntal harmonies (see here (http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#multiple_voices)) but for the Buttrey project it is not required. (thank goodness :Ph)
Yes to all that. A single space to break up the bar into beats helps navigation; no to multiple spaces where a single will do. I'm not upset by space round barlines either, it's just that I don't do it because personally I'm used to scanning it without. And I have to scan them a lot.
I'm preparing a revision of the hint page to take account of all that's been commented on  so far. There are so many newbies for this project that it's hard to keep track of what I've said to who.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 30, 2018, 05:27:18 PM
1. Count the number of crotchets per bar (aka quarter notes. Large solid dots with plain stems). If it's four the time signature will be 4/4 or C (they mean the same thing, Common Time). If it's two you've probably got  2/4, or cut time (a C with a line through it), again they mean the same thing. 2/4  seems common with a lot of the quicksteps.

I think you're a bit mixed up here Greg, 2/4 is not cut time or C|. 2/2 is cut time.

Hmm. When I create ABC I prefer to make break groups of notes up according to way they appear on the score. Depending on the note lengths, this is not always necessary and, yes, it does result in redundant spaces in the code, but I find it makes it easier for me to read quickly and I think it must do this for users that come after. The extra file size and consequent extra memory use is negligible and it does not have any ill effect on the integrity of the code. I sent my files to Chris like this for checking and he did not criticise me for it.

e.g., |Dd d2:| = |Ddd2| but I prefer |Dd d2:|

I agree, that's exactly what I said. Spaces added to group notes properly are not redundant.  ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 05:49:16 PM
I think you're a bit mixed up here Greg, 2/4 is not cut time or C|. 2/2 is cut time.

Whoops, you are right.

Quote
Hmm. When I create ABC I prefer to make break groups of notes up according to way they appear on the score. Depending on the note lengths, this is not always necessary and, yes, it does result in redundant spaces in the code, but I find it makes it easier for me to read quickly and I think it must do this for users that come after. The extra file size and consequent extra memory use is negligible and it does not have any ill effect on the integrity of the code. I sent my files to Chris like this for checking and he did not criticise me for it.

e.g., |Dd d2:| = |Ddd2| but I prefer |Dd d2:|
[/quote]
Quote
I agree, that's exactly what I said. Spaces added to group notes properly are not redundant.  ;)

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant  only leave spaces where they were needed to make the score display correctly.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 06:03:34 PM
I've just realised that I don't really understand the practical differences between cut time and common time. I thought that cut time just suggested a quicker tempo, but apparently that isn't necessarily so.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on December 30, 2018, 06:27:52 PM
The important thing in cut time is that it is two beats to the bar not four.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 06:51:36 PM
I've just realised that I don't really understand the practical differences between cut time and common time. I thought that cut time just suggested a quicker tempo, but apparently that isn't necessarily so.
Common time = 4/4 which means four crotchet beats to a bar.
Cut time = 2/2 which means two minim beats to a bar.

Mathematically, 4/4 is the same as 2/2, but the big difference is in how you 'feel' the music, and that is what the two time signatures are trying to indicate.

In 4/4, the tune usually has a good, obvious 4 beats to a bar, so (being topical) think of 'O Come All Ye Faithful' or 'While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks'* for example.

In 2/2, the tune has a pulse of 2 beats in a bar. Many reels or 'straight' hornpipes have a pulse of 2 beats in a bar - think of 'Soldier's Joy' or 'Speed the Plough'. If you feel it in two beats/pulses to a bar, the tune flows nicely, whereas trying to feel a (rapid) 4 beats in a bar just makes the tune stodgy. I've seen both those tunes written in 4/4 and 2/2, but it's the latter which creates the pulse of 2 and so I would always advocate notating them in 2/2 not 4/4.

*Winchester Old - the tune which most people know for this carol.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on December 30, 2018, 08:19:20 PM
Hints page updated. http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/A%20Number%20of%20Supporting%20Items/VMP%20Transcriber%20Hints.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on December 30, 2018, 09:19:59 PM

In 4/4, the tune usually has a good, obvious 4 beats to a bar, so (being topical) think of 'O Come All Ye Faithful' or 'While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks'* for example.

In 2/2, the tune has a pulse of 2 beats in a bar. Many reels or 'straight' hornpipes have a pulse of 2 beats in a bar - think of 'Soldier's Joy' or 'Speed the Plough'. If you feel it in two beats/pulses to a bar, the tune flows nicely, whereas trying to feel a (rapid) 4 beats in a bar just makes the tune stodgy. I've seen both those tunes written in 4/4 and 2/2, but it's the latter which creates the pulse of 2 and so I would always advocate notating them in 2/2 not 4/4.


Can you point me at a good recorded example of each, by any chance, Steve?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on December 30, 2018, 11:02:04 PM
Can you point me at a good recorded example of each, by any chance, Steve?
Ooh! I'm sure there must be lots of recordings out there. One of my favourites is Anahata and Mary Humphreys playing  the William Clarke's version of Speed the Plough. It definitely has a basic pulse of two in a bar (even though the original MS is shown as 4/4 ;))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn4wwxkKexY
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on December 31, 2018, 05:51:58 AM
Too many helpful and insightful responses to quote individually, but yes, I'm doing what 'the body
of the kirk' seems to be suggesting. Basically:

Using spaces to enable me to easily read my stuff (and for 'the proper grouping of notes').
Then deleting unecessary spaces (I hadn't picked up that necessary spaces were allowed - thank you).
Using the index listings as a 'crib' (as I say, I think I picked up one instance where the index entry
       was erroneous - a 5/4 where a 3/4 was intended.(*) I picked up the error by 'note counting' as
       suggested).

(*) I did actually get a bit of paper and draw out a poor effort at a copperplate 3 and 5 - with the vertical
stroke of the 5 and the diagonal stroke of the 3 being thinner than the rest of the numeral, it was easy
to create a 5 which could be mistaken for a 3 'in a poor light'...

Ta!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 01, 2019, 07:31:40 AM
One question - several of 'my' tunes have what appears to be a 'third section', consisting simply of a series
of parallel, decreasing vertical lines followed by (what I think is) a glissando. I do not know how to notate
this, so I haven't bothered (I don't think it is possible to notate a glissando in EasyABC). Can anyone tell me
what this is all about?
It's a bit of penmanship to fill in the empty space on the stave at the end of a tune. It's just a calligraphic flourish which has no musical significance, so you can safely ignore it!

Absolutement, mon general! I now see that this is a 'standard practice' - thank you. I'm just looking
at page scans of an edition of Playford (https://archive.org/details/dancingmasterord00play/page/n3 (https://archive.org/details/dancingmasterord00play/page/n3)),
and lo and behold, this construct is used on almost every page...

FWIW, I arrived at the above URL via the National Library of Scotland Music Collection web page
(https://archive.org/details/nlsmusic (https://archive.org/details/nlsmusic)), where I have been (intermittently) looking at Kohler's
Violin Repository. Not relevant to this particular thread/project, but there seems to be a lot of music
there. NLS seems to have scanned its music holdings and archived the scans to t'Internet Archive
site, I can't find these scans on the actual NLS web site...

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 01, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
The whole of Kohler's was transcribed to abc some time ago by John Chambers, he of JC's Tune Finder fame.
Kohler's (http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/book/Kohlers/)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 01, 2019, 12:50:58 PM
The whole of Kohler's was transcribed to abc some time ago by John Chambers, he of JC's Tune Finder fame.
Kohler's (http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/book/Kohlers/)
Ah! Thank you. I'd serendipitiously found one or two of the Kohler tunes, but not the whole shootin' match!
Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 01, 2019, 01:43:42 PM
You will find a link to that Playford, and much else, on this page I made for Folkopedia. http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/List_of_historical_tunebooks,_some_of_which_are_available_on_the_internet (http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/List_of_historical_tunebooks,_some_of_which_are_available_on_the_internet)
I add things to it as I come across them, so let me know if you find anything.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 02, 2019, 09:25:19 AM
I've just been asked by Sandy Cameron (the owner of the Buttrey mss.) to let you all know she's going to retake some of the photos to make them clearer...

Quote
I am going to be retaking some of the photos as the photos are blurry or distorted. I am going away but will get these done as soon as I can.

Note that some pages are very faint and a bit blurry so I can't fix them. Whoever does the later tunes is going to have a much easier time of it than the earlier ones.

Redoing Nos:

65 to 69
134a to 139
140 to 143
365 to 369
607 to 611
617 to 621
631 to 634
861
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 02, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Thank you Anahata for taking the initiative on this and communicating with Sandy.
It's really nice to think Sandy is being involved in helping us notate the ms.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 02, 2019, 12:34:52 PM
I've just been asked by Sandy Cameron (the owner of the Buttrey mss.) to let you all know she's going to retake some of the photos to make them clearer...
Quote
I am going to be retaking some of the photos as the photos are blurry or distorted. I am going away but will get these done as soon as I can.
Note that some pages are very faint and a bit blurry so I can't fix them.

Would it be possible to request that instead of taking photos, that Sandy instead uses a scanner to capture the images? It would obviate the perspective distortion and any unwanted background. It doesn't have to be a sophisticated scanner. These days, most domestic inkjet printers also have a scanner option built in.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 02, 2019, 01:09:49 PM
On the other hand, if the spine of the book is delicate, flattening on a scanner can cause much damage. I would strongly suggest that we be satisfied with legibility rather than perfection.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 02, 2019, 04:28:43 PM
On the other hand, if the spine of the book is delicate, flattening on a scanner can cause much damage. I would strongly suggest that we be satisfied with legibility rather than perfection.
Good point about the delicate spine, Chris. Agree about not causing any damage.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Helena Handcart on January 02, 2019, 05:37:20 PM
On the other hand, if the spine of the book is delicate, flattening on a scanner can cause much damage. I would strongly suggest that we be satisfied with legibility rather than perfection.
Good point about the delicate spine, Chris. Agree about not causing any damage.

Just a thought - you can get some good scanning apps for mobile phones which can be used to turn photos to pdf files. Some of them are free or have a limited amount of free file conversions. I've used them to good effect where a flatbed scanner was not an option. Could be of use here?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 02, 2019, 10:49:08 PM
There has been a change of plan, which means Sandra has got her husband to do the new pictures and they are on line already. If you are transcribing any of these it should be easier with the new images. I'll post most of her message, with the links, as it's for all of us:

Quote
I hope you know about my Facebook page. I created it solely to draw people to the Buttrey Fife Music website, as a lot of people look at Fb and it's easy to share. If you or any of your melodeon friends are FB people, please, please "Like" my FB page. This helps promote the page on the internet (as you well know, fellow webmaster). And please "Share" it with anyone you think might be interested in the Buttrey Manuscript.

https://www.facebook.com/buttreyfifemusic

I have just now posted on FB and the Buttrey blog, a list of which pages I have replaced. The manuscript is supposed to be turned over to Fort York (c/o City of Toronto) to be kept in a climate controlled environment, at the end of January, so if the melodeon people could look at their respective pages and let me know of any pages they would like retaken, that would be really helpful. As stated in the blog, some pages are really faded and can't be improved.

www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

I am so grateful that you folks are making the ABC files. It has been a huge project creating the website then cropping and uploading all the photos and I have always been concerned that the site would get hacked or crash one day and all the work would be gone. There are really keen musicians who have encouraged me through this process as they wanted ALL the music, but that really was just a few musicians, and with what you are doing, people down the road will be able to obtain this music.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 03, 2019, 12:29:16 AM
Does Sandra know the significance of  Carroll-K. Purvis, I wonder. This name keeps cropping up in comment credits.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on January 03, 2019, 07:15:04 AM
I just wanted to say how amazed, excited and happy that Qs enquiry to me about one tune, and my quick bit of online research linking us to the Buttrey ms in Canada has led to this project - loads of people seem to be putting in all the hard work !
I'm looking forward to exploring the ms in more detail and of course trying out some of the tunes (could be a future ongoing tune recording theme perhaps ?)
It also makes me wonder about other similar ms which are not widely known about (other military archives maybe ?)

And Happy New Year to all !

J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 03, 2019, 08:40:45 AM
Julian: yes it seems to have been a wonderful coming together of events and I feel so lucky that we've got this project out of it all.

Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.

Greg: yes I keep wondering the significance of the name...
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 03, 2019, 09:11:03 AM
Ah! I have taken a proper look at the Facebook page.
A lot of questions answered there, especially about work already done and in hand. I now know who Mr. Ian Bell and Mr. Ken Purvis are.

https://www.facebook.com/buttreyfifemusic

Here's a video by Mr. Bell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hl_QMb_XhY&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 03, 2019, 09:13:14 AM
Thanks for heads-up.
Will get there soon
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 03, 2019, 09:18:28 AM
Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 03, 2019, 09:21:22 AM
Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 03, 2019, 09:26:18 AM
Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal

Thanks Greg, but I am not a FB user and unlikely to be in the foreseable future. I don't even have a moblie phone.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 03, 2019, 10:42:24 AM
I'm not on Fb either, however the main Buttrey page is available to read for anyone. They seem quite excited about the attention it's getting here.

It also makes me wonder about other similar ms which are not widely known about (other military archives maybe ?)

And Happy New Year to all !
Some friends of ours say they have just acquired a manuscript book of tunes from Lincolnshire. Could become another VMP project. We''ll follow it up...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 03, 2019, 10:45:24 AM

It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal

Thanks Greg, but I am not a FB user and unlikely to be in the foreseable future. I don't even have a moblie phone.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I don't have a smart phone either (but you don't need one).
anyone else, though, there are already a bunch of people doing stuff.


Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 03, 2019, 11:41:23 AM
I'm not on Fb either, however the main Buttrey page is available to read for anyone. They seem quite excited about the attention it's getting here.

It also makes me wonder about other similar ms which are not widely known about (other military archives maybe ?)

And Happy New Year to all !
Some friends of ours say they have just acquired a manuscript book of tunes from Lincolnshire. Could become another VMP project. We''ll follow it up...

PM sent.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 03, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
Please note that the first three tunes I found that have previously been transcribed had errors in the modern transcription. I'll now use them as a (very) rough guide, but trust nothing, as some 'errors' appear to be an attempt to correct mistakes that aren't there or shoe-horn pickup notes into the ends of bars.  >:(
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 03, 2019, 06:57:12 PM
Thanks for this comment Pete.
I have been wary of the modern transcriptions and the typed titles as I'm unsure of their origins or accuracy.
Some of my tunes have the title typed below the manuscript. Im not too sure how they arrived at some words, could it be they have seen the original MS and it's clearer 'in the flesh'? Perhaps they are guessing?
I'm trying to notate based on what I see in the MS and take it from there.
Cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 03, 2019, 08:05:54 PM
Look at the Butterey FB page to know more about the existing transcriptions.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 04, 2019, 06:09:31 AM
Please note that the first three tunes I found that have previously been transcribed had errors in the modern
transcription. I'll now use them as a (very) rough guide, but trust nothing, as some 'errors' appear to be an
attempt to correct mistakes that aren't there or shoe-horn pickup notes into the ends of bars.  >:(

I too have noticed 'errors' in the modern transcriptions and in the index. These seem to be largely to do with time
signatures - one mis-read (by me), for example; and one presented in the index as 'X' when in the manuscript it is
clearly 'Y'. Some 'errors' are not so clear (to me, at least). It's probable that there are two sources of 'errors'? 1) in
the modern transcriptions/index; 2) in the MS itself - genuine 'errors', and bits which are difficult to read?

I'll be concentrating on producing a first draft of all 'my' tunes, which will as faithfully as possible reproduce what I
am seeing in the MS - including bars with 'wrong' note counts(*), dodgy pick-ups between parts, etc. Only then will
I be going back to attempt to 'correct' the errors. This may involve 'correcting' time signatures (I think I saw a 2/4
in the MS, for what is 'obviously' a 3/4 tune), and also seems to involve some detective work (I've looked at 7 other
transcriptions of one tune already)...

I hope this is a 'sensible' way to approach matters - as a first-time transcriber, I'm a little unsure of the best strategy.

Whatever, it sems a slow process - so far I've done a basic transcription of 31 (out of 43) tunes. Is this slow, fast,
acceptable?

Roger
(*) I think I've seen one example of a wrong note-count being due to the fact that the 'extra' note is in fact a grace-note?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 04, 2019, 07:15:10 AM
Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

Please note that as a result of the re-photographing of some of the tunes and re-uploading them, there is now an omission:
The page showing tune Nos. 64 and 65 (also with the 2nd part of tune No.63) is now MISSING from the website.
Previously it was there and fortunately I made a copy of it before it went missing. See attached!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 04, 2019, 10:38:22 AM
Don't feel the need to absolutely resolve all inconsistencies, just do what you are able; I will make a final judgement anyway when I check them. The less I have to do the better of course. And as others have said, we are working from the originals not the modern transcriptions, which we should largely ignore.
Also don't worry about speed, it's taken 20 years to get 12,000 tunes into VMP. As long as you do a few tunes at a time it'll be OK. Though I know half of you will be much faster, regard half-term as an easily attainable target for a batch.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 04, 2019, 10:42:28 AM
Whatever, it sems a slow process - so far I've done a basic transcription of 31 (out of 43) tunes. Is this slow, fast,
acceptable?

Roger
(*) I think I've seen one example of a wrong note-count being due to the fact that the 'extra' note is in fact a grace-note?

31 out of 43 tunes done already sounds like a cracking pace, for goodness sake don't feel pressured about speed, it's been sitting there since 1800 so another few weeks or months won't matter. Good idea to check transcriptions from other early manuscripts, make that VMP transcriptions where possible  ;) .

I too have picked up on the fact that there are overfull bars where it's possible that some of the notes might be grace notes badly written. The worst of these somehow always manage to to be in the extreme right hand margin of a left hand page where the paralax distortion is at its worst and the notes are crammed together get them onto the end of the stave. I tend to mark these and let Chris give them the once over if I can't think of anything sensible to suggest. This isn't because I'm too lazy to put the work into research but I have limited knowledge of the tunes and the idiosyncrasies of 17th, 18th and 19th century notation, Chris is a far better sleuth than I and he has a vast knowledge of tunes and collections.  ;D

It sounds like you are doing fine Roger, fret not!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 04, 2019, 11:54:49 AM
Thanks for the reassurance Chris, I appreciate being able to leave inconsistencies to those that are experienced here.
The last tune I notated seemed to have random note values. The last two notes of a bar having values of 3, then 1 which adds up correctly within the bar. More often than not the MS is giving the values randomly as 2 then 1 which doesn't add up in the bar.
Have altered them to 3 & 1 and 'NB'd" it in the transcription.

It seems a very cavalier attitude to the music in the 1800's, or perhaps some of these were tunes deemed '95% sorted' and tweaked finally by the composer when started to be incorporated in his repertoire?
Interesting stuff looking at these old originals......
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 04, 2019, 04:50:44 PM
1) 31 out of 43 tunes done already sounds like a cracking pace, for goodness sake don't feel pressured about speed...

2) I too have picked up on the fact that there are overfull bars where it's possible that some of the notes might be grace
notes badly written....

3) It sounds like you are doing fine Roger, fret not!

1) Remember, I had a head start, as I had already transcribed about 6 tunes for personal use before all this
kicked-off in earnest. I was blown-away by the speed with which this project was actually got up and running,
so I thought 'Crikey, these guys don't hang about - better get a wiggle on.' Nice to know I can ease off a bit.

2) I think I'm going to make a set of my own transcriber's notes, listing the 'common faults', and what to do
about them. I'm enjoying this so much that I don't intend it to be the last time I do this...

3) Thank you kind sir...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 04, 2019, 05:34:13 PM
I'm enjoying this so much that I don't intend it to be the last time I do this...

Ah, CMTS*, worse than MAD. You need to keep an eye on that mate, can turn nasty.  :o



*CTMS = Compulsive Music Transcription Syndrome

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 04, 2019, 05:44:43 PM
I can understand CMTS!
I find I get into the zone and want to get to the end of the tube to find out what it sounds like.
I also recognise after a while I start to feel tired and make mistakes so then it's time to stop.
It is an enjoyable addiction!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 04, 2019, 07:41:18 PM
It seems a very cavalier attitude to the music in the 1800's, or perhaps some of these were tunes deemed '95% sorted' and tweaked finally by the composer when started to be incorporated in his repertoire?
Interesting stuff looking at these old originals......

Indeed interesting! I always love looking at the old manuscripts. A couple of points worth remembering:

1. Often the compilers of the manuscripts were not completely fluent in music theory and 'grammar', so there will often be minor errors. For example, common errors are incorrect note lengths at the ends of the lines, and hence not agreeing rhythmically with pick-up notes. It doesn't matter too much, either then or now, as the musical meaning is nearly always obvious, and in any case the compilers were not trying to pass Grade 8 Theory of Music with 100% marks.

2. Related to the above, the old manuscripts were often perhaps intended to be nothing more than as a personal 'aide memoire' for the compiler/musician concerned, so that they could quickly look up a tune as required and then go on to play it anyway, perhaps from memory.

In my own allocation of Buttrey transcriptions, I have adopted the approach of correcting any obvious errors, (e.g. the end of line note lengths mentioned above) but always documenting what I've done using the N: field. However, some of the MS tunes are ambiguous in their notation/meaning or otherwise obscure. In these cases I simply transcribe exactly what is written in the MS, 'warts and all' and add a note to that effect in the N: field.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 04, 2019, 07:57:12 PM
Yes I suppose we are all so used to iPads, PCs smart phones all with ABC apps, recorded music and the Internet, we forget what it was like for old musicians when a bit of paper and a pen was the ultimate and only high tech!
Yes Chris has tipped me off about using the N: filed and making notes.
Im used to noting what I see rather than what I think I should see, so am perfectly happy to notate the ms as accurately as possible and let others decide what is appropriate.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 04, 2019, 10:43:06 PM

2. Related to the above, the old manuscripts were often perhaps intended to be nothing more than as a personal 'aide memoire' for the compiler/musician concerned, so that they could quickly look up a tune as required and then go on to play it anyway, perhaps from memory.


I think, in the case of a lot of the manuscripts that come down from the old dance masters that is definitely the case. They picked up new tunes as they came across them and recorded them as  "aide memoire". The journey they went on is clear from the development of their repertoire.  I wonder if, in the case of collections like the Butterey, bearing in mind the the military origin and the necessity of a military musician having  access to what the band plays, and looking at the level of neatness and consistency of penmanship, I wonder if this is more a case of the apprentice musician doing a copying exercise from his comtemporary's personal manuscript's, or something like that.

I think there is a strong chance this was used as a tool for learning.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 05, 2019, 05:13:58 AM
...It seems a very cavalier attitude to the music in the 1800's...
...Interesting stuff looking at these old originals......
Apropos nothing at all, I seem to remember reading, many years ago, that the rate of musical literacy
in the 17th - 19th centuries, amongst all classes, was much higher than it is now. I think I read this in
the context of Pepys' Diaries. So, I guess that if there were lots of folks around who could actually read
and write music, there were varying levels of skill, and consequently a lot of scope for 'mistakes' in
hand-written MSS?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 05, 2019, 07:33:44 AM
Reminiscence alert!

The last few responses are especially interesting from a personal point of view. When I was a student in the late 1960s and early 1970s I had a couple of holiday jobs working as a music copyist for a London-based composer who wrote light band and orchestral stuff for the BBC. I was provided with a copy of the full scores - i.e. multiple staves for all the instruments - and my job was to extract and copy out the individual instrument parts which would be given to each player to perform from.

I had to use a special music-writing fountain pen: it had three 'prongs' on the nib instead of the usual two, and by pressing slightly harder you could form the blob of a note head. Using the nib at different angles resulted in thin and thick strokes to make the note stems and beams of connected quavers/semiquavers, etc. The ink was black draughting indian ink (very opaque) and I had to write the music on translucent plastic (mylar) foil which was pre-printed with blank stave lines. This was so that the parts could eventually be printed on to paper using the diazo process which used coated paper sensitive to UV light and developed with ammonia. Any mistakes on the mylar had to be corrected using a scalpel blade to scratch off the incorrect notes and then re-written.

The work also entailed transposing the parts into the correct keys (e.g. writing the notes up a tone for clarinets/trumpets, etc), rationalising multiple bars rest into a single numbered bar rests, spacing out the music so it was easily legible (not too squashed, not too extended) and ensuring that page turns occurred in places where there was a rest for the player to actually turn the page. It was good work, although it didn't pay very well, 5 shillings per page as I recall. But it kept me in clarinet and saxophone reeds and I sometimes got to play in a band where the pieces I'd written out were actually performed, and I found I had actually absorbed all the music in my head in the copying process!

These days of course, we have music typesetting software such as Sibelius and MuseScore so the job of the humble music copyist has largely disappeared.
 

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 05, 2019, 10:27:25 AM
Fascinating Steve. It's obviously stood you in good stead and reinforced your musical knowledge for your later love of the box.
I'm not a Luddite and appreciate all our new gubbins that make our lives easier - ipads, ABC apps, pc's, slow downers etc - but there is still value in such things to provide a basic level of knowledge.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 05, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
Reminiscence alert!

The last few responses are especially interesting from a personal point of view. When I was a student in the late 1960s and early 1970s I had a couple of holiday jobs working as a music copyist for a London-based composer who wrote light band and orchestral stuff for the BBC. I was provided with a copy of the full scores - i.e. multiple staves for all the instruments - and my job was to extract and copy out the individual instrument parts which would be given to each player to perform from.

I had to use a special music-writing fountain pen: it had three 'prongs' on the nib instead of the usual two, and by pressing slightly harder you could form the blob of a note head. Using the nib at different angles resulted in thin and thick strokes to make the note stems and beams of connected quavers/semiquavers, etc. The ink was black draughting indian ink (very opaque) and I had to write the music on translucent plastic (mylar) foil which was pre-printed with blank stave lines. This was so that the parts could eventually be printed on to paper using the diazo process which used coated paper sensitive to UV light and developed with ammonia. Any mistakes on the mylar had to be corrected using a scalpel blade to scratch off the incorrect notes and then re-written.

The work also entailed transposing the parts into the correct keys (e.g. writing the notes up a tone for clarinets/trumpets, etc), rationalising multiple bars rest into a single numbered bar rests, spacing out the music so it was easily legible (not too squashed, not too extended) and ensuring that page turns occurred in places where there was a rest for the player to actually turn the page. It was good work, although it didn't pay very well, 5 shillings per page as I recall. But it kept me in clarinet and saxophone reeds and I sometimes got to play in a band where the pieces I'd written out were actually performed, and I found I had actually absorbed all the music in my head in the copying process!

These days of course, we have music typesetting software such as Sibelius and MuseScore so the job of the humble music copyist has largely disappeared.

Excellent! That would make an interesting documentary Youtube Vid!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 05, 2019, 01:15:11 PM

...When I was a student in the late 1960s and early 1970s I had a couple of holiday jobs working as a music copyist for a London-based composer who wrote light band and orchestral stuff for the BBC...

What a great holiday job. I was at the crass end of the entertainment business, working as a Redcoat.

You must have a much more informed opinion than most, on how much work copying out a book like this would involve and how long it might of taken. I would be interested in your estimate.

One of the things I find impressive about this manuscript is how few mistakes and corrections there are. A lot of the things I have called mistakes aren't really mistakes at all. A free approach to bar lengths in repeats is apparent, but what is meant is easily worked out from the context. Playing in a military band would make it even more obvious. Other "errors" in the pages I am looking at  are, mostly, tuplets and grace notes mis-scored. Maybe the result of a tune being notated by someone who has never actually played  or heard that tune (yet).
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 05, 2019, 04:29:49 PM
I was at the crass end of the entertainment business, working as a Redcoat.
Hi dee hi!

Quote
You must have a much more informed opinion than most, on how much work copying out a book like this would involve and how long it might of taken. I would be interested in your estimate.

Oh gosh - it was such a long time ago. But having thought about it a bit, I estimate that a single page of 12-stave music (slightly larger than A4 size) would have taken me around 20 - 40 minutes to copy out from a full score, depending on how complex the part was and how much transposition (longer thinking time!) was required. Most of the band parts fitted on two pages and a full symphonic band score might have 20 separate instruments, each requiring a separate extracted part. Do the maths!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 07, 2019, 08:55:13 AM
Whatever, it sems a slow process - so far I've done a basic transcription of 31 (out of 43) tunes. Is this slow, fast,
acceptable?

Roger
(*) I think I've seen one example of a wrong note-count being due to the fact that the 'extra' note is in fact a grace-note?

31 out of 43 tunes done already sounds like a cracking pace, for goodness sake don't feel pressured about speed, it's been sitting there since 1800 so another few weeks or months won't matter. Good idea to check transcriptions from other early manuscripts, make that VMP transcriptions where possible  ;) .

I too have picked up on the fact that there are overfull bars where it's possible that some of the notes might be grace notes badly written. The worst of these somehow always manage to to be in the extreme right hand margin of a left hand page where the paralax distortion is at its worst and the notes are crammed together get them onto the end of the stave. I tend to mark these and let Chris give them the once over if I can't think of anything sensible to suggest. This isn't because I'm too lazy to put the work into research but I have limited knowledge of the tunes and the idiosyncrasies of 17th, 18th and 19th century notation, Chris is a far better sleuth than I and he has a vast knowledge of tunes and collections.  ;D

It sounds like you are doing fine Roger, fret not!
That's good to know - I'm about half way through my block and was starting to think the rest of you would all be done by now!  Certainly some tricky bits and some judgement calls that I'm going to have to leave to others, but some interesting tunes.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 07, 2019, 11:34:21 AM
I've done about 4 tunes from mine in a fit of enthusiasm on day 1, and then left it...
I need to schedule some time to do a bit of this each day.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 07, 2019, 11:36:12 AM
I notice that the Buttrey MS Blog:

https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/blog/ (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/blog/)

mentions the VMP Project which it has spawned, and also mentions this melodeon.net thread.

I also notice that this thread has been read more than 1700 times - more than three times as many of the
other threads I (randomly) sampled. Is this some sort of record?

I wonder if there's any connection with the mention on the Buttrey blog?

Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 07, 2019, 11:52:03 AM
I have a suspician that this question has already been answered, if so, apologies, but I have looked back through all the posts so far and I can't find one.

The manuscript writer uses a trill symbol which I have been rendering as !trill! but I think the symbol is supposed to indicate a particular type of trill: One with an accented first note.

Is there a way of depicting this in ABC or shall I stick to the easy option?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 07, 2019, 12:59:50 PM
The manuscript writer uses a trill symbol which I have been rendering as !trill! but I think the symbol is supposed to indicate a particular type of trill: One with an accented first note.

Is there a way of depicting this in ABC or shall I stick to the easy option?

I think this is just an ordinary trill. I've been notating a few examples from my own allocation of tunes. No need for anything extra such as an accented first note (not a normal ornament in any case) nor needing to start on the upper note as in baroque period music. Coding it as !trill! is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 08, 2019, 05:48:05 AM
I think this is just an ordinary trill. I've been notating a few examples from my own allocation of tunes. No need for
anything extra such as an accented first note (not a normal ornament in any case) nor needing to start on the upper
note as in baroque period music. Coding it as !trill! is perfectly fine.

Ah! I've used ~ in the 4 (I think) instances of this I've seen so far. I also looked at !trill!, !roll!, and !turn!.
I used ~ simply because it sounded O.K. !trill! is the preferred option then?

Is the use of ~ 'deprecated'? I couldn't check the standard - that page at the abcnotation.com site is 'suspended'.

Edit - 2 minutes later: In fact, I can't get anything on abcnotation.com to display. Is it busted, or summat?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 08, 2019, 08:16:19 AM
Ah! I've used ~ in the 4 (I think) instances of this I've seen so far. I also looked at !trill!, !roll!, and !turn!.
I used ~ simply because it sounded O.K. !trill! is the preferred option then?

Is the use of ~ 'deprecated'? I couldn't check the standard - that page at the abcnotation.com site is 'suspended'.

Edit - 2 minutes later: In fact, I can't get anything on abcnotation.com to display. Is it busted, or summat?

Yes - the abcnotation website appears to be down at the moment. :(
Perhaps there are hosting fees to be paid by a site admin somewhere.

Ornaments:
There are shortcuts allowed in ABC 2.1, although I can't off-hand remember if the tilde ~ is one of them. However, my personal preference is to use the full spelled-out options, !turn!, !trill!, etc. It might be slightly longer to type, but it has the advantage of being obvious what is meant to a human reading the ABC coding. 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 08, 2019, 11:03:52 AM
..There are shortcuts allowed in ABC 2.1, although I can't off-hand remember if the tilde ~ is one of them. However, my personal
preference is to use the full spelled-out options, !turn!, !trill!, etc. It might be slightly longer to type, but it has the advantage of
being obvious what is meant to a human reading the ABC coding.

Ta - good enough - I'll fix 'em - right now in fact, as I'm about to start my daily dose of transcribing...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 08, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
Can anyone help? I think I have met my Nemesis.

Tune JBut. 389

Described as "Noney Cremor  A Quick Step 2/4 D", in the page contents, I can make no sense of it, whatsoever, from the score.
Anyone able to recognise any of the melody as a tune known elsewhere, or come up with a serious guess at what the title might be?
I can play with it and make it into a tune if I apply creativity, but only at the risk of creating a new tune, which seems pointless.

I have looked through volumes 1-6 of Aird's (facsimilia), Playforford's 1651 (facsimile) and the Beggar's Opera, 1729 (facsimile) without finding anything it might be a corruption of.
Below is a straight abc of what I see when I look at it
X:38
T:Noney Cremor. JBut.389
T: JBut.389
N:
Z:vmp.2019.Greg Bradfield-Smith.
N:
C:'A Quickstep'
R:Quickstep
M:2/4
L:1/16
Q:1/4=110
K:D
A2BA|AecA e2A2|A2B2AA c2B2G2|d2B2G2 A2B2A2|e4 cAec|defg d4|B4G2d4B2:|
|:A4 e2ed|c4A2e2c2|A4 e2ed|B4G2d4B2|A4 e2ed|A2d4 fe|d4 e2fg|d2BG d4B2:|


Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 08, 2019, 01:03:19 PM
Look at it from another angle, quite a few bars are overfull, try pick out the obvious crotchets and quavers to fill the bar and maybe the odd little squiggly notes that are left are grace notes (which don't have a time value)?


Random thought but not much time to study it at the moment . . .
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 08, 2019, 01:20:03 PM
Can anyone help? I think I have met my Nemesis.

Tune JBut. 389
Described as "Noney Cremor  A Quick Step 2/4 D", in the page contents, I can make no sense of it, whatsoever, from the score.
Anyone able to recognise any of the melody as a tune known elsewhere, or come up with a serious guess at what the title might be?
I don't recognise the tune either, but it has a sort of Northumbrian or Scottish feel about it.
However, as is becoming clear to those of us transcribing the tunes, some of the tunes in the MS are badly or incorrectly notated rhythmically, to the extent that it completely muddles what the original tune might have been. This one seems to be a typically notorious example. There is possible confusion about the time signature and perhaps it should be in 6/8 not 2/4? But neither is completely satisfactory.

In some of my allocated tunes I have come up against similar ambiguities. At first I tried to include an additional edited, interpreted version, but after a while I gave up, because there were several different possibilities, none of which were obviously 'correct'.

I think all we can do in these instances is, just as you have done, transcribe the tune into ABC exactly as notated in the MS and simply add a comment in the N: field to that effect.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 08, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Following on from my reply to Greg's previous post, here's an example from my tune allocation which illustrates a particularly 'bad' tune in the MS, and my response to encoding it. I have done a bit of background digging to try to find a 'correct' version of the tune. I've included a link in the N: field, but other than that, I have not tried to amend the Buttrey version in any way; it's pointless to try.

X:65
T:King of Swederlands March. JBut.065, The
Z:Village Music Project 2019 Steve Dumpleton
N:Transcription is exactly as notated in MS.
N:There are many errors and inconsistencies in this tune as notated in the MS,
N:e.g. spurious 4/8 time signature, muddled note lengths, etc.
N:Bar 18 is indicated as "Bis" (i.e. to be played twice) in the MS.
N:However, other sources suggest that it is bar 17 which needs to be played twice.
N:There is evidence of erasure or addition of semiquaver beaming in the
N:final part, but whether the note lengths should be quavers
N:or semiquavers is not entirely clear.
N:For an original source of this tune see:
N:Aird, James, A Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs, Vol.3 No.434
N:Glasgow 1795
N:See https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)
M:4/8
L:1/8
Q:1/4=112
K:G
|:B3A GABG|c2 cc c2 dc|B3A GABG|A3 D3|
B3A GABG|c2 c>c c2 dc|B2 AG AcBA|G2 GG G2:|
|:GABc d2 ed|c2 c>c c2 dc|B2 B>B B2 AG|A3 D3|
GABc d2 ed|c2 dc B2 cB|A2 G2 AcBA|G2 G>G G2:|
|:G2 AB A2 Bc|"[Bis"G/"-"A/"-"B/"-"G/ "-"A/"-"B/"-"c/"-"A/ "-"B2 "-]"D2|\
G/A/B/G/ A/B/c/A/|G/A/B/G/ B/c/d/e/|B2 AG A/c/B/A/|G2 GG G2:|
|:GABc d2 ed|c2 cc c2 dc|B2 BB B2 AG|A3 D3|
GABc d2 ed|cedc Bdgd|B2 AG A/c/B/A/|G2 GG G2:|
|:d/B/G/B/ d/B/G/B/|e/c/A/c/ e/c/A/c/|d/B/G/B/ d/B/G/B/|A/F/D/F/ A/F/D/F/|
d/B/G/B/ d/B/G/B/|c/e/c/e/ B/d/B/d/|c/B/A/G/ A/c/B/A/|G2 GG G2:|
|:G/A/B/c/ d/B/A/G/|A/B/c/d/ e/c/B/A/|G/A/B/c/ d/B/A/G/|D/E/F/G/ A/F/E/D/|
G/A/B/c/ d/B/A/G/|c/e/d/c/ B/d/g/d/|B2 AG AcBA|G2 GG G2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 08, 2019, 03:55:46 PM
The ABC protocol page on VMP says:
Quote
The definite article is included where given in the MS, but removed to the end of the title and placed after a comma and a space. This is for indexing purposes.

Is this usually applied to the indefinite article too? My block has lots of "A Quickstep" and for indexing purposes again it might help to move that too:
Code: [Select]
T:Quick Step. JBut.246, A
Or perhaps not. What follows the indefinite article doesn't vary much, so if you left the indefinite article at the front, you'd still gets lots of Quicksteps, marches, Waltzes, Jigs etc. grouped together.
What's the official line?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 08, 2019, 04:09:28 PM
I have a lot of "A Slow March"
I'd forgotten and sent my first five tunes to Chris to make sure I was ok in the right track.
Chris tweaked my tunes to exactly as you have it
ie T: Slow March. JBut.123, A
Q

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 08, 2019, 05:41:23 PM
Yes, me being sloppy again. Definite and indefinite. At least "Quick March, A" would be indexed under Q, rather than A along with all the "A Slow Marches". and "A Minuets"
Nora Crena/Creina exists elsewhere on VMP as a decent tune, indeed it's still used as a sword dance tune in Goathland, though I can't recall it's title. Beyond need for help in Buttrey, just note the fact and add the aka titles.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 08, 2019, 09:23:53 PM

Nora Crena/Creina exists elsewhere on VMP as a decent tune, indeed it's still used as a sword dance tune in Goathland, though I can't recall it's title. Beyond need for help in Buttrey, just note the fact and add the aka titles.

The title is a good 'un but I see absolutely no resemblance between the melodies. Advice taken. I'll kick the board over (:)
Nora Crena is a nice little tune, though. Shame it's not right.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Stiamh on January 08, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
The usual Irish spelling is Nora Criona (https://tunearch.org/wiki/Nóra_Críona_(1)) (strictly Nóra Críona), which means "wise Nora". Pronounced "CREE-uh-nuh".
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 08, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
The usual Irish spelling is Nora Criona (https://tunearch.org/wiki/Nóra_Críona_(1)) (strictly Nóra Críona), which means "wise Nora". Pronounced "CREE-uh-nuh".

Does Criona mean crone?
I found tunes with your Irish spelling and tunes with the  other spelling. They were similar, but different.  I thought Criona was better than Creena. Pity they're not the tune I'm transcribing.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 10, 2019, 03:34:07 PM
May I muddy the waters a little more?
I have a lot of "A Slow March"
I'd forgotten and sent my first five tunes to Chris to make sure I was ok in the right track.
Chris tweaked my tunes to exactly as you have it
ie T: Slow March. JBut.123, A

I have several starting with "A Retreat", or "A Troop",  or "The <something>", which I have rendered with the indefinite/definite
article at the end, thus:
T:Retreat. JBut.011, A
T:Troop. JBut.041, A
T:Dushey for Spoart - A Retreat. JBut.016, The
I presume these are all OK...

However, I also have a couple starting with "the <something>". If the first letter of the article is lower case, this dodge does
not work, ie:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, the
fails in the sense that the "the" does not appear at the front of the title in the score..

The terminating definite/indefinite article has to be capitalised, so, do I leave it ASIS, or capitalise it, bearing in mind
that we are trying to reproduce the MS as closely as possible. Do I go for:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, the or:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, The

Also, I have some with two titles, eg:
T: The Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009
(there are other examples of this earlier in the post)

Should this become:
T:Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009, The
(which is what I have done)

or perhaps, be split into two title lines in some way:
T:Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009, The
T:Retreat(*). JBut.009, A

That is, a specific title line and a generic title line?

I can't imagine that, in the larger scheme of things, these are major problems, but it would be nice to be singing
from the same song-sheet first time around...

Roger


Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 10, 2019, 04:22:35 PM
Well, you live and learn!
I had never even noticed that articles at the end of the title were moved back to the beginning when rendered.
Or at least, they are by abcm2ps. There's nothing in the ABC v2.1 standard to say it should be done that way.

In answer to your question, I think keeping the lower case 'a' is a step too far in faithfully reproducing what was written in the ms.
To my mind, the indexing convenience would take priority, but I must emphasis that is only my opinion and not authoritative.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 10, 2019, 04:46:08 PM
[personal opinion]

I agree with Anahata about capitalising the definate article, it allows the tune to display and print properly and the title to index properly, a minor correction that achieves a great deal. It's not as if the original cannot be consulted by scholars. If you want to be PC about it you could add "N:Definate article in title change to capital letter" to the header but don't bother adding an NB to the title.

The addition of a waltz, a hornpipe, a retreat etc to the tune title is a description of the tune type not an alternative title, just write it 'as is' in the title line.

[/personal opinion]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 10, 2019, 06:05:02 PM
Yes, judicious use of capitals is quite OK and doesn't misrepresent the author's intention. In the case where there is a given title followed by "a retreat" or similar, then treat "a retreat" as a comment, thus C:'a retreat'.
BTW, that isn't an instruction to advance in a negative direction, it's a tune that would be used in camp to amuse the relaxing soldiers. Sometimes jolly, often reflective.
I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite!  :-X
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 10, 2019, 07:55:59 PM
... treat "a retreat" as a comment.
BTW, that isn't an instruction to advance in a negative direction, it's a tune that would be used in camp to amuse the relaxing soldiers. Sometimes jolly, often reflective.
I might as well chuck in my pennyworth of pedantry. I checked this out a few years ago when I was learning The Battle Of The Somme

Retreats were, originally, tunes played at the end of a day's fighting. There are bugle call Retreat's, which  were an instruction to troops to stop murdering the opposition and return to camp. There are marching retreats played during the return of troops to their fort/camp. As the nature of warfare changed Retreat, the bugle call, stayed as a way of signalling sundown. It is commonly known as Sundown. The marches classed as Retreats are still used as marches at ceremonial events. 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 11, 2019, 05:58:24 AM
Yes, judicious use of capitals is quite OK and doesn't misrepresent the author's intention...
I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite! (ChrisP)

...I think keeping the lower case 'a' is a step too far in faithfully reproducing what was written in the ms... (Anahata)

..I agree with Anahata about capitalising the definate article, it allows the tune to display and print properly and the title to index properly...
(Pete Dunk)

Thank you folks. That was my thought, but I wanted to canvass the opinion of t'body o' t'kirk'. The suggestion
from PD re dual component titles seems sensible too.

FWIW, this indexing dodge seems to work for any capitalised word of upto (and including) 5 characters, so one
can do it with other langauges. I checked out definite and indefinite articles in French, German, Spanish, Italian
and Danish...

Finally, I assume that 'A Troop' is the name for a 'ceremonial' piece of music (cf 'Trooping the Colour')?

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 11, 2019, 10:17:03 AM
Just a quickie which I've noticed.
Whoever is transcribing tune no.123...
"The Honey Steps" in the blog (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-80-183/) is clearly a mis-reading of "The Stoney Steps", a well known 18th century English tune with several variants.  Have a look at the manuscript; you will see that what has been interpreted as the 'H' of 'Honey' is the same as the 'St' of 'Steps'.
 (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 11, 2019, 10:35:31 AM
I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite!  :-X

Whoops!

Just a quickie which I've noticed.
Whoever is transcribing tune no.123...
"The Honey Steps" in the blog (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-80-183/) is clearly a mis-reading of "The Stoney Steps", a well known 18th century English tune with several variants.  Have a look at the manuscript; you will see that what has been interpreted as the 'H' of 'Honey' is the same as the 'St' of 'Steps'.
 (:)

'Tis me Steve and I'd already spotted it, that's one tune I know quite well. As an aside I've now given up even looking at previous transcripts.  ::)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 11, 2019, 11:01:28 AM
...As an aside I've now given up even looking at previous transcripts.  ::)
Yeah - I'm just noting in my N: fields that such a transcription exists...
Later edit: Actually, I now see that new transcriptions are regularly being added, so I'm not even
going to record them in an N: field...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 11, 2019, 01:20:57 PM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.

However, playing the tune, it is clearly a version of Banks of the Dee (albeit a bit odd in places).

Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?

Thanks.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 11, 2019, 02:04:52 PM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.

However, playing the tune, it is clearly a version of Banks of the Dee (albeit a bit odd in places).

Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?

Thanks.

I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House. The final bar on the line was truncated. I added the note it was likely to be, based on another source of the tune and the way the rest of the tune is scored and noted what I had done as an NB comment..
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 11, 2019, 02:16:26 PM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.


Is this a setting of [New] Lango Lee, a tune which crops up in a few early tune books?
[which has been a tune in at least one previous VMP  X:54 T:Lango Lee THO4.054, New]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 11, 2019, 02:22:56 PM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Is this a setting of [New] Lango Lee, a tune which crops up in a few early tune books?
[which has been a tune in at least one previous VMP  X:54 T:Lango Lee THO4.054, New]
Thanks Greg, I'll have a look.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 11, 2019, 02:24:00 PM
Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 11, 2019, 02:28:13 PM
Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?

segno?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 11, 2019, 02:38:31 PM
Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?

Seeing as the blob under it looks like it was a D that has been messily corrected to an E, I'd guess that's a rather curly 'E'.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 11, 2019, 02:43:17 PM
Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?
Seeing as the blob under it looks like it was a D that has been messily corrected to an E, I'd guess that's a rather curly 'E'.
Ahh, that makes sense - there are 2 occurrences of this in tunes 454 and 455, both above splodgy Es.  What is it they say, "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras" - when you see an "E" ...  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 11, 2019, 03:15:06 PM
I've completed my allocation of tunes nos. 44 - 78.
Files attached, if you want to see what I've done and my methodology for N: fields, etc.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 11, 2019, 04:57:03 PM
I've completed my allocation of tunes nos. 44 - 78.
Files attached, if you want to see what I've done and my methodology for N: fields, etc.
Ta. I completed the first rough transcription of tune nos. 1-43 this morning, and now need to go
through 'proof-reading'. Your file will be a valuable aid to ensuring that I comply as far as possible
with the VMP 'standard'.
Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 15, 2019, 11:55:50 PM
Doh! More dumb questions from a first-timer:

1) some bars are split across two lines - do we record that in our notes?
2) there are some instances where one tune ends, and another starts in mid-line - do we record that in our notes?

Or is this too much detail? Thank you for your patience, folks.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 16, 2019, 12:24:39 AM
 I wouldn't. Tunes starting mid line and lines split across the bar are just the result of trying to save paper. The back-to-back repeats between tunes can be ignored too. Tunes may or may not have been played as a non-stop medley but we don't know, so shouldn't assume they were. All IMHO of course.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 16, 2019, 07:43:02 AM
What Anahata said.
With respect to the back-to-back repeats between tunes, I normally put a repeat double bar line |: at the very start of the tune. All the tunes I've transcribed thus far seem to need a repeated A-music.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 16, 2019, 11:21:40 AM
1) I wouldn't. Tunes starting mid line and lines split across the bar are just the result of trying to save paper. The back-to-back
repeats between tunes can be ignored too. Tunes may or may not have been played as a non-stop medley but we don't know,
so shouldn't assume they were. All IMHO of course.

2) What Anahata said.
With respect to the back-to-back repeats between tunes, I normally put a repeat double bar line |: at the very start of the tune.
All the tunes I've transcribed thus far seem to need a repeated A-music.

1) Noted. Makes sense to me, and I can't see such annotations in any of t'other VMP scripts I've looked at.

2) Yup! All 'my' tunes seem to be the same, and I'm following the same procedure.

Thank you folks.

Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 16, 2019, 02:24:11 PM
From https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17 :

Quote
Repeat marks at the beginning of a tune are conventionally missed out and therefore usually considered optional. The exception is in multi-voiced tunes, which ABC2midi won’t play correctly if the initial repeat marks are missing.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 16, 2019, 03:00:48 PM
From https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17 :

Quote
Repeat marks at the beginning of a tune are conventionally missed out and therefore usually considered optional. The exception is in multi-voiced tunes, which ABC2midi won’t play correctly if the initial repeat marks are missing.

Thanks for posting that link. I don't think I had seen that page before. If I had, I must have not looked at the detail. Towards the bottom of the page there are what amount to detailed instructions on how to resolve and record the dilemmas I am left with. I wish I had been aware of it before.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 16, 2019, 03:08:45 PM
Just come across my first fermata. Dug out info earlier in this thread so put H before note.

Looking back across this thread to find out how best to notate, came across nigelr's 'curly E'
A few tunes back I had a capital 'D' above the stave. Looking at it, I realised he meant 'this note is a 'D'...'
The stave line above this note has been poorly written and dipped almost touching the line below, so it makes sense he was notating it to let us know he meant a D to be played. How considerate  ;)

Just getting on to some tunes with poorly curling photographs at the start of the tunes, making key and time signatures 'interesting'!
All the more fun  (:)
Upwards and onwards.........
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 16, 2019, 03:11:17 PM
In all this, we bear in mind that we are not trying to replicate the appearance on the page exackertally as the manuscript has it. The digital images are available for that, after all. We are reproducing what we can divine of the author's intention into modern notation conventions that a modern reader can easily understand. It can be argued that a reader can work out the intention behind the incorrect phrase endings, and that is true, but we also take into consideration that midi playback programs, like ABC2midi, are unable to do that, and can mess up, so please tidy them up if you can (recording what you have done into the N: field)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 16, 2019, 05:22:34 PM
...take into consideration that midi playback programs, like ABC2midi, are unable to do that, and
can mess up, so please tidy them up if you can (recording what you have done into the N: field)

Right on! I just finished editing something where there appears to be an underfull bar in the MS. I have
inserted a tentative 'correction', but I think EasyABC might have been c*cking up my 'correction' a little,
so I have just done the best I can, leaving it to wiser heads than mine to make the final decision.

On the subject of (usually) |: and (sometimes) :|, I have started out by putting 'em at the start/end of
each part (as suggested in the 'Transcriber's Notes'), but sometimes, by shifting them 'one note to the
right/left' I have got the tune sounding 'OK'. I am doing this in preference to actually changing the note
 as written in the MS (actually changing stuff except where it's absoulutely unavoidable is still giving me
the colly-wobbles).
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 17, 2019, 11:08:10 AM
I've now done the first cut of my allocation (413-462).  I've encountered a broad variety of issues, mainly:

- Odd symbols (see "E" issue above)
- Note legibility
- Odd number of bars (eg A or B part having 5, 7 or 12 bars)
- Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)
- Incorrect time signatures, mainly limited to tunes actually being 4/4 rather than the indicated 2/2
- Incorrect bar lengths (although only a handful of these and mainly on a repeat where the tune has an anacrusis)

I have noted each occurrence of the above in the N: fields along with any observations on whether the tune is the same as an existing well known tune.  As my tune knowledge is not particularly broad, I suspect that others will know far more on these than I do.

My plan now is to revisit each one, proof read and listen to the ABC again to make sure it sounds "right" and make any final tweaks, again noting any changes in the N: fields.  I think at this point I will have reached my limit and will hand over to VMP for the guidance of those more experienced.

However, this is something I've really enjoyed doing.  N
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 17, 2019, 12:10:28 PM

- Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)
- Incorrect time signatures, mainly limited to tunes actually being 4/4 rather than the indicated 2/2


If you're OK with modes that definitely is to be done.

With regard to time signatures there are often cases where a tune is clearly in 3/2 but signed as 3//4 or 6/4, and these need changing when spotted, and NB'd. Common time sigs I tend to leave alone as long as it doesn't cause complete mayhem. We don't really know how many beats were going on in someone's head when they wrote down a hornpipe for instance, it would depend on circumstances. Certainly 2/2 when written, or C|, adequately describes a bar with two groups of four quavers if that's how the author has it. And since C is the same as 4/4, enter it as per the MS.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 17, 2019, 05:48:28 PM
1) - Odd symbols (see "E" issue above)

2) - Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)

3) However, this is something I've really enjoyed doing.

1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?

2) I'm only capable of applying the simple 'rule' relating to the final note. For example, "If it's scored in one
sharp (ie: G), but ends on an A, then it's A dorian.". (this is effectively the same as the example quoted above.)
Is this simple approach OK? I mean, it can go completely pear-shaped if the original writer of the MS has made
a mistake in transcription, or if the edge of a photograph/image has ben clipped..

3) Moi aussi!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 17, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?
That's a curious one. Without the sign, there are only two beats in that bar so it could be a crotchet rest. I don't think it means play the "play the last note again". There are many instances in that tune and others where that meaning could have been applied but wasn't.

My guess is that it is either a turn (grupetta) or a segno sign. If you look at the entire tune (not just your jpg extract) there is possibly an additional repeat mark at the very end - a couple of very fine dots just above the stave. It might indicate a  'D.C. al segno' instruction, where by you finally repeat back to your curious 's' sign and play through the the end of the fisrt section and then stop, asif there were a 'Fine' marking. But I am not convinced.

It might be worth finding some independent sources of 'Lovely Nancy' and comparing those tune structures to the Buttrey MS. It might help decipher the 's'.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 17, 2019, 06:26:25 PM


1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?


Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 17, 2019, 06:38:19 PM
Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.

That's interesting. It adds weight to my turn theory!
Assuming it is a turn, which I now think is the most likely explanation, the first note needs to be made a minim instead of a crotchet and the turn symbol applied to it. Document your edits in the N: fields and you should be OK.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 17, 2019, 06:53:36 PM
I've just come across odd bar numbers, often accompanied by a overly large number of notes in one bar!
Yep, careful scrutiny ably assisted by increasing the image size on my iPad shows I've missed a very feint bar line.
Keeps me on my toes this transcribing stuff  ;D
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 17, 2019, 07:29:42 PM
Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.

Yes, I've six or seven other settings - one has a trill there, one has a grace note. I'll look at it in more detail
when I get to it - I'm systematically working through the second pass proof-reading at the moment.

It was the fact that it looked like a valid symbol, but rotated through 90 degrees which got me wondering
in the first instance...

I hadn't spotted the two very fine dots over the final :|. I may try that one just for ducks...

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 18, 2019, 10:26:50 AM
Working on Qinton's transcription of this very difficult tune, #191, I feel that it has some beauty and it's worth trying to make something from it. However, Buttrey seems to be transcribing from somebody else playing the tune to him, and he's evidently struggling. The sense within is not quite within my reach, so although I hesitate to ask the committee to design a horse and accidentally end up with a camel, does anyone have any further suggestions to add to my tentative alterations?
X:191
T:Slow March. JBut.191, A
Z:Village Music Project Quinton Cumbes 2019
N:An intriguing tune, some rebarring done
N:NB1 these notes all crotchets in ms, this my best guess
N:NB2 this a crotchet in ms
N:My note values in bars 4 + 16 may be wrong guesses
N:* notes appear to be dotted, unsure if artifact of old MS?
R:Slow March
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:G
"^Key sig C| in MS""_rest added"z2|\
DGGGG2|"tune edited somewhat, see notes"BGEG FA|GdcB d2|ef/g/ d2"_NB1"BG|FAAAA2|
DGGGG2|BGEG FA|G>gf>e "*"d2|fedc B2"*"|dcBAG2|G>GG2:|
Bc|dBdBG2|geedd2|dd Bd/c/ Ac|BAB2 AA|"NB2"A4"*"A2|
DGGG"*"G2|BGEG FA|"_compare with bar 8""*"G2gfed|fedc"*"B2|dcBAG2|GGG2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 18, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
So I counted the number of crotchets in the A music, 32. Hmm, that would be eight bars of four crotchets then. So, reinstate original C| time sig, move the barlines around (haven't corrected added minim etc) and we seem to have a tune of sorts!  :|glug

 
X:191
T:Slow March. JBut.191, A
Z:Village Music Project Quinton Cumbes 2019
N:An intriguing tune, some rebarring done
N:NB1 these notes all crotchets in ms, this my best guess
N:NB2 this a crotchet in ms
N:My note values in bars 4 + 16 may be wrong guesses
N:* notes appear to be dotted, unsure if artifact of old MS?
R:Slow March
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:G
DGGGG2"tune edited somewhat, see notes"BG|EGFA GdcB|d2ef/g/ d2"_NB1"BG|FAAAA2DG|
GGG2 BGEG| FA G>gf>e "*"d2|fedc B2dc|BAG2 G>GG2:|
Bc|dBdBG2ge|edd2dd Bd/c/|AcBA B2 AA|"NB2"A4"*"A2DG|
GG"*"G2 BGEG|FA G2 gfed|fedc B2 dc|BAG2 GGG2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 18, 2019, 01:01:01 PM
Quinton's version was verbatim and in 4/4, I played around with it in that above version. I think you're right about 4/4, so I had another go. It now works quite well but is very heavily edited, so I will put Quinton's verbatim version along with my edited version as here added onto it:-

X:191
T:Slow March. JBut.191, A
N:Heavily edited
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:G
z2|DGGGG2BG|EGFA GdcB|d2ef/g/ d2BG|FAAAA2A2|
DGGG G2BG|EGFA G>gf>e|d2 fe dcBA|G2 G>GG2:|
|:Bc|dBdBG2ge|edd2 d2dd |B2dc AcBA |B2 AA A4|
DGGG G2BG|EGFA G2 gf|edfe dcBA|G2 GGG2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 18, 2019, 01:42:06 PM
2) I'm only capable of applying the simple 'rule' relating to the final note. For example, "If it's scored in one
sharp (ie: G), but ends on an A, then it's A dorian.". (this is effectively the same as the example quoted above.)
Is this simple approach OK? I mean, it can go completely pear-shaped if the original writer of the MS has made
a mistake in transcription, or if the edge of a photograph/image has ben clipped..
The first note idea is certainly one that I use, but I think there are other matters to consider and it can be a bit subjective.  My thought process is normally:

1. Does the tune follow the given "key" signature (ie are there any other accidentals that occur regularly);
2. What is the tonic - the starting and/or ending notes;
3. What does the tune actually sound like when played - minor, minor'ish, major'ish or major (this is the subjective bit);
4. Given all of the above work out the closest/most appropriate mode.

I'm sure others approach things differently but this gives me a pretty good stab at what is needed.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 18, 2019, 02:09:53 PM
 Like so, B: and S: fields still to come:-

X:191
T:Sandra Cameron's March,aka. JBut.191
T:Slow March. JBut.191, A
Z:Village Music Project Quinton Cumbes 2019
R:Slow March
N:In it's unedited state this seems to make little sense, but
N:I have made a heavily edited version which is quite pleasant,
N:and named it after the donor of the MS - C.Partington, Ed.
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/2=60
K:G
"Heavily edited reconstruction - CGP"\
z2|DGGGG2BG|EGFA GdcB|d2ef/g/ d2BG|FAAAA2A2|
DGGG G2BG|EGFA G>gf>e|d2 fe dcBA|G2 G>GG2:|
|:Bc|dBdBG2ge|edd2 d2dd |B2dc AcBA |B2 A>A A4|
DGGG G2BG|EGFA G2 g>f|edfe dcBA|G2 G>GG2:|
[|zzzz|]
"Unedited original"DGGGG2|BGEG FA|GdcB d3|ef/g/ d2B2G2|FAAAA2|
DGGGG2|BGEG FA|G>gf>e d2|fedc B3|dcBAG2|G>GG2:|
Bc|dBdBG2|geedd2dd|Bd/c/ AcBAB2|AAA2A3|DGGGG3|
BGEG FA|G3gfed|fedcB3|dcBAG2|GGG2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 19, 2019, 10:30:43 AM
John Buttrey was a fifer, and although it appears at this stage that he wasn't the only author of the book, some at least of the tunes are specifically for military use. I don't play the fife or any other blowy instrument. Can any among us give a view as to whether the tunes as a whole are playable and within the compass of the fife?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 19, 2019, 11:14:24 AM
John Buttrey was a fifer, and although it appears at this stage that he wasn't the only author of the book, some at least of the tunes are specifically for military use. I don't play the fife or any other blowy instrument. Can any among us give a view as to whether the tunes as a whole are playable and within the compass of the fife?

What is the range of a "military" fife

[Edit: None of my tunes go higher than b but I have one tune that goes down to B, and a couple going down to C#. One tune is unplayable because it lacks a comprehensible musical structure (rather like the one Q has). I think it's likely the rest can be played on a d/g friendly fife.]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 19, 2019, 11:44:06 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife_%28instrument%29

It's a transposing instrument (who knew?) and there are several types, it seems.
So these tunes might not have sounded as written, if they were really written for a fife.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 19, 2019, 12:44:28 PM
John Buttrey was a fifer, and although it appears at this stage that he wasn't the only author of the book, some at least of the tunes are specifically for military use. I don't play the fife or any other blowy instrument. Can any among us give a view as to whether the tunes as a whole are playable and within the compass of the fife?

Many  (possibly most) of the tunes I have are found, somewhere, in Aird's Airs. the full titles of these volumes are variations on

"Aird's # Volume/selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs
Adapted for the
FIFE, VIOLIN, or GERMAN FLUTE"

if that helps.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: howard mitchell on January 19, 2019, 12:51:25 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife_%28instrument%29

It's a transposing instrument (who knew?) and there are several types, it seems.
So these tunes might not have sounded as written, if they were really written for a fife.

In the James Oldfield manuscript of 1808 from Belper in Derbyshire, some of the pieces are marked "Bugle Solo" and "Fife" at appropriate points. Almost all of the tunes are notated in G or D. James Oldfield is listed as "Drummer and Fifer" (along with 12 others) in the regimental records and was paid 1s 1 3/4d per day. The same records contain invoices for "C Fifes" and " D Fifes" (6 of each costing £2 2s for 6). I'm convinced that these tunes, of a similar age and origin to the Buttery manuscript, were written for fife but who knows if the keys were transposed.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 19, 2019, 01:20:20 PM
Quote from: Howard Mitchell-Borts (Mitch) link=topic=23252.msg278812 #msg278812 date=1547902285
... I'm convinced that these tunes, of a similar age and origin to the Buttery manuscript, were written for fife but who knows if the keys were transposed.

Aird's Airs are written as  standard handbooks of tunes for 18th C military bands featuring Fife, Violin and German flute.
Looking through them, the vast majority of tunes are in D or G. There are a few exceptions, but not many. So far I have seen a couple in C, one in F.

The Buttrey MS features many tunes that seem to be directly from Aird's, in the same keys, which suggests that the band  he played for played, almost exclusively, in D and G. They would have loved a D/G box player.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Gena Crisman on January 19, 2019, 02:56:20 PM
Don't forget the changing pitch standards, too! Once you go back far enough, the actual frequency they used for A4 etc on their instruments could be anyone's guess... Just because a score says D, even if they werent intending to transpose it at the time, it might be more like a C to us now.

It's still worth thinking about though. Just like tunes that are written for the melodeon might include note progressions and changes that can perplex accordion players, tunes written for fife would most likely include some Fife specific nuances.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 19, 2019, 03:05:41 PM
Don't forget the changing pitch standards, too! Once you go back far enough, the actual frequency they used for A4 etc on their instruments could be anyone's guess... Just because a score says D, even if they werent intending to transpose it at the time, it might be more like a C to us now.

That's true, but it doesn't have any effect on the playabilty of a tune on a fife.
The fife will be tuned to the contemporary standard for the band, orchestra, etc. it is being performed with. The variation is the same for everyone.

Edit:and these melodies are fife, fiddle anf Germ,an flute specific. Mine are very similar (actually, mostly the same) as  what what we use when we venture to play an 18th C tune.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 19, 2019, 03:55:59 PM
Other than for background historical interest, there is no need to worry about this transposing fifes thing.

The specified pitch (key) of the fife referred to the lowest note (the fundamental) which could be played with all 6 finger holes covered. So a 'fife in D' played a note which sounded a D on its fundamental, just like a D whistle does now. On most treble-clef wind instruments, the fingering of [LH 1 2 3 | RH 1 2 3] is nearly always 'read' as D, regardless of what pitch comes out. As a result, the D fife played at 'concert pitch' and was not a transposing instrument.

I've owned two fifes in my time, one in D and the other in C. The C fife sounded C as its fundamental, like a C whistle. To play the C fife, you read and finger the music in exactly the same way as the D fife. It simply sounds one tone lower. You don't have to learn separate fingerings for the C fife. In this respect, the fife family is similar to the saxophone family, which always uses the same fingering for the notes being read, regardless of the size and pitch of the saxophone being used. The written music is adjusted (i.e. transposed) as necessary to ensure that the correct sound is heard.

With regard to transcribing the Buttrey manuscript, it doesn't matter one bit what key the fife or any other instrument was pitched in, and it certainly doesn't matter about historical pitch standards. The important thing is the actual written notes. It is sufficient to transcribe the hand-written manuscript into the same key as written and not to worry at all about the pitch of the instrument it may or may not have been played on.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Gena Crisman on January 19, 2019, 04:10:29 PM
Well, I was really referring to these:

So these tunes might not have sounded as written, if they were really written for a fife.
I'm convinced that these tunes, of a similar age and origin to the Buttery manuscript, were written for fife but who knows if the keys were transposed.

I was noting that they probably wouldn't sound as written if played the same way now, in any case. That aspect seemed largely ephemeral, was really all I was getting at - as Steve said, it basically doesn't matter - I really only brought it up specifically to help further invalidate the importance of it.

I do disagree slightly though; the mechanics of playing a C fife in D vs a D fife in D etc, and the impact it might have on the tune and the mechanics of playing intervals, progressions, the dynamics of a tune, caused by playing 'away' from the most comfortable scales of the instrument - I think that's super interesting, but a bit harder to learn about - maybe that's what everyone quoted was getting at and I missed it. It's an interesting area, to me at least - I learnt a bit about how Flutes have developed over even recent years, and the options you can have added to them to help make certain things more viable, like c# trill keys. Sometimes you just can't do something comfortably on an instrument, so, if you're writing down tunes, even other people's, sometimes you don't write those things in and the tunes slowly change. I still think it's important when considering old tunes like these because, much like playing tunes from other cultures or even genres within your own culture, if you just play the same pitches, often you are not really playing the same music they did, and without recordings, it can get lost. It makes me wonder what having the G key signature really meant to the players at the time.

Sadly I'm not sure how much of that kind of information can really be intuited from the scores anyway, and as Steve also noted, it's perhaps rather outside the scope of transcribing the written tunes, which have already lost so much of that kind of information anyway.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 19, 2019, 04:32:35 PM
Haha! I almost wish I'd never asked now! It reminds me that several years ago the biggest row on the ABC developers group was about transposition and how to handle it in ABC. It was very serious indeed, lasting for years, and I think led to several members leaving the group, all because they saw transposition from different angles. I always take two sharp steps to the rear when the subject comes up now.
The simple reason I asked, is to confirm that it could be described as a manuscript for a fifer, since he was a fifer, (I already know it's OK for fiddle) rather than speculating as to whether he also had to have another instrument because of the nature or range of the tunes, or adapt them in some fifey way.
So yes, it's tunes for a fife.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 20, 2019, 12:14:47 AM
... I always take two sharp steps to the rear when the subject comes up now...

 I C what your doing there...;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 20, 2019, 06:58:55 AM

The first note idea is certainly one that I use, but I think there are other matters to consider and it can be a bit subjective.
My thought process is normally:

1. Does the tune follow the given "key" signature (ie are there any other accidentals that occur regularly);
2. What is the tonic - the starting and/or ending notes;
3. What does the tune actually sound like when played - minor, minor'ish, major'ish or major (this is the subjective bit);
4. Given all of the above work out the closest/most appropriate mode.

I'm sure others approach things differently but this gives me a pretty good stab at what is needed.

Ta. Nice to know I'm not making a complete muck-up!

1./2. Yes, I've seen a few examples where either the tune is scored 'just plain wrong(ish)', eg: (a) scored for Highland
        pipes, when t'experts reackon it's in Dmaj; or (b) is scored (say) in G with all Fs marked as Fnat, and ending on
        an A, so presumably it's really Aminor(ish). (I hope that's right!); or (c) the order in which the parts are played can
        'change everything' (so playing ABCA rather than ABC means it looks like G not F#loc!!!).
3.     Subjective, and really quite important?
4.     The difficult-est bit...

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 21, 2019, 05:47:14 PM
I was intrigued by Ken Purvis's references to Carroll so I asked him to elucidate (via the Buttrey Fife Music site). I got this reply:

"Carroll was an Irish-American military musician stationed at Fort Niagara at the time he wrote his manuscript who apparently played both fife and fiddle. There are some very amusing accounts of his time there (c.1812) and I believe his MS is held at the Newberry library in Chicago. There is a copy in the Fort York library. There are about 250 tunes, many of which overlap with the Buttrey book plus a few of his own compositions.
Cheers,
Ken"
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 24, 2019, 07:50:54 PM
It has begun.

http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 24, 2019, 10:46:26 PM
Hello – I’m the great-great-great-great-granddaughter of John Buttrey. I’ve just found this forum page and see that there is some discussion about the tunes being written for the fife.
Various fifers at Fort York in Toronto, Canada have talked to me about the ms. It seems the fifers supplied the military and social music for the soldiers and that many times the same tunes were used for both. One of these fifers, Tracy Macdonnell, has played the entire ms and can play a huge number of the tunes at the drop of a hat. He does use more than one fife. I could ask him about the keys of fifes etc. if you have any particular questions.
The forts in Canada have been very interested in this manuscript since I had it microfiched in the early 1970’s at the Nat’l Archives, as this is the music that was being played at the time of the forts. Buttrey tunes are often used at the forts now and in re-enactment bands like the Drums of the Crown Forces. https://www.drums1812.org/aboutus  Ross Flowers, drum major of the Drums of the Crown Forces, would also be very willing to answer any questions. From my About Us page you can see the people who have been involved in researching this ms. I imagine all of them would be willing to answer questions that you might have.
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 24, 2019, 11:48:44 PM
At the opposite end of the Buttrey Ms, starting at the cover and working inwards, there are indexes for the melodies and harmonies; 49 unnumbered melodies interspersed with drawings and 49 harmonies; and the text of the Battle of St. Kitts. You can see how these play out here:  http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/melodies/unnumbered-melodies/

After the 10th unnumbered melody is “A Gamut for the Fiddlers”.  This is the only mention of fiddlers in the ms.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 12:58:31 AM
Ah, I see what you mean, having looked at the MS. The image, and that is what we are transcribing, merely says "O What a Beau (or Beauty? I can't make it out and the index doesn't help) my Granny was" - then does it faintly say "A Quickstep"? I see no reference to carrols or K.Purvis, which seems to be a note added by the Canadian transcriber or editor which doesn't concern us. It may be that K. Purvis was the transcriber and knows that it was written by Carroll? Could Google it, and if so then that info would be added as C:Carroll or whatever. Further investigation may or may not help.
On the Buttrrey website, all tune listings end with the time signature and key: eg.  Braes to Ballendine  A Retreat 3/4 G
Anything after the key is added notes by me from one of the researchers, usually Ian Bell or Ken Purvis. Anything after the key should be in italics to show that it is an added comment, but of course, I could have slipped somewhere. Therefore, if "A Retreat" comes before the key, it is copied from the ms. If it comes after the key, then Ken or Ian suggested this.
Hope this helps. Only found these forum notes today or would have reponded earlier.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 01:19:40 AM
Oh What a Bomey etc. Haha, the author is unfamiliar with the French and has gone all phonetic!
All the texts are phonetic which can be a great hoot. (This text is earlier than Buttrey leading us to believe that the ms was passed to his reg't from a previous reg't. His reg't was new when he joined.)
"on the 26th of Junearey 1782) ... We Whear Covred by frigats in our landing likewise the prince Gorg was hunder sail to asist us in Case any patroats should be thear to open on us but thar was None"
Can anyone figure out the where the accent is from ?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 02:47:51 AM
Tune 189 has in the typed notes 'Prince Lonarians March'. I've put this down as a title and in the Z: field noted I can't quite read it as such on the ms.
Does this mean the person making those typed notes could read it better when reading the actual manuscript, or are they too guessing?
A bit of both? Ken Purvis was much better at reading the titles than I was, but I did check each to see if I agreed. I used a magnifying glass on the original ms and whatever else help I could get.

As to #189, by scrolling in on the website I can read "Prince ___rians March" and with my magnifying glass on the original ms I can see it is "Lonerians". I definitely vouch for an "e" in the middle, as on the website, not an "a".
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 25, 2019, 06:53:33 AM
Hello – I’m the great-great-great-great-granddaughter of John Buttrey....
Welcome to the forum Sandra!
Many thanks for sharing the John Buttrey manuscript with us all. It is a fascinating document and a wonderful snapshot in time of the music played by a Lincolnshire musician living in the late 18th/early 19th centuries. I love all the beautiful illustrations too.
Your comments are also very informative. Please keep them coming!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 25, 2019, 08:36:25 AM
Yes, welcome aboard Sandra!
My friend asked me if I knew about a tune played by John Kirkpatrick, an amazing player over here, and I asked my friend and  fellow member Julian. That chance question led us to the ms and you know the rest!
I'd like to add my thanks for allowing us to transcribe the ms. It's a wonderful project for us and I feel privileged to be able to help in this task.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 25, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Hello Sandra,

Thank you for letting us be involved in this and for the help you are giving.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 25, 2019, 10:21:15 AM
Hello – I’m the great-great-great-great-granddaughter of John Buttrey...
Sandra, you and I have already exchanged private messages about different (though related) matters,
but I'll just add my two-penn'orth - welcome to the forum! Thank you again for making this fantastic
resource available to a wider adience.

Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 25, 2019, 11:40:18 AM
Back to deciphering the MS:
Currently looking at 669, bar 4 of the A music, and similar in the bar below it in the ms.
I have something that looks like an inverted 'L'. A definite straight line on the top, not a blob that I'd expect to denote a note.
Is this a pause or a 'ghost' marking?
It makes sense listening to the tune if I add it as  a pause.....
cheers
Q
currently sorting a few more tunes!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 25, 2019, 12:48:39 PM
If it looks a bit like a back to front number 7 then it's possibly a crotchet rest which used to look like a reversed quaver rest . . .
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 25, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
Yep that's the boy!
I tried adding the rest into the notation when I asked here and it made sense within the tune, but I wanted to make sure.
Thanks Pete.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 06:52:48 PM
Yes, welcome aboard Sandra!
My friend asked me if I knew about a tune played by John Kirkpatrick, an amazing player over here, and I asked my friend and  fellow member Julian. That chance question led us to the ms and you know the rest!
We all owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ian Bell, melodeon player in Canada, who harassed the Cdn Natl'l Archives in the 80's about finding old music until he found the Buttrey MS; sent the Shropshire tune to John Kirkpatrick; then when tracked down last month, told you folks about the Buttrey website. He's the piece that brought us all together.

You might enjoy seeing his Ontario Traditional Music Library website: http://www.ontariotraditionalmusic.ca/results?subject=21&page=1     

I already knew Ian from contra dancing and Folk Festivals but only through his website last year did I find out he was interested in my ms. He came to visit it the next day !
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 07:02:30 PM
'My' section (1-43) includes several tunes where the Buttrey team have already transcribed the tune and included a JPEG image of the score on the web site. I am using these as the initial basis for my own transcriptions, but once I have an initial draft, I will go back and carefully compare the Buttrey transcriptionwith the page image, and make any 'necessary' changes.
Please note that the previous transcribers were working from what I am told was a really horrible 1970's microfiche or later on some early 1990's black & white photos taken by Fort York. They are now in love with the new colour photos taken by me and Ross Flowers which are "so much easier to read" (although still quite something to tackle). So what you are seeing is probably much more accurate than what they were able to see.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 07:14:22 PM
I cannot think of a single instance where late 18th - early 19th century music of this genre would ever have a 5/4 time signature!
I assume this is #27. I have revised it to 3/4. (When typing the lists, I did not check the time or key signatures provided by Fort York but included them simply because it seemed they must be helping someone.) I hope you like having the "suspected" titles under each photo. Working those out was a huge project for the first half of the ms. Eventually the ink and penmanship got better so the photos could be read themselves.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 25, 2019, 07:33:41 PM
Ah... thanks Sandra.
John Kirkpatrick lives in Shropshire and actively digs out old tunes from his area. For Ian Bell to dig it out and send JK the Shropshire Militia Hornpipe was fortuitous indeed as it was the catalyst for all this. I'd assumed John had found it himself. That's answered that question!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 08:27:59 PM
X:191
T:Sandra Cameron's March,aka. JBut.191
T:Slow March. JBut.191, A
Z:Village Music Project Quinton Cumbes 2019
R:Slow March
N:In it's unedited state this seems to make little sense, but
N:I have made a heavily edited version which is quite pleasant,
N:and named it after the donor of the MS - C.Partington, Ed.
So I have my own march now !!   It's quite pretty (in the edited version). I'm honoured.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on January 25, 2019, 08:30:04 PM
Ah... thanks Sandra.
John Kirkpatrick lives in Shropshire and actively digs out old tunes from his area. For Ian Bell to dig it out and send JK the Shropshire Militia Hornpipe was fortuitous indeed as it was the catalyst for all this. I'd assumed John had found it himself. That's answered that question!
Q

And my friend Q asked me if I knew the tune (as I live in Shropshire and know John K). I didn't - but a search on line led me to a review of the recording by John K which mentioned the Buttrey ms - and so I found this wonderful collection and shared the news with Q. I didn't at first appreciate that the source was hardly known over here...And I am so pleased that that will change.
As a keen student of military history I also wonder whether there are other manuscripts from this period buried in regimental archives...
J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 25, 2019, 08:55:46 PM
a search on line led me to a review of the recording by John K which mentioned the Buttrey ms - and so I found this wonderful collection and shared the news with Q. ...
As a keen student of military history I also wonder whether there are other manuscripts from this period buried in regimental archives...
Many thanks for bringing us all together.   (:)

A drum major who uses the Buttrey MS with his fife and drum band has said "this is the only collection of British military music that we know of, created in and around the Napoleonic period by a Drum Major of a British Battalion”.

Would love to know if any of you know of other such manuscripts that I could pass along to them.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 05:16:55 AM
I cannot think of a single instance where late 18th - early 19th century music of this genre would ever have a 5/4 time signature!
I assume this is #27. I have revised it to 3/4. (When typing the lists, I did not check the time or key signatures provided by Fort York but included them simply because it seemed they must be helping someone.) I hope you like having the "suspected" titles under each photo. Working those out was a huge project for the first half of the ms. Eventually the ink and penmanship got better so the photos could be read themselves.

Yup, it's 27 - one of 'mine'. Without going back over the (now voluminous) posts in the thread, I think I raised
the query about the possibility of it being 5/4, and Steve_freereeder's comment was a response to my query.
I subsequently 'corrected' the time sig. to 3/4 and it sounds fine.

I also convinced myself by a little experiment in 'calligraphy' that a copperplate 5 and 3 could be mistaken one
for the other when the thinner diagonal stroke (on the 3) and vertical stroke (on the 5) have faded.

However, I now draw your collective attention to No. 43 - it really does look like a 5/4 to me. On my first pass,
I have transcribed it as 3/4, because of the (entirely reasonable) comment above, but what does 'the body of the
kirk' think? Is it a 5, or is it a 3?

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 05:20:06 AM
'My' section (1-43) includes several tunes where the Buttrey team have already transcribed the tune and included a JPEG image of the score on the web site. I am using these as the initial basis for my own transcriptions, but once I have an initial draft, I will go back and carefully compare the Buttrey transcriptionwith the page image, and make any 'necessary' changes.
Please note that the previous transcribers were working from what I am told was a really horrible 1970's microfiche or later on some early 1990's black & white photos taken by Fort York. They are now in love with the new colour photos taken by me and Ross Flowers which are "so much easier to read" (although still quite something to tackle). So what you are seeing is probably much more accurate than what they were able to see.

I should perhaps add that as I have gained more confidence in this exercise (it's the first time I have
been involved in this sort of thing), I have actually gone back and re-transcribed those tunes myself,
starting from scratch and using the colour illustrations on the Buttrey web-site.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 07:01:01 AM
Hmm! I appear to be a busy boy this morning - to some purpose, I hope.

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 (https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6) in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?

Once downloaded as a PDF file, the pages seem a bit slow to display, but pass it through
a filter such as: https://online2pdf.com/convert-tiff-to-pdf (https://online2pdf.com/convert-tiff-to-pdf) and it seems to display OK.

Roger

Later edit: This also seems to be available at:
https://archive.org/details/imslp-compleat-tutor-for-the-fife-anonymous (https://archive.org/details/imslp-compleat-tutor-for-the-fife-anonymous)

and at:
https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/97135480 (https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/97135480)
I don't fully understand the NLS archive - they seem to have items archived in two
locations - Internet Archive and the NLS web-site cited above. Belt and braces, I suppose...

I have not been able to find ABC versions of the tunes, though there is a 'shell' ABC script
somewhere at abcnotation.com.

There is a paid-for printed enhanced version available from: https://beafifer.com/ (https://beafifer.com/)

There is also a similarly named document by George Willig (pub. 1805, Philadelphia), also
available from the Be A Fifer site.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 26, 2019, 09:46:42 AM
I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 (https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6) in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?
One of the interesting things is the collection of tunes, some of which are in the Buttrey MS. In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate! This might be useful when trying to decipher some of Buttrey's wilder transcribings!   ::)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 26, 2019, 09:50:23 AM
Hmm! I appear to be a busy boy this morning - to some purpose, I hope.

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 (https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6) in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?


Lovely clear images.

There are already transcriptions of a number of Thompson's Compleat collections in Chris's VMP collection, but I didn't spot this little gem.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 10:18:01 AM
One of the interesting things is the collection of tunes, some of which are in the Buttrey MS. In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate! This might be useful when trying to decipher some of Buttrey's wilder transcribings!   ::)

Precisely! I thought it might be of interest (a) because of the clear explanation of the musical theory at the start - with
the symbols used, and; (b) because of the tune collection. I know a couple of the tunes (Rogues March, Capt. Reed's
March), but t'others are mostly new to me.

There's no date on the front page, but the use of the 'long s', albeit with the tail truncated might help pin it down.(*) Why
is this of interest? Because if some of the tunes here are also in the Buttrey MS, we ask "Did John Buttrey copy some of
his tunes down out of this collection"? (Well, I do...)

...I didn't spot this little gem.

So it's a 'little gem' is it? Oh, goodie! I'll probably transcribe a few of the tunes when I get a minute - just for ducks...

Roger

(*) Edit a few minutes later: I now see that Thompson's dates are given on the VMP web-site as 1758-1780, so
presumably this collection was published well before John Buttrey started messing us all about...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 26, 2019, 10:35:05 AM
Roger - Oh well played that man!
It is indeed a little gem, something to plunder when the opportunity arises.
Flicking through I see it's got the Rogue's March and March in Scipio too. Published in 1765, and both tunes still in frequent use. I love the longevity of traditional music, as opposed to the ephemeral nature of rock and pop.
Yes that's a lovely little backburner.
well spotted!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 26, 2019, 11:19:24 AM
... Because if some of the tunes here are also in the Buttrey MS, we ask "Did John Buttrey copy some of
his tunes down out of this collection"? (Well, I do...)...

Roger

I would imagine there's an excellent chance that Buttrey was familiar with this fife tutor. I believe Thompson's Compleat collections took over from Playord's as the standard tune books of the time in the 18th C, eventually to be followed by Aird's Airs. There's a wealth of stuff to get lost in, if you're that way minded (as I am).

If you haven't done already, you might enjoy checking some of these out (other Thompson's Compleat collections are on here along with loads of other stuff).

http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html
and here, for Aird's Airs facsimile:
https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)
and here for Aird's abc files:
http://www.campin.me.uk/

These are all great resources.

[Edit, as are these, which are the one's that got me started
http://www.oldmusicproject.com/oneils1.html   ]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 26, 2019, 12:25:10 PM
I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 (https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6) in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?


Lovely clear images.


That music looks like it's printed, not handwritten, which helps to explain its clarity.
It's a great collection. I've just nicked a tune from it to learn, and discovered that the four part march I call "The Trayne of Artillery" is in fact a concatenation of "The Grenadiers' Train of Artillery" and "The Marquis of Granby's March".
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 02:24:17 PM
That music looks like it's printed, not handwritten, which helps to explain its clarity...

Aye, it is - I should have made that clear in my initial mention of it... Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 03:05:15 PM
...In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate!
Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...

There is a mark called a 'Direct' which looks like a 'w' with a thin final stroke - these appear to be used at
the end of a line to indicate the first note on the next line.

I am interpreting a 'Shake' as !trill!, the 'Repeat' could be the 'S' which I raised a day or so ago.

They are all in the cropped page image attached to this post...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 26, 2019, 03:53:34 PM
Thompson Vols 1 3 and 4 on Chris' page were transcibed for the VMP by me in 2010/11/12 from PDF transcriptions by Fynn Titford-Mock in 2007. It's much quicker and easier working from printed matter!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 26, 2019, 04:24:13 PM
Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...
Yes - well spotted! It should indeed be a quaver. Never mind! Change it to a quaver to play properly in ABC!

Quote
There is a mark called a 'Direct' which looks like a 'w' with a thin final stroke - these appear to be used at
the end of a line to indicate the first note on the next line.
Yes - that's a rarely used instruction. Elsewhere it is sometimes shown as a note head in brackets. But when the staves are all clearly visible, as here, the 'direction' is pretty much redundant; indeed it's more of a distraction.
Also, the 'w' sign could be mistaken for a mordant.

Quote
I am interpreting a 'Shake' as !trill!,
Yes, that's an old term for a trill.

Quote
the 'Repeat' could be the 'S' which I raised a day or so ago.

Strictly, the segno 'S' sign should be used to mark the place where you should repeat back to. Usually the actual repeat should be a D.S. (Dal Segno) instruction, as opposed to a D.C. (Da Capo) which means go back to the beginning. But I couldn't find any actual examples of D.S. in the tunes which follow.

Most of the terms are explained in more detail on the page following your cropped image.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 26, 2019, 05:42:35 PM
Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...

It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note.

To get a machine to play it "correctly" a second ending with a quaver might be a more accurate solution.
Trouble is, these scores were written for humans capable of making judgements, or even the personal use of the scribe. A human doesn't need that degree of accuracy. I sure Chris would prefer the quaver compromise but, those using the manuscript to learn tunes from probably wouldn't even have noticed. It's purpose was for people to use them, not machine's

If you're trying to get an idea of what a tune should sound like you're far, far better off listening to a recording of someone playing it well. If it's a tune that has never broken out of it's source MSS now's your opportunity to create something.

Having said that, maybe technology will overtake my opinion. Maybe someone has come up with plug ins that can add realistic 17th and 18th C dance rhythms to a raw file. Can't be that hard. It's easy to do for contemporary dance music.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 26, 2019, 07:28:13 PM
It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note. etc...

Yeah, I have that feeling nagging away at me in the background all the time, which is why I put
'wrong' in quotes. It's a b*gger...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 26, 2019, 07:30:15 PM
It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note. etc...

Yeah, I have that feeling nagging away at me in the background all the time, which is why I put
'wrong' in quotes. It's a b*gger...

If it makes you feel better, Chris said change it to make it play right, when I asked him about this sort of issue, but make the smallest changes you can.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 27, 2019, 12:50:24 AM
It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note.
Yes - on looking at the tune again, you're probably right.

But then, to be strictly correct, the A-music needs to end with a 1st time and a 2nd time bar - the 1st time with a crotchet before the repeat sign, and the 2nd time with a dotted crotchet to lead into the B-music. Then following on, the B-music also needs to end with a 1st time and a 2nd time bar - the 1st time with a dotted crotchet before the repeat sign, and the 2nd time with a crotchet to ensure rhythmic integrity with the opening crotchet.

Amending the tune in this way would ensure it played correctly in ABC.

It's all a bit pedantic - the meaning of the tune as it stands is clear enough, but you would lose marks in Grade 5 theory of music if you wrote it as printed.  ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 27, 2019, 02:20:33 PM
I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees  above the note.
It's not at the end of a line, could it be a trill?
Q at it again.....
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 27, 2019, 02:29:36 PM
I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees

You can get tablets for that.  :|glug
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 27, 2019, 02:33:21 PM
 ;D
you bad lad...…. but is it a trill?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 27, 2019, 02:35:27 PM
I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees  above the note.
It's not at the end of a line, could it be a trill?

Is it like the attached? I have several of these and have interpreted them as a trill.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 27, 2019, 02:40:44 PM
Ah Yes, thank you Roger.

See Pete - a Wonky wubbleyou!
I rest my case m'lud
 ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 28, 2019, 06:58:51 AM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?
Hello Nigelr - I've retaken the photo of tunes 441-445. It wins the biggest improvement of a retake so far. Hope you find this works better for you. - Sandy
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 28, 2019, 07:26:10 AM
I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House. The final bar on the line was truncated. I added the note it was likely to be, based on another source of the tune and the way the rest of the tune is scored and noted what I had done as an NB comment..
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394. Is there another tune that you are missing notes on ?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 28, 2019, 08:14:59 AM
I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House.
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394.


Is this a typo Sandra? Greg mentioned tune 494 and you referred to tune 394, have you looked at the wrong tune?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 28, 2019, 08:34:02 AM
I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House.
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394.


Is this a typo Sandra? Greg mentioned tune 494 and you referred to tune 394, have you looked at the wrong tune?

Sandra's right. The Pinkie House is one of the tunes I did. It's tune 394. The bottom corner was not completely in view in view. Maybe it's the way I'm viewing them. I'll check.

Edit. I checked and, whatever my issue was, I appear to have resolved it. The tune is notated as in the manuscript and I have not noted a problem.
Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 28, 2019, 02:18:59 PM
The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 28, 2019, 04:24:01 PM
The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
I've still some way to go yet, but who do you send them to, and how? Ta. Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 28, 2019, 04:28:13 PM
Email the saved abc file to Chris Partington.
He'll check it over and return the amended file to you.
I think then when all the files are in and corrected we all get a complete file of everyone's work.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 28, 2019, 04:51:23 PM
Just a quick reminder...

Remember to back up your hard drive or wherever you are saving your Buttrey transcriptions. Just in case the worst happens and your hard drive fails or your computer catches fire, or...  :o
You don't want to have to repeat all that hard work for the sake of a minute or two saving a copy of your ABC files somewhere else.

Each time I finish doing a bit of transcribing, I save the ABC files to my Dropbox account. It only takes a couple of minutes and I know the files are safe in the Dropbox cloud.  :Ph
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 28, 2019, 05:21:18 PM
When you've finished and checked your batch email it as an attachment to me.
It will be checked and a PDF made of it, then added to the growing file on the website.
If you would like your batch back separately just ask, I keep a copy, otherwise view it in one big file here:-
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on January 29, 2019, 08:28:08 AM
Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?
Hello Nigeir - I've retaken the photo of tunes 441-445. It wins the biggest improvement of a retake so far. Hope you find this works better for you. - Sandy
Hi Sandra.  Many thanks for that - I'll revisit that page and have another look.  Nigel
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 29, 2019, 08:57:27 PM
Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
Hi Greg - I've replaced the photo for tunes #404-407. My, your image was on a terrible angle. https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-373-458/
Just so folks know, we never ever assumed anyone would be transcribing these tunes on mass. By posting them, musicians could play right from the screen unlike the previous photos or microfiche, so that made them pretty happy. If they really liked a tune, and could see it well, they could transcribe it if they wanted.

The process of figuring out which tunes were on each photo and listing the tunes below was HUGE !!  So I didn't check each photo as I posted them to see everything was included. I just trimmed off Tracy's fingers as much as possible and misc background so the tunes would show as large as possible on the screen. (I also hate opening the ms. It's so delicate.)

I will look ahead and see which pages are badly cut. Please continue to let me know which pages you need retaken - Sandy
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 29, 2019, 08:59:21 PM
The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
Wow - that's incredible !  Thank you for jumping in like this everyone !!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 30, 2019, 12:26:10 AM
Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
Hi Greg - I've replaced the photo for tunes #404-407. My, your image was on a terrible angle. https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-373-458/

Wey hey, I made the correct guess.
Thanks Sandra.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 12:33:40 AM
I've started looking through the images on the website for ones with the right side cut off since this seems to be a common problem.

Most of the following were missing notes on the right hand side so have been replaced:
#153-157; #174-177
#187-190; #195-198; #203-207 The first 2 are just better photos
#211-215  Just a better photo
#305-310; #351-355  (Will be retaking #316-319; 351-355)
#432-436 (many, many missing notes)
#467-471; #475-478
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 12:40:04 AM
Answering a question that came up a while back, the Drum Major of the Drums of the Crown Forces (Canada) says:

The military fifes were keyed in Bb or C.

But they could only play music written in D or G.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 30, 2019, 01:03:44 AM
Ah. In melodeon terms, I think that is much like saying that I have melodeons in D/G and C/F but I can only play the C/F in D/G.
In other words, the fifers were taught to read music as if they were playing a D fife, and to use the corresponding fingering,  but applied that to Bb and C instruments.

The power of diatonic instruments is apparent again.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 30, 2019, 05:16:19 AM
Ah. In melodeon terms, I think that is much like saying that I have melodeons in D/G and C/F but
I can only play the C/F in D/G. In other words, the fifers were taught to read music as if they were
playing a D fife, and to use the corresponding fingering,  but applied that to Bb and C instruments.

The power of diatonic instruments is apparent again.

Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife? In other
words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 30, 2019, 08:58:55 AM
Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife?
Correct.

Quote
In other words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Also correct, depending on the particular instrument the fifer was playing.

If the fifer was playing a D fife, it would be at concert pitch, i.e. non-transposing, so you could indeed play along with that on your G/D anglo, or any other of your instruments which sounded the same note as was being read.

But if the fifer was playing a C fife the music would sound a tone lower. A tune written in G would come out sounding in F; a tune written in D would come out sounding in C. So you couldn't play along with that without adjusting the key in which you were playing in.

Like clarinettists and saxophonists, fifers always read and play exactly the same fingering regardless of the size/pitch of their instruments. It means that they don't have to learn new fingerings for each key they play in.  For example, if you see a written G, you always finger that with the three fingers of your left hand*. The written music is adjusted so that the sound always comes out at the correct pitch.

Sometimes people get confused by the two different conventions of naming the pitch of the instruments.
Relatively 'simple' instruments such as fifes and whistles are named according to the lowest note they can play with all finger holes closed. So the lowest note on a D whistle and fife is actually a D. On a C whistle/fife it is actually a C, and so on.

However, as wind instruments became more complex with mechanical keywork to extend the range downwards, that description no longer worked. The convention adopted, and in universal use for orchestral instruments, is "if I play a written/fingered C on my instrument, the actual real pitch of the note which sounds will be the named 'key' of my instrument".
So - a clarinet in Bb reads and fingers a written C but it sounds Bb;
a clarinet in A reads and fingers a written C but it sounds A;
a saxophone in Eb (e.g alto, baritone, etc.) reads and fingers a written C but it sounds Eb, and so on.


* it's slightly different for clarinets which don't overblow in octaves, so there are several possible fingerings for G depending on which octave you are playing in. But those fingerings are always the same regardless of the size and pitch of the clarinet concerned. 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 30, 2019, 09:53:31 AM

Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife? In other
words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Roger

That's what I understand the Drum Major to be saying (I have been known to get stuff wrong, but I think I have this right.).
Further allowance would need to be made for the variation in standard pitch over time, but that wouldn't affect musicians of the day..

So, if a fifer picks up a C fife and plays a tune scored in D, it will come out in C.
If he plays a tune in G, it will come out in F.
Similarly, a Bb fife will put D and G into Bb and Eb, respectively.
Presumably, these pitches matched the other instruments they played along with in their military band.

But, Aird's Airs are described as being for the fife, violin or German flute, playing in military bands. Did fifers have D fifes for playing in "civilian" dance bands orchestras or, did they only ever play with other military musicians? Did the other users of the scores play with transposing instruments? Did the violin players tune their instruments down a tone, or two to use this music?

One thing that has been puzzling me a bit is that the vast majority of Buttrey's and Aird's tunes are in D or G whereas, other publications tend to have a variety. Caledonian Country Dances, for instance, has tunes in flat and sharp keys, but seems to favour the flat keys.

[Edit: I cross posted with Steve, who is much better at providing answers than I am, but I have let this post stand because the questions raised intrigue me. What were things really like, for musicians of the day?] 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on January 30, 2019, 10:08:03 AM
One thing that has been puzzling me a bit is that the vast majority of Buttrey's and Aird's tunes are
in D or G whereas, other publications tend to have a variety. Caledonian Country Dances, for instance,
has tunes in flat and sharp keys, but seems to favour the flat keys.

Clearly, John Buttrey was blessed with extreme foresight and realised that 200 years down the road,
Morris musicians would all be using D/G melodeons...

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 30, 2019, 11:35:42 AM

So, if a fifer picks up a C fife and plays a tune scored in D, it will come out in C.
If he plays a tune in G, it will come out in F.
Similarly, a Bb fife will put D and G into Bb and Eb, respectively.
Presumably, these pitches matched the other instruments they played along with in their military band.

Yes - a fife in C or Bb would be well-suited to playing along with military bands where the instruments would have been pitched in flat keys too.
But don't forget that a fife in D is also capable of playing in flat keys too, as it is more or less fully chromatic. It's just that the fingering gets a little more awkard as you go further away from the particular home key of the fife.

Quote
But, Aird's Airs are described as being for the fife, violin or German flute, playing in military bands. Did fifers have D fifes for playing in "civilian" dance bands orchestras or, did they only ever play with other military musicians? Did the other users of the scores play with transposing instruments? Did the violin players tune their instruments down a tone, or two to use this music?
The violin players did not retune their instruments to suit the fife. The fife players would have probably used a D fife in this situation, or else picked up their 'concert pitch' flute. A fife in D can read and play from a violin or flute or oboe part just as written; no need to transpose. Also, I suspect (but don't know for sure) that many fife players would have had more than one instrument anyway, so would have had fifes in D and C as standard practice. It's like most orchestral clarinettists who always carry around a pair of clarinets, one in Bb and the other in A. The written music is transposed accordingly and specifies which clarinet the player must use.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 30, 2019, 12:37:20 PM
I've just had a QI moment. Foraging around the internet I came across this:

"Each company in an infantry regiment was assigned two fifers and two drummers. When the battalion (5 companies) or regiment (10 companies) was formed up on parade or for movement en masse, these musicians would be detached from the companies to form a "band". This is how the term band first came to refer to a group of musicians"

I never knew that.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on January 30, 2019, 12:49:07 PM
No me neither.
I seem to be learning a lot from all this  (:)
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 30, 2019, 04:06:27 PM
Here's one for the committee. What key is this in, if any? One sharp, and sounds centred to G to me, but Nigel has gone for Dmix, and he's got all his others spot on. It is however a gapped scale, with either the 3rd or the 7th missing (depending on whether you go for G or D).  It doesn't matter really much, but as a discussion it may be amusing.

X:458
T:Wish the Cat from Hunder the Tabal. JBut.458
T:Huish the Cat from Under the Table. JBut.458
T:Jackson's Humours of Panteen. JBut.458
Z:Village Music Project 2019 Nigel Rainer
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com
N:MS states key as G major but tonality implies D mixolydian - NR
N:I disagree, I think centre is G, but it's a hexatonic gapped scale of some sort - CGP
L:1/8
Q:3/8=100
K:Dmix
DED G2B|AGE G2E|DED G2B|AGE E2D|
DED G2B|AGE GAB|c2A B2G|AGE E2D:|
|:d2B c2A|BAG AGE|d2B c2A|AGE E2D|
d2B c2A|BAG AGE|GAB c2A|AGE E2D:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on January 30, 2019, 04:40:32 PM
Starts and finishes on D as written, the missing F/F# gives room for doubt. If F Dorian, F# Mixolodyian.
"Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" "examine the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th notes to arrive at the mode" quoting some old geezer with a house named after him.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on January 30, 2019, 04:51:34 PM
Having tried it on a CF I would definitley like playing it in "C" but I not with thirds in the chords!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on January 30, 2019, 06:02:40 PM
I hear this as a tune in G.
It's one of those rare examples where "Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" does not work. It feels
unfinished to me.
I think my reason is that underlying chords all seem to be D and G. Dmix would have some C or A minor chords, and there isn't much room for them in that tune.
I can't imagine an F natural in that. It's too 'major' for me, even without that third in it.

Having said that, I wouldn't call it wrong if someone wrote Dmix in the ABC, because it produces a correct key signature and the tune ends on a D. I might well have put D mix myself. But some Mixolydian tunes feel much more "at home" on their last note than this one does.

Tonally, it reminds me of The Blarney Pilgrim.

I suppose this is also an example of the futility of pigeonholing tunes into categories. This one really doesn't fit.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 30, 2019, 06:58:57 PM
Starts and finishes on D as written, the missing F/F# gives room for doubt. If F Dorian, F# Mixolodyian.
"Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" "examine the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th notes to arrive at the mode" quoting some old geezer with a house named after him.

Usually, not always. To what note does it gravitate is what counts. Internet searching doesn't help, so many different versions, and so many opinions as to scale.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 08:03:51 PM
We have always wondered how many people wrote in this ms. Since the depiction of the ships at the Battle of the Niles and the Battle of St. Kitts were before John Buttrey's time and his regiment never went there, there is the assumption that his regiment was given the ms when the regiment was created in 1797. There are also several changes in the drawing the notes and titles. (Titles seem to be added in large chunks with different hands.) If you look at the 700 tunes you will see several changes in script, which could be just a change of pen?

Would love to know your interpretations of any changes in the script throughout ms. You have probably read more old music than anyone, so maybe things come to mind?

The second end of the ms with the unnumbered tunes is assumed to have been created last. Do you recognize these tunes as being later tunes ?

Do you see anything that could be of interest to date the various parts of the book ?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 08:10:25 PM
"Each company in an infantry regiment was assigned two fifers and two drummers. When the battalion (5 companies) or regiment (10 companies) was formed up on parade or for movement en masse, these musicians would be detached from the companies to form a "band". This is how the term band first came to refer to a group of musicians"
And all fifers and drummers were called "drummers". John Buttrey was listed as a "drummer" but we assume he was a fife player because of the ms.
If you want to know more about John Buttrey's history, go here:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca//about/history/
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 30, 2019, 08:19:59 PM
We have always wondered how many people wrote in this ms. Since the depiction of the ships at the Battle of the Niles and the Battle of St. Kitts were before John Buttrey's time and his regiment never went there, there is the assumption that his regiment was given the ms when the regiment was created in 1797. There are also several changes in the drawing the notes and titles. (Titles seem to be added in large chunks with different hands.) If you look at the 700 tunes you will see several changes in script, which could be just a change of pen?

Would love to know your interpretations of any changes in the script throughout ms. You have probably read more old music than anyone, so maybe things come to mind?

The second end of the ms with the unnumbered tunes is assumed to have been created last. Do you recognize these tunes as being later tunes ?

Do you see anything that could be of interest to date the various parts of the book ?

I'm a bit snowed under with just checking the tunes at the present, but yes, I've seen a lot of mss and know what to look for, so I'll get around to it. Circumstantially it seems you're on the right track.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on January 30, 2019, 10:44:50 PM
I'm not really qualified to comment on this but to be honest D mix doesn't seem right at all to me, I love mixolydian tunes but this isn't one. The tonality (as I understand it) isn't quite right for a mix tune, it's not (slightly) minor enough to qualify. That said, what do I know?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 11:01:40 PM
I'm a bit snowed under with just checking the tunes at the present, but yes, I've seen a lot of mss and know what to look for, so I'll get around to it. Circumstantially it seems you're on the right track.
Thank you so much. That would be great.  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 30, 2019, 11:11:37 PM
Steve Dumpleton - I believe somewhere you said you were going to work on 626-660 next. I hope you didn't try to use #626-630. It was squished from top to bottom and elongated sideways. No idea how a photo got taken like that. It has now been replaced.

Also #653-657 is now flatter and has an extra note on the right hand side.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 30, 2019, 11:27:33 PM
Starts and finishes on D as written,....


Seems to finish on an E to me. The D quaver is the lead in note to the next time through.
It doesn't jump out as being in Eaeo though.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on January 30, 2019, 11:57:04 PM
I hope you didn't try to use #626-630. It was squished from top to bottom and elongated sideways. No idea how a photo got taken like that. It has now been replaced.
Thanks, but I un-squished it using Photoshop and managed to read it perfectly well.  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 31, 2019, 12:29:26 AM
The photos for these tunes have been replaced. Again, most now include a little more ms on the right hand side although some are just a lot clearer:

#491-495
#500-503
#508-512 clearer
#601-606
#626-630 was squished
#653-657
#684-685 clearer
#756-761 clearer
#762-765 clearer
#776-780 flatter, more notes

8 images replaced between #781 and last numbered tune #961.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on January 31, 2019, 12:33:59 AM
my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
Hope you haven't started these tunes. The new images will be much easier to read:
#756-761 clearer
#762-765 clearer
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 31, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
I've been asked by several folk how "finished" their batches need to be in terms of corrections to errors in the ms. It's worth putting here what I've sent to them, "so's you know".

Really, you don't need to worry about it. If you are not practiced in it, it can take a while before you see solutions - and sometimes there aren't any! It is entirely sufficient , and what most will do, to just record what's there, or what you think is there, warts an' all, and pass it to me. It is my role to make editorial decisions to suit the VMP way of arriving at a product, and I'll often overrule what you do anyway, if I see a better solution! As long as you've got the tunes and titles down as far as you can, send it to me and I will do the rest.

That said of course, if you can fix it yourself it will speed up my job.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on January 31, 2019, 05:51:52 PM
Not sure if this has already been asked, but  I can't find any previous for it. Anyone able to give a definitive answer on the J shaped symbol? I wonder if its a crotchet rest.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on January 31, 2019, 06:45:07 PM
Not sure if this has already been asked, but  I can't find any previous for it. Anyone able to give a definitive answer on the J shaped symbol? I wonder if its a crotchet rest.

Must be a crotchet rest.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 01, 2019, 12:56:25 AM
Not sure if this has already been asked, but  I can't find any previous for it. Anyone able to give a definitive answer on the J shaped symbol? I wonder if its a crotchet rest.
Must be a crotchet rest.
Yes, definitely.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 01, 2019, 09:06:42 AM
Not sure if this has already been asked, but  I can't find any previous for it. Anyone able to give a definitive answer on the J shaped symbol? I wonder if its a crotchet rest.
Must be a crotchet rest.
Yes, definitely.

Ah, I can see it now. The top half of the contemporary symbol, maybe. Anyone seen it anywhere else?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 01, 2019, 09:49:47 AM
Can't quite see from your snapshot.
I had what sounds to be the same a couple of tunes back. Mine looked something like a '7', a straight top and straight down tail to it.
Definitely a straight top to the 7, not a blob as you'd expect on a note.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 01, 2019, 10:50:50 AM
In my brass band days (when we all lived in a rolled up newspaper in a muddy puddle), before the crotchet rest became a vertical squiggle, a lot of our music had eighth note rests looking like a sort of 7, as now, and the crotchet rests were the same but a mirror image. I never could remember which was which and used to dread them.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 01, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Can't quite see from your snapshot.


Is this better?
I can make it bigger, but it loses definition.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 01, 2019, 11:50:28 AM
Ah ok. Nope mine are definitely '7's' like Chris refers to.
Sounds like he had it bad when "'ee were a lad in't band"  ;D
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 01, 2019, 12:18:13 PM
Ah ok. Nope mine are definitely '7's' like Chris refers to.
Sounds like he had it bad when "'ee were a lad in't band"  ;D
Q
A normal orientation '7' is a quaver rest; a reversed, backwards '7' is an old-style crotchet rest. Like Chris, I absolutely hate those because when sight-reading orchestral or band music at speed you have to react instantly to rests and the old-style rest hinders recognition. Music from 19th century French printers/publishers is notorious for using this form of rest.  >:(

The squiggle or 'dying tadpole' crotchet rest is by far the best.

Edit:
I can now see that the squiggle which Greg has posted is like a backwards '7' crotchet rest, but it has a left-wards curved tail, which does make recognition reasonably straightforward.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 02, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
This second batch seems to be throwing up a greater variety of challenges than the first.

What do you make of this picture? Does it mean anything to anyone?

Two questions:
1. What does the ornate N signify? I think it may indicate a harmony note, or contra melody and have, tentatively, notated it as below, because that seems to fit the situation.
2. Is the low B a note or a blot?

N:NB MS has an ornate N by the lower notes, this is taken to indicate a second voice harmony
...
|"_NB"[B,G][Cg]g:|
|:d|g>abc'|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 02, 2019, 02:03:32 PM
I think the N is an ornate abreviation of 'Number", preceeding the number of the next tune on the stave below.

 YMMV!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 02, 2019, 02:26:50 PM
I think the N is an ornate abreviation of 'Number", preceeding the number of the next tune on the stave below.

 YMMV!

I know what you mean about the abbreviated Number, but why? I can't find another example of Nr looking like this (or like anything else), used in this way anywhere else. The C is clearly a notated C with a stem.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
I know what you mean about the abbreviated Number, but why? I can't find another example of Nr looking like this (or like anything else), used in this way anywhere else. The C is clearly a notated C with a stem.
It's definitely 'N' for number and the apparent rogue middle C is actually the lower case 'o' with a line through it, indicating an abbreviation, a bit like this: No. It's not a note at all. I think it looks like a note in your case because the 'o' has an ink blot, which has filled in the 'o'.

Here are some clearer examples:
Tune numbers 627, 628, 630. See attachment (now fixed). 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 02, 2019, 02:52:50 PM
I hadn't really noticed this but my current batch is littered with them, check out 753 and 754 on this page.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 02, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
I think the N is an ornate abreviation of 'Number", preceeding the number of the next tune on the stave below.

 YMMV!
Agreed.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 02, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
I hadn't really noticed this but my current batch is littered with them, check out 753 and 754 on this page.

True enough. This is the first one I've noticed. Your's seem to be in different hand.

[Edit: Now I'm looking correctly I'm finding loads.   :|bl

and Steve is right. An O with a bar through. Fooled by my expectations]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 02, 2019, 05:53:40 PM
I hadn't really noticed this but my current batch is littered with them, check out 753 and 754 on this page.
True enough. This is the first one I've noticed. Your's seem to be in different hand.

[Edit: Now I'm looking correctly I'm finding loads.   :|bl]
There's actually Ns with a superscript o throughout, sometimes more noticeable because a more recent (relatively) person wrote over some of the tunes or titles in a stronger ink. eg. Tunes 715 and 717 are the original lighter ink. Number 716 and 718 the stronger ink. A fifer here tells me that some tunes were even transposed right on the same staff with darker notes below the original ones.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2019, 05:56:01 PM
Test image download:

Please can you try downloading and opening the following file:
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-624-694/
Specifically the image of tunes 626 - 630.
Can you open the downloaded jpg file? I keep getting an error message saying the file is corrupt or damaged and can't be opened (tried both in Mac preview and Photoshop)

Sandra says it works OK for her. But I had to take a screen shot of the web page to be able to save and view it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 02, 2019, 06:07:44 PM
Test image download:

Please can you try downloading and opening the following file:
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-624-694/
Specifically the image of tunes 626 - 630.
Can you open the downloaded jpg file? I keep getting an error message saying the file is corrupt or damaged and can't be opened (tried both in Mac preview and Photoshop)

Sandra says it works OK for her. But I had to take a screen shot of the web page to be able to save and view it.

Works ok for me, if I have the right page. The one with the largish stain. I copied and pasted and Saved as ###. Both worked.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2019, 06:25:44 PM
Works ok for me, if I have the right page. The one with the largish stain. I copied and pasted and Saved as ###. Both worked.
Thanks, Greg. Yes that's the page, with the stain. Glad it's worked for you - I don't know why it's not working for me. :(
All the other pages on the website save and open all right for me.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2019, 06:35:55 PM
Works ok for me, if I have the right page. The one with the largish stain. I copied and pasted and Saved as ###. Both worked.
Thanks, Greg. Yes that's the page, with the stain. Glad it's worked for you - I don't know why it's not working for me. :(
All the other pages on the website save and open all right for me.
Further to my previous reply, I then tried copying and pasting into a blank open document (a) in Preview and (b) Photoshop. I was then able to successfully save as a jpg file from both. This has been an extra step not previously necessary. Something's changed somewhere along the line. But never mind, I have good copy of the file now!  Thanks for your help. (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 02, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
Please can you try downloading and opening the following file:
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-624-694/ (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-624-694/)
Specifically the image of tunes 626 - 630.

I right clicked this and saved it straight to my desktop as a .jpg, no problem. Maybe a Mac thing?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 02, 2019, 06:44:09 PM
Further to my previous reply, I then tried copying and pasting into a blank open document (a) in Preview and (b) Photoshop. I was then able to successfully save as a jpg file from both. This has been an extra step not previously necessary. Something's changed somewhere along the line.
I do things slightly differently. I 'select' everything on the webpage from the first tune in the batch to the last, copy it to the clipboard, paste it into Word (narrow margins), resize the images slightly to fit the page then save the whole thing as a PDF. I pop the PDF on my iPad to view and easily zoom in on the pages whilst transcribing onto the PC, I find this quick and easy.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 02, 2019, 06:46:02 PM
I right clicked this and saved it straight to my desktop as a .jpg, no problem. Maybe a Mac thing?
Yes - that's what I usually do too, with no problems. Except for this one page, which is the one which Sandra re-posted to replace the previously squished one. Maybe it is a maciferrous thing. But why?

A short time later:
I tried saving the image directly from Safari instead of Firefox which I normally use. Bingo!

Anyway - I've got it now.
Thanks for your help and suggestions.  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 02, 2019, 07:38:23 PM

Thanks, Greg. Yes that's the page, with the stain. Glad it's worked for you - I don't know why it's not working for me. :(
All the other pages on the website save and open all right for me.

Is that a blood stain?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 03, 2019, 07:48:10 PM
There are some truly awesome tunes among the Retreats if you take the time to let your mind wander. For instance, I imagine this one as a Sussex song sung by Shirley Collins.
X:3
T:Retreat. JBut.003, A
B:John Buttrey MS, poss. Lincolnshire, early 19thC
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
Z:Village Music Project 2018 Roger Hare
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:3/4=35
K:D
|:AF|D2DFEG|FGAF dB|AFDF AB|G2 F2 E2|
D2DFEG|FGA2d2|cecA Bc | A4:|
|:de|fdB2cd | ecA2dc | BAGFED | D2C3A |
B2c2{e}dc/B/ | A2G2F2 |((3EFG)F2E2| D4:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 04, 2019, 07:16:14 AM
There are some truly awesome tunes among the Retreats if you take the time to let your mind wander. For instance, I imagine this one as a Sussex song sung by Shirley Collins.
X:3
T:Retreat. JBut.003, A
B:John Buttrey MS, poss. Lincolnshire, early 19thC
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
Z:Village Music Project 2018 Roger Hare
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:3/4=35
K:D
|:AF|D2DFEG|FGAF dB|AFDF AB|G2 F2 E2|
D2DFEG|FGA2d2|cecA Bc | A4:|
|:de|fdB2cd | ecA2dc | BAGFED | D2C3A |
B2c2{e}dc/B/ | A2G2F2 |((3EFG)F2E2| D4:|

Two points, if I  may:
1. Oops! I see I have managed to leave in some unecessary spaces in the file, contrary to VMP
    SOPs. I will send an edited version of the  file to CP. Sorry folks!
2. Yes! It hasn't been mentioned much in this thread (to my surprise), but some of these tunes
    are just plain superb. Some of them are (deceptively?) simple but they just blow my socks off!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on February 04, 2019, 08:26:04 AM
Also there's probably a missing space in the third whole bar of the B music. I haven't checked the image, but in 3/4 it would be usual to bar them in pairs
|BA GF ED|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 04, 2019, 09:07:19 AM
Also there's probably a missing space in the third whole bar of the B music. I haven't checked the image, but in 3/4 it would be usual to bar them in pairs
|BA GF ED|

I'm pretty sure the image has: |BAGFED| My limited experience/knowledge tells me the same as you say, but (from memory)
I came across a couple more examples like this. I'm now doing the 'Compleat Tutor for the Fife' which I stumbled across a few
days ago, and just came across this: |a>gf>ed>c| - I think you might expect that to be |a>g f>e d>c|?

That one is in 'Foot March 8 Division' (p.19), and there are a couple of similar examples in the same tune.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on February 04, 2019, 09:33:38 AM
I'm pretty sure the image has: |BAGFED| My limited experience/knowledge tells me the same as you say, but (from memory)
I came across a couple more examples like this.

Yes, now I've woken up properly and got in front of a real computer - you're right, sorry!
And there are other examples of 6 quavers all beamed together on the same page.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 04, 2019, 09:48:10 AM
Also there's probably a missing space in the third whole bar of the B music. I haven't checked the image, but in 3/4 it would be usual to bar them in pairs
|BA GF ED|

I'm pretty sure the image has: |BAGFED|...

I have had a few like this. I have been pairing them to aid readibility and noting the change with a comment under the bar.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 04, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
I don't get aereated about spaces around barlines any longer, they can help when you've got old eyes.
The beaming-or-not question likewise isn't critical. They're usually fairly randomly applied in these manuscripts, and as long as the beats are intelligible then readability for the average muso is what counts. Dividing a mixture of quavers and semi-quavers into beats is often worth doing.
It is an often followed convention for music that has lyrics attached to generally have no beaming, but in these mss we assume they are not for singing from.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 04, 2019, 08:30:19 PM
Is that a blood stain?
The stain didn't bleed through to the other side of the page nor mark the page beside it. A couple of pages before is another stain. Definitely not the colour of the ink. My guess - could be blood. But no thickness to it. Have attached a photo of the other page with stain (without the muted sunlight usually used to make the notes show up better. All pages are actually brownish paper with brownish black ink.)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 04, 2019, 08:31:43 PM
Chris - Are you going to be transcribing the un-numbered tunes and harmonies ?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 04, 2019, 10:05:12 PM
Noticed there weren't any photos of the actual manuscript on its website so added a few today. You can see them here:  http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/drawings/buttrey-manuscript-cover/
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 04, 2019, 10:13:59 PM
Noticed there weren't any photos of the actual manuscript on its website so added a few today. You can see them here:  http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/drawings/buttrey-manuscript-cover/

Thank you Sandra. The thing that strikes me about this manuscript is a feeling of connection to those involved in it over the centuries. I don't know who they were, but I have a definite feel of what they were doing and why they did it. 
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 05, 2019, 01:19:38 AM
Chris - Are you going to be transcribing the un-numbered tunes and harmonies ?

Yes
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 05, 2019, 11:30:37 PM
Here's a something a bit different, for those that enjoy this sort of thing.

JBut.728, The Wounded Hufsay

This tune was originally scored in 6/8, which, along with 3/4, is a usual time signature of  The Wounded Hussar. However, is has been heavily over written by modifications converting it to common time. These make it tricky to work out exactly how the original score, or the modified score, should read.

I have been working on deciphering it but, anyone else up for a bit of fun.
Suggestions on how to present the results welcomed.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 06, 2019, 12:18:38 AM
The thing that strikes me about this manuscript is a feeling of connection to those involved in it over the centuries. I don't know who they were, but I have a definite feel of what they were doing and why they did it.
We don't know who had the ms before John Buttrey, or how many people had it before him, but to bring John closer to us, here's a photo of his grandson Alfred Buttrey with my mother ! (Alfred's son and his wife, Margaret, were the only relatives to send me a card and money on my birthday so they have never seemed like ancient history to me.)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 06, 2019, 12:47:46 AM
JBut.728, The Wounded Hufsay

This tune was originally scored in 6/8, which, along with 3/4, is a usual time signature of  The Wounded Hussar. However, is has been heavily over written by modifications converting it to common time. These make it tricky to work out exactly how the original score, or the modified score, should read.

I have been working on deciphering it but, anyone else up for a bit of fun.
Suggestions on how to present the results welcomed.

Blimey, that's a tricky one.  :o

My feeling would be to try to identify the original written version first and transcribe that. Then leave a couple of blank comment lines (%) then add a new T: field followed by your transcription of the second, over-written version. If you didn't know, you can specify a change of time signature mid-tune by adding an M: field in square brackets: [M:3/4]. Similarly, a change of tempo mid-tune can also go in square brackets e.g. [Q:1/4 = 110].
Use the N: fields to record your thinking and methodology.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 06, 2019, 09:08:17 AM
JBut.728, The Wounded Hufsay

This tune was originally scored in 6/8, which, along with 3/4, is a usual time signature of  The Wounded Hussar. However, is has been heavily over written by modifications converting it to common time. These make it tricky to work out exactly how the original score, or the modified score, should read.

I have been working on deciphering it but, anyone else up for a bit of fun.
Suggestions on how to present the results welcomed.

Blimey, that's a tricky one.  :o

My feeling would be to try to identify the original written version first and transcribe that. Then leave a couple of blank comment lines (%) then add a new T: field followed by your transcription of the second, over-written version. If you didn't know, you can specify a change of time signature mid-tune by adding an M: field in square brackets: [M:3/4]. Similarly, a change of tempo mid-tune can also go in square brackets e.g. [Q:1/4 = 110].
Use the N: fields to record your thinking and methodology.

Don't forget that this isn't the Dead Sea Scrolls we're transcribing. By all means salvage what you can, if you can, but it isn't always possible to arrive at a perfect sounding transcription that is a credible interpretation of what Buttrey had in mind. It's OK sometimes to say "indecipherable".
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 06, 2019, 09:21:37 AM
It's OK sometimes to say "indecipherable".


I had a handful of those in my first batch!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 06, 2019, 02:17:38 PM
Wonder if the ink ration had been relaxed  ;)
Phew. Yep, a bit of a conundrum.
Never knew the Dead Sea Scrolls had ABC notation in them  ;D
...but I take the point!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 06, 2019, 03:57:53 PM
Now changes of pen etc really intrigues me. There's a definite change of penmanship at tune #545, going back to the larger, lighter notes most of the time at #607 then a change to darker ink at the last 2 bars of #662 and again at #718. Then change to smaller at #733 and smaller again at #782 to the end of tunes in that direction #961. (The rest of tunes (unnumbered) start after the Indexes and Harmonies at the opposite end of the ms.)

Different authors? Different pens? Have you had any thoughts on this ?

[We know another regiment started the manuscript as the 34th didn't go to the Nile or St. Kitts. John was discharged in 1814 in England. One of the last tunes references the Queen so Ken Purivs figures this means it has to be after 1837, so John kept writing after he was discharged. He was also hospitalized a lot during his time in India which apparently is quite normal for India. When the script changes for only a tune or so, I figure he just asked a mate to write a tune down themselves? ]

You folks know so much more about music and all. Hoping you have ideas or thoughts on this.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on February 10, 2019, 08:12:20 AM
Having just got back from travels, I've had chance to catch up and read posts - really interesting.
I hadn't realised that British regiments hired civilian bandmasters (presumably not responsible for the fife and drum section with its battlefield role) in the 19th century, until the establishment of the Royal Military School of Music in 1857. Evidently this followed a joint performance by around twenty regimental bands during the Crimean war, in 1854. Playing the National Anthem, the result was apparently a cacophony as each band played their own arrangements - and quite probably in different key and pitch, as choice of instruments suffered as well (Thinks...been to lots of sessions like that !)

The RMSM has a museum, and presumably archives, which might well be worth a visit (and the staff there might well be interested in the project...)

Julian
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 10, 2019, 09:11:25 AM
The RMSM has a museum, and presumably archives, which might well be worth a visit (and the staff there might well be interested in the project...)

I just had a quick peek at the website. The museum claims to hold 'manuscripts', amongst other exhibits, and there
is an electronic mail address.

I'm wondering whether to... Not sure if contact should come from a mere bystander (though at CP's request, I am
slowly transcribing the 'Compleat Tutor for Fife' which was discussed here a short while ago). I am a little hesitant
about pushing myself forward in this way. Thoughts please, from the 'body of the kirk'?...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on February 10, 2019, 09:26:32 AM
Shy bairns get nowt!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on February 10, 2019, 10:08:23 AM
https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/corps-of-army-music/museum-of-army-music/ (https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/corps-of-army-music/museum-of-army-music/)
I searched for their music archives. If the link is good you will see they mention manuscripts.  My daughter did a workshop with one of their bands a few years back they were very approachable (perhaps recruiting!)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 10, 2019, 09:59:40 PM
Thoughts please, from the 'body of the kirk'?...
The body of the kirk tells you to do as you will and as Chris invites you. Stop mithering and just get on with it!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 10, 2019, 10:42:00 PM
Thoughts please, from the 'body of the kirk'?...
The body of the kirk tells you to do as you will and as Chris invites you. Stop mithering and just get on with it!

Or, as they say down 'ere, JFD it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 11, 2019, 06:34:32 AM
Or, as they say down 'ere, JFD it.

...Stop mithering and just get on with it!

Shy bairns get nowt!

OK, I know a kicking when I get one. Politely worded and suitably cringing message sent to
t'curator of t'museum. I just didn't want to pre-empt anything from more august folk than
my 'umble self. We shall see what happens...

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on February 11, 2019, 07:12:15 AM
Vote of thanks to Roger - feeling a bit guilty myself as I had been thinking of contacting them anyway with a general enquiry but had put this on hold until feeling better (seasonal lurgi and post holiday downer I think...)

J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on February 11, 2019, 09:02:06 AM
"post holiday downer"?

I hope not, Julian. The lovely collection of melodeons which you seem to have should be enough to lift even the very lowest of spirits. Buck up lad!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 12, 2019, 09:31:57 AM
I am going through my second batch of tunes, at the moment, attempting to proof read them and I have made some interesting discoveries. Don't know if it's just the tunes I have, or more general.

I have a whole bunch of strathspeys which have, clearly, been copied directly from Aird's Airs, vol.6. Apart from a few copying errors, they are identical down to  mistakes taken from the printed score.

Interesting as that is (to me, at least), it's not the main point, though. Comparing Buttrey with the printed copy drew my attention to a load of ornaments I had missed on the MS. Mostly trills and grace notes, plus a few phrasing marks. These are so faint as to be barely visible but, you can easily spot them when you know they are there, exactly as in Aird's.

I'm busy going through my transcriptions again, filling in the missing detail.

.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: nigelr on February 12, 2019, 04:46:28 PM
Interesting as that is (to me, at least), it's not the main point, though. Comparing Buttrey with the printed copy drew my attention to a load of ornaments I had missed on the MS. Mostly trills and grace notes, plus a few phrasing marks. These are so faint as to be barely visible but, you can easily spot them when you know they are there, exactly as in Aird's.
I've had quite a few of those in the 2nd batch as well.  I've taken to having the images zoomed to 170% minimum which means they are a bit easier to pick up on.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 16, 2019, 09:07:36 PM
I've heard that you are really moving along, so I've looked over the "Unnumbered Melodies" at the other end of the manuscript. These seem to be fine except "Poor Little Sweep", above the drawing of the Hunters, which was missing several bars of music. Will work on Harmonies next. They are fairly blurry.

Do let me know if you find you need any photos retaken.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 17, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
All the Harmony images have been replaced with clearer images.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on February 17, 2019, 08:30:09 AM
Thank you Sandra.  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 19, 2019, 08:58:22 AM
Thank you Sandra.  ;D
Thank you Pete.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 19, 2019, 09:58:43 AM
This is the last conundrum in the batch I am working on.
The tune is a Troop and starts with what seems to be a bugle call

These are my notes at the moment.
N:NB1 There appears to be an upside down fermata against this note [the A in bar 2]
N:NB2 There is a word written underneath this note which is difficult to decipher [the D in bar 8] but may read "Note" or may not.
N:The intentions of the fermata and the written instruction are unclear but may indicate some kind of D.S.

[Edit: As Roger points out, there are also standard fermata above both these notes]

Am I barking up the wrong tree?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 19, 2019, 11:55:30 AM
...N:NB1 There appears to be an upside down fermata against this note [the A in bar 2]...

I just looked at the example you cite. There is also a fermata above the same note, in the 'standard'
position. Is that correct? Maybe that will make a difference, but FWIW:

I have just finished transcribing the 80+ tunes in Thompson's The Compleat Tutor for the Fife. I just
checked the PDF copy of the original document, and there are several instances of an inverted fermata
below the staff. Not having seen this before, I had assumed that this was simply 18th-century laissez-faire
coupled with a 'free-style' approach to typesetting/typography. I simply assumed they were 'standard'
fermata, and registered them as such in my ABC code. I now see that there is an !invertedfermata!
decoration. Maybe I need to go back and correct my ABC. AtW, the fermata may be placed under the
note.

There were no examples that I registered of a fermata both above and below the same note.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 19, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
Here in the UK, unlike over the pond, we do not have a folk memory of fife & drum bands, though there may be some re-enactors somewhere. As a consequence we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 19, 2019, 04:27:37 PM
1) ...though there may be some re-enactors somewhere....

2) ...Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff...

3) In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer,
    and the word under is "Roll".

1) The place is positively crawlin' with 'em, though I haven't checked (yet?) to see if they have
fife and drum bands. See: https://www.historic-uk.com/LivingHistory/ReenactorsDirectory/ (https://www.historic-uk.com/LivingHistory/ReenactorsDirectory/)

2) As in 'Trooping the Color'?

3) Dare I say it, I did wonder if that was what it meant, though I couldn't have come up with the
eminently sensible reason given in CP's post to save my life...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Rob Lands on February 19, 2019, 05:59:15 PM
It appears military music is an area of research at the OU http://fass.open.ac.uk/music/project/music-military-culture (http://fass.open.ac.uk/music/project/music-military-culture)
However there isn't much on the connected websites - there is a list of military music publishers from 1770 through 1800's and a diary reproduction from a musician.
Interestingly it does suggest that in the early 1800's musicians were employed (not necessarily military) and paid for by the officers as a house band.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 19, 2019, 06:29:17 PM
...we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".

Just to make the waters a bit muddier, as well as Troops I have a number of Drags aka Draggs. These tunes seem to start with with short sections that suggest bugle calls. I strongly suspect that these tunes are indeed used for marches past of forces of the sizes of troops and dragoons, respectively.

I'm not so sure about the fermata being for emphasis, in this case though.  I have a tune where they are clearly acting as segni but where signed ...unusually!

I am inclined to describe them as they appear and list both possibilities unless you think better.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on February 19, 2019, 09:04:08 PM
I wouldn't worry about the inverted fermata, on that note at least.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols says a fermata is placed "above or below" the note
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermata-definition-2701038 - seems to suggest it applies to the lower note if there are two notes in the same time position.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 19, 2019, 09:45:16 PM
...we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".

Just to make the waters a bit muddier, as well as Troops I have a number of Drags aka Draggs. These tunes seem to start with with short sections that suggest bugle calls. I strongly suspect that these tunes are indeed used for marches past of forces of the sizes of troops and dragoons, respectively.

I'm not so sure about the fermata being for emphasis, in this case though.  I have a tune where they are clearly acting as segni but where signed ...unusually!

I am inclined to describe them as they appear and list both possibilities unless you think better.
A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 19, 2019, 10:36:24 PM
I wouldn't worry about the inverted fermata, on that note at least.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols says a fermata is placed "above or below" the note
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermata-definition-2701038 - seems to suggest it applies to the lower note if there are two notes in the same time position.

fwiw, there are two fermata (one above and  one below) and one note.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on February 20, 2019, 12:25:46 AM
fwiw, there are two fermata (one above and  one below) and one note.

Yes, I know. I was implying that you can ignore the inverted one as redundant, as it's not covered by any common rule of musical notation.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 20, 2019, 11:51:11 AM
Here in the UK, unlike over the pond, we do not have a folk memory of fife & drum bands,...we don't
really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are etc...

I just found an interesting if slightly speculative 'timetable' of when these things would be played. The
emphasis seems to be on the practices of Washington's Revolutionary army, and on drummers, but fifes
are mentioned...

http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/CRFD6.htm (http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/CRFD6.htm)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 20, 2019, 12:39:41 PM
Having been booked some years back, to dance at the English Heritage weekend, we went from the normal Morris home of a folk festival into the unknown world of historical enactors.
Having seen legions of Roman Centurians, hefted a pike from a Roundhead and met everyone from WWII German U Boat commander to Saxon peasants, I'm sure there are historical groups in this country of a similar mind to the enactors across the pond
Q

Ps... try typing the above into a smart phone.
My predictive text has had a melt down  ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on February 20, 2019, 03:26:03 PM
I have an old friend who is a folk music enthusiast, historical reenactor (Napoleonic period etc etc), specialist in military history and curator of a Regimental museum. I was due to see him last week and planned to pick his brains on this subject over several beers but as I was struck down with the dreaded lurgi I couldn't. If he doesn't know about the subject, he is bound to know who does...will update in due course !

J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 20, 2019, 09:51:11 PM
N:NB1 There appears to be an upside down fermata against this note [the A in bar 2]
N:NB2 There is a word written underneath this note which is difficult to decipher [the D in bar 8] but may read "Note" or may not.
N:The intentions of the fermata and the written instruction are unclear but may indicate some kind of D.S.
Here's some close-ups in case they help. Looking more like Roll to me than Note.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 20, 2019, 10:41:57 PM
A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.
Hi - Decided to ask my Drum Major friend, Ross Flowers of the Drums of the Crown Forces, here in Canada. Not sure if it clarifies or muddles, but here's his answer:

"Well its not really a paradiddle

A drag is a beat on the drum - two strokes on one had and a single stroke on the other
A double drag as its name implies is beaten together, with the opposite hands involved

There are however drum beatings that are called “Single Drag” and “Double Drag”.  They are more involved that just the simple beat

A paradiddle consists of four beats of the drum, such as RLRR or LRLL"
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 20, 2019, 10:49:34 PM
Again - I asked Ross Flowers, Drum Major of the Drums of the Crown Forces (https://www.drums1812.org/aboutus). Not only did he send an answer about "Troop" but says the Drums of the Crown Forces will be in the Cardiff and London in September and he'd would love to meet you folk.

"A Troop is a signal, usually with fife and drum, to call soldiers together. Some Troops are used as a signal for the regiment to assemble on the parade ground. Some, and I think this is in reference to a Short Troop, is to signal the calling together of those forming the Guard."
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 21, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.
Hi - Decided to ask my Drum Major friend, Ross Flowers of the Drums of the Crown Forces, here in Canada. Not sure if it clarifies or muddles, but here's his answer:

"Well its not really a paradiddle

A drag is a beat on the drum - two strokes on one had and a single stroke on the other
A double drag as its name implies is beaten together, with the opposite hands involved

There are however drum beatings that are called “Single Drag” and “Double Drag”.  They are more involved that just the simple beat

A paradiddle consists of four beats of the drum, such as RLRR or LRLL"

Sorry about that. I was speaking sloppily as a non-drummer, meaning some sort of rattletattle on the drum. Am I going to be in trouble for misusing rattletattle?  :P ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 21, 2019, 02:33:03 AM
Sorry about that. I was speaking sloppily as a non-d
rummer, meaning some sort of rattletattle on the drum. Am I going to be in trouble for misusing rattletattle?
Definite not in trouble. (:)   Just really, really glad you have taken this project on. Ross, me and many others
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 21, 2019, 10:39:15 AM
Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 21, 2019, 10:58:48 AM
Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q
I think it is a 'segno' sign. There are two of them, which appear to have been added to the MS subsequently in a different hand, pen and ink, possibly to correct a missing section of music.  I think in this case the idea is that you play through until you get to the second segno sign then jump back to the first segno sign and play from there, continuing on to the end (with normal repeats as shown).

In an ABC transcription you could use the !segno! instruction to indicate each sign; also add a explanatory note in the N: field.
It will probably confuse an ABC playback device but unfortunately the user will have to live with it. The important thing is to get the transcription done rather than worry too much about the niceties of playback.   
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 21, 2019, 11:05:15 AM
Thanks Steve, another thing to add to my growing knowledge!
Yes there are two, as you rightly say.
OK. Will include notation and make a note as suggested.
Thank you
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 21, 2019, 11:56:18 AM
Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q

Definitely segni (IMHO). I have had a similar scoring. The second segno is, effectively, a D.S. instruction. In the example I had, the segni were slightly different to each other, wrt the position of the dots. Don't know if that had any significance or just the way it came out.

I coded the first one !segno! and the second one !D.S.! and noted the original form shown the MS.
Possibly significantly, my example had an associated !fermata! which seems to act as a Fine. Did you notice this? Mine would have not made sense without it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 21, 2019, 12:16:11 PM
Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
I've made notes in the N: section and hope Chris will sort them out when he gets my notations. 
I work on the principal that my musical knowledge isn't great, but if I can transpose accurately and draw Chris's attention to the points I don't understand, that will make his life a lot easier. I hope!
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 21, 2019, 12:27:05 PM
Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
I've made notes in the N: section and hope Chris will sort them out when he gets my notations. 
I work on the principal that my musical knowledge isn't great, but if I can transpose accurately and draw Chris's attention to the points I don't understand, that will make his life a lot easier. I hope!
cheers
Q

 :D (:) :Ph
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 21, 2019, 12:46:12 PM
Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
Q

That's yer man  (:) Just the same as mine.

The fermata is associated with the two segni, though. You play to the second one, go back to the first and play to the fermata.

[Edit. Ah! It's The Fall Of Paris. One of my  favourite tunes and another copied straight from Aird's  Vol 6.
I used to play it a lot. Sounds great on the melodeon. Time to revive it, I think. It was the "Lilly Marlene" of the Napoleonic wars. Every side played it. It's associated  "A Ciera!" A song of the French revolution. The words, concern stringing aristocrats from lamp posts. It was reputed to have been sung at the storming of the Bastille. Apparently the triumphant allied armies started playing it when they marched into Paris but Wellington ordered them to stop because he thought it would upset the ruling classes! Made them play "Croppies Lie Down" (a good oppressive number) instead.]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 21, 2019, 01:26:01 PM
Oh ok thanks Greg.
Will go back and see what I've done in my notation.
Cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 21, 2019, 02:11:46 PM
One incidental further remark, fwiw. The Buttrey setting and the Aird's setting aren't quite identical. The notes are the same, but the repeat is different, in Aird's he intstruction is D.C., not D.S.. In other words, it goes back to the beginning, not to an intermediate segno. Maybe the band played it like this, so he changed it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 21, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
For anyone interested, Aird's Airs are available for free here. They seem to be the source of a number of Buttrey's tunes. It seems likely that he either had access to vol. 6 or to a source that took the tunes from Aird's vol. 6.

https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)

Argh! the link doesn't work. I'll be back.
I'm back. It works if I copy and paste it into the address bar thingummy jig rather than just click on it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on February 21, 2019, 03:03:47 PM
Here's the embedded link to the IMSLP page (https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)).

For some reason, pasting a direct link seems to miss out the final bracket in the URL.  ???
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 21, 2019, 03:19:46 PM
[Edit. Ah! It's The Fall Of Paris...Is associated  "A Ciera!" A song of the French revolution....It was reputed to have been sung at the storming of the Bastille...]

...and at the town where Napoleon made his first public declaration as Emperor, after his
escape from Elba - at least if the film 'Waterloo' is to be believed...

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 21, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Thanks Steve

Just for interest, here's Mikie Smythe playing The Downfall of Paris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF8uHVu4Res
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on February 21, 2019, 03:52:46 PM
For anyone interested, Aird's Airs are available for free here. They seem to be the source of a number of Buttrey's tunes. It seems likely that he either had access to vol. 6 or to a source that took the tunes from Aird's vol. 6.

https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)

Argh! the link doesn't work. I'll be back.
I'm back. It works if I copy and paste it into the address bar thingummy jig rather than just click on it.

For those who don't already know, I have a page on Folkopedia that is a list of the whereabouts of known publications, with links to them if available, and links to where/if they've been ABC'd , in the case of Aird it's been done by Jack Campin.
http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/List_of_historical_tunebooks,_some_of_which_are_available_on_the_internet (http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/List_of_historical_tunebooks,_some_of_which_are_available_on_the_internet)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on February 22, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
Don't want to go off topic but...evidently the first manuals on how to play fife and drum were published in 1817 by Samuel Potter - drum major of the Coldstream Guards. Facsimile copies seem to be available on line.
And there is a mention of Potter publishing a book of Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps in 1800 (anyone heard of this?)
Now I'd really like to know what was on the playlist at the famous pre Waterloo ball in Brussels...and who played ! (I gather that the regimental band of the 33rd(which became the Duke of Wellingtons regt) were mostly German during this period and unfortunately had gone back home before the Waterloo campaign.
Research continues...

J
Ps Buttrey was in 34th regiment which eventually became Border regiment which has a regimental museum in Carlisle I believe. They too might well not know about the ms.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 22, 2019, 03:56:41 PM
1) ...the first manuals on how to play fife and drum were published in 1817 by Samuel Potter...

2) ...Facsimile copies seem to be available on line....And there is a mention of Potter publishing a book
of Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps in 1800 (anyone heard of this?)...

1) Thompson's and Bennett's fife tutors (see below) seem to have been published in 1760
and 1767 respectively? (Or did you mean the first manuals for fife and drum together?)

2) I found this: http://corpsofdrums.com/downloads/ (http://corpsofdrums.com/downloads/) which contains photocopies of several
fife manuals, including Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife (discussed here, and which
I just ABC'd). There is a slightly later Compleat Tutor for the Fife, by Bennett, which contains
~47 tunes - many of which are duplicates of those in Thompson (which contains 85 tunes).
The frontispiece of the Bennett book is a cruder version of the frontispiece in Thompson,
and the music theory in the first few pages looks very similar. Looks like an 18th-century
rip-orf to me guv'nor!

It's perhaps worth noting that Thompson and Bennett are the publishers of these tutors,
not the authors - as far as I can see no author name is given - which makes sense, as they
are (presumably?) compilations of existing tunes.

No sign (so far) of a PD copy of Potter's Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps, though I suspect
that this: https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/28428013?q&versionId=34480778 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/28428013?q&versionId=34480778) may well be the
bibliographic information for this book? Interestingly (to a concertina player), the publisher
of this book is Wheatstone. The copyright information gives Potter's date of death as 1809,
whereas other sources indicate 1838. See: https://beafifer.com/potterfife.htm (https://beafifer.com/potterfife.htm).

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on February 22, 2019, 05:47:06 PM
Greetings to all of you who are so wonderfully working away on the Buttrey manuscript. My name is Ross Flowers. A retired lawyer in Toronto. However my hobby for many years has been as the Drum Major of The Drums Crown Forces, 1812. You can find our site at, drums1812.org. We have been using the Buttrey manuscript for many of our tunes for several years and I’ve had the good fortunate to visit with Sandra Cameron the owner of the manuscript to take photos of the music, some of those photos are what you are working from. I am more than happy to try to answer any of your questions about military music of the British army during the French Revolution/Napoleonic period. The world will be forever in your debt for helping to promote this wonderful collection of music used by the British Army during this period. Slainte
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 22, 2019, 06:41:18 PM
Welcome aboard Ross!
It's fantastic to think we have people across the pond ready to help us.
No doubt someone will lob a question at you shortly!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on February 22, 2019, 06:48:13 PM
I stand corrected, Roger, re Potter not being the first to write the manual - I should have dug deeper !
And hi to Ross - I think it's great how this project has developed - the whole story of the Buttrey manuscript is amazing and it's fantastic that some of the tunes are being kept alive and used by yourselves. (I don't know whether Napoleonic period reenactors over here are aware of the source but I for one am spreading the word )

Julian
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on February 22, 2019, 07:00:29 PM
1) I stand corrected, Roger, re Potter not being the first to write the manual - I should have dug deeper !...
2) ...it's great how this project has developed - the whole story of the Buttrey manuscript is amazing...
3) ...I don't know whether Napoleonic period reenactors over here are aware of the source but I for one
am spreading the word...

1) Aye, I just wasn't sure whether you were referring to a fife and drum manual - in which
case you may well be correct - some of the references in the corpsofdrums.com list are for
fife and drum manuals...

2) ...and all on a site dedicated to melodeons too  :o ...

3) Moi aussi! I sent a copy of my recent transcription of Thompson to the corpsofdrums, and
the intro page includes pointers to the Buttrey MS.

This is bad - very, very bad - I'm seriously thinking of buying a fife...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on February 22, 2019, 08:12:31 PM
Hi Again. Samuel Potter actually wrote 4 booklets/manuals. His first, which I believe has been referred to, was for 'Marches, Waltz's & Quicksteps" produced very early in the 19th century. It is unusual in that the pieces are composed for two fifes and a bugle. He then produced "The Art of Beating the Drum" and "The Art of Playing the Fife". The "system" identified in these manuals was officially adopted by the British Army in 1816 ordered by the Commander in Chief to be purchased and followed in each regiment. Finally he produced a similar book for the bugle. I'm sure this is way more information than you wanted. However I thought you might enjoy the context of Potter as it relates to the Buttrey manuscript. Prior to Potter's books,  there were no official manuals required to be followed throughout the army. While there were similarities in the "signal" there was nothing set down. Consequently, for the "signals" that are included in Buttrey, such as The Troops, Chuch Calls, Reveille's, etc., it really gives an insight into the plethora of music played. In addition the Marches, Quicksteps and dance tunes provide, IMHO, a revelation into the scope of music played in the Napoleonic Army.  Cheers
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 22, 2019, 09:03:05 PM
Hello Ross, nice to meet you (virtually speaking), I have a question, which has been bugging me a bit.
Am I right in thinking the first lines of some tunes are actually bugle calls?
e.g.,
A Short Troop. #732
Humphriss Troop. #731
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on February 23, 2019, 02:46:43 AM
Hi. No all of the tunes are intended to be played by the fife alone. The bugle (wiithout keys) had a limited number of notes it could play. While the keyed bugle came into use around 1812, the Buttrey manuscript was written several years prior to that. Hope that helps
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 23, 2019, 09:20:15 AM
Hi. No all of the tunes are intended to be played by the fife alone....

OK, thanks.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on February 23, 2019, 06:27:06 PM
Tune # 957 "My Mother Aye Glowering Oer Me" has written between the staves "pub by John Buttrey"  Ken Purvis has determined that this tune was in Volume 1 of Aird (1782) so does anyone have any idea what the "pub by" means?  It's the only such note in the ms.

https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-775-961/
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 24, 2019, 02:14:37 PM
Maybe it relates to the edit it is next to. I can't think of a word to fit, yet.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 24, 2019, 02:23:56 PM
'Published by John Buttrey' ??
That's what immediately came to my mind.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on February 24, 2019, 02:32:38 PM
'Published by John Buttrey' ??
That's what immediately came to my mind.
Q

yes, but I can't think why that would be apt
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on February 24, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Perhaps he was signifying this particular song was the one he's selected for publishing?
We seem to think this manuscript was his work book, some tunes noted from others, some not quite right for further work etc. so why not copy this particular song out onto another piece of paper and submit it for publishing.
Perhaps!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 01, 2019, 02:10:35 PM
I've just transcribed a tune with the title "A Short Troop", if fourty bars is a short one I'd hate to find a long 'un!

X:741
T:Short Troop. JBut.741, A
M:3/8
L:1/8
Q:1/8=140
K:G
|:d/c/|Bde|e2 c/A/|G/F/E/D/E/F/|G2 G|FAc|c/B/A/G/B/c/|def|g2:|
|:D|GBd|gdB|eee|e2e|dBG|FAc/B/|AAA|A2D|
GBG|EcA|FdF|Ged|dgd|eFA|GGG|G2:|
|:D|GGG|G2 B/G/|AAA|A2c|BGd|gec|ddd|d2:|
|:d|e/c/B/A/G/F/|GBd|EEE|E2 D/C/|B,DG|FAF|GGG|G2:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 02, 2019, 05:47:57 AM
I'm posting below a fairly lengthy extract from a message I had from the secretary of the Corps of Drums Society.
The book referred to is Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife which I have just finished transcribing and which
is now with CP for proof-reading and cleaning-up. In that sense, the extract is not immediately relevant to the
Buttrey project, but it's interesting in a context where it has been suggested that John Buttrey may have learned
some of his tunes from this tutor?

Quote
...As a society we are primarily concerned with the drum and flute Corps of Drums, which still survives (just) in English
and Welsh infantry battalions.  The instrumentation is based on the Army reforms of the 1860's when keys were added
to the fife,  making it a simple system flute, and the drums were reduced in size. This being so, the Drums and Fifes of
the 18th century is really before our period, but some of the traditions and tunes have survived.  It has always intrigued
me that there were separate English and "Scotch" duties.  Scots regiments were still issued with fifes/flutes into the late
19th century even though they were also allowed to have a limited number of pipes. 

Some of the tunes in the book are still in use.  The English "Reveilly" is also known as The Mother and Three Camps
(no-one knows why!) and is still played by Corps of Drums when Beating Reveille, which still happens very rarely.  The
same basic tune is also played faster as something called The Point of War (again no-one knows why) as a salute when
the Colour(s) are marched on or off parade and the Guard presents arms. This used to happen for Guard mounts and
dismounts at St. James's  Palace but it is now so rare for a Corps of Drums to be available for this duty that I haven't
heard it for years.  A version of the English Grenadiers March is played every year by the massed Bands at HM's Birthday
Parade (Trooping the Colour).  The Rogues March is still played occasionally.  The first part of Scipio is still used as a
General Salute, while the Coldstream or 2nd Regt of Guards March is still the Slow March of the Coldstream Guards
... 

An interesting insight into the world in which JB operated?

The italicised sentence is telling (my italics) - 200 years down the road, and this stuff is still current...

The tunes referred to are, of course, the versions in Thompson, though they may be present in Buttrey also?

Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on March 03, 2019, 02:29:10 PM
I might be getting carried away.
Whilst discussing the Buttrey ms with a friendly military historian and reenactor, I scanned through his copy of 'Songs and Music of the Redcoats' by Lewis Winstock and came upon a reference to the John Greenwood ms, dating from 1780 ish now in the archives of the New York Historical Society.
Greenwood was a fife major in the American War of Independence (on the winning side!) and acquired a tune book from a redcoat fifer. To quote Winstock 'the book is particularly interesting because it must be a true guide to what the band played and what the soldiers danced to...many of the tunes are completely unmilitary - minuets, hornpipes and the like...
And guess what, the Greenwood ms is available online through the NYHS digital archive - I have no idea whether this is a well known ms, and haven't had chance to do more than scan through the thirty or so tunes (I will post a link later in case of interest )
Winstock also refers to two other ms in the National Army Museum collection, Russell dating from 1812, and Newman from the 1850s, and one further in the Sutro Library San Francisco (wonder how it got there !) which belonged to a bandmaster in the Inniskilling Dragoons, and was compiled in 1797 .

Investigations continue...

J

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 03, 2019, 03:02:17 PM
Hi Julian, as far as I'm concerned you're not getting carried away, merely adding to the subject matter. I find it really interesting to learn the background to the manuscripts.
Also, could we be finding similar manuscripts to notate?

With respect to the last manuscript in San Francisco: Looking at the origins of the bandmaster and where he finished up, perhaps we're into Irish famine/California Goldrush era?
Yes a wild set of assumptions, but....
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on March 03, 2019, 05:55:16 PM
The manuscripts you refer to are already listed on my page here http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/Tune_Manuscripts_List (http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/Tune_Manuscripts_List), but if you come across any more, or more information on any of them, then it's a Wiki, you can either join on your own account or report them to me.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on March 03, 2019, 06:34:19 PM
Roger, interesting response from the Corps of Drums Society. BTW the reference to The Point of War is because the Mother and Three Camps was also used as a signal to "fix bayonets" before a charge. As the pace of the charge increased, so did the beating.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 04, 2019, 10:31:05 AM
Roger, interesting response from the Corps of Drums Society. BTW the reference to The Point of War is because the Mother and Three Camps was also used as a signal to "fix bayonets" before a charge. As the pace of the charge increased, so did the beating.

Thank you. I'll pass that on.

Roger
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 04, 2019, 10:47:28 AM
Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 04, 2019, 11:04:21 AM
Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on March 04, 2019, 12:24:17 PM
Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here

I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on March 04, 2019, 03:56:58 PM
Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here

I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

J
Me too. The link from my page worked yesterday and doesn't now. I've changed it to http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/ (http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/) (go to the search box and ask for "Music Book"). Yesterday it took forever to load the pages, so maybe they'll fix it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on March 04, 2019, 04:42:18 PM
Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 04, 2019, 05:43:47 PM
I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all
the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

I tried 'pages' too, and simply got a black page with no content. Just found an electronic
mail address for the webmaster - message sent...

Edit 3 days later: Still can't scroll through the book proper. I tried 'pages' again, and
this time I could see the images - thumbnails only, though - too small to be able to read
(or transcribe) properly. No response from NYHS which is a pity, the list of tunes looks
interesting but the images are too small to use for (reliable?) transcription...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on March 04, 2019, 09:04:43 PM
From Chris Partington: "I think it would be a better idea to just attribute VMP in the individual tunes, which I think you had done for some of them, since several hands may add titles. I have no objection to your recognising the transcribers as a group though."

I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about

If you have not submitted your transcriptions to Chris yet, then I may not know your name. If more names appear, I will add them to the About page. (or you can give me your name)

A huge "Thank you" to all of you for so wholeheartedly jumping in and doing this marvellous work. And a special "Thanks" to Chris for organizing this, adding all your expertise to the transcriptions and allowing this to happen. The world will be a better place for it.

Sandy
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on March 04, 2019, 09:57:50 PM
Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html)
Looking quickly at Vol 1 and 2, found the following had the same tunes (not identical by any stretch) Others had same name but not same tune. Note how early they appear in the Buttrey ms.
#9  Dusty Miller
#35 Sir Roger De Coverley
#75 Sukey Bids Me
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on March 04, 2019, 11:46:42 PM
Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html)
Looking quickly at Vol 1 (1751-1757) and 2 (1758-1765), found the following had the same tunes (not identical by any stretch) Others had same name but not same tune. Note how early they appear in the Buttrey ms.
#9  Dusty Miller (vol 2)
#35 Sir Roger De Coverley (vol 2)
#75 Sukey Bids Me (vol 1)
#110 Flowers of Edinburgh (vol 1)
#404 Butter'd Pease (vol 2)
Sorry to confuse everyone, I clicked the wrong link. I was looking at Thompson's "Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances" Vols 1 - 4, 1751-80. It's interesting too. Will look at the proper link later.

Back again - just looked at Volumes 3 (1766-1772) and 4 (1773-1780). You may be better at this than me, but I didn't find any tunes with same name and tune as in Buttrey. So speculating again (well it's fun), the original creator of the ms left England before vol 3 and 4 were published? (Note: Someone before Buttrey saw the Battle of St. Kitts (1783) and Battle of the Nile (1798)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 05, 2019, 12:17:18 AM
...So speculating again (well it's fun), the original creator of the ms left England before vol 3 and 4 were published? (Note: Someone before Buttrey saw the Battle of St. Kitts (1783) and Battle of the Nile (1798)

I know that a number of the tunes I transcribed are almost certainly from Aird's Airs vol. 6, published in 1801. These are much later contributions.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on March 05, 2019, 12:54:05 AM
Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html)
Looking at the correct ms, I found some that appear Buttrey. Of course, I can only go by tune titles then check to see if they are the same tune. Someone who knows the tunes would know if the Troops and Reveillys match. Here are the named tunes that match:
#14 Grenadier’s March (Buttrey #66)
#28 Scotch Reveille (Buttrey #51)
#45 Prince Eugene’s March (Buttrey #74)
#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)
#76 The New Coldstream March (Buttrey #684)
Again, mostly at the beginning of the ms.

[Ed. "Same tune" as in the same or similar melody, not as in exact copies.  (Many, many tunes in Buttrey have the same titles as those elsewhere but completely different tunes.]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 05, 2019, 11:29:50 AM

Looking at the correct ms, I found some that appear Buttrey.
#14 Grenadier’s March (Buttrey #66)
#28 Scotch Reveille (Buttrey #51)
#45 Prince Eugene’s March (Buttrey #74)
#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)
#76 The New Coldstream March (Buttrey #684)
Again, mostly at the beginning of the ms.

I don't think No. 684 fits the pattern of the earlier tunes. I think it's a direct copy of Aird's vol 6, 1881. No. 166, The Coldstream March.
Two reasons:
1. The title is the same as Aird's (absence of "New")
2. Although the Thompson and Aird's setting have exactly the same notes, the beaming (arrangement of notes on the page) differs. Where there are 4 quavers in a row Thompson beams in groups of four.  Buttrey and Aird's beam in groups of two.

This doesn't affect your theory, though. It just adds more support to the "different authors at different times" theory
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 05, 2019, 12:41:46 PM
...Here are the named tunes that match:
...#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)

It doesn't look to me like Thompson's Tutor is the direct source of this in the Buttrey manuscript, I'm afraid.

There are a number of phrasing marks in Buttrey that are absent in Thompson's. Even more telling is the fact that there are a melodic or rhyhmic variations in nearly every bar.
e.g., cf. Buttrey and Thompson's bar 4.
 
Given the nature of the differences and the fact that they exist in nearly every bar,  I think this seems to come from it being a slightly different setting, not from a copying error.

It's worth noting that later entries that I attribute to being sourced from Aird's are identical in every respect, down to perpetuated unique nuances that don't appear in other publications, though that may just be different approaches from different contributors.

It's possible the the tune was learned from the Fife Tutor and that the variations developed in playing, which is absolutely normal for modern folk musicians, though that may, or may not, have been the case for military musicians in the late 18thC and early 19thC, but I think it's worth looking for  a source that is closer to Buttrey's MS, for it to qualify as the direct source.

I'll take a gander at the other tunes you identify and see if the same thing applies.

[Edit: I've checked the rest and they all differ substantially from the Buttrey notation, I'm afraid.

It's well worth looking at the other available publications for the actual source, though they may have been learned by ear from the playing of the rest of the band, I suppose.]

[Edit: I don't know if Steve D identified any other sources for the tunes he transcribed]
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 05, 2019, 03:30:15 PM
I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about (http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about)

Sandy


I get an error when following this link?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 05, 2019, 05:02:52 PM
I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about (http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about)

Sandy
I get error when following this link?
I too get an error, however, after a pause, it then kicks in and displays the appropriate page. I think
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about (http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about) may be an 'alias' for the full URL?
I think the full URL is https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/about/ (https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/about/).
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on March 07, 2019, 03:33:55 PM
Regarding a possible relationship between the Buttrey manuscript and Thompson's Tutor, one of the things my group has learned is that a tune with the same name can be arranged differently over time. Also, some tunes can fall out of popularity over time and sometimes be brought back but with a slightly different arrangement. Remember Thompson's appears in 1765 whereas Buttrey is thought to have been created somewhere around the turn of the 19th century. As noted by at least one of your contributors, there are similarities in tunes and arrangements between Buttrey and Aird which are essentially contemporaries of one another. There is also sometimes a difference between British arrangements and American ones of the same tune. For example, Buttrey's tune "A General Toast" appears in several American publications as "Here's to the Maiden of Bashful Fifteen" but with a slightly different rhythm. It has taken us some time but we now try to focus on sources for arrangments that are most contemporary and appropriate for what we do. Hope this helps some.

Ross
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on March 08, 2019, 03:37:02 AM
Sorry folks I goofed. The General Toast is in Aird, vol 3, not Buttrey
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on March 08, 2019, 10:24:06 AM
When playing for the dance "Buttered Peas" I use the tune "Marmalade Polka". I wonder if "General Toast" would fit in there to complete the theme ? :||:
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on March 08, 2019, 05:47:51 PM
Could be a fun sett
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 09, 2019, 08:41:01 PM
When playing for the dance "Buttered Peas" I use the tune "Marmalade Polka". I wonder if "General Toast" would fit in there to complete the theme ? :||:

And Coffee and Tea followed by a sit on the man's knee?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 09, 2019, 08:53:48 PM
I was thinking more "tea for two"!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 11, 2019, 10:38:42 AM
This is by way of being a (continuing) side-bar to the main thread.

The Greenwood(*) MS was mentioned a short while back:

http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up (http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up)

As far as I can see, this MS has not been ABC'd so far (if you think I am wrong, please let me know where I
can find it - ta!).

On the basis that it hasn't been transcribed before, I have now captured images of this MS and am (slowly)
transcribing it.

The attached image of page 4 shows an example of musical notation which I am not sure about. There is a
vertical line of four dots across the staff in the second line of music, and a similar line of four dots at the very
end (I would expect to see only two dots here if it were an 'ordinary' end-repeat). The only way I can sensibly
interpret this is as meaning everything between the two lines of dots is to be repeated. The only way I can
see how to write this down in ABC is:

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Come haste to the Wedding, JGrw.05
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:120
K:D
[| A | AFA Aaf | {f/}ede fdB | AFA "^NB1"B/c/dF | EEE E2 A | AFA Aaf |
ede fdB | .AFA "^NB1"B/c/dF | DDD D2 |] |: A | AFA Aaf | ede fdB | AFA
BdF | EEE E2 A | AFA Aaf | ede fdB | AFA faf | ddd d2 |] [| a |
afa afa | bgb bgb | afa agf | eee e3 | a3 g3 |
ede fdB | AFA faf | ddd d2 :|

Any comments, suggestions?

Thank you.

Roger.

(*)Sigh - I never can leave well enough alone...
The potted biography of John Greenwood at the web site cited above mentions that he later became
a dentist in New York.

This URL:

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-07-02-0210 (https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-07-02-0210)

is a letter from George Washington to a dentist named - John Greenwood. There appears to be more
correspondence between Washington and Greenwood which I will certainly be looking at later. Is it a
co-incidence? Surely it's the same man? I wonder...
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 11, 2019, 11:04:43 AM
That’s just an old fashioned way of indicating a standard repeat as far as I am aware.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on March 11, 2019, 12:19:05 PM
That’s just an old fashioned way of indicating a standard repeat as far as I am aware.

Thank you sir! That's the 'obvious' interpretation, I just thought it was worth checking.

Roger.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 11, 2019, 02:07:12 PM
Advice please:
I'm transcribing tune 936 here.....
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-775-961/

The third line down in the photo shows the end of the A/start of the B music.
Above the first two bars is a tie and underneath the tie, is written something that I read as 'Bis'
Wozzat?
yours
Confused of Devon  ;)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 11, 2019, 02:10:31 PM
….and looking further, now I've started to notate, I realise they are 'half bars', i.e. contain half a set of notes I'd expect, if you see what I mean.
Q
even more confused  (:)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on March 11, 2019, 02:47:54 PM
Advice please:
I'm transcribing tune 936 here.....
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-775-961/

The third line down in the photo shows the end of the A/start of the B music.
Above the first two bars is a tie and underneath the tie, is written something that I read as 'Bis'
Wozzat?
yours
Confused of Devon  ;)

Just to cheer you up, did you notice there are 11 bars in the B part?
I wondered about "trio", but I'm not convinced.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 11, 2019, 03:04:54 PM
I haven't checked it through properly, I'll do that when I have an answer to 'Bis'.
I wondered if it meant 'repeat these notes' to make up the bar 's worth of notes.
'Tis a mystery!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on March 11, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
Bis is (well, was) a standard way of saying "twice", so those half bars become full bars. As to length of B music, with those two "Bis" it looks like 12 bars, i.e. perfectly OK.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 11, 2019, 04:38:08 PM
Thanks Chris, that was my guess as it then makes perfect sense!
thank you....
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: playandteach on March 11, 2019, 10:58:57 PM
In concerts abroad sometimes it sounds like they're booing, when they are chanting 'bis' - similar in that context to encore. I can't off the top of my head remember which country. Europe, but I can't remember more than that. Should be easy to find out.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 12, 2019, 08:49:30 AM
Good heavens, thanks for that. I had no idea.
I seem to be learning an amazingly varied range of things from notating this manuscript!
Thanks again.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 12, 2019, 11:09:56 AM
Look forward to the day that you look at a tune you've never seen before and you start humming it before attempting the transcription.  8)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 12, 2019, 12:46:44 PM
It's a way off, but I'm learning a lot.
Which is excellent!
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 20, 2019, 02:27:08 PM
OK, I think I have come up against 'My Tune', number 955.
There's lot's of 'Bis's' everywhere and a mid change of tempo which is keeping me on my toes.

But... I'm in mid-transposing, using abcexplorer.
If I type ' :| ' to end the bar, press 'enter' to go down a line, and type ' |: ' to start the next part, no script appears on the screen.
If I delete the 'enter' so the bar lies are ' :|  |: ' and type, the script appears on the screen
Instead of 4 bars per line I'm way past that. Something's not right.

I seem to not be able to go below line 25 in the left hand margin. Is there a size on the number of lines somewhere that I need to change?
I need to get this sorted before all my 'Bis's' can make sense!!
cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on March 20, 2019, 03:06:16 PM
When you start a new line with |: after ending the previous line with :| you will find that the |: on the new line disappears onto the end of the preceding line ( :||: ), until such time as you add the first note of the new line i.e. |:d - then the score rights itself. This is ABC Explorer specific.


You may have a different problem of course!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 20, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
Thanks Pete, yes aware of that one.
I think I have another problem!
It really does feel like there's a line limit of 25 lines......
Confused of Devon
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on March 20, 2019, 03:44:13 PM
ahhhh got it!!!!
Something Pete has told me about before but I forgot...…
On the score view box, as I type, along the top line is a '1' in a box.
this is *page 1*
If I toggle it to 2 the rest of the score appears.
Duhhhh.

Sorry peeps, this tune is not only long, but has all the hiccups rolled into one!
Phew. This calls for a celebratory cuppa....
slurp
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on April 06, 2019, 09:40:32 AM
The transcriptions are nearly all back to me now, and at least half a dozen of you are short of work (haha - as I like to think of it!), so I'm at the tidying up loose ends stage.
I've already handed out one small group of tunes that weren't going to get finished soon, but I have found one of the original volunteers who hasn't even started yet and who would like to pass the batch back.
So there are 47 tunes to be divided up among however many of you step into the breach. i.e. if six volunteer then it's merely six tunes each.
Then I can have it finished for Easter.
Replies by PM or email please if you would like some, or even if you would not then I will know how many to hand out.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 06, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
I'm still finishing my third batch, Chris, but it won't be long before they're done.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on April 06, 2019, 02:16:08 PM
Just in case my email didn't get through ( experiencing 'lost' emails occasionally...)
I immediately replied to Chris to say I'm up for it.
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on April 10, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
...I immediately replied to Chris to say I'm up for it...
Moi aussi, and while downloading the required page images today, I also downloaded the ABC code
for the first batch of tunes in which the first and second parts have been combined:

http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/ButtHarmonies1+2partsCombined.abc

I just listened to them. I am simply blown away by these two-part tunes - even when played back via
a grotty MIDI player, they are absolute magic!!!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on April 11, 2019, 06:38:05 PM
Question for the hive mind. I have a tune notated in 2 sharps, ending on D in both parts. The two Cs in the tune are accidental naturals, so it's really a tune in one sharp, I'm thinking the key is D mixolydian.

I've transcribed it as written, in two sharps. Should I just leave it alone, should I add a comment about the key, or change it to Dmix and remove the natural signs from the Cs?

Here 'tis: A good tune, perhaps best left as is?

X:757
T:Miss Corbet's Reel. JBut.757
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/4=140
K:D
|:A|D/D/D FD ADFD|E=cGc EccE|D/D/D FD ADFD|BdAd FDD:|
|:g|fdag fddf|e=cgf ecce|fdag fdec|dBAd FEEg|
fdag fddf|e=cgf ecce|dfeg fagb|afge fdd:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 11, 2019, 06:44:51 PM
it's really a tune in one sharp, I'm thinking the key is D mixolydian.

I've transcribed it as written, in two sharps. Should I just leave it alone, should I add a comment about the key, or change it to Dmix and remove the natural signs from the Cs?

Here 'tis: A good tune, perhaps best left as is?
f|e=cgf ecce|dfeg fagb|afge fdd:|

Are you playing the tune? If so, does it work with A major chords? If so, two sharps is right and they are accidentals. If it needs C major  and A minor to work it's in the mixolydian key. I'd notate it accordingly. If it works with both I would leave it as is and make a note about it.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: smiley on April 11, 2019, 11:45:49 PM
Pete, the tune looks like it could've been copied directly from Airds Selection of Scotch English Irish and Foreign Airs vol. 5 published in 1797 - including the odd key signature.  See https://www.tunearch.org/wiki/Miss_Corbett%27s_Reel (https://www.tunearch.org/wiki/Miss_Corbett%27s_Reel)

It seems sensible to notate the tune as Dmix (i.e. one sharp) to improve its legibility. The tune is an interesting prescursor to a popular reel called The College Grove (a three part tune nowadays).
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on April 12, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Agreed, Dmix, with a NB somewhere to indicate the change.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on April 12, 2019, 04:50:54 PM
Did that Chris. Check your email, I just sent my last batch.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 19, 2019, 09:58:39 AM
I am going through my last transcriptions trying to resolve things I don't understand and I am stumped by the attached bit of score.
Two things:-
What is the symbol above the last note of  first bar?
What is is the symbol at the end that looks a bit like a semi-breve A, but isn't?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on April 19, 2019, 10:06:03 AM
Looking at it from a non-musical point of view, the first one looks (to me) as if it has been printed on the paper at the same time as the lines, and therefore nothing to do with the actual music.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on April 19, 2019, 12:14:22 PM
I am going through my last transcriptions trying to resolve things I don't understand and I am stumped by the attached bit of score.
Two things:-
What is the symbol above the last note of  first bar?
What is is the symbol at the end that looks a bit like a semi-breve A, but isn't?
Looking at it in the context of the whole tune page facsimile, I am pretty much of the same view as Edward. But I think the first marking above the last note of the first bar is spurious, possibly just the remnant of some previous text which had only been partially erased.
The symbol at the end like a semibreve A is almost certainly an artifact of the printing/penmanship. It's not a note or musical symbol at all.

I think you can safely ignore both markings in your transcription.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 19, 2019, 02:26:15 PM
I am sure you're right

Here's a present for Winston and anyone  else interested. It's another Buttrey tune.

X:11
T:Hymn For Easter Day
Z:vmp.2019.Greg Bradfield-Smith.
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/4=110
K:D
D2F2A2D2|G2(G/A/)B (B2A2)|FGAD G2FG|(F2E2)D4:|
|:G2A2B2A2|G2F2E4|(FGAD) G2 FG|(F2E2)D4:|
|:c2d2(c/d/)e A2|d2d2 e/f/f e2|(cdeA) d2cd|c2B2A4:|
|:(AB) cAd2F2|G2(G/A/)B B2A2|(dcdA) (B/c/) e2|d2c2d4:|
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on April 19, 2019, 02:47:29 PM
Thanks, Greg!

It's the tune 'Easter Hymn', composer Anonymous, used for 'Christ the Lord is Risen Today' (sometimes given as Jesus Christ is Risen Today); words by Charles Wesley. Stirring stuff!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Winston Smith on April 19, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Thanks to both of you! I'd have never worked out what it was, and it's one of my favourite easter hymns. We'll be singing it come Sunday, I imagine
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on April 20, 2019, 09:28:51 AM
Thanks, Greg!

It's the tune 'Easter Hymn', composer Anonymous, used for 'Christ the Lord is Risen Today' (sometimes given as Jesus Christ is Risen Today); words by Charles Wesley. Stirring stuff!

Thanks  for the aka information, Steve. I had a Catholic upbringing. We didn't sing this, so I would never have known.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on April 20, 2019, 10:38:13 AM
...What is the symbol above the last note of  first bar?...
I'm probably raving (I blame Dunham Brewery!!!), but could it possibly be a badly formed tr (!trill!
in ABC)?

I clearly haven't put my brains in the 'right way up' this morning, but I'm missing summat here - is this
from a tune in the Buttrey MS? Which one? Ta.
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Steve_freereeder on April 20, 2019, 11:32:49 AM
...What is the symbol above the last note of  first bar?...
I'm probably raving (I blame Dunham Brewery!!!), but could it possibly be a badly formed tr (!trill!
in ABC)?
I wondered if it was a trill too, but decided against it in the end (a) because it doesn't match trill markings elsewhere in the same manuscript hand and (b) because in the context of the entire tune, it's an odd place for a trill to be, especially as there are no other trill markings in equivalent places in the tune.

Quote
I clearly haven't put my brains in the 'right way up' this morning, but I'm missing summat here - is this
from a tune in the Buttrey MS? Which one? Ta.
It's in the 'tunes without numbers' section at the bottom of the index. Page 51.
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/unnumbered-melodies/
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on April 21, 2019, 06:08:43 AM
...It's in the 'tunes without numbers' section at the bottom of the index. Page 51.
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/unnumbered-melodies/

Ah! I hadn't clocked the un-numbered tunes. Thank you!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on May 02, 2019, 12:46:27 AM
What is the symbol above the last note of  first bar?
What is is the symbol at the end that looks a bit like a semi-breve A, but isn't?
Sorry, thought you folks had stopped writing on this forum so haven't looked in a long while. The ink of the first mark looks more like the ink of the title than that of the notes so maybe added by that person. (The titles continue in the ms with one penmanship when the notes change so titles may have been added later.)
The second mark is the same ink as the stave so probably done by that person when he made the staves. He sometimes scribbles in empty staves to show they are empy ?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Ross Flowers on May 03, 2019, 12:51:48 AM
Hi Folks. The link that Chris has on his Bits and Bobs page to all the wonderful work you are doing on the Buttrey manuscript, appears to be broken. Are any of you able to contact Chris directly?
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 03, 2019, 07:49:07 AM
Yes, we're all able to keep in contact with him as are you through this forum.
If you want to privately contact him then look him up in the 'members' tab or go back through this thread to his last post, below his picture avatar either will give options to contact him. One option is a personal message, which opens up your messages on the forum and let's you message him directly.
Cheers
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Anahata on May 03, 2019, 09:15:21 AM
Chris has had all the transcriptions in for a couple of weeks, so I'd guess he's done corrections and checking and is preparing to put the finished product on his site.

Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on May 04, 2019, 08:50:41 AM
Thank you so much to each and every one of you. Over here, we can still hardly believe that you have taken on this project and put so much heart, knowledge and diligence into transcribing the manuscript. Current and future musicians will be indebted to you forever.

I wish I could do more than just say, "Thank You" but I can't really get my head around the logistics of sending you each squares and pastries.

Thank you, thank you. We wanted this music to become available to all who would enjoy it or find it historically interesting and you have made that more than possible by providing both PDFs and abc files. You are a very special group of musicians. Thank you once more.

Sandy Cameron
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 04, 2019, 09:31:33 AM
In return I want to thank you Sandra for allowing us access to such a wonderful and valuable personal document.
I feel very privileged to have been able to be part of the team that's taken on this transcription. Having you there supporting and helping us has been a wonderful bonus.
best wishes
Q
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Julian S on May 04, 2019, 10:13:37 AM
A great cooperative effort - congrats to all concerned.

Now to explore and learn some of the tunes ! (Can I get Shropshire Militia Hornpipe to performance level for Monday... ::)

J
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Roger Hare on May 04, 2019, 01:08:29 PM
...I feel very privileged to have been able to be part of the team that's taken on this transcription...
Hear, hear! It's an especial privilege for some-one like me who is a 'newcomer' to music. I've
learned a lot.(*) I enjoyed the whole exercise so much that I did Thompson's Compleat Fife
Tutor
(see below) which I don't think had been transcribed before, and am now tackling (at
least) two other late-18th century MSS - one of which was mentioned in the Buttrey thread,
one which wasn't - weeks (if not months!) of work ahead (:)  - still, it keeps me out of the
public houses  :D

(*) With help from other readers of this thread - you know who you are - thank you, folks!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on May 05, 2019, 04:46:08 PM
Thank you to all the volunteers, and to Sandra for the work she has put into caring for the manuscript and the website in the first place. Yay! It's all done now, and available here :- http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html (http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 05, 2019, 05:01:32 PM
Well done all!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Thrupenny Bit on May 05, 2019, 07:48:39 PM
Excellent !!!
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: Sandra Cameron on June 20, 2019, 06:02:49 PM
Should anyone happen to be playing #758, what we had thought was "The Rakes of Westmouth Trill" is actually "The Rakes of Westmeath Irish" with the old "f" for "s" and Westmeath being a county in Ireland.

One of the researchers has been doing extensive work on the ms with regards to its dating and will be sharing this info with us and in a presentation in a month or so. I look forward to sharing this with you. (He mentioned the "Irish".)
Title: Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
Post by: ChrisP on June 21, 2019, 07:51:00 PM
Thanks Sandra. We'd already spotted that and entered the "alternative" spelling!
Btw, there's quite a few tunes in common with our current project, the "Roose" MS.